Buying my first hunting dog

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TheLukai1100
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Buying my first hunting dog

Post by TheLukai1100 » Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:00 am

I am looking to buy a Bird hunting dog in 2013 (I'm short on cash right now).
I have decided on getting a German short haired pointer or a English setter, maybe a English pointer
I have contacted many breeders but only a few emailed me back, so i think I'm going to buy one from the classifieds. I've been looking around and i get some that Claim "champion bloodlines"and some have titles to back them up but others just say "champion" or "hunting" bloodlines. should I take them for their word and just ask if they hunt with their dogs?

most of the ads are like this:
"AKC German Shorthaired Pointer Puppies for sale. Currently have 6 (2 males and 4 females). Well behaved, family friendly dogs. High energy, but easy to train. Will be ready mid-October."

If I got a dog from a ad like that would it make a good hunting dog?

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Re: Buying my first hunting dog

Post by jimbo&rooster » Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:35 am

Far be it for me to tell anyone where to buy a puppy, but I have seen decent dogs come from, the sale add and I have seen junk come from the sale adds.

As far as taking someones word for whether or not they hunt their dogs, that is your call, but I would at least ask for refrences of people who have hunted over the dogs.

I am very leary when I see an add in the classifieds that lables dogs as "champion bloodlines" or "good hunting lines" My thought is if they were that good they wouldn't be selling them in the classifieds, unless you live in an area that has alot of bird dogs. Also when someone lists a litter as champion bred you could get pups from FC/AFC parents on down to "well his Great grand sire won a chrity shoot down at gomers game preserve in the 80's".

Without going through a reputable breeder or at least doing your homework it is a crap shoot at best when your looking at pups. Of course even breeders throw a knuckle ball once in a while.

Any how sorry about my rant, to answer your question, it is quite possible to end up with a decent weekend hunting dog/pet from anywhere. You just may need to put a little more time into one with a questionable background.

jim
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Re: Buying my first hunting dog

Post by 3Britts » Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:38 am

The one word answer is, "maybe."
You can never tell how well a dog will hunt, no matter where you get it. Ask the breeder if you can some and see the Dam and or Sire in the field. Check out the dog online, if it has been trial it will show up somewhere. You should remember that "champion bloodlines" can simply mean that there is a titled dog somewhere in their five generaltion pedigree.
All of this doesn't mean that the dog will not turn out to be a good hunting or trial prospect. My older female, Tania, came from our local classifieds, from good hunting stock, had two titled dogs in here five generation pedigree and has turned out to be more than I had hoped for.
To put it simply, good dogs can come from unlikely sources and lame dogs can come from high powered lines. It is up to you to ask the questions that need to be asked and to do your homework.
Good luck

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Re: Buying my first hunting dog

Post by Bberry20 » Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:58 am

Where are you located? I would look for a reputable breeder and if you can go look at the sire and dam. You will really get a sense of what the pup will be like if you can do that.

TheLukai1100
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Re: Buying my first hunting dog

Post by TheLukai1100 » Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:14 am

I live in the State of Maine.

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Re: Buying my first hunting dog

Post by JKP » Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:25 am

After 50 years of working with dogs, I haven't found many that couldn't become decent working dogs. I have seen a few that I just plain didn't like owning because they were loud, yappy, sometimes destructive, etc. IMO, its the liveability issues that are more often the problem...and they often make it more difficult to train a dog. My suggestion....visit a few kennels and pick the one where the dogs are calm, friendly in the home/yard but get after it when it comes time to go hunting.
When you visit, look around...what you see may tell you more than what you hear.

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Re: Buying my first hunting dog

Post by hunterw/newhobby » Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:02 am

maybe is my opinion also, and this is coming from a guy who was in your same position when I bought my current bird dog. I bought my GSP from a backyard breeder and she does what I want her to do hunting wise but I do feel, after looking into it more, that I'm the exception rather than the rule. With today's dog market, if you do your homework, you should be able to get a nicely bred dog for relatively inexpensive. Call around to local kennels and visit them. Maybe work out a trade for a pup in exchange for elbow grease. Don't be afraid to ask because the people I have talked to in this industry have been very down to earth nice people. Hope this helps.
Ross

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Re: Buying my first hunting dog

Post by DogNewbie » Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:23 am

I found my pup on puppyfinder.com and after learning more and more about dogs and breeding I've decided that I got very lucky with my pup. I literally did zero research. All I knew was that the parents were used as guide dogs for pheasant and waterfowl (part time breeder in SD) and he had pictures of the dogs hunting on his website. I took the plunge and got lucky. That isn't to say the classifieds won't have some great hunting litters, I'm just saying if I were to do it again, I'd definitely want to see the parents in action first.

