Relocating at the GSP Nationals?

[slistoe]

Your stories are almost as cool as your pictures. Thanks for the posting.

[dan v]

Joe & Doc bring the goods.

I'd echo Doc on the NP deal...once you have one, you darn sure are in protection mode, and it effects everything...'least it feels like it does.

[hi-tailyn]

Not to completely switch topics,

With a few of the amateur gsp guys on here.

We started talking at the Amateur Nats last week again about changing the Amateur to a one hour Championship with call back for retrieve.

We will next year start killing on course the first bird pointed. Both chuckar and quail.

Problem, is covey flushes and dogs backing while killing on course. We had a couple very nice dogs taken out, due to everyone not knowing what the other judge was thinking. Dogs going for retrieve then having STF then chasing bird across a 200 acre field and into the woods. Some thought he was picked up and they pulled tracker.

Would be less personnel needed as gunners for each brace.

Safer with the large galleries that follow the Nats anymore.

Easier for amateurs to get to trial and leave if necessary to get back to work.

The hour would take the same amount of time as the two series takes now.

Just less people needed to help out it on.

[Joe Amatulli]

Scott I remember when Dougy boy was throwing dogs out that pushed up birds during the retrieve and that is what you get when you have non GSP people judging. When a dog is in retrieve mode, that is a major command it doesn’t matter how many birds that dog puts in the air or how far he chases them, his total focus should be, get that bird. The problem comes in when he puts up a bird takes it for a ride, comes back without it and now you need to get the dog to retrieve the dead bird. Personally I think the judges need to give a lot of leeway to the handler and the dog to get that dead one.
I like the idea of kill on course, but it does make it a bit more challenging.

[hi-tailyn]

Scott I remember when Dougy boy was throwing dogs out that pushed up birds during the retrieve and that is what you get when you have non GSP people judging. When a dog is in retrieve mode, that is a major command it doesn’t matter how many birds that dog puts in the air or how far he chases them, his total focus should be, get that bird. The problem comes in when he puts up a bird takes it for a ride, comes back without it and now you need to get the dog to retrieve the dead bird. Personally I think the judges need to give a lot of leeway to the handler and the dog to get that dead one.
I like the idea of kill on course, but it does make it a bit more challenging.

These were both gsp guys that saw this take place. STF during relocate is ok, but STF and chase with retrieve is not. Go figure. :roll:

I just mentioned it to one or two other amateurs, then through out the amateur and futurity I had other amateurs that wanted to know how they could get it started talking about it and how to change it to one hour. I heard no neg. feed back from any of the amateurs at the Nats.

[Jager]

I for one will NOT come back and compete at the GSPCA Amateur under the current format. But the current format is not the only reason I don't have this trial as a high priority.( I'd rather spend my vacation time away from my business to compete in NGSPA) However, if it were to change to one-hour with call back it may then come near the top of my list. Just my .02 cents worth as an amateur. I have been there and to win is still a helluva accomplishment.

[roberts]

I would also like to see a hour stake with a call back.
I also rode the brace you are talking about hi-talyn. What I didn't understand was on the first find the dog had the gunner killed the bird the handler collared the dog then the gunner said "I killed the bird" then the handler let the dog go for the retrive. Dog ran past the dead bird and continued hunting handler called point again but by the time anyone got there the dog was moving again, while this was going on the gunner picked up the dead bird and we just moved on. Question is why wasn't the dog picked up when the handler collared him? Also, why wasn't the dog picked up after the tracker was pulled out? Was it possible they wanted this dog to place? Just wondering what your thoughts are.

[MillerClemsonHD]

I have had situations where I have made the decision both ways. Last trial I was at I took the NP and went on. My dog pointed on an edge. I walked up and watched 30+ birds from the day before running everywhere. None of them flew. I pushed my way through the edge and on the other side of it the cover under the trees opened up for a good 15-20 yds and then pockets of down trees and thickets etc. Looking around there was really no way to tell where the birds might have gone. With so many birds and so much scent I decided the chances were not good for getting birds pointed and clean work. I knew there where still birds left to be found, and we went on to have 2 more finds.

If my dog is pointed in cover then I look at it as my job to find and produce a bird now. If the dog has to relocate I failed. I'd rather tap a dog on the head and they stand solid and look at me like I need to finish the job. One of those runoff AA pointers did that to me in Sept and killed a sharptail for him about 3 secs later. If he would have moved bird would have been bumped or flushed, no idea how it held that long I was just about standing on it.

I have seen way more bad re-locations than I have good ones. One reason I try to watch every brace. You know more about what the birds are acting like. Did other people relocate and and birds were right there all along or birds actually running off.

Jealous of you guys and your wild birds. At least you don't have to hit them with a boot to make them fly!

[Joe Amatulli]

Now you are getting into the area of, simply poor judges. Roberts it is the fault of the gunner for not telling the handler that the bird is hit, with that, it is now the handlers option to send or not to send, but with him sending the dog if that dog bumbed a dozen birds, he is in retrieve mode, the dog has no way of knowing if that is the same bird or not. Now what the judges do if the dog does not come back with the bird is another subject and the gunner was wrong for picking up the dead bird with the dog still in retieve mode.

