Relocating at the GSP Nationals?

hi-tailyn · Post by **hi-tailyn** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:04 pm

I have been taking pictures of the GSPCA Nats. for 3 years now. I either do the Amateur or Open Gun Dog Championship. I have run dogs in both between taking pictures. So I can say that I have seen every brace and almost every point any of the dogs have made during these events.

I have been field trialing for over 15 years, and it has always been a given if you were to relocate your dog after a futile attempt at flushing a bird. You took the gamble and let your dog look again for its self. With this gamble, you took the chance of any dog errors. Bumping, chasing, another non productive, etc.

To my experience that if during a relocation, a dog bumped, stop to flush, or in any way caused birds to take flight, you were picked up. :roll:

My Question is this: How do other field trialers, & judges see this event?

At every weekend trial I have gone to, when this happens the judge will kindly let you know to pick your dog up.

Getting to MY Point.

At the last 3 National events, this DOG ERROR (during a relocation, a dog bumped, stop to flush, or in any way caused birds to take flight,) seems to happen as often as it does in a weekend trial. But the difference is the Judges are letting these dogs continue and even Win the National Championship. The handler even asks the judge if all is ok, and the judge sends them on.

It isn't like the judge didn't see the infraction. This will happen while every one in the gallery is waiting and watching this piece of bird work. :roll:

To say the least This has caused me (Which is easy) a lot of confusion of what is ok and are these weekend trial judges wrong in their having you pick up your dog?

I have asked a few top notch handlers and a few Pro's just last week while at the Amateur Nats. How do you judge this infraction?

Some say the dogs should be picked up.

Some say that this is Gray Area and it all depends on the wind, what the judge thinks happened, etc. :roll: :roll:

So do I have a leg to stand on by letting the weekend judge that it is ok at the Nats, and he should over look this infraction at this level of trialing?

When I judge, when birds are put in the air during a relocation, I let the handler he should pick up his dog.

What is your opinion on this infraction?

remmy · Post by **remmy** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:37 pm

I think it would depend on the wind. If the dog is down wind and getting birdy then bumps the bird, then pick the dog up. If the dog doesn't scent the bird and happens to cause it to flush and stops to flush I would keep the dog down. There is too much negative judging going on lately it really upsets me. Judges are too quick to pick a dog up.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:04 pm

Gotta give this one another boldly stated "it depends".

Judges judge, handlers handle, gallery watches - simple sport really.

More importantly, let's see some freakin' photos from back there!!

cmc274 · Post by **cmc274** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:30 pm

Nothing gained from picking a dog up that didn't commit a serious breach of manners (not backing or chasing). Keep the dog down, it may have had or will have the overall performance of the stake that is worthy of a NFC.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:01 pm

Hummmmmmm

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:16 pm

If the birds go up during a relocation, and I feel that the dog should have stopped...and it did not...the dog is done. I might leave the dog down becasue it did not commit an infraction for which it MUST be picked up, but it would be very difficult for the dog to sufficiently redeem itself for me to use it.

Yes the direction of the wind is a factor, BUT, I feel that the dog, on a relocation, should be extra vigilant, extra aware and extra careful...because it already KNOWS that there is a bird around there somewhere. If the dog is moving against the wind it is playing with fire. If the dog is in the process of stopping and the birds go up, I will give that one to the dog, but I WILL be watching closely.

If the dog is working in one direction and the bird(s) go up in the direction the dog is working, the dog is done. The dog should have stopped. Period. If the dog is working in one direction and the bird(s) get up behind the dog, no harm, no foul as long as the dog does not move in the direction of the birds. That is not a complete find however, in my opinion . It is more than a nothing and less than an unproductive. If the dog turns to the sound of the departing birds and staunches up, it is a find with a stop to flush. That is pretty good work.

RayG

hi-tailyn · Post by **hi-tailyn** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:29 pm

remmy wrote:I think it would depend on the wind. If the dog is down wind and getting birdy then bumps the bird, then pick the dog up. If the dog doesn't scent the bird and happens to cause it to flush and stops to flush I would keep the dog down. There is too much negative judging going on lately it really upsets me. Judges are too quick to pick a dog up.