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Re: Buying my first hunting dog

Post by cjhills » Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:34 am

Most bird dogs are hardwired to hunt, some train easier and are more natural. The biggest advantage with a breeder is they should have a good idea of what to expect from the pup and support after the purchase.
If you can meet the parents it is a definite plus. Also ask questions and if you are not comfortable with the answers maybe you need to look somewhere else. We answer all e-mails.
In this age fancy web sites don't neccessarily mean good dogs.
I bought one of the best dogs I've had from a newspaper ad. CJ

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Re: Buying my first hunting dog

Post by reba » Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:42 am

I suggest buying a dog from a "Trainer" that raises some puppies.

Most Trainers will be more than happy to show off their dogs.

Go to dog shows and observe conformation, so you learn to spot uggly. Feet, tail set, top line, bite, hocks etc.

Save your money and get the best.

TheLukai1100
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Re: Buying my first hunting dog

Post by TheLukai1100 » Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:46 am

I am certainly going to visit the breeder to look at the dog before I buy the dog.
I am also willing to spend more money on a "better" dog. I saw a ad for a "NAVHDA"Registered litter.But they came at a prices $1000 for males $1200 for females,If i had the money (and the time) right now I would have already bought one or at least took a visit over there.

The ads are always coming and going so I hope in the spring time their are more "reputable" dog breeders posting ads. Which there tends to be more ads for dogs in the spring-early summer.

But I have another question: If I do end up buying from a Backyard breeder and get a dog that hunts poorly could I train it to hunt better?
I do plan on buying Pigeons or Quail to train the dog with.

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Re: Buying my first hunting dog

Post by ultracarry » Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:48 am

I'll always look in the pet store ;) but now I'm looking to breed my dog. I think it is easier to find a nice puppy if you go to competitions and hunt tests and look around and ask.

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DogNewbie
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Re: Buying my first hunting dog

Post by DogNewbie » Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:11 am

You can't train talent....You can train a talented dog to hunt for you instead of itself, but you can't train a dog with no talent to have talent. That's why genetics and pedigrees are so important to those people looking to compete in trials. If you want to have the best dog you have to have combine the best natural talent with the best training. That being said you don't need the most talented dog in the world to have a great hunting companion.

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Re: Buying my first hunting dog

Post by deseeker » Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:31 am

You might be able to get a good dog from the paper, but I think you will have better chances of getting a good dog by doing your homework--looking at pedigrees, looking at parents, looking at dogs at events. Don't be afraid of spending a little more on a better pup---the original price of a pup is a small percentage of the total cost of the dog over 10 or 12 years--food, vet bills, equipment, lics., registrations, shots, heartworm prevention, flea & tick stuff, etc. Since the price of the pup is small compared to the total costs over the years---you might as well go with your best chance of getting a good pup(IMO). Good luck in your search :)

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Re: Buying my first hunting dog

Post by quackerjack » Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:45 am

First and foremost, I would CALL the breeders that you are interested in. From talking to breeders, I was able to quickly rule out the ones that didn't work with my personality, goals, and hunting dog traits. From there talk to references that have gotten dogs from that breeder. This will help you decide if their lines produce the traits you want and need. If the references of the "ad" breeder are quality, I think you will be safe. But I would do your research so you get a quality pup or dog, even if that means you have to wait until 2014 or even later. CONFIDENCE in your decision goes a long way!
Peace, it's what's for dinner!

TheLukai1100
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Re: Buying my first hunting dog

Post by TheLukai1100 » Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:52 am

a few monthes ago back when there were more pointers for sale alot of the ads were like this one:

"Labrador retriever puppies 3 puppies left. Reserve your puppies early. 5 are already spoken for. Sire is AKC Black block head labrador retriever waterfowl & upland bird hunter, Mom: English Chocolate block head waterfowl bird hunter. My female is not AKC but her parents are AKC.Excellant hunting backgrounds Grandparents have won ribbion in field trials. Come with shots, worming, health certificate. Taking non/refundable security deposits of $250. now. Bred, for excellant temperments, hunting, family friendly. Puppies are raised indoors and taught house breaking. The puppies raised around children and socialized as well. Extremely healthy puppies, both parents are chemical free! 207-381-0348 ask for Lori. Nice Block heads! CASH ONLY."

(this example is Clearly for a lab but the old gsp ads were extremely similar)
Would you guys consider a dog from a Ad like this?

