In your opinion, are trials a true gauge of...

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:11 pm

... a dog's worth as a birddog? Meaning, do you think a great trial dog equals a great birddog and visa-versa? Do you think it's okay for someone to breed specifically for dogs that will win trials without any regard for how they will be as hunting dogs?

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:04 pm

Hold on for a second when I get the popcorn. :roll:

Ghosted3 · Post by **Ghosted3** » Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:45 pm

I am gonna climb out on a limb here and say you are gonna get some 50/50 answers and then arguments about the answers.

Corry

twofeathers · Post by **twofeathers** » Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:50 pm

I will wager 30 posts before its locked any takers?

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:56 pm

I'll say it dies in twenty or less or he's selling something.

Nick Miles · Post by **Nick Miles** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:33 am

nikegundog wrote:Hold on for a second when I get the popcorn. :roll:

What he said. I'm not even going to answer... but I want to watch.

Mountaineer · Post by **Mountaineer** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:46 am

Obviously depends on who is performing the evaluation.

Kmack · Post by **Kmack** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:49 am

Yes, the key is to find the venue which highlights the qualities you are looking for in a birddog. If you can't find a venue in which your type of dog is competitive, it probably means that, although your dog might well be a good birddog, it is not among the best. There are lots of good birddogs that don't win, otherwise the owners would not pay the entry fee.

Johng918 · Post by **Johng918** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 5:22 am

If I beat Kevin Van Dam fishing a stocked pond does that make a better fisherman?

GrayDawg · Post by **GrayDawg** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:06 am

If I was looking for a Grouse dog to hunt New England covers with, the first place I'd go would be to watch
a local Cover Dog trial or even the Grand National Grouse Championships held in either MI, NY, PA or NH
(the location rotates every year).

At such a trial, I would find the "who's who" of top Cover Dog contenders & handlers, even if I wasn't able to get a pup
from one of the contestants running, chances are- the folks there would be able to provide me a plethora of people
to run down in hopes of finding a pup well suited to find/stick Grouse in thick cover.

So to answer your question- field trials are a great place to start. but one needs to match the right trial with
the type of hunting they intend to do. I wouldn't go to a cover dog trial to find a pup if I lived in MT and planned
to hunt Sharpies off of horseback. Instead, I would go to watch a Shooting Dog Horseback stake on the prairies.

A Porche is a nice car- but I wouldn't take it four-wheelin'. Conversely, I wouldn't use that same Porsche as the vehicle
to take my family on a cross-country vacation. But if I was heading up to a track on a Friday night to run some 1/4 miles
with my friends....... I'd want the Porshe!

All depends on what you plan to hunt- and in what terrain...... then pick the appropriate field trial and go watch the dogs yourself
and talk to folks who have been around the block one or two times.... Most folks are willing to help and will point you in the right
direction.

It sure beats taking Bubba's word for it down at the hunting club, that the pups out of his bitch are "good'uns". :roll:

Rob

bb560m · Post by **bb560m** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:27 am

I think the other way around. The dogs that have drive and can run and are put on a lot of wild birds early are the best trial dogs. They're the ones that will go out and find birds every time in any condition because they know where to look and how to hunt the cover.

rinker · Post by **rinker** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:52 am

I am a foot bird hunter. I take a week long trip each year grouse hunting. I occasionally get access to some local ground that has a few wild bobwhites. I also work my dogs on throw down birds at a couple of clubs that I belong to. I have ran in a few weekend walking trials, and I may do some more in the future. I have owned a lot of dogs over the years and early on I avoided field trial lines, because I believed what I heard about trial dogs being 'hard headed run offs'. I can now say with some certainty that I will never own another dog that isn't directly out of, or close up to, winning horseback all age dogs.

I am going to the North Woods in about a month to grouse hunt. I will be taking four English Pointers with me, and all four are directly out of sires that are major circuit all age champions, with prairie all age wins. I am not at all concerned about them handling in the woods, and being able to handle grouse.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:57 am

YES...trial dogs can be VERY good hunting dogs. BUT (and here is where my OPINION starts, to which I hopefully am entitled), it doesn't guarantee a great bird dog...can't guarantee genetic superiority...and demands selectivity like any other format. If you hunt on foot, as most do, trial dogs at foot hunting range will not outperform excellent dogs from non-trialing kennels. Breeders make dogs/breeding decieions and there are many breeders who don't trial who recognize and desire the abilities that make a good dog. IMO...you don't buy a "format"....you "buy" a breeder that has your prioriies and can make the hard choices.

