Black GSP

hoffmann35 · Post by **hoffmann35** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:01 pm

To all you GSP owners out there, tell me what you think of the German lineage of Black GSPs. Too high maintenance or just what you need to hunt with. I know their requirements for breeding GSPs in Germany are a bit tougher then here but I'm curious to hear your views. I've heard they can be a handful, maybe more than the U.S. bred shorthairs. But then again I am new to this.

Boomer · Post by **Boomer** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:04 pm

Humm, let me see.... Ther hard to see at night while coon hunting....

Ryan · Post by **Ryan** » Sun Jul 16, 2006 11:15 pm

If this is another DK vs GSP thread I started one about a year ago you could look up.

LSKGSPs · Post by **LSKGSPs** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:53 am

No desire to get involved in the politics etc of black GSPs.........But I would like to find a quality solid black GSP pup to buy. I'd have to stay away from hunting in the dark, but I think the daylight hours would make up for it.

hoffmann35 · Post by **hoffmann35** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:39 am

This isnt the DK vs GSP thing, just heard they could be a little tougher to train and a bit more bullheaded...

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:08 am

Never have heard where color made a dog any different than the rest of them. It's just a pigment in the skin and hair. That color has been there for many years. just wasn't included when the standard was written in this country.

Ezzy

Texrab · Post by **Texrab** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:30 am

There is a guy on here that has a solid black DK which is one of the nicer dogs I've seen in person (Tested NA NAVHDA Prize 1 112 at 4.5 months). You may try and PM him. He goes by cumberland on this site. I don't know if it is the trainer or the dog (more than likely both) but seeing his dog made me decide on getting a DK. Dixi, my black ticked DK, is a hand full but I don't see her being bullheaded. She has been great and I'm very happy with her.

cumberland · Post by **cumberland** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:04 am

Below is a couple of pictures of my solid black DK who is also AKC registered. I have to agree with Ezzy that the black is just a coloration and doesn't affect performance other than he is a little more heat sensitive, but I think that has more to do with the density and harshness of his coat.

A couple of comments. I have not found a DK or German bred dog to be any more stubborn than any other breed of dog. Harley has been very natural, and relatively easy to train. The only issues we have had have been with FF, and that was my fault. Toned down the pressure a tad and got reat results. Also, if you want a black DK/GSP, I advise being very selective about which breedings you look at. There are some "performance" breeding that are producing black and some other breedings that are also producing black.

I'll answer more detailed questions via PM if anyone has them.

snips · Post by **snips** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:28 am

My biggest problem is a black in the southern heat. Had one to train in the summer and he panted so bad he just could not smell birds. Had a b/w EP in the kennel same summer and had the same problem, that black head. Personally I prefer the b/w ticked, as a solid black looks like a Lab to me. JMO.

cumberland · Post by **cumberland** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:37 am

The "Is that a lab" question is pretty common, something to prepare for if you get a solid black.

I agree about black and the heat, not being the best combination. On the flip side though, very good cold tolerance for a short coated pointer.

SteveB · Post by **SteveB** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:49 am

hoffmann35 wrote:This isnt the DK vs GSP thing, just heard they could be a little tougher to train and a bit more bullheaded...

You heard right. The GSP is much more bull headed than a DK

Steve

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:36 am

Blacks and heat don't seem to go well together. As Brenda said, they pant more and I think tend to over run their noses. On the flip side, I have a Black Mould (ticked and patched) in Texas that has conditioned well to the heat, according to the owner, and finds birds when other dogs are not. I had tried to persuade them to look at another pup, but they were set on this particuliar bitch and her personality as I had described her to them. They are very happy with her, but I would still dicourage you from a Black GSP/DK in areas of oppressive heat during hunting season.

As for the myth of them being "difficult".... I am going to guess that has been started to dissuade members of the GSPCA from voting to permit them in the Standard. I can't say that is fact, but it has been my observation in many heated BB topics I've participated in concerning the Blacks and permitting them in the standard, that their "difficulty" is thrown out there as the only reason left to not permit them in the standard.

As Cumberland mentioned, PM me and I will be happy to answer any and all questions concerning the Black Dogs.

Here is a pic of one of mine.

cumberland · Post by **cumberland** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:43 am

Hey Bruce, how is it going? don't know if you remember us from the AVC NAVHDA test?

Travis

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:04 pm

Good to hear from you Travis. I remember you and Harley well. I still get a kick out of the comments about running a pup with no teeth in NA! Have you or will you be running him through his UT this year? Will you be at the Fall Test at Appalachian this year? I will most likely hit the Appalachian Test again this Fall with one of my Black Moulds that my Wife Jen decided to keep and is training and will handle and Dalin, the pup I got through Brenda. Hope we will see you there, I really enjoy that group of folks!

cumberland · Post by **cumberland** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:08 pm

I am running Harley in UT or UPT on Friday the 20th at AVC, and our new pup in NA on Saturday. Don't know if you have your entries in yet, but the test is pretty full, seems like we are a popular chapter to test with. I'd give the test secretary a call and see if he has any openings.

