Backing is it bred or trained ?

[Francois P vd Walt]

When dogs back/honor another dog pointing is this a trained dicipline or a genetic thing ?

[Georgia Boy]

I have found a few dogs that seemed to naturally back but for the most part it is trained.

[Ms. Cage]

There are dogs that back naturally and dogs that have to be taught. Two of the three dogs we have right now are natural backers.

[ezzy333]

My dogs were either born with it or learned on their own.

Ezzy

[Nick Miles]

Interesting question.

I think it is a learned behaviour and not genetic at all. Once a dog starts hunting and pointing it's own birds, it will recognise a pointing dog on birds. I believe it has everything to do with timing and introduction to the requirement of backing and should not be forced on a young dog. A young dog that has not been exposed to it's own birds should not be expected to back IMO. Backing is purely a manners issue, and timing of training this is crucial. Not too young, dogs should learn backing off dogs and wild birds and not cut out dummies and dogs that are sticky (ie: barren points)

[tfbirddog2]

All of my GSPs have back naturally, never trained them to do it other, whoa them just cuase I have whoaed the rest.

[Ms. Cage]

I think it is a learned behaviour and not genetic at all. Once a dog starts hunting and pointing it's own birds, it will recognise a pointing dog on birds.

When you watch a 10 -12 week old pup slam into a back seeing another dog relieve it self you know it's natural and not trained.

[Cajun Casey]

I believe it is deeply rooted in genetics. I have had dogs that would "back" a lard bucket from the time they were puppies.

[Trekmoor]

I believe that it is mainly genetic but some dogs need a bit of praise to begin with when they back naturally or they move in to steal the dogs point. I have often watched the reactions of my own labs and spaniels to seeing a dog on point . They seem to recognise instantly that the dog has something very interesting right in front of it. My labs and spaniels lack pointing instinct however so they at once move in .....if I let them. Basically I think the backing "instinct" comes in two separate parts.... the recognition of a point on game and then the actual honouring of that point. My labs and spaniels have the first bit of the "back" from their genetics but not the second bit.

I took these pics about a week ago. The young Vizsla pointed and the cocker bitch pup of just 6 months old saw her, knew there was something of interest ahead and moved in to steal the vizzies point. The vizzie was shocked by her lack of etiquette and at once slackened right off in her pointing intensity as the pup forged on ahead. That little cocker didn't have a clue what the scent meant since she had never seen a pheasant in her life before. She tracked it right through broken branches and a very large nettle bed before she pushed it out and got to see her quarry for the first time. She chased it right off the field ..... the vizzie was very dischuffed ! I no longer take the vizsla and the pup out together ! :roll:








Bill T.

[Elkhunter]

I have had some that do and some that dont.

[codym]

Like Josh said some genetically just know how to do it, Ive had pointers back the fist time they see another dog on point as far as they can see, I would call those natural backers. I have had pointers that would blow by another dog on point or steal point, those are obviously not natural backers. In the case of the latter backing must be a trained action.

[ymepointer]

Natural backing is definately genetic, but it can be trained in as well. I have seen both naturals and non backers in the same litter. I had a millers silver bullet daughter years ago that would back as soon as I styled up another dog on the barrel during yard breaking.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f227/ ... ths007.jpg

[fuzznut]

Agree with everyone who said both.
I have had dogs that just backed as puppies, but when they grew up, they had to learn they HAD to do it They were pretty easy to teach.

I've had dogs that seemed to have no inkling whatsoever... they also had to learn that they HAD to do it.

Seems to me that the dogs that had an inkling were much easier to teach the manners of backing.. as in, staying put through a retriever for us Continental types.

I love to see it in young dogs, and I also think those dogs may show more point? Don't know.. just thinking out loud.

[SetterNut]

Most of mine over the years have backed naturally. But training a back is pretty simple.