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:08 am

Field trials are a great gauge of a caliber of a sire or dam. Yep, always going to get a pup from a wild bird field trial line. But that is only the beginning. I want a dog that can hunt all day without quitting, a bird finder with commitment to every task put before them, smarts, and run that won't quit to find the birds in big country. They gotta have strong desire to point and hold 'til I get there. I want them easy to train, which is where intelligence comes in. They have to have heart and toughness without end. Same thing field trialers are looking for in a champion. I think I've got what I want right now.

Steve

cmc274 · Post by **cmc274** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:15 am

Sometimes when you go trolling, you catch something.

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:29 am

Do you think it's okay for someone to breed specifically for dogs that will win trials without any regard for how they will be as hunting dogs?

Yes, it's a free country. If you don't like it don't buy it.

I don't understand why people always try and separate the two. :roll:

LBH · Post by **LBH** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:36 am

Before this turns into a Hunting dog vs. Trial Dog vs. Hunting/Trial dog..the OP asked if trials actually tested a dogs worth as a BIRD DOG...I don't know how anyone would argue that wild bird trials don't do that. A trial with liberated birds is questionable because it's obviously an entirely different game, but judges still look at how the dog applies himself to the terrain and that is key to finding wild birds when hunting. If you just hunt your dog you have no room to talk about trialing, if you just trial your dog you have no room to talk about hunting dogs. If you do both, you probably have a lot of ribbons on your wall and birds in the bag. I think proving your dog on wild birds with a shotgun in your hand AND proving him at a trial on horseback is the best way to test the dogs worthiness as a BIRD DOG. That is my opinion, I'm young and pretty green in the sport.

cmc274 · Post by **cmc274** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:42 am

Rapidan, who won the Saskatchewan championship, had three finds, two more than any competitor, pretty sure he ran in the heat of the day too, sounds like a bird dog and one I wouldnt mind taking hunting on opening day.

LBH · Post by **LBH** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:45 am

cmc274 wrote:Rapidan, who won the Saskatchewan championship, had three finds, two more than any competitor, pretty sure he ran in the heat of the day too, sounds like a bird dog and one I would mind taking hunting on opening day.

"Like"

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:47 am

IMO you can get a quality hunting dog from any of the proformance venues. Field trial ,NAVHDA, NSTRA and so on.

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:16 am

A good hunting dog is one that makes your days in the field more enjoyable not more stressful. Can't speak to whether or not trial dogs can achieve that. I've never hunted with one. Same can be said for hunting buddies. I wonder if trailers can make good hunting buddies

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:54 am

A dog that is run in trials, or tests and is successful has demonstrated that it has the tools to do what is necessary to succed in that particular venue. Progeny from dogs that are successful in a given venue can be reasonably expected to have most of the same tools.

A key part of this is that the dog has demonstrated their abilities to the public at large in front of an audience and in the opinion of folks who have no financial or other vested interest in the dog. There is some level of assurance, with third party judicial opinions, that it is not just a sales pitch.

If a dog demonstrates it has all the tools you need in a dog and that its progeny do as well, it is still up to the owner/trainer how best to use those tools.

RayG

jimbo&rooster · Post by **jimbo&rooster** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:29 am

My short answer is YES. Field trials give you a general idea, of what basic attributes a dog has. It is up to the owner trainer to mold their pupil. What I gather from a good FT dog is that it will be athletic, biddable, and have at least some common sence. It would evn be my assumption that it could find birds.

Those are all things I expeect from a bird dog.

In my experience (limited as it may be) I would rater have an FT bred dog, than from several of the other venues that supposedly produce better hunting dogs.

Jim

trigger1989 · Post by **trigger1989** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:30 am

I'm no professional but I'd rather have no dog then a trial dog...

