What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

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What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by Chukar12 » Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:24 pm

There are topics afloat about the need for breeding this characteristic or that but what actually constitutes a breeding program? I suspect there is a major difference in purpose between the casual breeder and those who truly measure their progress over decades. How many breeders openly recognize 'holes" in their dogs and actively seek to fix them by pursuing crosses or lines that in theory could have an impact; and further, how often do they measure and acknowledge if it does?

I think it is very few of us, probably me included, that have the fortitude and or resources to cycle dogs and measure success, and even fewer who cultivate the breeding acumen for continued improvement. Before we scale the moral argument most of the days of "off with their heads" can be tempered with "off with a couple of things further south" but you don't see much of it short of rescue dogs or those with identified health issues.

As much as it pains me to say it...I believe it is probably where the European Breed Wardens ( a term that rubs me wrong) and the American Field Pointer guys ...how do the kids say it? They are keeping it real... and please forgive my broad brush because i am not speaking to you...but a whole lot of the AKC crowd is just breeding a "nice" dog to another "nice" dog. In fairness, maybe we are far enough along that it works.

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Re: What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by prairiefirepointers » Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:02 pm

This ought to be interesting... :wink:
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Re: What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by Cajun Casey » Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:20 pm

Breeding programs (a term I detest with respect to dogs) are about goals. Having made that statement, I sell a particular brand of dog treats that includes in each box of biscuits a complimentary sticker with their company motto. I have, after fifteen years, decided to make that my singular goal: WAG MORE, BARK LESS.
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Re: What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by Chukar12 » Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:34 pm

prairiefirepointers wrote:This ought to be interesting...
Recent topics just made me think about it...I am just wondering if doing it like Wehle did is a thing of the past? It makes me wonder if its necessary or productive, I am just not seeing performance dog dynasty's ...I mean in the Brittany world all roads lead to Ban Dee, but that was 40 years ago...I guess recently you could argue that NLB has made an impact...
Do people still line breed or in breed and keep a whole litter and sort the deal out?
Again I do know of instances in the pointer world but outside it...not so much

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Re: What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by Cajun Casey » Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:58 pm

There are several kennels that have a circle of owners that participate in breeding and evaluating certain lines of German shorthairs. I think the epitome of the modern field trial pointer cartel would be those involved with continuing the development of the Miller line.
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Re: What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by SCT » Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:01 pm

I know there are breeders out there that are "line" breeding and have been for years. The good ones are very conscientious of what they produce and very careful of what dogs they bring into their lines for adjustments. I sure wish there were more of them.

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Re: What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by Georgia Boy » Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:32 pm

SCT wrote:I know there are breeders out there that are "line" breeding and have been for years. The good ones are very conscientious of what they produce and very careful of what dogs they bring into their lines for adjustments. I sure wish there were more of them.

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Re: What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by birddog1968 » Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:38 pm

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Re: What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by campgsp » Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:39 pm

Georgia Boy wrote:
SCT wrote:I know there are breeders out there that are "line" breeding and have been for years. The good ones are very conscientious of what they produce and very careful of what dogs they bring into their lines for adjustments. I sure wish there were more of them.

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What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by ACooper » Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:03 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:There are several kennels that have a circle of owners that participate in breeding and evaluating certain lines of German shorthairs.
This seems to be the M O for much of the GSP world, program by committee. The successful ones seem to have one "ring leader" and several very dedicated active participants. It allows access to far more dogs and gives the ability to test/prove more dogs than most people can do on their own in today's world.

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Re: What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by hustonmc » Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:14 pm

IMO, breeding dogs is single handily the most difficult animal for a "breeder" to improve upon, let alone an amateur breeder or begineer breeder, or backyard breeder or anything else you want to call them. Let me give an example, As a young child, and I'm talking 6 or 7 years young until adult hood I have been involved first hand in some sort of a breeding program.

Growing up I had a few fawn colored flemish giant does and a fawn colored flemish giant buck, as we kept some of the does out of those rabbits we purchased a darker colored flemish giant, not because of color but because it was available. Now as time went on I would acquire spotted dwarfs or many other random bred rabbits of various shapes and sizes for free from friends and teachers that no longer wanted to care for their rabbits. My parents gave me absolute control of what I wanted to breed to, want I wanted to keep as a buck and does I wanted to keep. So I mixed and matched size and color with my end goal being the biggest most colorful rabbits around. As an uneducated child within 3 years I was selling these huge gaining multi-colored shades of grey, white, spotted, black, calico, you name it, all huge all colorful. Not really difficult, kept babies out of does that threw color and size and only kept bucks that threw color and size. $5 for a butcher rabbit, wasn't to hard to cull what didn't throw what I wanted. Knowing what I know now, if I'd had kept up that program they probably would have began to revert back to the fawn colored flemish giants I started with. But I got what I wanted and I improved my program.

