Backing is it bred or trained ?
- Francois P vd Walt
- Rank: Champion
- Posts: 380
- Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:26 pm
- Location: Witbank South Africa
Backing is it bred or trained ?
When dogs back/honor another dog pointing is this a trained dicipline or a genetic thing ?
Matotoland Kennel SA
http://gsp-bullet.blogspot.com/
http://gsp-bullet.blogspot.com/p/dog-pedigrees.html
http://gsp-bullet.blogspot.com/
http://gsp-bullet.blogspot.com/p/dog-pedigrees.html
-
- Rank: 5X Champion
- Posts: 753
- Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2008 6:50 pm
- Location: Georgia
Re: Backing is it bred or trained ?
I have found a few dogs that seemed to naturally back but for the most part it is trained.
Home of the truly versatile hunting companion www.vommountaincreek.com
Re: Backing is it bred or trained ?
There are dogs that back naturally and dogs that have to be taught. Two of the three dogs we have right now are natural backers.
Re: Backing is it bred or trained ?
My dogs were either born with it or learned on their own.
Ezzy
Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207
It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!
Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207
It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!
Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.
-
- Rank: Junior Hunter
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:12 am
- Location: South Africa
Re: Backing is it bred or trained ?
Interesting question.
I think it is a learned behaviour and not genetic at all. Once a dog starts hunting and pointing it's own birds, it will recognise a pointing dog on birds. I believe it has everything to do with timing and introduction to the requirement of backing and should not be forced on a young dog. A young dog that has not been exposed to it's own birds should not be expected to back IMO. Backing is purely a manners issue, and timing of training this is crucial. Not too young, dogs should learn backing off dogs and wild birds and not cut out dummies and dogs that are sticky (ie: barren points)
I think it is a learned behaviour and not genetic at all. Once a dog starts hunting and pointing it's own birds, it will recognise a pointing dog on birds. I believe it has everything to do with timing and introduction to the requirement of backing and should not be forced on a young dog. A young dog that has not been exposed to it's own birds should not be expected to back IMO. Backing is purely a manners issue, and timing of training this is crucial. Not too young, dogs should learn backing off dogs and wild birds and not cut out dummies and dogs that are sticky (ie: barren points)
- tfbirddog2
- Rank: 5X Champion
- Posts: 842
- Joined: Sat May 22, 2004 7:56 pm
- Location: Colby,KS
Re: Backing is it bred or trained ?
All of my GSPs have back naturally, never trained them to do it other, whoa them just cuase I have whoaed the rest.
" Everyone makes fun of a redneck till their car breaks down"Larry the Cable Guy
Re: Backing is it bred or trained ?
When you watch a 10 -12 week old pup slam into a back seeing another dog relieve it self you know it's natural and not trained.Nick Miles wrote:I think it is a learned behaviour and not genetic at all. Once a dog starts hunting and pointing it's own birds, it will recognise a pointing dog on birds.
- Cajun Casey
- GDF Junkie
- Posts: 4243
- Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:59 pm
- Location: Tulsa, OK
Re: Backing is it bred or trained ?
I believe it is deeply rooted in genetics. I have had dogs that would "back" a lard bucket from the time they were puppies.
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Re: Backing is it bred or trained ?
I believe that it is mainly genetic but some dogs need a bit of praise to begin with when they back naturally or they move in to steal the dogs point. I have often watched the reactions of my own labs and spaniels to seeing a dog on point . They seem to recognise instantly that the dog has something very interesting right in front of it. My labs and spaniels lack pointing instinct however so they at once move in .....if I let them. Basically I think the backing "instinct" comes in two separate parts.... the recognition of a point on game and then the actual honouring of that point. My labs and spaniels have the first bit of the "back" from their genetics but not the second bit.
I took these pics about a week ago. The young Vizsla pointed and the cocker bitch pup of just 6 months old saw her, knew there was something of interest ahead and moved in to steal the vizzies point. The vizzie was shocked by her lack of etiquette and at once slackened right off in her pointing intensity as the pup forged on ahead. That little cocker didn't have a clue what the scent meant since she had never seen a pheasant in her life before. She tracked it right through broken branches and a very large nettle bed before she pushed it out and got to see her quarry for the first time. She chased it right off the field ..... the vizzie was very dischuffed ! I no longer take the vizsla and the pup out together ! :roll:
Bill T.
I took these pics about a week ago. The young Vizsla pointed and the cocker bitch pup of just 6 months old saw her, knew there was something of interest ahead and moved in to steal the vizzies point. The vizzie was shocked by her lack of etiquette and at once slackened right off in her pointing intensity as the pup forged on ahead. That little cocker didn't have a clue what the scent meant since she had never seen a pheasant in her life before. She tracked it right through broken branches and a very large nettle bed before she pushed it out and got to see her quarry for the first time. She chased it right off the field ..... the vizzie was very dischuffed ! I no longer take the vizsla and the pup out together ! :roll:
Bill T.
