What Makes a Good Trial?

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MillerClemsonHD
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What Makes a Good Trial?

Post by MillerClemsonHD » Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:24 pm

We will be starting up some new trials in SC (if we can ever get approval from the AKC quick easy process ;)) and I wanted to get some feedback from other people who trial to see what is important to them. What makes you go back to a trial next year. The grounds, the food, the people running it, the competition, what draws you back? The members of our club are already involved with a few other trials, but most of those are new. We have had success getting a good trial together through the legwork of contacting people and creating the interest. Now we want to make sure the ones we already have and any new ones started will be long lasting trials. Thoughts????


Please don't highjack my thread and leave it for feedback from people who trial.

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Re: What Makes a Good Trial?

Post by Cajun Casey » Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:37 pm

Judges, grounds, ease of travel, quality of birds. Could care less about food, socializing or bling.
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Re: What Makes a Good Trial?

Post by ElhewPointer » Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:42 pm

Your last line on your post is awesome. And guess who the first person to reply was. :roll:

Anyway, I think it is a combo of many things. People come to different trials for different reasons. There are your die-hards who are there to win and they want the best judges and a fair shot at the win. Others are there for a good weekend. Maybe a silent auction or raffle, good food, drink and running dogs. I guess I would tell you to look at your target market and appeal to them.

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Re: What Makes a Good Trial?

Post by Winchey » Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:58 pm

Atmosphere is most inportant to me. When you have a lot of people who have to many drinks, like to laugh and don't take things over seriously it makes for a good time. Mostly do wild bird trials up here so having lots of birds makes it more fun imo.

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Re: What Makes a Good Trial?

Post by original mngsp » Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:59 pm

There are lots of reasons that different people come to trials, but there are a couple of things that will surely have them not show up.

1. Judges. You don't need to have the most prestigious judges in the country to keep people coming to your trials. What you need is a good honest judging panel. Most people that have trialed for awhile know that most judges like a certain type of dog. Even if that persons dog doesn't match what the judge usually likes they still wont be chased away as long as they feel they are getting a fair shake. By far the vast majority of people that judge trials are on the up and up and are honest arbiters of what they see.

2. Birds. Spend the money and try to get the best birds you can. People spend a lot of time and money getting their dogs ready to compete and to be faced with immature poorly flying birds isn't respectful of their time and/or money. Couple of trials with substandard birds your club will get a bad rep and people may look to go elsewhere.

Nearly everything else is tolerable if those two are taken care of.

One last note. Make sure if you have people attending that are new to trials, take the time to make them feel welcome, introduce them to the club members working the event and make sure your club members are always willing to answer a newbies question.

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Re: What Makes a Good Trial?

Post by phermes1 » Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:02 pm

Judges are of course very important. Birds are as well, although at least around here, there aren't many bird sources, and if they're bad birds, there's not a lot you can do about it.

I have to add a general category of reliability. Does the club in question generally run a well-organized trial? Do I know what I can expect out of one of their events?
I avoid some clubs primarily because they enjoy changing things at the last minute; judges, courses, order of stakes, etc. People make plans based on what the premium says. I might choose not to enter a stake that's on Friday because I can't take off work, or I skip the last stake on Sunday because I have a long drive, or maybe I enter the same 2 dog in 2 adult stakes because I know there' s puppy stake in between them, so they're assured of getting enough rest. I might skip a stake because I don't like a judge, or enter one specifically because of who will be in the saddle. Changing stuff like that makes a difference to me and likely a lot of the other competitors.
It just demonstrates a real lack of respect for the rules and a lack of consideration for the competitors. Put some thought into how you want the trial to run, build the premium based on that, and stick to if it at all possible.
Obviously, if you have real emergencies or unavoidable situations that you force you to change your plans, that's different. But when the same thing happens again and again, always with the same club - you soon learn to look for other places to go. It's just not worth the hassle.
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Re: What Makes a Good Trial?

Post by orbirdhunter » Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:04 pm

I'm pretty new to the trial scene. But what made me feel right at home and wanting to come back was a few things...