In 7th grade I purchased my first black angus heifer, with money I saved with my 4-H lambs, which I bought with my rabbit moeny. From that time forward I was involved in the breeding program. I remember sitting down with the folks scanning over EPD's before a Angus Bull Sale looking for the next bull to improve the herd. We sold weaned feeder calves to feed lots, so our breeding programs main goal was to have calves born small for calving ease and fast gaining so we could get more money at sale time and keep gaining so buyers kept coming back. That being the goal I would look for EPD's that had high weaning weight numbers, high milk numbers and relatively low birth weights. At first, it was near impossible finding that combo so high growth rate was #1. I'd go to the sell pen with my highlighted list and look at the bulls and start crossing them off, just because they had good numbers if I didn't like the way they moved or had a wild eye they didn't make the cut. I'd narrow the list to 5 and hand the list to my parents as the bulls we needed to go after. We kept heifer out of those bulls and looked for even higher numbered bulls to compliment them the next year. Each year the numbers got higher and higher. We never kept bulls and we never bought anything related to what we allready had. All we did was breed the best bulls we could afford to the best cows we could raise. By the time I graduated highschool our calves would sell for .15-.20 a lb higher then all other calves at the auction. 3 years without pulling a calf, calves weaned in maximum physical condition and buyers were clamering over themselves to have some Huston calves. All of that done in 6 short years. We sold majority of our gorgeous cows for BIG money and then started over, within 6 years, right back to were they were at, then did it again. 5 years later, those cattle in the pasture are looking pretty "bleep" good again :)

Now as a young adult I still help with the family cattle operation but the Club Lambs our my biggest farming hobby. Like the cattle industry, the club lamb industry changes over night. Trends come and go, judges like some qualities over others, but when it's all said and done, long bodied, wide/squared edge loins, eleved chest floor, massive muscle depth through the stifle and through the twist, with lots of dimension, square hipped and deep bodied with lots of capicity for guts which equals growth. Guess what, you have no idea how hard it is to breed square hips into sheep. Muscle and width is easy, growth is easy. Putting all of that together in a structual correct frame and that showy profile is proving to be difficult. So know I started line breeding, line breeding for that hip and that total package. I had the hip once, but my sheep ended up short bodied, course shouldered. So I out crossed that out to prettier sheep and completely lost my hip, all the ewes I bred to were square hipped too. After making some high priced decisions I think I am back on track, high hopes for lambs this spring. All of this has been done in 6 short years.

O.K. If your still with me you'll see how this all ties into dogs and a "breeding" program. From the rabbits, to the cattle, to the club lambs, what I wanted got inheriantly more difficult to produce, but what I was looking for was easy to see with the untrained eye. There is just WAY to much that goes into making a good dog. Brains, Speed, Gait, Animation, Nose, Disposition, Health........................... Then to make it even more difficult it could take 2-4yrs to really make an educated opinion on that dog. By the time you have 4 years into a couple different pups to examine your dog is an old man. By that time I've gone through 8 generations of sheep and I know whats working and whats not. Dog breeder doesn't even have a baseline yet. Without seeing generations and generations of dogs, how do you know where those qualities you like so much came from; Dam, Sire, Grand Sire.................. I'm going to go out on a limb and include myself in this number, but I would venture that 99 out of 100 people on this forum don't have near the expirience or knowledge to be line breeding dogs, but you see ads for them everyday. Read Snakefoot once and your an expert. Not only is there so many variables that ultimatley determine a good bird dog, but what do you do with the ones that don't? Rabbits, Cattle, Sheep are easy, they get fattened up and go to the butcher, what do you do with your best friend when he doesn't cut it?????? But here comes the best part..... I buy a pup out of a good dam bred to a good sire, I put the time in and develope him right, I'm probably going to be pretty satisfied with the end result of my dog, and that is were most of us are. I can imagine that trying to breed poker strait tails is alot like breeding square hipped sheep. If it was easy every pup born would have a poker strait tail and run with it busy and high, but that's not the case. How many of those big time "breeders" go through dozens and dozens of dogs before they find one that makes the cut. How many of those dogs that win and win often die of cancer at 7yrs old. As a bird hunter and amateur trialer, I'll leave the breeding up to the old timers that know a little more then I do. If someone wants to breed to my string am I going to turn them down, of course not!!!! I'll even take a pup if I like the bitch, besides if I got that lucky at 7 with rabbits, I may end up with the #1 dog in the nation, by just breeding "bleep" good to "bleep" good, it wouldn't be the first time and will not be the last. Do I have better odds when I take a pup from a knowledgable breeder, you bet your a$$, I'll take one of them too. It's my job to develope them right, besides like we mentioned, there is WAY to much that goes into making a good dog, all I can hope for is that I get lucky.

