Seizures while training

[hi-tailyn]

I have a friend that has a setter that while training 2 months ago had a seizure when he made a correction with the TT e-collar on 2 low. Seizure lasted a minute or so. He associated it to the dog was hot. Dog has been in training for several months, and was collar conditioned.

Had another one this week while in ND where it 64 degrees. Dog is in shape and with in 5 minutes of free running on birds the dog made a error on birds and was chasing. They again used the TT e-collar on 2 low and the setter went into a 4 minute seizure. Took to vet and did whole panel of blood work and everything came back normal.

Anyone ever have a dog into a seizure when using a e-collar?

[Sharon]

Never. I think there is more to this story. An e collar does not produce amperage.

[hi-tailyn]

This person has trained lots of dogs, and is stumped by this dog. Was expecting to see somthing out of wack from vet blood work.
Looking to see if something outside the box. If someone has any ideas.

[AzDoggin]

Yikes.

Bloodwork will not identify a seizure disorder (unless, I suppose, it's due to fighting off some other illness...). Seizure disorders are abnormal structures/electrical paths in the brain.

If that is indeed the problem, the seizures will recur over time - probably in response to some other stressor.

Sorry to hear this. They sometimes can be controlled...

Here's a fairly balanced article.. http://pets.webmd.com/dogs/dog-seizure-disorders

[Mountaineer]

Blood work will not always indentify the reason of a seizure...timing is important re those tests.
Blood work may indicate an illness with seizures as a component.

Seizures may come from an injury undetected or an environmental/injestion issue or....????.
I would not rule out any stimulation but I would also contact a vet(s) and proceed as they advise.
Seizure importance is often related to the duration, degree and frequency of the episode.
Meds may only dull the dog....heres hoping the issue does not rise to that need.

I have been around 4 dogs with seizure issues...2 were my own.
Good luck.

[Cajun Casey]

Epilepsy is a problem in English setters of all field and bench lines. However, if you want out of the box, I would suggest a chiropractor.

[shags]

Stop using the ecollar and see if the seizures recur. If they don't, you have your answer. If they occur again, you know you need to look further.

If it were my dog, I'd have his thyroid levels checked. Any results low to low normal, I'd find a vet who would try supplemental thyroid meds.

[hi-tailyn]

Is this something that a vet should know if the blood workup will show anything.

Or is this just a starting point.

Should a vet have a few ideas of what would cause these? Genetics, brain problems, ?

[shags]

A lot of time bloodwork is done to rule out certain things, rather than to find something specific. Sometimes clients get upset when they pay for tests that 'don't show anything'...but those tests have told the vet that the problem is not infection, not liver disease, not a kidney issue, etc. That is valuable information.

Myriad causes of seizure disorders. IME finding the cause depends mostly on how much clients are willing to spend on testing. Sometimes no cause is ever found. I'd hope a vet would have an idea of what can cause seizures in a general sense, but I think it's very unrealistic to expect a vet to look at an otherwise healthy-appearing dog after the fact and be able to give a definitive answer.

[seacowboy]

Has he checked the collar to make sure that its working properly on himself?

[AzDoggin]

Epilepsy is a problem in English setters of all field and bench lines. However, if you want out of the box, I would suggest a chiropractor.

How common? You have any incidence rates?

[TAK]

Some years back I had a dog that did some of the same things. However it was not when I used a e collar. However he would just pass out. Vets have a name for it and it passes me at this time but the dog would be running along and just pass out. Then would go into a seizure with running in place, stiffining of legs and then come out and be very disorented. i had about every test there is possible done on the dog....$$$$$ very costly and the closest that they came up with was that it was a 2nd degree heart block. This is explained to me as the electrical current that is sent to the heart from the brain was not sending the right information. So if the dog was at full run and the brain sent a signal that the dog was at rest the heart would slow the beats. This causing less blood to the brain. Yes causing the dog to just seiz. What caused this? That is the million dollar question... I do have my opinions but it is just that from what i have researchd. Sad i did have to put the dog down... I wish you luck.

I have a friend that has a setter that while training 2 months ago had a seizure when he made a correction with the TT e-collar on 2 low. Seizure lasted a minute or so. He associated it to the dog was hot. Dog has been in training for several months, and was collar conditioned.

Had another one this week while in ND where it 64 degrees. Dog is in shape and with in 5 minutes of free running on birds the dog made a error on birds and was chasing. They again used the TT e-collar on 2 low and the setter went into a 4 minute seizure. Took to vet and did whole panel of blood work and everything came back normal.

Anyone ever have a dog into a seizure when using a e-collar?

[TAK]

Very good information!!!!

Yikes.

Bloodwork will not identify a seizure disorder (unless, I suppose, it's due to fighting off some other illness...). Seizure disorders are abnormal structures/electrical paths in the brain.

If that is indeed the problem, the seizures will recur over time - probably in response to some other stressor.

Sorry to hear this. They sometimes can be controlled...