#1. Everybody to a person was very friendly and very helpful. Everyone made me feel welcome, people walked me right through the process etc. It made a big difference to me when i was out running a brace, pretty much clueless and the other handler is giving me hints, telling me how to handle, how to read the dogs etc when he/she could have been just handling his dog.
#2. Organization and ground crew help. Its really easy and less stressful at a trial when the birds are always bagged and ready to go, planters are lined up for each course, marshals are running each course keeping track of the running order, alerting handlers a brace ahead of time that they are up next etc,etc...
Having some snacks/food whatever definitely doesn't hurt.....

Obviously i didn't mention about the courses themselves, the planting, the judges etc, as a relative newbie these things don't mean as much to me now as they probably will in another yr or 2. But having judges that are nice,helpful and willing to share what they saw are nice.

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Re: What Makes a Good Trial?

Post by Gertie » Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:38 pm

I'm also pretty new to the whole thing and have only been to a handful of trials. With that said, I agree with everything that's been mentioned so far but would also like to add that it's really nice to have some good signs out on the road guiding people into the grounds, especially if they're difficult to find. I know of one person who missed a trial because they couldn't find it :oops: The only thing I have seen folks at the few trials I've been to get really upset about was having their brace start without them. It's understood that it's the trialer's job to be on the line in time but having a field marshall give them a courtesy heads up is nice and demonstrates a nicely organized trial.
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Re: What Makes a Good Trial?

Post by slistoe » Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:38 pm

The best trials are the ones where I win!!!

I think that organization and communication to the participants is one of the first things to setting a successful trial.

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Re: What Makes a Good Trial?

Post by cjuve » Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:40 pm

In addition to the above mentioned items good food and coffee goes a long way. :lol:

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Re: What Makes a Good Trial?

Post by Cajun Casey » Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:46 pm

phermes1 wrote:Judges are of course very important. Birds are as well, although at least around here, there aren't many bird sources, and if they're bad birds, there's not a lot you can do about it.

I have to add a general category of reliability. Does the club in question generally run a well-organized trial? Do I know what I can expect out of one of their events?
I avoid some clubs primarily because they enjoy changing things at the last minute; judges, courses, order of stakes, etc. People make plans based on what the premium says. I might choose not to enter a stake that's on Friday because I can't take off work, or I skip the last stake on Sunday because I have a long drive, or maybe I enter the same 2 dog in 2 adult stakes because I know there' s puppy stake in between them, so they're assured of getting enough rest. I might skip a stake because I don't like a judge, or enter one specifically because of who will be in the saddle. Changing stuff like that makes a difference to me and likely a lot of the other competitors.
It just demonstrates a real lack of respect for the rules and a lack of consideration for the competitors. Put some thought into how you want the trial to run, build the premium based on that, and stick to if it at all possible.
Obviously, if you have real emergencies or unavoidable situations that you force you to change your plans, that's different. But when the same thing happens again and again, always with the same club - you soon learn to look for other places to go. It's just not worth the hassle.
I have noticed AKC clubs that use Flexible Format seem to be losing entries and even whole stakes. It's definitely a plus to be able to depend on the premium, especially if you are entering only one stake in a
multi-day event.
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Re: What Makes a Good Trial?

Post by Boxa » Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:50 pm

I agree with much of what's been said already, but would add that GOOD GROUNDS where your dogs can showcase their abilities are a definite draw. Couple that with good, fair, honest judges who give every dog a fair shake from the line, ample birds, and reasonable access to something to eat and a place to lay your head at night are big positives in my mind.
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Re: What Makes a Good Trial?

Post by DonF » Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:30 pm

Good grounds, good birds and good judges are the ticket. origional mngsp hit it on the judges. With that in place, signs in would really be nice for people new to the trial grounds. Getting people to the line on time makes the trial flow better. I think to many entry's can blindside a trial. Tuff getting a hundred entry's done before dark. The food is a great plus. Usually the club put's on a great sandwich feed for lunch and a good dinner. The awards at most the trials I go to, have happy hour, then awards and then usually a great meal. I think the reason for huge trials is the cost is high and I suspect insurance is high particularly if birds are being shot.