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Re: What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by jimbo&rooster » Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:31 pm

great post huston

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Re: What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by Chukar12 » Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:22 pm

Houston...that seems about right...good post

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Re: What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by Vision » Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:33 pm

Chukar12 wrote:There are topics afloat about the need for breeding this characteristic or that but what actually constitutes a breeding program? I suspect there is a major difference in purpose between the casual breeder and those who truly measure their progress over decades. How many breeders openly recognize 'holes" in their dogs and actively seek to fix them by pursuing crosses or lines that in theory could have an impact; and further, how often do they measure and acknowledge if it does?

I think it is very few of us, probably me included, that have the fortitude and or resources to cycle dogs and measure success, and even fewer who cultivate the breeding acumen for continued improvement. Before we scale the moral argument most of the days of "off with their heads" can be tempered with "off with a couple of things further south" but you don't see much of it short of rescue dogs or those with identified health issues.

As much as it pains me to say it...I believe it is probably where the European Breed Wardens ( a term that rubs me wrong) and the American Field Pointer guys ...how do the kids say it? They are keeping it real... and please forgive my broad brush because i am not speaking to you...but a whole lot of the AKC crowd is just breeding a "nice" dog to another "nice" dog. In fairness, maybe we are far enough along that it works.

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Re: What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by Stoneface » Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:17 pm

I really liked Huston's post. I think it's fairly simple to define. One professor I had would laugh anytime someone described health care in America as the "healthcare system," because, he said, it's not a system because no one designed it, he said it was a cluster mess.

I see a program - breeding or otherwise - as being the same thing. A goal of what you want AND A PLAN TO GET THERE.
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Re: What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by ACooper » Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:25 pm

Stoneface wrote:I see a program - breeding or otherwise - as being the same thing. A goal of what you want AND A PLAN TO GET THERE.
You also need the means to do it, a plan is nothing without the ability to keep plenty of dogs and money/time to prove them.

It just isn't feasible for most people to keep enough dogs by themselves.

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Re: What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by SHORTFAT » Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:55 am

Huston, that is one of the best posts I have seen on this forum in a long time. My question is, does your point of the difficulty in the time line of dog breeding explain why we still see the names of dogs from 40 years ago in our "champion" lines? What about the development of the pointing Lab lines? How long have they been around? (I'm asking here... cuz I don't know) Sadly around here a breeding program consists of a trailer court with 2 dozen pitbulls running around getting screwed by another dozen rotweilers... :evil: I'm not a breeder but I enjoy threads like this... 8)
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Re: What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by SCT » Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:40 am

Great post Huston, thanks for taking the time to write it out. I have come to agree with pretty much everything you said. That's why I now only buy my pointers from one breeder. I know what this breeder's goal has been for over 40 years and speak to him about breeding all the time. I am not young enough to try to do my own line breeding and have found what I want in this line, so I don't have to worry about it. Someone has done it for me. The biggest problem he faces is finding the right dog, sire/dam to bring into his line because not a lot of breeders have tried to clean up skeletons, cancer, etc. probably because it does take so many years of finding out what has to be culled. Like you said, there's a huge difference between what you've done and what dog breeders face. To me, health is a huge issue. I want a pup from a line that breeds true and one I can have fairly good faith that they'll be healthy and hunting past 10 years old. I hope I have that now.

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Re: What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:57 am

A chihuahua is 99.8% related to a Great Dane so how much difference is there between any pure breed. Therefore, if you breed a Pure breed to the same pure breed it would take many generations to breed out(or in) a certain quality. All pure breeds go back to either the Dingo or Grey Wolf and it's taken many hundreds of years to get where we are.

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Re: What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by Cajun Casey » Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:51 am

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:A chihuahua is 99.8% related to a Great Dane so how much difference is there between any pure breed. Therefore, if you breed a Pure breed to the same pure breed it would take many generations to breed out(or in) a certain quality. All pure breeds go back to either the Dingo or Grey Wolf and it's taken many hundreds of years to get where we are.
Dingos are descended from domestic dogs, not the other way round, and are a fairly modern arrival on the canine stage. Cornell's Village Dog project fairly established the Eurasian grey wolf as source point for all domestic dogs.
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Re: What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:00 am

Dingle go back thousands of years. Better study up.

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Re: What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:07 am

Not sure why my phone wanted to type Dingle. Sorry I meant Dingo.

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Re: What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by Cajun Casey » Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:50 am

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:Dingle go back thousands of years. Better study up.
I have.

http://www.ncbi.nim.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC514485/

The forerunners of dingos almost certainly arrived on the Australian continent and its islands alongside human migrations. That was before they took to eatin' baybees. :) They are the only large placental animal in the faunasphere of Australia, so are obviously a latecomer.

Were you perhaps thinking of jackals? There is some slight evidence of their participation in the creation of domestic dogs, particularly those lines that first appeared in Northern Africa.