Thanks for the compliments!

Travis

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:21 pm

As for the myth of them being "difficult".... I am going to guess that has been started to dissuade members of the GSPCA from voting to permit them in the Standard. I can't say that is fact, but it has been my observation in many heated BB topics I've participated in concerning the Blacks and permitting them in the standard, that their "difficulty" is thrown out there as the only reason left to not permit them in the standard.

i really don't think anyone is interested in rehashing that DK vs. GSP, DK sharpness argument. however, bruce, the sharpness issue predates the "GSPCA voting on black" issue by some decades, and has nothing whatsoever to do with the color of the dog's coat. it happens that since black has not been an approved AKC GSP coat color in the US, the source of the black coated dogs is primarily sharpness tested German breeding.

here is a debate on the sharpness issue from 2004. http://www.shorthairs.net/phpBB2/viewto ... 06&start=0

the voting debate was, of course, this year.

Kurzhaar · Post by **Kurzhaar** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 1:01 pm

hoffmann35 wrote:To all you GSP owners out there, tell me what you think of the German lineage of Black GSPs. Too high maintenance or just what you need to hunt with. I know their requirements for breeding GSPs in Germany are a bit tougher then here but I'm curious to hear your views. I've heard they can be a handful, maybe more than the U.S. bred shorthairs. But then again I am new to this.

I'll take a stab at your questions.

1) I like the German dog and don't let color be an issue. Right now I have two Braunschimmel (liver ticked) DKs and two Schwarzschimmel DKs (Black ticked). Personally, I don't sell color when I have my occasional litters.

2) My line of dogs is not "high maintenance", but I can find ones out there that are.

3) Umm, there are no breeding requirements in the typical North American system so any requirements would be tougher.

Making broad generalizations about any breed variety of dogs is dangerous. As with any breed there can be individuals in a breed that are tougher or softer, no different with the "German bred" dogs or "American bred" dogs.

This is where it is essential to talk with your breeder about the type of dog you want, the type of hunting you do, and they type of training you are cabable of completing.

Jim[/quote]

hoffmann35 · Post by **hoffmann35** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 3:04 pm

Thanks Kurzharr. I wasn't trying to start a debate here. I just read a post somewhere else that said the Black GSP's could be like I said. I'm just trying to get some answers here because I have the opportunity to get one. I guess it must just be a myth. I don't think heat will be much of a problem since I live in Central Illinois. Well maybe for early season dove fetching... If I ever hit those "bleep" things.

Sorry if I inadvertently steered this topic in the wrong direction guys and gals.

ohiogsp · Post by **ohiogsp** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 4:28 pm

You are just asking a question, no need to apologize, you don't know what has went on this year with the black gsp debate. It has got way out of control on some boards.

hoffmann35 · Post by **hoffmann35** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 4:41 pm

Thanks for clearing that up Ohio... Didn't realize i was hitting nerves i guess.

LSKGSPs · Post by **LSKGSPs** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:00 pm

Guess I will continue to admire from afar.....a black dog is 100 degree plus heat just would not be a good thing. But they sure are super eye candy. Best wishes for many great hunts to all you guys and gals that have one.

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:53 pm

ohiogsp wrote:You are just asking a question, no need to apologize, you don't know what has went on this year with the black gsp debate. It has got way out of control on some boards.

What he said!

No apologies required!

honeyrun · Post by **honeyrun** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:49 am

Hoffman35,

There are bloodlines that are well known for being very hard to work with, but with a stern hand they make excellent dogs. The bloodlines will produce black but also produce liver, so your question really isn't color oriented but more bloodline oriented.

Do not group all black GSPs into one group unless it is by color only. We do not want to go down that path.

markj · Post by **markj** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:08 am

The pup I have now is black, he is very trainable and learns fast. Cant say how every black dog is tho. Look here for some german litters and the colors they produce.:

http://www.deutsch-kurzhaar.de/

SteveB · Post by **SteveB** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:53 am

How much hotter is a black dog going to get than a dark liver dog?
Steve

snips · Post by **snips** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 12:13 pm

Alot.

SteveB · Post by **SteveB** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 12:25 pm

Thanks

hoffmann35 · Post by **hoffmann35** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:39 pm

Thanks for the reply Honeyrun. I was wanting to know about bloodlines, aggressiveness and trainabillity. Thanks for the info.

