photos of locomotion

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:34 pm

Does anyone have a photo they can share of a pointer in this position? Or in the opposite position completely extended?

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:25 pm

Have you looked through the pictures on Strideaway?

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:05 pm

She wasn't running real hard....I've got a video some stills could probably be taken from.....

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:32 pm

Glad you asked.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:13 pm

Bill T.

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:51 pm

Thanks guys, keep them coming.

Bird dog1968, your photo is the right angle as a square on profile. I would love to see a sequence of photos of a pointer hauling a$$ and you could email them to me if you were so inclined to falcotait@hotmail.com. I am also trying to get the perfect "balls out" run on video to segment into still shots. It would also be nice to have an exact time frame and distance covered in one complete rotation of shots.

Don F your Gordon is in the perfect pose, the angle is slightly off profile though. I realize getting the perfect shots will be tough to line up but I thought it would be a good place to ask.

It's easy to find video and stills of dogs trotting or even galloping but these "all out" shots are difficult to come by. I'm very interested in conformation and the way it relates to locomotion. There are some good books explaining it, but not specifically of the pointing breeds, or better yet, the pointer. I know it's not a normal gait for any of the dogs as it takes too much energy long term, but I'd like to see the extent of what good conformation can stretch to. I believe that the "healthiest" conformation should be able to cruise easier at a steady gait if their top speed shows the greatest stretch.

Thanks again for your additions to this thread,

Steve

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:29 pm

I may have a video for you.....

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:32 pm

ultracarry wrote:I may have a video for you.....

I'd love to see it.

Steve

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:38 pm

It's too jumpy and about 30 min into the run. See if brad27 will make one for you.... He knows where I took this picture at..

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:09 pm

As in some of the other good photos, the angle is not something that lends itself to interpretation. That's the thing with photos in this case, to be interpreted correctly the video footage needs to be taken from a distance (or on a treadmill) so that the dog stays at a profile angle, but is clean enough to be zoomed for detail evaluation. I would assume the original photo of the skeleton was taken while the dog is running on a treadmill. I wish I had the resources to do that with my dogs. There's a lot of video out there of trotting dogs and some would say that's the best speed to test conformation, but I would argue that it is not good enough for pointers. The book "Dog's In Motion" along with its included videos has the kind of anatomical detail I'm looking for, but, unfortunately there's nothing in the book about pointers. If there was I'd spend the $100+ and get the book. I may anyway, but it's lacking in some aspects.

Thanks,

Steve

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:41 pm

Completely extended. maybe this isn't what you want. No pointer's but a few other's. britt's just seem to be good at it.

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:05 pm

Very nice Don. I will be interested to find out which front leg is forward, the first one off the ground or the second? I would assume the fore limb that's extended the most would be the first one off the ground, would you agree?? That would make it the first one back on the ground...right? A segmented video would show that detail.

Thank you, those are great shots,

Steve

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:13 pm

see if there is anything in this video nearish the end that works for you...

crackerd · Post by **crackerd** » Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:17 pm

Pointers only? - you're limiting yourself, locomotionally speaking...

MG

Post by **slistoe** » Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:03 pm

Trekmoor wrote:

Bill T.

Love the picture.

Post by **slistoe** » Fri Sep 28, 2012 2:18 pm

DonF wrote:Completely extended. maybe this isn't what you want. No pointer's but a few other's. britt's just seem to be good at it.

Quite a few years back I had some Pointer fellows tell me they liked to ride my dogs brace because my britts were "unusual". They had not seen them "run" before. They wanted to know what I was doing different. I have since given up on a few dogs in my breeding program because they simply could not figure out how to "run". Interestingly there is literature out there that claims the full suspension gallop is improper for Brittanys.
My experience with my dogs showed there was absolutely a correlation between extended suspension and long term endurance - those dogs that floated ground seemed to simply last longer at a faster rate than the others.
I used to run them on gravel roads and as a curiosity I took the tape measure along. At 25 mph I had one dog who would cover 24 feet paw to paw. She was easily the most agile dog I have ever owned. One time she was coming across the lawn and as she approached the Potentilla hedge you could see she was too close for a stride and too far to make it - she gathered up and cleared the hedge and kept going without a break of stride. I ran in and got the measure - 33 ft. paw to paw in the light snow cover. Most of my dogs were about 20 ft when they were booking it. I haven't ever measured the current crop.

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:51 pm

Interesting stuff Stephen and what you say goes along with my assumptions. Wonder what it is about brittneys though, if they are really different. I only know of one time when the male pointer I have now was at top speed and I've never seen a dog cover ground so fast. I was running him in some short sage and he was over a hill that I was almost ready to top. All the sudden the garmin's mph started increasing really fast. Right as I topped the hill I saw him at 700 yards running for all he's worth in a straight line. I've hunted coyotes and fox and have never seen anything even near as fast. I could not see it but he had to be chasing a blacktailed jack rabbit or further ahead of my view, an antelope. He went behind a hill and I hit him with the shock collar to hinder his forward motion. Anyway, I can only guess, but he had to be going over 30 miles an hour and maybe much more. His normal stride is typically around 12-14 miles an hour and even though he doesn't look super fast he gets across the ground nicely. When I saw him open up so fast I thought "he must have a great confirmation to be able to fly like that".