You are exactly right about there being only a very few genes that differentiate what we call breeds. Only a few dozen are involved.
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Re: What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:54 am

So we have decided the greyhound that is depicted on cave walls in the mid-east is a descendant of the European Grey Wolf even though those people didn't know Europe existed. Supposedly, the greyhound genes are almost completely dominant over all other breeds of dogs and were the first dogs we can find records of back in time. This is all just what I have read since there were a couple of other breeds around when I was born even though some of you think there were still dinosaurs running around.

A breeding program to me is one where a person has a type of dog that they are trying to preserve or improve on. A good sign is when they are breeding three or more generations of their own dogs and occasionally bringing in new blood when and if needed but still staying true to their end goal. This is compared to the individual who breeds to the current popular dog with no concern as to a type or bloodline.

I like what Huston wrote, as I have been there an experienced much of the same thing. The difference though that he expressed as dog breeding is really the difficulty in breeding for intangibles such as performance, attitude, health, and such compared to breeding for a relatively simple physical quality such as type or looks. You will experience the same problems when that is applied to any animal and not just dogs. It is so much more complex and intangible that it becomes almost impossible to change the things you can see.

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Re: What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:11 am

Casey- I only come on here using my phone so I don't post things as detailed as Huston. I wasn't saying that the Dingo was the first dog but many modern pure breds derived from them. . I know of a new breed in Russia that still breeds back to them for their nose.

My main point was trying to get people to understand how closely related ALL dogs are.

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Re: What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by Wildweeds » Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:23 pm

Looking back on it,15 years ago I got a setter male for free,he was all screwed up,even as screwed up as he was you could see he had some really nice performance qualites that were hindered by the 3 owners who had him prior to me.He was a birdfinding machine and could dig em up where others would run right by.He had the shape and size,and a big heart with a burning desire to hunt,as evidenced by doing the dog houdini from a crate and a locked canopy to find us on the hillside one day when he was supposed to be taking a breather.Well another fellow had a really nice female of similar lines,she placed in every trial the guy entered her in and was no slouch herself at finding birds with a great full choke nose.That pairing netted 2 pups,I trialed my pick and it wasn't too long before I'd seen that I'd hit a home run in my decision to breed the parents,super stylish,hard running,birdfinding cooperative dogs came from it,also the two dogs were consistant,you knew exactly what to expect everytime you turned them loose.Then the hunt was on for a female to breed my pick to.None of the trialers would breed to the dog,mostly in part I feel because his pro handler.The dog beat them a bunch,and is small in stature but big in heart.It took me 5 females to find the "one". The sixth time was the charm,late last summer I had a litter,9 pups were whelped,I've got 5 left,3 others went to trialers.One of these trialers wanted one because I had been braced with him with the sire and he put on a show winning the stake on the day of the dogs retirement from trialing with 6 finds including a covey.He is happy as a clam at high tide with his pup.Another guy has his dog already broke at 13 months old,and commented how mature the dog acts,two of mine act like adult dogs as well.In my opinion and the pro who has fiddled with all three generations the consenses is that they are getting better and better.I put much less emphasis on the paper as the performance of the individual.Paper can lie,field performance and how they accept and retain training doesn't.I gambled on the first breeding because of an inkling,the second i felt pretty confident that I would get what I got.If I was to breed any one of the pups I've kept............................. who knows the wheels may just very well fall of the wagon.I Feel that 2 of the 9 were not better than the parents,but 7 are better.

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Re: What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by nikegundog » Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:09 pm

SHORTFAT wrote:Huston, that is one of the best posts I have seen on this forum in a long time. My question is, does your point of the difficulty in the time line of dog breeding explain why we still see the names of dogs from 40 years ago in our "champion" lines? What about the development of the pointing Lab lines? How long have they been around? (I'm asking here... cuz I don't know) Sadly around here a breeding program consists of a trailer court with 2 dozen pitbulls running around getting screwed by another dozen rotweilers... :evil: I'm not a breeder but I enjoy threads like this... 8)
As for pointing labs, you may want to check out Mayo Kellogg, his was the first breeding program that I am aware of.