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:42 am

trigger1989 wrote:I'm no professional but I'd rather have no dog then a trial dog...

What's your dog's pedigree?

LBH · Post by **LBH** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:55 am

trigger1989 wrote:I'm no professional but I'd rather have no dog then a trial dog...

:roll:

Post by **topher40** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:21 pm

Tirgger-
Thats comes from someone whos boat cant hold water. Ignorance is bliss :roll:

LBH wrote:
trigger1989 wrote:I'm no professional but I'd rather have no dog then a trial dog...
I think that is the most uneducated thing I have read. Can I ask why?

Hookadooka BirdDogs · Post by **Hookadooka BirdDogs** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:09 pm

SCT wrote:Field trials are a great gauge of a caliber of a sire or dam. Yep, always going to get a pup from a wild bird field trial line. But that is only the beginning. I want a dog that can hunt all day without quitting, a bird finder with commitment to every task put before them, smarts, and run that won't quit to find the birds in big country. They gotta have strong desire to point and hold 'til I get there. I want them easy to train, which is where intelligence comes in. They have to have heart and toughness without end. Same thing field trialers are looking for in a champion. I think I've got what I want right now.

Steve

You're describing my Llewellyn setter to a T.

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:34 pm

trigger1989 wrote:I'm no professional but I'd rather have no dog then a trial dog...

Get a good bred trial dog then maybe ya can take that check cord off soon!

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:37 pm

No, trials are not a true gauge of a hunting dog. IMO, that is just common sense, trials are a true gauge of a trial dog. The only true gauge of a hunting dog is a dog that is hunted often on wild birds. However, trials are great games and I believe most, if not all, good trial dogs would be or are good hunting dogs. I also believe that trials have improved the quality of dogs and breeding over the years. I hope nobody misunderstands me here [although from past experience somebody will

] I am only trying to answer the question of the true gauge of a hunting dog and the only way to do that is to take that dog hunting! And just so everybody knows, my hunting dogs have always come out of either field trial or testing lines.

Charlie

3Britts · Post by **3Britts** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:43 pm

I noticed that all of those who are truely answering the opening question do not have hunting dogs. Only nike and I are qualified to answer this question as we both have true hunting dogs that can trial. Go Team Brittany!!!

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:58 pm

3Britts wrote:I noticed that all of those who are truely answering the opening question do not have hunting dogs. Only nike and I are qualified to answer this question as we both have true hunting dogs that can trial. Go Team Brittany!!!

Sorry, I wasn't aware that you knew me and my dogs and what venues we participate in.

Charlie

Johng918 · Post by **Johng918** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:02 pm

Stoneface wrote:... a dog's worth as a birddog? Meaning, do you think a great trial dog equals a great birddog and visa-versa? Do you think it's okay for someone to breed specifically for dogs that will win trials without any regard for how they will be as hunting dogs?

I would never gauge a dogs worth as a bird dog by how they hunt or do in trials I enter mine in Spelling Bee's.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:17 pm

Johng918 wrote:
Stoneface wrote:... a dog's worth as a birddog? Meaning, do you think a great trial dog equals a great birddog and visa-versa? Do you think it's okay for someone to breed specifically for dogs that will win trials without any regard for how they will be as hunting dogs?
I would never gauge a dogs worth as a bird dog by how they hunt or do in trials I enter mine in Spelling Bee's.

Very good!

Charlie

Kmack · Post by **Kmack** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:46 pm

3Britts wrote:I noticed that all of those who are truely answering the opening question do not have hunting dogs. Only nike and I are qualified to answer this question as we both have true hunting dogs that can trial. Go Team Brittany!!!

Can you lead me to the page where this information resides? It needs to be updated with some accurate data.

wems2371 · Post by **wems2371** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:49 pm

birddogger wrote:No, trials are not a true gauge of a hunting dog. IMO, that is just common sense, trials are a true gauge of a trial dog. The only true gauge of a hunting dog is a dog that is hunted often on wild birds. However, trials are great games and I believe most, if not all, good trial dogs would be or are good hunting dogs. I also believe that trials have improved the quality of dogs and breeding over the years. I hope nobody misunderstands me here [although from past experience somebody will ] I am only trying to answer the question of the true gauge of a hunting dog and the only way to do that is to take that dog hunting! And just so everybody knows, my hunting dogs have always come out of either field trial or testing lines.