Another example is this Ad:
"FDSB Registered English Setter Pups whelped 8/20/12 Ready 10/16/12. Excellent hunting dogs & loyal companions. Sire & Dam Champion bloodlines including 6x Gun Dog of the Year, Paucek’s Rolling Rock, Grand Nat’l Grouse Champion Paucek’s Tommyknocker, Chs: Kalamity Cover Girl, Long Gone George & Long Gone Stokely. vet checked,1st shots & wormed. 4 females, 3 males. "

I really want to check those dogs out but I don't have the time to spend on them right now.

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Re: Buying my first hunting dog

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:55 am

Before the internet & before I started breeding my own dogs I bought a few dogs out of the newspaper.The first GSP I ever bought was from an AD in the paper,she was what some would call a meat dog.
I believe I bought 3 from the newspaper & never had a bad one in fact the second dog was from the same guy as my first & was sired by HOF FC Tip Top Savage Sam.He was as good as I ever owned,Unfortunately he died of unknown reasons when he was only 6 or 7 yrs old & I never got to breed to him.

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Re: Buying my first hunting dog

Post by High Voltage » Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:04 pm

You should check out the NAVHDA training day and talk with some folks there. Someone may know of a planned breeding, not all NAVHDA bred pups are $1,000.00 +. Another advantage is you will get to see some great dog work and meet some good people. Here is a link to the chapter locator http://www.navhda.us/chaptmap.html

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Re: Buying my first hunting dog

Post by Cajun Casey » Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:07 pm

Buy an older started dog from someone whose credentials you can check. If you don't even have a firm choice of breed, this could save you some money and headaches.
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.

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Re: Buying my first hunting dog

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:14 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:Buy an older started dog from someone whose credentials you can check. If you don't even have a firm choice of breed, this could save you some money and headaches.
This only saves you something if you would rather buy than produce a nice dog. Much of the fun in owning a nice dog is the fun or traininbg the pup into what you want.

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Re: Buying my first hunting dog

Post by rinker » Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:51 pm

"FDSB Registered English Setter Pups whelped 8/20/12 Ready 10/16/12. Excellent hunting dogs & loyal companions. Sire & Dam Champion bloodlines including 6x Gun Dog of the Year, Paucek’s Rolling Rock, Grand Nat’l Grouse Champion Paucek’s Tommyknocker, Chs: Kalamity Cover Girl, Long Gone George & Long Gone Stokely. vet checked,1st shots & wormed. 4 females, 3 males. "
There is some code in hunting dog ads. From reading this add, I would think that all of the dogs listed are at least a couple of generations back, maybe more. This is not necessarily good or bad, it is just the way it is. I might consider one of these puppies, but I would want to talk to the breeder and be comfortable with that conversation. I would want to at least see pictures of the sire and to see the dam.

A lot of people will tell you to see the sire and the dam. In my opinion, if the breeder owns both the sire and the dam, I immediately begin to wonder if he chose the sire just for convenience.

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Re: Buying my first hunting dog

Post by cjhills » Mon Sep 10, 2012 3:22 pm

We almost always go with a in house sire,either owned by us or trained and handled by us.Most litters have both parents and some Grand parents at our kennel We feel like this gives us a much better idea of what the dog is really like than if he has been trained and handled to a title of some sort by a pro trainer/handler. We buy most of our breeding stock as puppies going mostly by pedigree. Most don't pass our tests and are sold as companion/ hunting dogs.
Many good dog are not titled and many titled dogs are not great. It's all about circumstances. It would be much cheaper just to pay a Stud Fee and breed to the popular dog of the day. We don't like to go that way CJ

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Re: Buying my first hunting dog

Post by RoostersMom » Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:25 pm

If I were buying a pup and wanted to do it right the first time, here's what I'd do:
Join a NAVHDA or other hunting club at least 3-4 months BEFORE I thought about buying a pup
Go to a field trial or two (NSTRA or BHU for me) or a NAVDHA meet or hunt test
Meet the dogs I wanted to hunt over and then try to find one like that!


I did buy my first pointer after checking out a few NSTRA trials and riding along with the judges and seeing the dogs work. I liked both the parents of my dog and spent the money to get her - she is an awesome dog. I did similar with my Vizsla before choosing him (hunted over both his parents multiple times).

Anyway - just saying, don't go look at the breeders or puppies until you decide what you like (that's where trials/tests will expose you to a lot) or you might end up with an impulse purchase.

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Re: Buying my first hunting dog

Post by TheLukai1100 » Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:15 pm

I probably will buy a dog from a Ad.
Most breeders that i have contacted are saying $1200 per dog, and they aren't sure if they are even breeding in 2013.
I did get someone else who contacted me back that are $900 per dog, And they are already taking deposits for a spring 2013 litter and half are already taken, so I'm not sure about that one yet.