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Re: What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by prairiefirepointers » Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:09 pm

Chukar12 wrote:
prairiefirepointers wrote:This ought to be interesting...
Recent topics just made me think about it...I am just wondering if doing it like Wehle did is a thing of the past? It makes me wonder if its necessary or productive, I am just not seeing performance dog dynasty's ...I mean in the Brittany world all roads lead to Ban Dee, but that was 40 years ago...I guess recently you could argue that NLB has made an impact...
Do people still line breed or in breed and keep a whole litter and sort the deal out?
Again I do know of instances in the pointer world but outside it...not so much
I have a linebred litter that is REALLY tight. 3/4 brother - Sister breeding. 3 of 7 pups went to homes yesterday and today to be FT. I'm keeping one and am in no hurry whatsoever to part with the other 2. One pup goes to a friend of mine I traded with straight across for a pup sired by CH Elhew Explorer... I guess we'll see what happens with em. I think I'm going to get away from cross breeding different lines and try to keep em as tight and pure as I can. As far as success? Time will tell. 8)
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Re: What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by Fester » Sun Oct 07, 2012 5:55 pm

Ferrell Miller told me years ago to bred the female to the best male you have the means to breed her too everytime, I know its more complicated than that but its a good rule of thumb I think
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Re: What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by campgsp » Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:15 am

Chuckar12 you are right breeding a nice dog to another does work. If a dog has all the right characteristic for. The particular breed then that's good. You can have a litter with the two top dogs in the country and throw sour pups it happeneds. Its all a risk.
But breedings that are done with dogs that have flaws like over bite for example isn't going to better what we have. Every breeding should be done so to better it not set it back.

Example people breeding to make money they're not really researching or even care. They just want some cash for pups. They can probably be excellent hunters and pass every test. But there could be something genetic that could have been stopped but it wasn't because of a Buck made.

It happeneds but there's nothing anyone can do to stop it. So we hope for the best of our dogs. As for me I research a pups background before I buy or if I breed. My first and la breeding took almost three years to put together. Ten studs I went through lots of hours of extensive research. Why because I want to help my breed of dog achieve the best it can. The gentleman of our past took their time making these dogs for us to hunt with today so I figure I owe them a thanks and to continue their efforts the best I can.

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Re: What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by cjhills » Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:55 am

A breeding program pretty much needs to be based on line breeding of some sort,maybe not real close but the same basic blood lines.
A program like Wehle's takes more time,finances and ruthlessness than most of us are willing or able to put into it. There is a bottom line for most of us and most need the dogs to at least pay their way. I don't see why so many people have a problem with that.
One major issue is that genetic problems are not showing up until the third generation and by that time there are many dogs produced by breeders who have commited the time, finances and promotion to a certain lines, on the ground.It is very difficult to start over.
Some titles such as hunt test sire and dam of the year promote this sort thing.
I freely admit I breed my dogs to show a profit. I also try very hard to improve line by trying to breed what I believe are the best dogs, within the general bloodlines I can find.
I read all the ads for perfect puppies that are for sale and wonder what I'm doing wrong. I haven't bred the perfect litter yet. I'm always somewhat disappointed and expect the next ltter to be better.
It's a tough game and you almost need to have a team. You won't have time and deep enough pockets to do it alone. CJ

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Re: What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by campgsp » Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:07 am

@ cjhills. It is possible to stop genetics before its to late. Inbreed coefficients.
Example I would stay below 25% if anything keep it at a maximum of 10%. - 15%
If your not sure how this works, it is the % of blood that is given to the pups from every ancestor in their pedigree. It can go back 2000 or more dogs. Now if the % is low say one or zero that gives that particular breeding a 99.9% chance of not having genetic problems. But when you get higher in %say 25 it means more of the same dogs were bred over of brother sister cusins etc. that could keep a deefect going

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Re: What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by nikegundog » Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:12 am

cjhills wrote:A breeding program pretty much needs to be based on line breeding of some sort,maybe not real close but the same basic blood lines.
A program like Wehle's takes more time,finances and ruthlessness than most of us are willing or able to put into it. There is a bottom line for most of us and most need the dogs to at least pay their way. I don't see why so many people have a problem with that.
One major issue is that genetic problems are not showing up until the third generation and by that time there are many dogs produced by breeders who have commited the time, finances and promotion to a certain lines, on the ground.It is very difficult to start over.
Some titles such as hunt test sire and dam of the year promote this sort thing.
I freely admit I breed my dogs to show a profit. I also try very hard to improve line by trying to breed what I believe are the best dogs, within the general bloodlines I can find.
I read all the ads for perfect puppies that are for sale and wonder what I'm doing wrong. I haven't bred the perfect litter yet. I'm always somewhat disappointed and expect the next ltter to be better.
It's a tough game and you almost need to have a team. You won't have time and deep enough pockets to do it alone. CJ
So a breeder like Candlewoods who is arguable one of the best breeders in the nation (if not the best) isn't a breeding program because they don't line breed?

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Re: What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by cjhills » Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:10 am

Not familiar with Candlewoods. Labs I think. Are all litters totally unrelated out crosses? I wouldn't say it's not a breeding program. I just don't understand how it works. But there is a lot of things I don't understand and if it works for you go for it. CJ

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Re: What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by campgsp » Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:26 am

Outcross is when you have a completely line bred or in bred pedigree and stud that dog to a whole different line or inbreed.