[Brittguy]

Both

[Nick Miles]

To me there is a difference between trained and learned. I have seen pups that that stop when another dog is having a pee, but I would not call this backing - my wife's maltese poodle stops and watches my dogs have a pee. Backing for me is the acknowledgement of birds in the area in an effort to not disturb or cock up located birds. A seasoned smart shooting dog will soon start backing when you close your gun. That's learned - not trained and certainly not genetic.

[brad27]

A seasoned smart shooting dog will soon start backing when you close your gun.

[phermes1]

I think there is no question a natural element to it that can either make training for it MUCH easier or eliminate the need altogether. I have dogs that I literally have not worked on backing for a single minute and I never, ever worry about them blowing a back - and I have others that I've had to train quite quite a bit and I still always wonder what they're going to do when they encounter a dog on point.

[Nick Miles]

A seasoned smart shooting dog will soon start backing when you close your gun.

Brad. To explain, I know it seems odd; Obviously one dog only will make my statement seem crazy. You're hunting over two or three dogs. One slams into a point and is unseen by the other dog, now coming into view. You close your gun and walk toward the pointing dog which the other dog still can't see but backs your closed gun. I like a dog to be cautious and aware of anything, and a dog that is aware of a closed gun is a wise old campaigner.

[rinker]

I believe that backing is pointing, it is just triggered by a stimulus other than scent. Generally the stimulus is the sight of another dog pointing, but many dogs will back the point mode of a beeper, or the sight of a hunter flushing, and I'm sure there are other examples. Backing is genetic, because pointing is genetic, and they are one in the same.

[DonF]

A seasoned smart shooting dog will soon start backing when you close your gun.

Brad. To explain, I know it seems odd; Obviously one dog only will make my statement seem crazy. You're hunting over two or three dogs. One slams into a point and is unseen by the other dog, now coming into view. You close your gun and walk toward the pointing dog which the other dog still can't see but backs your closed gun. I like a dog to be cautious and aware of anything, and a dog that is aware of a closed gun is a wise old campaigner.

How close do your dog hunt that they can hear the gun close? I've had dogs that started backing second time I took them out to a backing dummy with a remote in front of it. I've never used whoa in connection with backing but rather used to popped bird to stop the dog. Then I've seen dogs that would blow by the pointing dog and steal the bird every time. With my present dog's, I believe backing came pretty natural. Bodie backed Squirt the very first time he ever saw Squirt on a point. Squirt came on a bit slower but he got it by himself too. I'm not so sure it's the function of backing that is bread in but rather caution. Weather it's good bad or indifferent I have no idea other than to say it creates one thing I hon't have to train.

BTW, I would not doubt that a dog can be conditioned to back at the sound of a closing gun, especially if you don't close the gun till you are at the bird where the dog can heat it. Dog hears you close a gun enough times then see's the bird, yep, I sure it could work.

[Ms. Cage]

A seasoned smart shooting dog will soon start backing when you close your gun. That's learned - not trained and certainly not genetic.

Some would call this a situational back. Has nothing to do with the pointing dog. Elements such as the closing of a gun or a hunter standing around but the pointing dog never seen. Learned behavior. In a test this would never fly. Your dog would be asked to move up or relocate.

[cjhills]

A seasoned smart shooting dog will soon start backing when you close your gun. That's learned - not trained and certainly not genetic.

Some would call this a situational back. Has nothing to do with the pointing dog. Elements such as the closing of a gun or a hunter standing around but the pointing dog never seen. Learned behavior. In a test this would never fly. Your dog would be asked to mov e up or relocate.

Most Hunt test trainers train their dogs to honor the setup situation and most reasonably intelligent dogs that have run senior and master learn to honor the setup. It gets you a pass but thats about all. CJ

[Ms. Cage]

My husband has been asked to relocate on situational backs at the master level. We had a friend whos dog took his Q off of the handler at the invitational and every time the handler would stop so would the dog. No pass, the dog didn't back the other dog but Q'd off the handler. At the invitational level it's the reason handlers are asked to keep moving while the other dog is brought in for a back. Back the dog, not the situation

[ezzy333]

I think what I am hearing hear is a stop and not a back. Back in my mind refers to a dog pointing behind another dog, thus a back of the other dogs point. A dog stopping to a gun closing is just that, a stop till it finds out whats going on. Either is good but different and sparked by a totally different situation.