On another note, look for sponsors to help with awards. Seems like dog food companies are always willing to pony up with feed for awards in exchange for seeing their name and/or bags of feed in the awards photo's. The spring trial I went to in Washington this year had Buck Knives for a sponsor. They provided the nicest judges gift's I've ever seen. Very expensive knife embossed with the Clubs name and the judges name. Don't know if they provided more. Get sponsors,use good grounds, get good judges put out a decent lunch and dinner. No need to go overboard on the food but should be nice. I think the members of the clubs trials I go to donate the food and heelp serving and making it. Oh yes, have a cooler or two full of those little cheap water bottles with ice in them.
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Re: What Makes a Good Trial?

Post by BMURPH » Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:01 pm

Besides what the others have stated, which are good, try to run an efficent trial. What I mean by this is start on time, be organized! Been to too many trials where they screw around all morning long then rush in the afternoon trying to get finished before dark. Remember just because you may have only 1 dog to take care or one horse, many people- not just the pros (who may have 20-30 animals) will have multiple animals to feed and take care of. They do not want to eat dinner at 9 o'clock. Same with Sunday. You might live 20 miles from the grounds but some of them have a haul to make and dont want to get home at midnight, When they should have been home at 6. And as stated GOOD JUDGES!

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Re: What Makes a Good Trial?

Post by Sharon » Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:29 pm

original mngsp wrote:There are lots of reasons that different people come to trials, but there are a couple of things that will surely have them not show up.

1. Judges. You don't need to have the most prestigious judges in the country to keep people coming to your trials. What you need is a good honest judging panel. Most people that have trialed for awhile know that most judges like a certain type of dog. Even if that persons dog doesn't match what the judge usually likes they still wont be chased away as long as they feel they are getting a fair shake. By far the vast majority of people that judge trials are on the up and up and are honest arbiters of what they see.

2. Birds. Spend the money and try to get the best birds you can. People spend a lot of time and money getting their dogs ready to compete and to be faced with immature poorly flying birds isn't respectful of their time and/or money. Couple of trials with substandard birds your club will get a bad rep and people may look to go elsewhere.

Nearly everything else is tolerable if those two are taken care of.

One last note. Make sure if you have people attending that are new to trials, take the time to make them feel welcome, introduce them to the club members working the event and make sure your club members are always willing to answer a newbies question.

Well said. X2

3. Start on time . Nothing bugs me more about trials then getting there at 7 in case you are first for a 7:30 start and the trial organizer wanders in an hour later.

Suggestion : Don't take folks off the mailing list who haven't shown up that year. Things happen and it is likely they will be back, if they continue to get trial info.

Put out the money to have non local judges. A small new club can go up in flames if the same 4 club member judges are used week after week.
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Re: What Makes a Good Trial?

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:35 pm

To my mind there are many things that can go into making a good trial.

I go to a trial to run dogs, so I am less concerned about the amenities, but lack of permanent inside bathroom facilities will all but assure that women and childen will not be there. On cold and blustery days it is really nice to have a warm dry place to hang out. A hot cup of soup sure feels good on such a day as well. Homemade is great, but out of a can is fine too, as long as it is hot.

As has been said, good grounds, a thoughtfully laid out course, the best birds you can get, knowlegeable, impartial judges and folks who are willing to help out a newcomer are key to a good experience by the participants.

One absolutely key component to having a good trial, in my opinion, is a knowledgeable bird planter, or better...two or three such folks, so one person does not have to do it all. I would say that a good birdplanter is second only to good judges in terms of making a trial fair for all.

That segues into another issue that has implications down the road. There are almost always not enough folks to help out and the ones that do help can get burned out. Have a plan in place so that kitchen help has a chance to get out and see some of the trial, the bird planter will not have to plant for more than a half day, etc. More hands do make for light work, if it is organized beforehand, and giving folks a chance to enjoy the trial instead of expecting them to work it from start to finish will keep the good workers coming back.