Line breeding is grandpa granddaughter grandma grand son etc.
inbreeding is brother. Sister mother son etc closer

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What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by ACooper » Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:44 am

campgsp wrote:@ cjhills. It is possible to stop genetics before its to late. Inbreed coefficients.
Example I would stay below 25% if anything keep it at a maximum of 10%. - 15%
If your not sure how this works, it is the % of blood that is given to the pups from every ancestor in their pedigree. It can go back 2000 or more dogs. Now if the % is low say one or zero that gives that particular breeding a 99.9% chance of not having genetic problems. But when you get higher in %say 25 it means more of the same dogs were bred over of brother sister cusins etc. that could keep a deefect going
99.9% chance of not having genetic problems? Please post your source.

You do understand that dogs can be unrelated and pass on genetic defects right?

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Re: What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by cjhills » Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:47 am

campgsp wrote:Outcross is when you have a completely line bred or in bred pedigree and stud that dog to a whole different line or inbreed.

Line breeding is grandpa granddaughter grandma grand son etc.
inbreeding is brother. Sister mother son etc closer
Linebreeding is a polite name for inbreeding.
I don't think you can breed 25 litters a year without inbreeding
Cj

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Re: What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by nikegundog » Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:55 am

cjhills wrote:Not familiar with Candlewoods. Labs I think. Are all litters totally unrelated out crosses? I wouldn't say it's not a breeding program. I just don't understand how it works. But there is a lot of things I don't understand and if it works for you go for it. CJ
Yes Labs, since 1990 they produced 11 National Champions. Not all litters are totally unrelated but from what I understand it is simply putting the two best dogs together they believe will make the best pups. With their track record I would say they have a "breeding program", without a line breeding process.

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Re: What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by cjhills » Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:08 am

campgsp wrote:@ cjhills. It is possible to stop genetics before its to late. Inbreed coefficients.
Example I would stay below 25% if anything keep it at a maximum of 10%. - 15%
If your not sure how this works, it is the % of blood that is given to the pups from every ancestor in their pedigree. It can go back 2000 or more dogs. Now if the % is low say one or zero that gives that particular breeding a 99.9% chance of not having genetic problems. But when you get higher in %say 25 it means more of the same dogs were bred over of brother sister cusins etc. that could keep a deefect going
You have more chance of two totally unrelated dogs carrying the same gene for a particular genetic problem as a inbreeding which the breeder has attempted to breed out the problem. That is the principal behind linebreeding. You are never going to come close to 99.9 no matter what you breed. It just don't work like that. They must have some matched genes. Cj

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Re: What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by Chukar12 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:19 am

Genetic defects can and do occur in low COI breedings...if two alleles match up with a genetic disorder then the predisposed sometimes latent problem will occur. There are "odds" either way you go, you either play the odds offensively or defensively depending on your purpose and palate for risk...no? Health issues occur but they are far and away the easiest to identify, we have tests, metrics and very public communications about hips, eyes, elbows, etc... other issues such as over bite can be identified by anybody who cares to pull back a lip. It's performance and behavior where the art and evasive science come into play in my opinion. Not only do you have to know what you are looking for, you have to take into account the environment and training of the specimen you are observing and considering.

In example, a lateral or come back to you gun dog with eye bulging style on game may win and be ultra competitive in the right hands. He or she may get bred a great deal because of the accolades, and you may see the behavior exacerbated in the off spring because of weaker training. I agree that a breeding program begins with personal goals. AKC breed clubs are too ambiguous to capture what an individual hopes to accomplish. It has just interested me that as I talk to people about breeding they focus on why this dog should be bred all from the positives they see, very few people other than some of the more successful spend very much time discussing how do i fix this little quirk or that...

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Re: What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by madmurph » Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:57 pm

Huston, I enjoyed reading your post.
You could live without a dog, but it would not be worthwhile.

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Re: What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by campgsp » Mon Oct 08, 2012 8:53 pm

I was using 0-25% so 99.9-0 was as an example to help identify between the difference. I knew this would happen I should have worded it better. Sorry. All I was trying to say is it is possible to help a breeding using this as a method. And yes two diffrent crosses can have the same problem but like i said in a previous post its all a risk. I learned everything I know from very successful breeders. I'm not out to be one. But when I have a litter its proven the pups are successful because of the methods I use and where taught. You do it yours. And like you said keep looking at guys with success wondering... why not mine?

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Re: What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by Garrison » Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:15 pm

Unfortunately it seems just paying customers. But looking on the bright side of things, the Silver or Fox Red English Pointing Labradoodle market is prime for the taking!