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Re: Buying my first hunting dog

Post by Gneiss Dog » Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:09 am

It's all percentages. Can you get a good hunting dog from the adds? Yes but the odds of a good dog increase from reputable breeders. A started dog pushes the odds more in your favor as you know it can hunt, and you don't have to pay a trainer to get to that point. Like rooster said see about joining a club and see dogs work so you have a better idea of what you want/like. Be patient hopefully whatever you get will be around along time. The price of the dog is the cheapest part be it free, budget or top of the line.

Good luck.

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Re: Buying my first hunting dog

Post by jimbo&rooster » Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:48 am

I dont want to sound like "that guy" but if you are going to buy from a classified add just because you dont want to spend the money upfront to buy a $1000 dog, You may want to reconsider buying a dog.

When you figure the cost of a dog over a 10+ year lifespan the initial cost is but a drop in the bucket. I would much rather spend $ upfrront and take a better shot at getting a good workable dog than spend the next 10 years with a mediocre dog because I didnt want to spend the money up front.

I know that sounds a little harsh, but I have been where you are at. You know that you are several months to a year from buying a pup, Why not just start ratholing some money now knowing that it will be a good investment down the road.

This is coming from a guy who has a dog that was bought from a classified add sleeping on his couch because he just didn't cut it......

Jim
A limit on the strap is nice, but the kill has nothing to do with tradition.

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Re: Buying my first hunting dog

Post by reba » Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:19 am

One last thought; "Wait until you have the TIME and MONEY" and do it right.

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Re: Buying my first hunting dog

Post by DogNewbie » Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:46 am

TheLukai1100 wrote:I probably will buy a dog from a Ad.
Most breeders that i have contacted are saying $1200 per dog, and they aren't sure if they are even breeding in 2013.
I did get someone else who contacted me back that are $900 per dog, And they are already taking deposits for a spring 2013 litter and half are already taken, so I'm not sure about that one yet.
Keep your eye on the dogs for sale page on the forum. Lots of pups in your price range and they usually post pedigrees.

S. NJ can't be too far for you?
viewtopic.php?f=120&t=37036

oops...you're from maine....never mind that's kinda a hike...but the point is you can find a lot of pups within your start up cost range on the forum.

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Re: Buying my first hunting dog

Post by Sleepy trout » Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:18 am

Look at your pm's

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Re: Buying my first hunting dog

Post by TheLukai1100 » Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:40 am

I think I'm going to just bite the bullet and put a deposit on a dog from here: http://autumnkennelgermanshorthairedpointers.com/
The only thing is I won't be able to see the sire or dam (not soon anyways), they won 6 NAVHDA Breeder's awards so I'll take a chance and just risk not seeing the parents.

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Re: Buying my first hunting dog

Post by Elkhunter » Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:50 am

You dont have to spend $1000-$1500 to get a very well bred dog. There are MANY MANY very nice GSP/EP litters for $500-$700.

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Re: Buying my first hunting dog

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:59 am

jimbo&rooster wrote:I dont want to sound like "that guy" but if you are going to buy from a classified add just because you dont want to spend the money upfront to buy a $1000 dog, You may want to reconsider buying a dog.

When you figure the cost of a dog over a 10+ year lifespan the initial cost is but a drop in the bucket. I would much rather spend $ upfrront and take a better shot at getting a good workable dog than spend the next 10 years with a mediocre dog because I didnt want to spend the money up front.

I know that sounds a little harsh, but I have been where you are at. You know that you are several months to a year from buying a pup, Why not just start ratholing some money now knowing that it will be a good investment down the road.

This is coming from a guy who has a dog that was bought from a classified add sleeping on his couch because he just didn't cut it......

Jim
I for one am not going to buy a pup for 1000, a car for 100,000, or a house for 500,000, no matter how much more I have to spend to take care of them. And I think I will still buy one and not reconsider any of the three.

I keep hearing that same argumnet and still don't understand the thinking behind it. It seems to me that the more you spend the chances are it will cost more to keep also and not less. Where am I going wrong?

Ezzy
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Re: Buying my first hunting dog

Post by JWP58 » Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:00 pm

I got lucky with my first dog. He's been great and is showing promise in the field.

I saw an add in the paper for Brittany pups and went to look. He was covered in fleas and ticks, along with his littermates. I wasnt leaving there without a puppy! Wish I wouldve bought two!!!