I agree there is too much negative judging. Just looking for ways to narrow down the field.

We already know birds are in the area. If the dog does not do a accurate job of scenting and nailing down the birds then the relocation needs to be done carefully and skillfully by not putting birds in the air. Is this what we are breeding for the betterment of the breed? Keen nose, grace around birds, ease of handling and training.

This is for the National Championship. Should we not expect Perfection from the Gun Dogs?

How would you judge a wild bird trial with this infraction?

More importantly, let's see some freakin' photos from back there!!

Nothing can compare to your great views and wild birds.

http://www.teamphotonetwork.com/QPPlus/ ... EventDate= Scroll down and choose any of the braces or handlers.

How do the other breeds see this type of infraction? The Pointers? The Brittany's? etc.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:38 pm

RayGubernat wrote:If the birds go up during a relocation, and I feel that the dog should have stopped...and it did not...the dog is done. I might leave the dog down becasue it did not commit an infraction for which it MUST be picked up, but it would be very difficult for the dog to sufficiently redeem itself for me to use it.

Yes the direction of the wind is a factor, BUT, I feel that the dog, on a relocation, should be extra vigilant, extra aware and extra careful...because it already KNOWS that there is a bird around there somewhere. If the dog is moving against the wind it is playing with fire. If the dog is in the process of stopping and the birds go up, I will give that one to the dog, but I WILL be watching closely.

If the dog is working in one direction and the bird(s) go up in the direction the dog is working, the dog is done. The dog should have stopped. Period. If the dog is working in one direction and the bird(s) get up behind the dog, no harm, no foul as long as the dog does not move in the direction of the birds. That is not a complete find however, in my opinion . It is more than a nothing and less than an unproductive. If the dog turns to the sound of the departing birds and staunches up, it is a find with a stop to flush. That is pretty good work.

RayG

Sooo, if I understand ya' correctly, you're saying "it depends"!

Nice photos!! Must take ya' some time doin' all that but I bet folks appreciate it!

hi-tailyn · Post by **hi-tailyn** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:36 pm

Sooo, if I understand ya' correctly, you're saying "it depends"!

There is that Gray Area again. :roll: :roll:

Nice photos!! Must take ya' some time doin' all that but I bet folks appreciate it!

Taking photos is just another reason to get out there and watch some really nice dogs.

Takes several days editing and sorting 2,000 pictures.

Still lots of fun.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:21 pm

DGFavor wrote:
RayGubernat wrote:If the birds go up during a relocation, and I feel that the dog should have stopped...and it did not...the dog is done. I might leave the dog down becasue it did not commit an infraction for which it MUST be picked up, but it would be very difficult for the dog to sufficiently redeem itself for me to use it.

Yes the direction of the wind is a factor, BUT, I feel that the dog, on a relocation, should be extra vigilant, extra aware and extra careful...because it already KNOWS that there is a bird around there somewhere. If the dog is moving against the wind it is playing with fire. If the dog is in the process of stopping and the birds go up, I will give that one to the dog, but I WILL be watching closely.

If the dog is working in one direction and the bird(s) go up in the direction the dog is working, the dog is done. The dog should have stopped. Period. If the dog is working in one direction and the bird(s) get up behind the dog, no harm, no foul as long as the dog does not move in the direction of the birds. That is not a complete find however, in my opinion . It is more than a nothing and less than an unproductive. If the dog turns to the sound of the departing birds and staunches up, it is a find with a stop to flush. That is pretty good work.

RayG
Sooo, if I understand ya' correctly, you're saying "it depends"!

Nice photos!! Must take ya' some time doin' all that but I bet folks appreciate it!

Doc - I would personally give high marks to that black horse of yours. Look at those ears... the intensity and that style! If that ain't a stop to flush worthy of a national champion...I don't know what would be!

Love that photo!

Yeah, it depends, but once the dog has pointed, it gets harder for the dog to do it right. I will say this...a bold relocation ending in a swift, hard lockup will darn sure get my attention, and very high marks, but that is really playing with nitroglycerine, especially on spooky wild birds.