Last edited by Trekmoor on Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
The older I get, the better I was !
Re: Backing is it bred or trained ?
I have had some that do and some that dont.
Re: Backing is it bred or trained ?
Like Josh said some genetically just know how to do it, Ive had pointers back the fist time they see another dog on point as far as they can see, I would call those natural backers. I have had pointers that would blow by another dog on point or steal point, those are obviously not natural backers. In the case of the latter backing must be a trained action.
- ymepointer
- Rank: 4X Champion
- Posts: 611
- Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2008 1:21 pm
- Location: The Pacific Northwest
Re: Backing is it bred or trained ?
Natural backing is definately genetic, but it can be trained in as well. I have seen both naturals and non backers in the same litter. I had a millers silver bullet daughter years ago that would back as soon as I styled up another dog on the barrel during yard breaking.
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f227/ ... ths007.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f227/ ... ths007.jpg
Re: Backing is it bred or trained ?
Agree with everyone who said both.
I have had dogs that just backed as puppies, but when they grew up, they had to learn they HAD to do it They were pretty easy to teach.
I've had dogs that seemed to have no inkling whatsoever... they also had to learn that they HAD to do it.
Seems to me that the dogs that had an inkling were much easier to teach the manners of backing.. as in, staying put through a retriever for us Continental types.
I love to see it in young dogs, and I also think those dogs may show more point? Don't know.. just thinking out loud.
I have had dogs that just backed as puppies, but when they grew up, they had to learn they HAD to do it They were pretty easy to teach.
I've had dogs that seemed to have no inkling whatsoever... they also had to learn that they HAD to do it.
Seems to me that the dogs that had an inkling were much easier to teach the manners of backing.. as in, staying put through a retriever for us Continental types.
I love to see it in young dogs, and I also think those dogs may show more point? Don't know.. just thinking out loud.
Home of NAFC/DC Ariel's Justa Gotta Go Now- 2010 AKC Gun Dog 1 hr. CH R/U
http://germanwirehair.blogspot.com/
http://germanwirehair.blogspot.com/
Re: Backing is it bred or trained ?
Most of mine over the years have backed naturally. But training a back is pretty simple.
Steve
Re: Backing is it bred or trained ?
Both
FC Diamond - http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=9
FC Mac - http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=949
Dillion - http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=950
Chrome - http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=951
Alex - http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=946
Cher - http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=952
FC Mac - http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=949
Dillion - http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=950
Chrome - http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=951
Alex - http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=946
Cher - http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=952
-
- Rank: Junior Hunter
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:12 am
- Location: South Africa
Re: Backing is it bred or trained ?
To me there is a difference between trained and learned. I have seen pups that that stop when another dog is having a pee, but I would not call this backing - my wife's maltese poodle stops and watches my dogs have a pee. Backing for me is the acknowledgement of birds in the area in an effort to not disturb or cock up located birds. A seasoned smart shooting dog will soon start backing when you close your gun. That's learned - not trained and certainly not genetic.
Re: Backing is it bred or trained ?
A seasoned smart shooting dog will soon start backing when you close your gun.
Re: Backing is it bred or trained ?
I think there is no question a natural element to it that can either make training for it MUCH easier or eliminate the need altogether. I have dogs that I literally have not worked on backing for a single minute and I never, ever worry about them blowing a back - and I have others that I've had to train quite quite a bit and I still always wonder what they're going to do when they encounter a dog on point.
http://www.socovs.com
DC AFC Valley Hunter's Southern Comfort CD MH NA NAJ, UT Prize II, "Shooter"
DC GCH Lagniappe's Chosen One MH, "Buffy"
DC AFC SoCo's Enchanted One JH, "TomBoy"
CH SoCo's Independence Day SH, "Patriot"
SoCo's Twist of Fate JH, "Emma Jane"
DC AFC Valley Hunter's Southern Comfort CD MH NA NAJ, UT Prize II, "Shooter"
DC GCH Lagniappe's Chosen One MH, "Buffy"
DC AFC SoCo's Enchanted One JH, "TomBoy"
CH SoCo's Independence Day SH, "Patriot"
SoCo's Twist of Fate JH, "Emma Jane"
-
- Rank: Junior Hunter
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:12 am
- Location: South Africa
Re: Backing is it bred or trained ?