Now Im actually buying my 2nd dog from a breeder, I'll pick her up in two weeks. We'll see if theres a difference in luck of the draw, and researched breeding.
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Re: Buying my first hunting dog

Post by Johng918 » Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:24 pm

TheLukai1100 wrote:I probably will buy a dog from a Ad.
Most breeders that i have contacted are saying $1200 per dog, and they aren't sure if they are even breeding in 2013.
I did get someone else who contacted me back that are $900 per dog, And they are already taking deposits for a spring 2013 litter and half are already taken, so I'm not sure about that one yet.
PM sent

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Re: Buying my first hunting dog

Post by Francois P vd Walt » Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:40 pm

IMO -You do not sound sure in what you're going to do with this dog ?

Are you going to be trialing, competitions etc. go to some events and see what there is. If you are going to walk and hunt be sure you do not get a all age horse back dog, you will never see the dog. Handling a highly bred ground eating bird finder is not easy. If you want a hunting buddy get any dog you like, be sure to go see both parents working/hunting, or get sure references on previous litters. Remember it is a 10 year plus commitment ! Take your time go see as many as you canyou will know when you find the right one, a good buddy is far more importend than a all time champ with no personality, unless you plan to win some stakes.

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Re: Buying my first hunting dog

Post by cjhills » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:24 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
jimbo&rooster wrote:I dont want to sound like "that guy" but if you are going to buy from a classified add just because you dont want to spend the money upfront to buy a $1000 dog, You may want to reconsider buying a dog.

When you figure the cost of a dog over a 10+ year lifespan the initial cost is but a drop in the bucket. I would much rather spend $ upfrront and take a better shot at getting a good workable dog than spend the next 10 years with a mediocre dog because I didnt want to spend the money up front.

I know that sounds a little harsh, but I have been where you are at. You know that you are several months to a year from buying a pup, Why not just start ratholing some money now knowing that it will be a good investment down the road.

This is coming from a guy who has a dog that was bought from a classified add sleeping on his couch because he just didn't cut it......

Jim
I for one am not going to buy a pup for 1000, a car for 100,000, or a house for 500,000, no matter how much more I have to spend to take care of them. And I think I will still buy one and not reconsider any of the three.

I keep hearing that same argumnet and still don't understand the thinking behind it. It seems to me that the more you spend the chances are it will cost more to keep also and not less. Where am I going wrong?

Ezzy
Why would it cost more to keep because you spend more initially. A good part of the cost is the health gaurantees and service after the purchase.
Incidentally you are pretty much assured of getting a good pup with the bloodlines they have. Would like to see afew more 112 natural ability scores ,but that can go to the handler as much as the pup, Good Luck CJ

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Re: Buying my first hunting dog

Post by gotpointers » Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:41 am

Francois P vd Walt wrote:IMO -You do not sound sure in what you're going to do with this dog ?

Are you going to be trialing, competitions etc. go to some events and see what there is. If you are going to walk and hunt be sure you do not get a all age horse back dog, you will never see the dog. Handling a highly bred ground eating bird finder is not easy. If you want a hunting buddy get any dog you like, be sure to go see both parents working/hunting, or get sure references on previous litters. Remember it is a 10 year plus commitment ! Take your time go see as many as you canyou will know when you find the right one, a good buddy is far more importend than a all time champ with no personality, unless you plan to win some stakes.
This is how rumors get started...

There are all age dogs that still easily win at nastra, navhda. It's how you train the dog that makes the difference. In the case of the runoff that you described that's called not training.

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gotpointers
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Re: Buying my first hunting dog

Post by gotpointers » Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:02 am

Here's some proof.check out jacks win record http://www.caladenkennels.com/males.htm

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Francois P vd Walt
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Re: Buying my first hunting dog

Post by Francois P vd Walt » Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:43 am

gotpointers wrote:
Francois P vd Walt wrote:IMO -You do not sound sure in what you're going to do with this dog ?

Are you going to be trialing, competitions etc. go to some events and see what there is. If you are going to walk and hunt be sure you do not get a all age horse back dog, you will never see the dog. Handling a highly bred ground eating bird finder is not easy. If you want a hunting buddy get any dog you like, be sure to go see both parents working/hunting, or get sure references on previous litters. Remember it is a 10 year plus commitment ! Take your time go see as many as you canyou will know when you find the right one, a good buddy is far more importend than a all time champ with no personality, unless you plan to win some stakes.

This is how rumors get started...

There are all age dogs that still easily win at nastra, navhda. It's how you train the dog that makes the difference. In the case of the runoff that you described that's called not training.
Maybe he should not get a all age dog first time around then ......... For a newbie having to much leg cab become a problem I think. If you get a avarage ranging dog with average drive for a first time trainer, you can always work up to more later. Getting something you can not handle will maybe make one negatif towards bird dogs.

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