Ezzy

[JKP]

I Think the ability and tendency is genetically programmed and is brought out through experience. If I let a pup run the grouse woods with an older dog, they start backing quickly and early. Training makes it dependable. IMO...its a learned pack behavior. Often, we don't give pups the chance to run with other dogs on wild game. If its there and sufficiently strong, it will come out.

[birddogger]

My dogs were either born with it or learned on their own.

Ezzy

Same here but most of mine have been natural backers.

Charlie

[Francois P vd Walt]

I will also go with genetic, the dogs that don't back naturaly and are trained normaly sit and does nit point the piunting dog.

[Nick Miles]

How close do your dog hunt that they can hear the gun close?

Seriously?? - My dogs hunt plenty far enough thanks. Most good dogs back within reasonable view. I expect mine to do the same. And by the way, backing is a sight issue not a hearing issue... unless of course you're command backing your dogs?

[Nick Miles]

I will also go with genetic, the dogs that don't back naturaly and are trained normaly sit and does nit point the piunting dog.

To me that's a training and exposure issue. The dog does not recognise the pointing dog if you have to sit the dog in that situation - hunting exposure with other (staunch) dogs will sort that out. You asked the initial question though? is it one you already have an answer to?

Backing has been the subject of some very lengthy debate in my circle, and it seems there are different ideas on all aspects of backing. Especially when it comes to field trialling. I am lucky in that somehow all my dogs have never required much effort to get backing, and backing well. Some people I know battle with backing for many many years.

[brad27]

How close do your dog hunt that they can hear the gun close?

Seriously?? - My dogs hunt plenty far enough thanks. Most good dogs back within reasonable view. I expect mine to do the same. And by the way, backing is a sight issue not a hearing issue... unless of course you're command backing your dogs?

He's not the only one who thought you meant the sound of the gun closing.......................

[Francois P vd Walt]

I will also go with genetic, the dogs that don't back naturaly and are trained normaly sit and does nit point the piunting dog.

To me that's a training and exposure issue. The dog does not recognise the pointing dog if you have to sit the dog in that situation - hunting exposure with other (staunch) dogs will sort that out. You asked the initial question though? is it one you already have an answer to?

Backing has been the subject of some very lengthy debate in my circle, and it seems there are different ideas on all aspects of backing. Especially when it comes to field trialling. I am lucky in that somehow all my dogs have never required much effort to get backing, and backing well. Some people I know battle with backing for many many years.

Some dogs just don't back here in our country they will get trained to sit when they see another dog on point !
Same goes for gun shot or rising your closed gun to walk up the dogs that have done it enough know they must honor.

[Nick Miles]

Some dogs just don't back here in our country they will get trained to sit when they see another dog on point !
Same goes for gun shot or rising your closed gun to walk up the dogs that have done it enough know they must honor.

Never seen dogs sitting on backing before. Sitting or dropping to flushing birds or shot - yes, but never sitting to a pointing dog.

[Meller]

Genetic's mostly, but can be trained.

[Francois P vd Walt]

Some dogs just don't back here in our country they will get trained to sit when they see another dog on point !
Same goes for gun shot or rising your closed gun to walk up the dogs that have done it enough know they must honor.

Never seen dogs sitting on backing before. Sitting or dropping to flushing birds or shot - yes, but never sitting to a pointing dog.

Nic cometo the HPR Trials you will see them sit on backing ........

[Nick Miles]

Nic cometo the HPR Trials you will see them sit on backing ........

I can imagine it can happen - and I think it may be better than ignoring a pointing dog completely and either pressurising the pointing dog into breaking or putting up the birds, but I would consider a dog that does that to be lacking intensity, and that's one of the things I like to see in a bird dog. Intensity.