Brad. To explain, I know it seems odd; Obviously one dog only will make my statement seem crazy. You're hunting over two or three dogs. One slams into a point and is unseen by the other dog, now coming into view. You close your gun and walk toward the pointing dog which the other dog still can't see but backs your closed gun. I like a dog to be cautious and aware of anything, and a dog that is aware of a closed gun is a wise old campaigner.brad27 wrote:A seasoned smart shooting dog will soon start backing when you close your gun.
Re: Backing is it bred or trained ?
I believe that backing is pointing, it is just triggered by a stimulus other than scent. Generally the stimulus is the sight of another dog pointing, but many dogs will back the point mode of a beeper, or the sight of a hunter flushing, and I'm sure there are other examples. Backing is genetic, because pointing is genetic, and they are one in the same.
Re: Backing is it bred or trained ?
How close do your dog hunt that they can hear the gun close? I've had dogs that started backing second time I took them out to a backing dummy with a remote in front of it. I've never used whoa in connection with backing but rather used to popped bird to stop the dog. Then I've seen dogs that would blow by the pointing dog and steal the bird every time. With my present dog's, I believe backing came pretty natural. Bodie backed Squirt the very first time he ever saw Squirt on a point. Squirt came on a bit slower but he got it by himself too. I'm not so sure it's the function of backing that is bread in but rather caution. Weather it's good bad or indifferent I have no idea other than to say it creates one thing I hon't have to train.Nick Miles wrote:Brad. To explain, I know it seems odd; Obviously one dog only will make my statement seem crazy. You're hunting over two or three dogs. One slams into a point and is unseen by the other dog, now coming into view. You close your gun and walk toward the pointing dog which the other dog still can't see but backs your closed gun. I like a dog to be cautious and aware of anything, and a dog that is aware of a closed gun is a wise old campaigner.brad27 wrote:A seasoned smart shooting dog will soon start backing when you close your gun.
BTW, I would not doubt that a dog can be conditioned to back at the sound of a closing gun, especially if you don't close the gun till you are at the bird where the dog can heat it. Dog hears you close a gun enough times then see's the bird, yep, I sure it could work.
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!
Re: Backing is it bred or trained ?
Some would call this a situational back. Has nothing to do with the pointing dog. Elements such as the closing of a gun or a hunter standing around but the pointing dog never seen. Learned behavior. In a test this would never fly. Your dog would be asked to move up or relocate.Nick Miles wrote:A seasoned smart shooting dog will soon start backing when you close your gun. That's learned - not trained and certainly not genetic.
Re: Backing is it bred or trained ?
Most Hunt test trainers train their dogs to honor the setup situation and most reasonably intelligent dogs that have run senior and master learn to honor the setup. It gets you a pass but thats about all. CJMs. Cage wrote:Some would call this a situational back. Has nothing to do with the pointing dog. Elements such as the closing of a gun or a hunter standing around but the pointing dog never seen. Learned behavior. In a test this would never fly. Your dog would be asked to mov e up or relocate.Nick Miles wrote:A seasoned smart shooting dog will soon start backing when you close your gun. That's learned - not trained and certainly not genetic.
Re: Backing is it bred or trained ?
My husband has been asked to relocate on situational backs at the master level. We had a friend whos dog took his Q off of the handler at the invitational and every time the handler would stop so would the dog. No pass, the dog didn't back the other dog but Q'd off the handler. At the invitational level it's the reason handlers are asked to keep moving while the other dog is brought in for a back. Back the dog, not the situation
Re: Backing is it bred or trained ?
I think what I am hearing hear is a stop and not a back. Back in my mind refers to a dog pointing behind another dog, thus a back of the other dogs point. A dog stopping to a gun closing is just that, a stop till it finds out whats going on. Either is good but different and sparked by a totally different situation.
Ezzy
Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207
It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!
Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207
It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!
Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.
Re: Backing is it bred or trained ?
I Think the ability and tendency is genetically programmed and is brought out through experience. If I let a pup run the grouse woods with an older dog, they start backing quickly and early. Training makes it dependable. IMO...its a learned pack behavior. Often, we don't give pups the chance to run with other dogs on wild game. If its there and sufficiently strong, it will come out.
- birddogger
- GDF Junkie
- Posts: 3776
- Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:09 pm
- Location: Bunker Hill, IL.
Re: Backing is it bred or trained ?
Same here but most of mine have been natural backers.ezzy333 wrote:My dogs were either born with it or learned on their own.
Ezzy
Charlie
If you think you can or if you think you can't, you are right either way
- Francois P vd Walt
- Rank: Champion
- Posts: 380
- Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:26 pm
- Location: Witbank South Africa
Re: Backing is it bred or trained ?
I will also go with genetic, the dogs that don't back naturaly and are trained normaly sit and does nit point the piunting dog.