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Re: What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by hustonmc » Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:53 pm

You know what ultimatley constitutes a succesful breeding program..........................................ADVERTISING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Billy Joe Redneck from the dirty South sits on his porch full of dogs. He's raising pups from a line of dogs his gramps started in the 20's. Quail are getting harder and harder to find so his dogs better run wide, run all day and handle each covey with all manners intact. Because he's in the toolies he knocks anything that doesn't have what it takes in the head, and throws it in an old abandend well. Meanwhile he studies and examines each dog with the precision of a surgeon, decades of expirience being put to use. He knows what works, he's seen thousands in his life time. He can't turn on a computer or count to 30, but by god, he knows a good dog when he sees one. Yet, he doesn't sell any pups and if he does it's to the neighbors that trade for a bottle of moonshine or a butcher hog, so when it comes down to it no one really gets a chance to see what kind of dogs he has, no titles, no hall of fame, maybe not even registered.

If you are gifted with the silver tounge and a way with people, you have a little money and like bird dogs, you've got it made. Just like everyone else you have a chance to get lucky and accidently end up with a decent dog with some "names" in the pedigree. You work hard and put a title on that dog, which happened to be the first pointing dog you've ever owned. You study some pedigrees and purchase a brood bitch to "match" up with your dog. You preach and go on and on about your fine dogs and their abilities and get have yourself a litter, luckily you put one of those pups in the hands of someone that is willing to spend about $10,000+ on that dog to be developed, trained, campaigned by a pro. Pup goes out and wins and wins big because he was brought up to his maximum ability, you now have another sales pitch of what kind of dogs you breed. You retained the breeding rights on that dog, breed it to about 20 bitches and come up with a few nice pups. Again place those pups into the hands of someone willing to roll out the dough and now you have 3 generations of winners, you have yourself a line now!!!!!!!!! Lets linebreed that pup with a handfull of half sisters that didn't cut it from that first winning pup, and by just the magic of pure law of averages you get yourself another pup that was developed right and BAM!!!!! fourth generation of winners. You can't breed enough pups to meet the demand. The majority of people that are spending $750-$1000 hunt 4 weekends a year and couldn't be happier with their new charge.

Soooooooooooo, the betterment of the breed. Who had a greater influence on the breed? If you look back into your pedigree whos dogs show up? Whos the more succesful breeder?

Now before everyone gets in a huff, I know these examples are each on the far end of the spectrum. But I'm trying to paint a picture and I think this gives a good example. Again like I described earlier in the post above, those that have an end goal and have seen enough dogs to properly identify traits and enough generations to determine where they come and how to get them out, those are the good breeders, and there is plenty out there. If you look at this year Ames AA National Champion, not a line bred dog at all. Nolans Last Bullet, not a line bred dog at all. But could you say the people that bred those dogs had a succesful breeding program.......they produced winners, I haven't. Line breeding works when you identify a special trait and breed for it, such as a dog with an exotic heads crank, but falls apart when all those dogs run with a dead tail. Because of the emotional stand point it's just human nature to want a pup out of that really good dog we have. Don't hold that against anybody. Those dogs are just as capable to produce as any, perfect example those dogs I just mentioned.

So with that said, we've established that a good dog can come from anywhere if produced by healthy, sound, working parents and developed with lots of birds and little pressure. What really constitutes a breeding program, IMO, advertising.

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Re: What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by cjhills » Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:13 am

campgsp wrote:I was using 0-25% so 99.9-0 was as an example to help identify between the difference. I knew this would happen I should have worded it better. Sorry. All I was trying to say is it is possible to help a breeding using this as a method. And yes two diffrent crosses can have the same problem but like i said in a previous post its all a risk. I learned everything I know from very successful breeders. I'm not out to be one. But when I have a litter its proven the pups are successful because of the methods I use and where taught. You do it yours. And like you said keep looking at guys with success wondering... why not mine?
I assume this post was aimed at me.
I'm not looking at guys with success and wondering why not me. I'm looking at web sites that advertise perfect dogs and thinking........ yea right!!!!!!
I would be willing to bet that every breeder who really takes this seriously, expects his next litter to be better than his last and if you are honest with yourself and know what you are looking for you will be a bit disappointed and hope for better luck next time. Incidentally,my clients are very happy with their dogs,as I am with mine. I just think I can do better. It is extremely difficult with all the theories on breeding and breeding programs, luck and Mother nature plays a major roll.
If we look at Candlewood. She bred 25 litters a year, now she is doing less, if she averages 6 puppies a litter,probably more for labs, thats 150 a year from 1990 to now 2012= 22 years=3300 puppies. These dogs produced 11 national champions ,with the best retriever trainer in the country, maybe the world, and all the right conditions.What happened to the other 3289 puppies. I'm not putting down Candlewood, I am sure they know way more than I do about breeding dogs and have very good dogs.I haven't seen her pedigrees but I would bet there is some line breeding. To me it would be silly not to. I'm just pointing out how difficult it is to have and maintain a breeding program. When you get where you want, you can't stay there. If you are not trying to improve you are regressing . have a great day. Cj