RayG

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:57 pm

I would personally give high marks to that black horse of yours. Look at those ears... the intensity and that style! If that ain't a stop to flush worthy of a national champion...I don't know what would be!

That is Sheldon Twer's horse...mine are much more sinister and conniving in appearance!!

As my years of trialing have gone by, I have just gotten much more comfortable and accepting of "the gray", the fact that we all just don't always see things the same way, the fact that sometimes dogs that commit a "breach" in my eyes don't in the eyes of others and the only opinion or decision that ultimately matters is the one the judges come up with.

Post by **Sharon** » Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:33 pm

Where i trial ( Region 13 - If the birds take off before the handler reaches his dog and the dog relocates himself, he is disqualified. This is exactly what you would want your dog to do in a hunting situation , but in a trial the dog is to stare into the empty bushes until you get there and relocate him.

Why don't handlers relocate their dog when it appears to be an unproductive? i seldom see them do this.

larue · Post by **larue** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:22 am

I look at two things,did the dog itself make the bird fly,and was the dog moving when the bird got up.
If it is a bang bang thing,as if the dog is stopping at the same time the bird flush's I will give the dog the benefit of the doubt.
What I do not like is when a dog rides in too far and makes the bird fly because he wants to get closer.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 6:03 am

Without being there and seeing the interaction between dog/birds....it depends. But typically birds fly for a reason, and in the case of a STF on a relocate...the dog caused them to take flight.

All I can say is this....A judge may not like the piece of work, but I thinks it's fair to all to leave the dog down....after all is said and done, the judges don't have to use the dog....but it's rather hard to use the dog when he's on a rope.

I think the reason why you see the weekend judges pick dog up for this can be explained rather easily. Plenty of weekend judges don't have the experience of the NFT judges...so in order to make the stake more manageable for the less experienced, they find ways to narrow their choices down. This is one of those ways.

hi-tailyn · Post by **hi-tailyn** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:50 am

How do the Pointers deal with this at your trials?

I guess it all becomes a Gray Area.

Taking steps after flush.

Creeping while handler flushes.

Dog dropping bird multiple times during retrieve.

Multiple non-productives. etc.

Most people when buying a pup just look at the titles on the parents. That title may include a dog that always creeps, catwalks, false points continually, bumps birds during relocation.

Is this what we want to be passed on with the over whelming breeding that will be done with this new Champion dog?

There is a lot of responsibility put on the opinions of these judges.

In the end we are looking for the betterment of the breed. Are we not.

Natural ability, ease of train-ability, how the dog responds as a team player during the event.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:07 am

I allowed that at a week end trial years ago. The gunner almost fainted when I told him to stay in the field and the other judge about fell off his horse. We were doing ama gun dog, last brace with a first time handler down. We could have found an excuse to let him go from about two min on in the brace but we didn't do it. Let him get to the bird field first. The dog was certainly making game but not pointing it, as long as the dog was running in circles around the area, something had to be up with scent. Them the bird flushed and the immediately hit the skids. I told the other judge that this was a real amature, that it was out last brace, that we could have picked him up anytime during the last 25 min, that we both were pretty darn sure what would happen if the dog did point and the dog stopped to flush immediately. Just as we though, the dog got on another bird and did a fine job finding and pointing the bird. It also went with the bird. Now that was not a relocate but, bumping a bird like that I feel needs to be looked at closer.

On a relocate in the Nat Championship. Not a pick up if the dog really hits the skids when the bird goes. But would be questionable as to the dogs ability to accurately locate the bird if it didn't go straight to the bird. Good chance the bird ran out before the handler got there so there goes the accurate location theory. We have no idea what the scent is doing at ground level and the top of a horse is not ground level. Leave the dog down and i do believe that it can be overcome. It might be difficult depending on how the rest of the dogs do but I believe every dog should get its time on the ground. If the dog was just a no class sob, I might quit watching but I would not pick it up. Only two reason to pick up the dog, interference/fighting or if the dog appears to be physically exhausted and the handler is not picking it up. Anything else is the handlers call to pick up. I have a very hard time saying a dog cannot overcome a mistake, may be hard but could be done. Dog makes one mistake and get's picked up and after a full brace and completed day you could find that even though the dog made the mistake, over all it was actually the best dog you watched all day. I can find fault with 99% of the dogs down if I want to shorten the field i have to judge.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:10 am

hi-tailyn wrote:How do the Pointers deal with this at your trials?