If your club has an older member or two that are not active trialers any longer, that person might be a good candidate for "greeter". New folks can be directed to such a person so that their questions can be answered without interrupting the chairman or other club persons who are trying to move the trial along. That can make the non-active trialer feel needed and useful, make the newcomer feel welcomed and wanted and help the chairman keep their sanity.

RayG

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Re: What Makes a Good Trial?

Post by snips » Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:52 pm

Agree on bird planter.Can make or break a trial.
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Re: What Makes a Good Trial?

Post by Hunter » Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:15 pm

My only suggestion other than whats above is take care of your judges during the trial, to many times they ride hard all day and people forget to bring them a drink or snack thruought the day. If you take care of them they will take care of you and you will probably get them back again if you need them. Also have good gunners for any callback nothing is worse than 3 or 4 shots at one bird. Otherwise good luck with the trial.
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Re: What Makes a Good Trial?

Post by Stoneface » Fri Oct 26, 2012 9:43 pm

I am by no mistake a beginner when it comes to trialing, so I may have a good perspective here. I have been to AF, AKC and NSTRA trials, but no more than a handful of each so far.

What I like:
1) Good, lay back judges who don't act like they're the hall monitor with their mouth on the whistle. Good judges have made some of my trials real pleasures.
2) Good birds and enough of them. I know you can't buy birds weeks or months in advance and gauge how many to buy on the weather of the trial because you don't know what it will be, but it really sucks when you go out and only ever watch dogs run around a field. Then when they lock up and the birds suck all together, really puts a damper on things.
3) I actually do prefer for there to be stuff going on at camp. I don't own a horse, so unless I'm riding along in a Mule with someone I can spend more time at camp than I like. It's nice when there's stuff to do, especially with you're a beginner with just one or two dogs to run all day long. Not saying I'm going to stop trialing because it gets boring at camp, but I'm a lifer and a lot of the newbies need a little more bait before they get hooked and it wouldn't hurt with the veterans, either.
4) Friendly hosts.
5) Workable grounds.

What I don't like:
1) Drama and back-biting. I went north about a year ago and had a great time because, heck, I got to watch dogs run, talk dogs, etc. But, there was a lot of mud that got slung, especially by one person in particular. I drove the dog truck some and this guy sat on the back and just talked trash about other trialers and officials to everyone who rode back there between braces. I've come to know this guy a little more and he's just a fool and an idiot overall, but I have often thought since then what kind of impression that would make on someone that was just trying out trialing because they were testing the waters. I plan on going back to rerun Moxy just because she did a terrible job and I'd like to validate her, but beyond that I don't know if I'd go back.

Hope this helps! Good luck!
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Re: What Makes a Good Trial?

Post by DonF » Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:49 am

How about a major gripe? Seem's to happen a lot is that handler's are late getting to the line with their dogs. Sometimes it is the clubs fault. If you have to wait on a brace to get in for a handler to get his next dog and then get to the line, it really slows things down. probably be a good idea to deal with that situation at the draw. If the possibility of that comes up, throw the name back in and choose another or, drop that one down a brace and pull another in it's spot. I think the time limit for getting to the line is 5 min from when the brace is called. The club can drop you for being late but I've never seen it happen.
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Re: What Makes a Good Trial?

Post by ultracarry » Sat Oct 27, 2012 10:09 am

All are good opinions.

Major gripe!!!! When you get the entry forms, send a receipt or call the person to let them know you received them!!!

A good idea is to assign someone as a contact for additional questions for someone new so they can get answers the secretary does not know.

If you don't have enough help send an email and ask for it.

Other than that, I have never had bad food at a trial, never met someone that was a complete arse, haven't had a complaint about the grounds, and met some really cool people.

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Re: What Makes a Good Trial?

Post by Cajun Casey » Sat Oct 27, 2012 10:46 am

Online entry rocks, just so you know.
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Re: What Makes a Good Trial?

Post by shags » Sat Oct 27, 2012 10:50 am

Not if you're the secretary and have keep track of and print those things.