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Re: What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by 4ShotB » Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:58 am

hustonmc wrote:You know what ultimatley constitutes a succesful breeding program..........................................ADVERTISING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Billy Joe Redneck from the dirty South sits on his porch full of dogs. He's raising pups from a line of dogs his gramps started in the 20's. Quail are getting harder and harder to find so his dogs better run wide, run all day and handle each covey with all manners intact. Because he's in the toolies he knocks anything that doesn't have what it takes in the head, and throws it in an old abandend well. Meanwhile he studies and examines each dog with the precision of a surgeon, decades of expirience being put to use. He knows what works, he's seen thousands in his life time. He can't turn on a computer or count to 30, but by god, he knows a good dog when he sees one. Yet, he doesn't sell any pups and if he does it's to the neighbors that trade for a bottle of moonshine or a butcher hog, so when it comes down to it no one really gets a chance to see what kind of dogs he has, no titles, no hall of fame, maybe not even registered.
That's my granddaddy you just described. Did you ever hunt with him? :D

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Re: What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by SCT » Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:13 am

Good post Cj, thanks for looking into that. Your point crosses to pointer lines as well. I like long term line breeding because if the breeder is careful and conscientious his/her dogs are going to breed true (cookie cutters) with a high percentage of puppies carrying those desired traits. Breeding two "great" dogs probably provides a decent chance of producing some very nice pups, but not nearly as often as line breeding for the best traits of those two dogs. Granted, there has to be some serious culling when keeping only the pups with those traits, but down the line you can count more and more on what you're producing.

Sometimes I wish I had the resources and space to try some line breeding, but, like I said earlier, I'm thankful there are men that have done it so I don't have to.

A breeding program, for instance, can also mean someone who's trying to create a pointer that runs shorter by nature for foot hunters. I'm a foot hunter and prefer big running pointers, but I know of one or two breeders breeding range out of pointers, at least that's what they advertise. As long as they're keeping the dogs healthy, with lots of drive and a good nose then more power to them. I'd consider that a "breeding program". Like a past President use to say..."Stay the course". Sounds like a good line for a breeding program.

Steve

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Re: What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by campgsp » Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:53 am

Yes CJ good post i think you hit it right on the nail

Bettering what we have, not setting it back. Constitutes a breeding program.

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Re: What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by nikegundog » Tue Oct 09, 2012 8:16 am

cjhills wrote:
campgsp wrote:I was using 0-25% so 99.9-0 was as an example to help identify between the difference. I knew this would happen I should have worded it better. Sorry. All I was trying to say is it is possible to help a breeding using this as a method. And yes two diffrent crosses can have the same problem but like i said in a previous post its all a risk. I learned everything I know from very successful breeders. I'm not out to be one. But when I have a litter its proven the pups are successful because of the methods I use and where taught. You do it yours. And like you said keep looking at guys with success wondering... why not mine?
I assume this post was aimed at me.
I'm not looking at guys with success and wondering why not me. I'm looking at web sites that advertise perfect dogs and thinking........ yea right!!!!!!
I would be willing to bet that every breeder who really takes this seriously, expects his next litter to be better than his last and if you are honest with yourself and know what you are looking for you will be a bit disappointed and hope for better luck next time. Incidentally,my clients are very happy with their dogs,as I am with mine. I just think I can do better. It is extremely difficult with all the theories on breeding and breeding programs, luck and Mother nature plays a major roll.
If we look at Candlewood. She bred 25 litters a year, now she is doing less, if she averages 6 puppies a litter,probably more for labs, thats 150 a year from 1990 to now 2012= 22 years=3300 puppies. These dogs produced 11 national champions ,with the best retriever trainer in the country, maybe the world, and all the right conditions.What happened to the other 3289 puppies. I'm not putting down Candlewood, I am sure they know way more than I do about breeding dogs and have very good dogs.I haven't seen her pedigrees but I would bet there is some line breeding. To me it would be silly not to. I'm just pointing out how difficult it is to have and maintain a breeding program. When you get where you want, you can't stay there. If you are not trying to improve you are regressing . have a great day. Cj
This was the way I was looking at it, Candlewoods have produced 25% of all Retriever National Champions since 1990. Is their another breeder in the Country that can even come close to those numbers? I'm asking the question because honestly I don't know. I'm sure you are aware CJ, but for those who don't know about retriever trials, all the retrievers breeds together compete against each other and at the end of the year only one NFC and one NAFC gets titled. Looking at the figures over 100,000 registered Labrador a year, and Candlewoods puts out about 150 (many of which are bench bred) and they account for 25% of Champions I would say they have one heck of a program.

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Re: What Constitutes a Breeding Program?

Post by Wildweeds » Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:58 am

pumping out a bunch of pups and having a small percentage actually be something is what is known as..............." Throw enough poop at the wall and some of it bound to stick" method.

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