Matotoland Kennel SA
http://gsp-bullet.blogspot.com/
http://gsp-bullet.blogspot.com/p/dog-pedigrees.html
http://gsp-bullet.blogspot.com/
http://gsp-bullet.blogspot.com/p/dog-pedigrees.html
-
- Rank: Junior Hunter
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:12 am
- Location: South Africa
Re: Backing is it bred or trained ?
Seriously?? - My dogs hunt plenty far enough thanks. Most good dogs back within reasonable view. I expect mine to do the same. And by the way, backing is a sight issue not a hearing issue... unless of course you're command backing your dogs?DonF wrote:How close do your dog hunt that they can hear the gun close?
-
- Rank: Junior Hunter
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:12 am
- Location: South Africa
Re: Backing is it bred or trained ?
To me that's a training and exposure issue. The dog does not recognise the pointing dog if you have to sit the dog in that situation - hunting exposure with other (staunch) dogs will sort that out. You asked the initial question though? is it one you already have an answer to?Francois P vd Walt wrote:I will also go with genetic, the dogs that don't back naturaly and are trained normaly sit and does nit point the piunting dog.
Backing has been the subject of some very lengthy debate in my circle, and it seems there are different ideas on all aspects of backing. Especially when it comes to field trialling. I am lucky in that somehow all my dogs have never required much effort to get backing, and backing well. Some people I know battle with backing for many many years.
Re: Backing is it bred or trained ?
He's not the only one who thought you meant the sound of the gun closing.......................Nick Miles wrote:Seriously?? - My dogs hunt plenty far enough thanks. Most good dogs back within reasonable view. I expect mine to do the same. And by the way, backing is a sight issue not a hearing issue... unless of course you're command backing your dogs?DonF wrote:How close do your dog hunt that they can hear the gun close?
- Francois P vd Walt
- Rank: Champion
- Posts: 380
- Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:26 pm
- Location: Witbank South Africa
Re: Backing is it bred or trained ?
Nick Miles wrote:To me that's a training and exposure issue. The dog does not recognise the pointing dog if you have to sit the dog in that situation - hunting exposure with other (staunch) dogs will sort that out. You asked the initial question though? is it one you already have an answer to?Francois P vd Walt wrote:I will also go with genetic, the dogs that don't back naturaly and are trained normaly sit and does nit point the piunting dog.
Backing has been the subject of some very lengthy debate in my circle, and it seems there are different ideas on all aspects of backing. Especially when it comes to field trialling. I am lucky in that somehow all my dogs have never required much effort to get backing, and backing well. Some people I know battle with backing for many many years.
Some dogs just don't back here in our country they will get trained to sit when they see another dog on point !
Same goes for gun shot or rising your closed gun to walk up the dogs that have done it enough know they must honor.
Matotoland Kennel SA
http://gsp-bullet.blogspot.com/
http://gsp-bullet.blogspot.com/p/dog-pedigrees.html
http://gsp-bullet.blogspot.com/
http://gsp-bullet.blogspot.com/p/dog-pedigrees.html
-
- Rank: Junior Hunter
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:12 am
- Location: South Africa
Re: Backing is it bred or trained ?
Never seen dogs sitting on backing before. Sitting or dropping to flushing birds or shot - yes, but never sitting to a pointing dog.Francois P vd Walt wrote:Some dogs just don't back here in our country they will get trained to sit when they see another dog on point !
Same goes for gun shot or rising your closed gun to walk up the dogs that have done it enough know they must honor.
Re: Backing is it bred or trained ?
Genetic's mostly, but can be trained.
- Francois P vd Walt
- Rank: Champion
- Posts: 380
- Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:26 pm
- Location: Witbank South Africa
Re: Backing is it bred or trained ?
Nic cometo the HPR Trials you will see them sit on backing ........Nick Miles wrote:Never seen dogs sitting on backing before. Sitting or dropping to flushing birds or shot - yes, but never sitting to a pointing dog.Francois P vd Walt wrote:Some dogs just don't back here in our country they will get trained to sit when they see another dog on point !
Same goes for gun shot or rising your closed gun to walk up the dogs that have done it enough know they must honor.
Matotoland Kennel SA
http://gsp-bullet.blogspot.com/
http://gsp-bullet.blogspot.com/p/dog-pedigrees.html
http://gsp-bullet.blogspot.com/
http://gsp-bullet.blogspot.com/p/dog-pedigrees.html
-
- Rank: Junior Hunter
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:12 am
- Location: South Africa
Re: Backing is it bred or trained ?
I can imagine it can happen - and I think it may be better than ignoring a pointing dog completely and either pressurising the pointing dog into breaking or putting up the birds, but I would consider a dog that does that to be lacking intensity, and that's one of the things I like to see in a bird dog. Intensity.Francois P vd Walt wrote:Nic cometo the HPR Trials you will see them sit on backing ........