It would make sense that the healthiest conformations would allow the most extension.

Birddog, That dog is really cruising in that video but the dog seems to flow into the background leaving it difficult to see details. Thanks for putting it up though.

Crackerd, pointers because that's where my interest is, this other stuff is good to see and read though.

Steve

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:25 pm

None of my own pointer's ever extended like that, neither did my shorthairs. My present setter's don't do it but, I've photoed a lot of dog leaving the start at trials this year and lot's of Britt's do that, have no idea why. Actually I never gave it much though till I started shooting running dogs. Saw a weimeraner get close but not there. Have seen a number of britt's that look like a 2x4 flying thru the air.

Close but no cigar.

Bingo!

Getting shots like that are blind luck; yet I see a good number of Britt's do it. It isn't near as noticeable just watching or on video. It just happens to fast and is gone.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:22 am

I had to laughter about the good confirmation because most confirmation dogs wouldn't be able to run over 20 mph because they are too fat....

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:25 am

ultracarry wrote:I had to laughter about the good confirmation because most confirmation dogs wouldn't be able to run over 20 mph because they are too fat....

Condition has nothing to do with conformation.

Ezzy

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:37 am

Did I say it did? Just an observation. And most will never be in the condition to test it.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:28 am

I know it's not what the O.P. wanted but I love the way this vizsla pup (show and pet bred) extends and reaches out to cover ground when she isn't trying to run hard. I'm afraid I know nothing about conformation, I just know when a dog looks "right." ......pity about the tail length, it is illegal to dock them in Scotland. :roll:

Bill T.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:53 am

Trekmoor wrote:I know it's not what the O.P. wanted but I love the way this vizsla pup (show and pet bred) extends and reaches out to cover ground when she isn't trying to run hard. I'm afraid I know nothing about conformation, I just know when a dog looks "right." ......pity about the tail length, it is illegal to dock them in Scotland. :roll:

Bill T.

What does she look like pointing a bird? That tail still go up?

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:07 am

I'll import one with a tail like that. If its anything like that on point they will ban me from nationals like they have others.!!!!

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Sep 29, 2012 10:59 am

ultracarry wrote:Did I say it did? Just an observation. And most will never be in the condition to test it.

Most Brits are, that why our best do well in both field and show dogs and end up Duals. I don't think the show dogs are fat but just haven't been conditioned to that extent.

Ezzy

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:44 am

Trekmoor wrote:I know it's not what the O.P. wanted but I love the way this vizsla pup (show and pet bred) extends and reaches out to cover ground when she isn't trying to run hard. I'm afraid I know nothing about conformation, I just know when a dog looks "right." ......pity about the tail length, it is illegal to dock them in Scotland. :roll:

Bill T.

Best looking vizsla I've ever seen! But I like naturally straight, high tails.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Sat Sep 29, 2012 2:21 pm

Sorry to disappoint some of you folks but the vizsla's tail lowers to about back level when she points. A " 12 0'clock" high type of tail on point is considered to be very unstylish in Britain and , I think, on the continent too.

She is one of the most athletic dogs I have ever encountered. She isn't mine's I just train her and work her. She is often inconsistent , she just will not really run on what looks to me like nice easy grassy fields ! She wakens up and "goes" on moorland or among cover. Maybe she's got it right though ..... the stuff she likes to really open out on is the stuff with more chance of game on it. Her retrieving is very good , land or water, fur or feather. One of these pics shows her whirling onto point in mid run. Another shows her pointing .... note the tails level !

The last one shows her leaping a log and brush pile in a jump of about 15 feet with a training dummy she retrieved from the woods behind her. She is pretty good for a show and pet bred young bitch.

My apologies to have wandered so far from the original theme of this thread.

Bill T.

asc · Post by **asc** » Sat Sep 29, 2012 7:20 pm

Trekmoor, that is a good looking dog.

Kmack · Post by **Kmack** » Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:10 pm

Not a pointer, but...

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:48 pm

Nice kmack.

Do you folks that have a lot of cross experience with brittneys and pointers see a different gait between the two. My friend has a well bred brittneys and the dog can do 30 miles (not mph, just miles) in the mountains off horseback in an afternoon no problem, so he has the stamina. But, from my limited experience in watching him run, his gait is slightly "see sawed" compared to my pointers. Have you seen that with other britts or any other difference in gait?? By the way, he's out of a dual champion and there are many in his pedigree.

Steve

Dave C · Post by **Dave C** » Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:12 am

Trekmoor wrote:Sorry to disappoint some of you folks but the vizsla's tail lowers to about back level when she points. A " 12 0'clock" high type of tail on point is considered to be very unstylish in Britain and , I think, on the continent too.