Charlie

I like your answer.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:20 pm

3Britts wrote:I noticed that all of those who are truely answering the opening question do not have hunting dogs. Only nike and I are qualified to answer this question as we both have true hunting dogs that can trial. Go Team Brittany!!!

It's a springer, I believe.

bb560m · Post by **bb560m** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:48 pm

3Britts wrote:I noticed that all of those who are truely answering the opening question do not have hunting dogs. Only nike and I are qualified to answer this question as we both have true hunting dogs that can trial. Go Team Brittany!!!

I suppose if you like a little groundhog to run over birds a Brittany would suffice.

3Britts · Post by **3Britts** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:49 pm

I don't have to know what type of dog or venues you do, Brittanys rule.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 5:07 pm

I guess living in your own little world can have it's benefits.

Charlie

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 5:10 pm

birddogger wrote:I guess living in your own little world can have it's benefits.

Charlie

But what does it have to do with the original quetion?

Charlie

jimbo&rooster · Post by **jimbo&rooster** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:23 pm

3Britts wrote:I don't have to know what type of dog or venues you do, Brittanys rule.

Pretty sure Nike owns a springer......

Jim

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:55 pm

jimbo&rooster wrote:
3Britts wrote:I don't have to know what type of dog or venues you do, Brittanys rule.

Pretty sure Nike owns a springer......

Jim

Is there really a difference between a britt and a springer?

Post by **Sharon** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:15 pm

nikegundog wrote:Hold on for a second when I get the popcorn. :roll:

LOL

Some trial rules do not showcase a good hunting dog. I remember once when my dog was on point , and before I could get to her the covey flew over her head and down into the bushes behind her. She relocated herself. She was of course eliminated . If that had been a hunting situation I would have wanted her to relocate herself.

I .ve seen some amazing dogs place at trials. I have a high regard for them and would be pleased to hunt over any of them.

BigShooter · Post by **BigShooter** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:51 pm

For the OP : If you mean a great field trial dog is one that wins field trials against its peers, please define what a great birddog is and how it can be compared to its peers. It's difficult to measure a known entity against an unknown.

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:01 pm

3Britts wrote:I noticed that all of those who are truely answering the opening question do not have hunting dogs. Only nike and I are qualified to answer this question as we both have true hunting dogs that can trial. Go Team Brittany!!!

Well he is a spaniel with bad teeth and he smells bad most of the time.

jimbo&rooster · Post by **jimbo&rooster** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:01 pm

[quote="ACooper

Is there really a difference between a britt and a springer?[/quote]

Im pretty sure its like the diffrence between a lab and a pointing lab...... Its all in the details

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:51 pm

jimbo&rooster wrote:[quote="ACooper

Is there really a difference between a britt and a springer?

Im pretty sure its like the diffrence between a lab and a pointing lab...... Its all in the details[/quote]

I think what you are trying to say is Britts in general have about as much point as a pointing lab? I'm just reading between the lines here.

jimbo&rooster · Post by **jimbo&rooster** » Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:56 pm

ACooper wrote:
jimbo&rooster wrote:
ACooper wrote:
Is there really a difference between a britt and a springer?

Im pretty sure its like the diffrence between a lab and a pointing lab...... Its all in the details

I think what you are trying to say is Britts in general have about as much point as a pointing lab? I'm just reading between the lines here.

happy you and I are on the same page.

Jim

3Britts · Post by **3Britts** » Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:10 am

Let's see. Shorthairs tend to orver run game, chew downed bird, and generally have noses that mislead. Britts tend to find game at any range, have soft mouths, and know the difference between "bleep" and game birds. You can also keep them in the house.
As for the "little groundhog, crack, even my smalles britt, Summer, tends to out run Shorthairs, Setters, and EPs at trials.

Now back to the original question: Trials will show you the scope of the dog's run, its intensity, and something of its nose, but as has been mentioned before, it dogs do get DQ'd for relocating and other desirable hunting traits.