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Re: What Makes a Good Trial?

Post by Sharon » Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:37 pm

ultracarry wrote:All are good opinions.

Major gripe!!!! When you get the entry forms, send a receipt or call the person to let them know you received them!!!

A good idea is to assign someone as a contact for additional questions for someone new so they can get answers the secretary does not know.

If you don't have enough help send an email and ask for it.

Other than that, I have never had bad food at a trial, never met someone that was a complete arse, haven't had a complaint about the grounds, and met some really cool people.
That is really something . You must have special people in your trials. :) I had a guy who spent the brace time telling the Judge what my dog was doing wrong. :roll:
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Re: What Makes a Good Trial?

Post by jimbo&rooster » Sat Oct 27, 2012 5:16 pm

ultracarry wrote: Major gripe!!!! When you get the entry forms, send a receipt or call the person to let them know you received them!!!

.

YES!!!! ^^^^^ Even a quick email, I dont need anything special.

When you have to drive 6-7hrs to get to a trial, and take a day off of work, it helps ease the tension to know that your entry has been accepted before you get their and see the running order.

Also I want to see clear directions printed to get to the grounds on the premium. Signage to the grounds isnt a bad idea either.

Other than that I agree with most everything I have seen here.
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Re: What Makes a Good Trial?

Post by shags » Sat Oct 27, 2012 5:33 pm

You guys need to call or email the secretary...it's your responsibility to check your entries. Plus, it's only one call or email for you, but 50 or 60 for him/her. The number and email is on the premium :D
And if you ask nicely, you could get emailed a running order beforehand too :D

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Re: What Makes a Good Trial?

Post by jimbo&rooster » Sat Oct 27, 2012 5:45 pm

shags wrote:You guys need to call or email the secretary...it's your responsibility to check your entries. Plus, it's only one call or email for you, but 50 or 60 for him/her. The number and email is on the premium :D
And if you ask nicely, you could get emailed a running order beforehand too :D

I dont disagree with that. It sounded like a great Idea though!

Jim
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Re: What Makes a Good Trial?

Post by Stoneface » Sat Oct 27, 2012 7:22 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:Online entry rocks, just so you know.
Ha. The only thing Felecia and I have ever agreed on! I did this when I entered Moxy in the Tulsa Irish Setter club's spring trial and it was awesome. Took about five minutes, I had immediate eMail confirmation and it was a total pleasure.
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Re: What Makes a Good Trial?

Post by ultracarry » Sun Oct 28, 2012 12:21 am

shags wrote:You guys need to call or email the secretary...it's your responsibility to check your entries. Plus, it's only one call or email for you, but 50 or 60 for him/her. The number and email is on the premium :D
And if you ask nicely, you could get emailed a running order beforehand too :D
But I do call and email.... So to have the secretary reply with a "yea" or "na" or yes or no would be of great help.

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Re: What Makes a Good Trial?

Post by shags » Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:01 am

ultracarry wrote:
shags wrote:You guys need to call or email the secretary...it's your responsibility to check your entries. Plus, it's only one call or email for you, but 50 or 60 for him/her. The number and email is on the premium :D
And if you ask nicely, you could get emailed a running order beforehand too :D
But I do call and email.... So to have the secretary reply with a "yea" or "na" or yes or no would be of great help.
Agreed! To not reply is just rude.

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Re: What Makes a Good Trial?

Post by cmc274 » Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:44 am

I want to see good dogs and good bird planting. I want the judges to have to really split hairs when it comes to placements. No one is inspired when only a few dogs make it around clean. The things other folks mentioned will hopefully attract handlers with top talent. I also want to see a dog that fills up the country be rewarded with finds at the limits of the course, places where it would be an effort to plant birds in. Widely dispersed birds may (will) result in feedback that there arent enough birds, but you cant please all of the people all of the time.

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Re: What Makes a Good Trial?

Post by phermes1 » Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:14 am

Cajun Casey wrote:I have noticed AKC clubs that use Flexible Format seem to be losing entries and even whole stakes. It's definitely a plus to be able to depend on the premium, especially if you are entering only one stake in a multi-day event.
That's the main reason I opposed the flexible format when it was proposed and still do. I felt it would get abused, and that's exactly what's happened.