Here's a fairly balanced article.. http://pets.webmd.com/dogs/dog-seizure-disorders

[hi-tailyn]

Has he checked the collar to make sure that its working properly on himself?

Has had this collar for a while and uses it on several other soft dogs and he is very controled in his use of collar.

Epilepsy is a problem in English setters of all field and bench lines. However, if you want out of the box, I would suggest a chiropractor.

How common? You have any incidence rates?

This is a very nice bred setter that has been doing well in training and on birds.

[ACooper]

Seizures can be stress induced maybe the correction produces enough stress to at times trigger the seizure.

I am sure the dog gets several corrections with the e collar with no visible effect?

[snips]

I was working a Shorthair for someone once that would work 2 birds, then seiz. It happened the same each time, like at that point he would get to the level of excitement that triggered it..Sent the dog home for testing and he lives now on Phyno...

[mountaindogs]

Epilepsy is very hard to find a true cause. It is usually triggered by stress or excitment though.
You could do a fasting glucose curve to rule out blood sugar drops but it does not sound like that. Most blood sugar issues in the field have some staggering or trembling and disotientation before the seizure.

[BigTub]

They basically rule everything else out then decide to treat for epilepsy with the little pink pills (Phenobarbital). My third Britt was sold to me apparantly with the problem. Kind of hard to give him back when the kennel owners says he will just put the dog down. Hindsight for me: we should have given him back. That poor dog saved up 8 months (and becoming more attached) worth of seizures into one grand mal that lasted 20 minutes and his temperature went to 108F. It was horrible. I could not stay in the ER Vet office as my wife followed up with having him put down.

[Francois P vd Walt]

+1 Sharon.

IMO opinion doga seiz when they hit a limit, either very excited, very hot, very tired or under pressure.

This should not be the collar, and finding the answer is not easy, could be blood sugar. Some guys carry bit of honey and give it to the dog at stages while hunting ....

Good luck

[hi-tailyn]

Hearing privately from others that Hypoglycemia could be at the base of the seizures. Since they are random and only after running for awhile.

One said feeding and putting a little more weight on the dog helped reduce chances of reoccurring. Also giving something sweet before running would prevent the problem. Split feeding schedule could help.

What I'm not sure is this a genetic thing, or a dog that is under nourished and with the extra excitement of running and birds triggers it to have a seizure.

[dan v]

We have a diabetic dog, so we have a glucometer. You could do a lip prick and see what the blood sugar level is during the seizure.

[ranmcc]

I had a young two year old pointer that after I hunted him a couple of hours his eyes would get glazed over and he would get stiff legged and fall out, but never had a seizure. I was feeding WalMart dog food at the time. Switched to a quality high protein dog food and never had a problem with him again.

[Munster]

I was thinking low sugar, but was beat to it.

This canhappen to any dog. So in my pack I carry honey packs and some of that nasty diabetic gel you buy at wal-mart. Luckly havent had to use it.

[DogNewbie]

I'm no doctor or vet but the first thing that popped into my head was epilepsy. I have a buddy with mild epilepsy and the few times he has seized it was due to external stresses like a bright flickering florescent light. Seems logical that a mild shock could trigger an episode if the dog is epileptic.

[KwikIrish]

In my opinion, you can almost rule out low blood sugar. Look a what the op is saying, this doesn't happen randomly while running, but when dog is stimulated via collar. This screams "stimulus enduced" seizures.

Ive endured a lot of epilepsy cases, one of which a similar situation to this, being stimulus enduced.
I would do as shags recommended, Try dog without e collar. If you can continue dogs training sans collar, you may be able to avoid continued incidence.

It is in my expierence that all forms of epilepsy in dogs will become evident with time. Even those who are stimulus enduced will eventually seize regardless of stimulus as they age. They become more prone to stimulus of any type with age. This could take 3 months or 7 years to become evident. I've medicated with everything from phenobarbital to Potassium bromide. All of the epileptics I have known were great pets and animals, but were unable to be maintained into any real decent age (read beyond 7-8).

I hope the best for this dog and beyond that, I strongly encourage you to inform breeder and owners of litermates of this issue immediatly as so they can make the proper choices regarding the perpetuation of that line of dogs in regards to genetics.

[hi-tailyn]

Going to try roading mid morning. Giving small portion of food early in the morning.

No e collar training, will see if stress of running and fatigue are a factor.

Trying to eliminate any of the simple factors.

[brad27]

If you're trying to find out if it is blood sugar related I wouldn't feed anything before running the dog in the morning. If something happens, run it the next day, but this time feed ( or better yet use one of those liquid recover drinks) before hand. If nothing happens the second day after you fed, then you've isolated the cause.

[kninebirddog]

http://www.canine-epilepsy.com/Graves.html

I have seen a few dogs that have seizures which there really turned out to be no rhyme or reason to what triggered the dog to have them

the vet labeled it as Idiopathic Seizures as they were to random and lack of a real trigger causing the episodes.