She is one of the most athletic dogs I have ever encountered. She isn't mine's I just train her and work her. She is often inconsistent , she just will not really run on what looks to me like nice easy grassy fields ! She wakens up and "goes" on moorland or among cover. Maybe she's got it right though ..... the stuff she likes to really open out on is the stuff with more chance of game on it. Her retrieving is very good , land or water, fur or feather. One of these pics shows her whirling onto point in mid run. Another shows her pointing .... note the tails level ! The last one shows her leaping a log and brush pile in a jump of about 15 feet with a training dummy she retrieved from the woods behind her. She is pretty good for a show and pet bred young bitch.

My apologies to have wandered so far from the original theme of this thread.

Bill T.

Very Very smart Viz Bill.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:02 am

Here is a side shot that might work for you. Not a pointer but he is extended.

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1349013764.927163.jpg

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:40 pm

Here's a photo of a fully extended pointer, looks like he can open up pretty good. This was emailed to me by a member, thanks Nick.

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Sun Sep 30, 2012 12:47 pm

Guys, I'd like to further my request to photos of all the in-between shots (from a profile angle) of a pointer from fully extended to fully contracted as in a 60 frame per second video. A shot from each frame so to speak. I will eventually share them as a book if I can accomplish it. The book would be a pencil drawn compilation of the skeletal frame. It's a bit ambitious as I'm very busy, but this locomotion anatomy interests me deeply and I haven't been able to find it elsewhere.

Thanks,

Steve

jmsgunner · Post by **jmsgunner** » Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:09 am

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xqJDJBsj9-M/T ... C_0080.jpg

My Gunner down in WV... see link for larger/better resolution

Photo Credit to Byrdgirl

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:14 pm

Just bought a book called "Dog locomotion and gait analysis" by Curtis Brown. What a fantastic book by a superior thinker and scientist. Just the little bit I've read through is captivating. He has no problem calling out the show people to use factual science for their criticisms on structure. Can't wait to get further into it. He's answering all my questions about the structural conformation for smooth locomotion. Just thought I'd pass it along, it's well worth the purchase price. It's an older book from 1986 but it is timeless.

Steve

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:44 pm

I can't comment about the content of the book at all since I have not seen it, but really, 1986 is "older"

Oscar · Post by **Oscar** » Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:29 pm

My dogs

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:27 pm

Great shots Oscar, thank you.

Stephen, it is older compared to Hastings book "Structure in Action" (which is classified as a real good read by reviewers) and even though she doesn't delve deeply into gait analysis per se by comparison, and considering I have only thumbed through her book having bought it at the same time, Brown's book seems so much more factual and scientific.I can't put it down even though it's a bit technical for me. Pat Hastings knows her stuff, but from what I can tell, not near the extent of Mr. Brown, even 25 years later. Stephen, if you have any interest at all in pointer locomotion and structure, Brown's book is worth your cash, IMO. I've got Pat Hastings' DVD "puppy puzzle" and it's a good one. I will get to her book when I finish Brown's and hopefully find it to be more about function than my first assumption. No doubt Brown and Hastings would agree on many structural qualities of certain dogs, but Browns approach is much more complete from what I can tell. I guess I'm excited about it because it's what I've been looking for to explain things that interest me about pointers in flight.

mtclip · Post by **mtclip** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:34 am

As fast as my camera could shoot Amy

Oscar · Post by **Oscar** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:52 am

Thanks SCT , , you know better , in my pictures, you can to see the double suspension gallop - I like so much- . The Weimaraner in the first photo had the speed to catch a hare and he make some time! The photo was taken in the seventies.

The second photo is my dog Luna Silver Shadow , up a hill, it does not lessen its speed,his galloping is long like the praire AA but with the animation of a dog shooting,and she is a endurance dog !!, making it maybe the search dog faster than I ever had.

Luna when she was a puppy

My labrador Nikon is the son of a NFCh - Eba- and their ancestors have honcho who inherited the speedy confrontation, a pure field trial material. He did not touch the stone fence when the step.

Then see Record, who was the son of Perfect Lehars tech - Miller Chief and Miller Litle Bess , - and his mother was the daughter of Miller Showcase, he had the typical step of Miller, always straight back to level, only saw her legs move like pistons, which made him restless. The photo was three hours running on the grass.

In the end my dog Pepe Grillo - lancelot and HI NOON female. He ran high with all the class possible, also double suspension I like so much.

Unfortunately I have no pictures of my avatar, Douglas, who was a very well built dog, ince my opinion, Record son and her mother was an inbred Red water rex, and ran fast too, and being big dog, he was able to cover a lot of ground .

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:14 pm

Oscar, I too am a big fan of the double suspension. I also love a fast dog. My dogs (pups) all have Lancelot in them and even more Branscum's Nickel. They seem to get across the ground fast and in good style.

Mtclip, thanks for the series of photos.