Peak · Post by **Peak** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:12 pm

I have a solid black dk. like every one has said it is all in the breeding not in the color or even where they come from. my pup is 6 months old. she has been all but stubborn. most natural retrieve i have ever seen in any of my dogs. the sire is listed on the dk website a couple times under pups for sale (rocky von neuarenburg).

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:41 pm

honeyrun wrote:Hoffman35,
Do not group all black GSPs into one group unless it is by color only. We do not want to go down that path.

Uhhhh, that sounds like a recent coversation(?) elsewhere! Got a good chuckle from that Cindy! Thanx.

Kurzhaar · Post by **Kurzhaar** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:00 pm

AHGSP wrote:
honeyrun wrote:Hoffman35,
Do not group all black GSPs into one group unless it is by color only. We do not want to go down that path.
Uhhhh, that sounds like a recent coversation(?) elsewhere! Got a good chuckle from that Cindy! Thanx.

Yep, so far this is a CR-free zone. I'd like it to stay that way.

Jim

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:13 pm

Kurzhaar wrote:
AHGSP wrote:
honeyrun wrote:Hoffman35,
Do not group all black GSPs into one group unless it is by color only. We do not want to go down that path.
Uhhhh, that sounds like a recent coversation(?) elsewhere! Got a good chuckle from that Cindy! Thanx.
Yep, so far this is a CR-free zone. I'd like it to stay that way.

Jim

Maverick's House · Post by **Maverick's House** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:46 pm

snips wrote:My biggest problem is a black in the southern heat. Had one to train in the summer and he panted so bad he just could not smell birds. Had a b/w EP in the kennel same summer and had the same problem, that black head. Personally I prefer the b/w ticked, as a solid black looks like a Lab to me. JMO.

But Brenda......doesn't a "Solid Liver look like a Chocolate Lab"...?

snips · Post by **snips** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:51 pm

Absolutly not :roll:

crittercontrol · Post by **crittercontrol** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:31 pm

Boy, you GSP folks are almost as nuts as us setter types! Emphisis on the "almost" of course.

I think they look fantastic!

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:06 am

The problem is when you live where it's hot that they look fantastic sitting under your air conditioner...

I'm a big fan of a white with patches and ticks. What can I say, I'm a practical kind of guy.

Best,

snips · Post by **snips** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:39 am

Mine lays on the ac vent, he is the only cool one in the room.

Breton13 · Post by **Breton13** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:56 am

NDBDHunter · Post by **NDBDHunter** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:56 am

CC Wrote

Boy, you GSP folks are almost as nuts as us setter types! Emphisis on the "almost" of course.

You ain't kiddin'

markj · Post by **markj** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:57 am

I just started retriving with my black ticked pup. He is a natural. Fetched the bird ball 4 times right to my hand, until my older dog came and started "stealing" that ball

had to put the others into the kennel for additional training. I use a small kids pool full of cold well water in the summer, they all take a dunking when ever they need a "timeout". Keeps them cool and happy. Winter he should do fine, but in heat like we had yesturday (100) that pool is valuable to them.

QCBirddogs · Post by **QCBirddogs** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 10:56 pm

When it comes to color and heat....the darker color dogs do not get hotter then the lighter ones to a great extent.

We did a test several years ago at trials and hunting. Taking temperatures at rest in the trailer, on the stake, prior to competing or release to hunt and after the run.

Bare in mind all these dogs were in top competition shape, trained in the same environment and acclimated to strenuous workouts.

There were some differences in temps, in alll colors. Some leaning to support the dark theories and some the other way.

It has been my experience that Southern heat has nothign to do with it either, as I have traveled and competed in most of the eastern seaboard states. Now residing in Oklahoma where its been 110 in the shade for the last week or so, all dogs are reacting in the same manner.

The begining of our bird season here is very warm, we start conditioning our dogs in early mornings and slowly work them up to mid day temps. Most react similarly, the few that differ, I woudl tend to lean towards gentics before color for the reason. We have DK's and GSP's (white & liver ticked ticked to solid blacks) of our own that the genetics I am sure of, and clients dogs of several different breeds of which I cant speak for.

In regards to the DK being a harder headed dog that the GSP. I dont agree. I have worked with hundreds of dogs.....admittedly, the hardest headed one in the GSP/DK family was a DK....but that doesnt mean all are that way. The hardest headed out of them all was an English Pointer, runner up was a Setter!

I dont think you could actually "lable" a breed, as a whole, as hard headed, IMHO. With the vast gene pools available in all breeds.

Quiz your breeder....let them know the temperment you are looking for.

Phil

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 11:30 pm

I have not done any study but I have ran Liver dogs and White dogs on the same day same time and same conditions. I really can't see a big difference.
But everything points that the dogs with the darker coat should heat up faster.
I also think if you are worried about the heat with the dogs, you should not have them out in it working! White, Black or Purple.

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