If the handler pulled out the tracker, he is DONE.

It does seem to me that the GSPCA has gone out of their way to get, what I will say are not the highest of caliber judges, some are and some are not.

Scott you were our judge’s marshal when RJ and I judged the All Age and the pressure that was being put on us to use what we had and not a dog that was deserving of the title NFC. I think I am seeing an attempt to lower the standard rather than work harder, breed better dogs and all that other crap.

[ultracarry]

Nice post Joe.

[hi-tailyn]

I would also like to see a hour stake with a call back.
I also rode the brace you are talking about hi-talyn. What I didn't understand was on the first find the dog had the gunner killed the bird the handler collared the dog then the gunner said "I killed the bird" then the handler let the dog go for the retrieve. Dog ran past the dead bird and continued hunting handler called point again but by the time anyone got there the dog was moving again, while this was going on the gunner picked up the dead bird and we just moved on. Question is why wasn't the dog picked up when the handler collared him? Also, why wasn't the dog picked up after the tracker was pulled out? Was it possible they wanted this dog to place? Just wondering what your thoughts are.

Communication between gunner and handler. Most often the handler will tell gunner to not say anything or say NO if no kill is made. Handler will if they hear nothing assume the bird is dead. Handler heard something and assumed no bird was shot. What gunner yelled was DEAD. The handler then collared dog till gunner corrected him on what was said. They then tried to get a retrieve. Which dog did not see and when released took to the front.

Next was the trying to shoot a chuckar out of a covey of 6 birds. Through a row of trees a bird was shot. Dog sent for retrieve. Dog had a STF, then dove onto bird to retrieve, but the bird got away and flew across 200 acres of field into the woods. Since dog was eventually to the front of the course, handler rode with gallery till we made our way to that area. During this time is where the confusion took place. Handler thinking he was out due to dog chasing and not sure what judges had decided, somehow the tracker ended up with scout. Eventually found other dog with 1st dog on point down in a creek bottom. Don't know what judges had talked about or what transpired, except somebody but the Marshall had the tracker, so dog was out. Very sad for all.

Which brings up next year, with the killing of quail. Now you have a stronger covey bird and does not often fly very far if they are not flushed hard enough. I just see more of these bad scenarios happening which don't really need to happen.

[brad27]

Sounds like handling errors to me. Both handlers made the same mistake. They did not watch the bird being shot.

[Joe Amatulli]

Well now the truth comes out. This sounds more like PPH, which we are guilty of and not PPJ. Tough break, but a little better handling would have taken care of this.

Brad I never watch the bird, you need to concentrate on your dog, that is why I tell the gunner to tell me yes or no, but it sounds like the gunner knew what he had to do, but the handler was on an other planet.

[brad27]

Brad I never watch the bird, you need to concentrate on your dog

I think if a dog is going to break he's going to break wether you are watching him or not. Now, you may be able to stop that dog after a half step if you are watching him, but as a judge would you put up a dog that had to be whoa'd after forward movement on a retrieve? I think if handler 1 would have been watching that bird he would have seen it was hit and sent the dog. If handler 2 had been watching that bird he would have seen it was winged and not sent the dog. BTW, I also watch only the dog when blanking birds, but I watch the bird if some one is shooting it for us.

[Hotpepper]

Waoory about breaking at the nationals is kinda a different issue, if u need to worry if the dog is gonna stand, u r at the wrong place in Kansas. Not to insult u but in looking to honor a champion, the how many steps or other concerens in the style won't win it. Standing staunch, not swinging head and so stylish is the deal. Broke is broke and wins.

Pepper

[ultracarry]

Waoory about breaking at the nationals is kinda a different issue, if u need to worry if the dog is gonna stand, u r at the wrong place in Kansas. Not to insult u but in looking to honor a champion, the how many steps or other concerens in the style won't win it. Standing staunch, not swinging head and so stylish is the deal. Broke is broke and wins.

Pepper

I was thinking the same thing.

[brad27]

Hotpepper, who were you addressing?

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

I don't think it was you Brad.
It's against the rules for the gunner to assist the handler so if the handler is 100% concentrated on his dog to the point that he depends on the gunners "call" then he is being assisted. As Pepper said, these dogs should be above that. Besides that I will never trust a gunner to influence my retrieve. You and the dog dictate the performance and it's up to the judges to sort it out. Why let someone who knows NOTHING about your dog have an influence on your outcome. Heck, I often pray for those "impossible" retrieves that the judges agree that a leg dropped. I have to flaunt it where I can. LOl

[phermes1]

Actually, the gunner can't assist the handler in flushing the bird and isn't supposed to tell them where the bird is located. Once the dog is on point and the gunner sees the bird, he is allowed to point it out to the handler. Straight from the rulebook.

In practice, it is very commonplace for the gunners to tell the handler if the bird is hit or not.

[ACooper]

This is a great thread, and for a rank novice like myself it gives much to think about.

[wems2371]

This is a great thread, and for a rank novice like myself it gives much to think about.

I was thinking that too Coop.

[Hotpepper]

Not addressing anyone, after 20 + years of seeing the amateur there, the guys that show up and worry, don't win. Most don't get around at all. Not being beligerent, just a fact

Pepper