Some clubs think the flexible format means that they can change things around at any time during the course of the trial. NOT so. Any changes according to the flexible format have to occur at or before closing - not on Saturday afternoon mid-trial.
But then, the people making such changes are rarely those that are interested in the rules to begin with, so why should that stop them.
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MillerClemsonHD
Rank: Champion
Posts: 345
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:21 pm
Location: Greenville South Carolina

Re: What Makes a Good Trial?

Post by MillerClemsonHD » Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:45 pm

Thanks for all of the good replies. I know what I like, but wanted to be sure it was along the same lines as what others view as important.

For me,
1. I want judges who pay attention to the stakes they are judging. Willing to help save a new person from them self if they are about to make a mistake, but don't spend the whole brace telling people what to do. I want to see the best dogs getting their picture taken at the end of the day no matter who is blowing the whistle. To me consistency goes a long ways here. Don't allow a dog to stay down and then pick another up for the same thing.

2. I want to see good grounds, where dogs have to hunt to find birds and can showcase their skills.

3. Birds/and Bird planter. Hate when birds don't fly but a few feet or not at all. I want to see birds being found where wild birds would be found off the horse path. Nothing exciting about watching a dog race down a horse path and have 2 finds while standing in the path and never go look for a bird. Wish we could have more wild bird trials in the south east and eliminate this part of the discussion.

4. Courteous people running the trial. Nothing worse than dealing with a secretary that is unpleasant, line marshall busy yelling at people to get to the line, and disorganization. To me a little communication the day of the trial, Friday and Saturday night go a long ways especially for the people in the first few braces. This doesn't mean that a few folks complain about where birds are planted or something else that you change it to make them happy. Take the feedback to the committee, judges etc before making a decision to be sure it is right for the club and the trial.

5. Social- I think it is important to have a place for people to gather, new folks to feel welcome to ask questions about what is going on. People who are comfortable, feel welcome, and enjoy themselves and the company are more likely to come back. I think hosting a dinner is a good thing. The more fun I have the more willing I am to come back.

Online Entries- Was this done through a program, just allowed you to send your entries by email? I have been investigating how to take entry payments online. Would you be willing to pay $2 per entry to be able to pay through paypal? I know I would because I hate mailing checks. If it wasn't for bird dogs I wouldn't even have a checkbook.

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Cajun Casey
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Posts: 4243
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:59 pm
Location: Tulsa, OK

Re: What Makes a Good Trial?

Post by Cajun Casey » Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:57 pm

One of our club members is a software geek and custom wrote the entry program. PM me e-mail and phone info and I'll get ypu in touch.
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.

slistoe
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3843
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:23 pm

Re: What Makes a Good Trial?

Post by slistoe » Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:22 pm

http://www.entryexpress.net/
Has anyone asked this fellow if he would do pointing trials - or maybe he does.

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Brazosvalleyvizslas
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1340
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:20 am
Location: Soon2be, Texas

Re: What Makes a Good Trial?

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:52 pm

Fieldeventsoftware.com. If each club had this program things may be much easier. Has anyone tried this program?

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Brazosvalleyvizslas
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1340
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 9:20 am
Location: Soon2be, Texas

Re: What Makes a Good Trial?

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:57 pm

Slistoe, I believe they only do labs but google "oakline entries" and see if that fits the bill.

shags
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Posts: 2717
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:57 pm

Re: What Makes a Good Trial?

Post by shags » Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:30 pm

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:Fieldeventsoftware.com. If each club had this program things may be much easier. Has anyone tried this program?
I believe that program is one used by one of our local clubs. If it is, I've been told that it takes a lot of the grunt work away because you can print stickers for judges' books instead of writing them, no more blue sheets, etc. However, I noticed that at this club's trials, the same dogs are braced together time after time. The sec'y told me that it was some kind of quirk with the program. I don't know whether the problem has been fixed.

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