I guess it all becomes a Gray Area.

Taking steps after flush.

Creeping while handler flushes.

Dog dropping bird multiple times during retrieve.

Multiple non-productives. etc.

Most people when buying a pup just look at the titles on the parents. That title may include a dog that always creeps, catwalks, false points continually, bumps birds during relocation.

Is this what we want to be passed on with the over whelming breeding that will be done with this new Champion dog?

There is a lot of responsibility put on the opinions of these judges.

In the end we are looking for the betterment of the breed. Are we not.

Natural ability, ease of train-ability, how the dog responds as a team player during the event.

Everything you have here is a mistake, nothing more. You do not better the breed by picking up a really good dog that made a mistake and placing a lesser dog that made none you caught. Add up the mistakes, consider the severity and go from there.

roberts · Post by **roberts** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:25 am

Any chance of posting the link to the 2012 Amt Nationals?? Thanks in advance!!

shags · Post by **shags** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:51 am

DonF wrote:
hi-tailyn wrote:How do the Pointers deal with this at your trials?

I guess it all becomes a Gray Area.

Taking steps after flush.

Creeping while handler flushes.

Dog dropping bird multiple times during retrieve.

Multiple non-productives. etc.

Most people when buying a pup just look at the titles on the parents. That title may include a dog that always creeps, catwalks, false points continually, bumps birds during relocation.

Is this what we want to be passed on with the over whelming breeding that will be done with this new Champion dog?

There is a lot of responsibility put on the opinions of these judges.

In the end we are looking for the betterment of the breed. Are we not.

Natural ability, ease of train-ability, how the dog responds as a team player during the event.
Everything you have here is a mistake, nothing more. You do not better the breed by picking up a really good dog that made a mistake and placing a lesser dog that made none you caught. Add up the mistakes, consider the severity and go from there.

Agreed! Better to reward a great performance with a bobble than to put up a mediocre dog with perfect manners. However, if the dog bobbles on every find, that's a whole other issue.

remmy · Post by **remmy** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:23 am

Wow! Wouldn't you know it this is what exactly happened to my dog this morning in Eureka. That stinks! Dan said he was doing a really nice job until then at 46 min!

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:33 am

remmy wrote:Wow! Wouldn't you know it this is what exactly happened to my dog this morning in Eureka. That stinks! Dan said he was doing a really nice job until then at 46 min!

Dan? Dan who? That is the pits when something like that happens. Negative judging, nothing else.

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:19 am

I'll agree with the guys who wouldn't always pick up a dog in these circumstances. To me, I think it's much harder for judges to leave dogs down who have made a mistake, takes guts and knowledge- let em run and prove themselves. The stake is an hour long, let em use the hour and judge them for the full hour.

Watched a couple of dogs at our Nationals this year that were doing an excellent job, made a minor mistake and got roped. The mistake did not interfere with any other dog, the dogs did not chase birds, they just were not perfect.

We go to our National Championships to watch the dogs, to make breeding decisions, to see generation after generation. Getting dogs picked up for minor infractions in the first few minutes does no one any good. Judges don't have to use them, and handler may elect to pick up... but let em run and show what they are truly made of.

Fuzz

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:23 am

Don you should request to judge at the nationals next year. All age or Am gun dog.

remmy · Post by **remmy** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:25 am

DonF wrote:
remmy wrote:Wow! Wouldn't you know it this is what exactly happened to my dog this morning in Eureka. That stinks! Dan said he was doing a really nice job until then at 46 min!
Dan? Dan who? That is the pits when something like that happens. Negative judging, nothing else.

Dan Dimambro, my trainer. No comment on the judge...I wasn't there so I didn't see what exactly happened.

hi-tailyn · Post by **hi-tailyn** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:29 pm

fuzznut wrote:I'll agree with the guys who wouldn't always pick up a dog in these circumstances. To me, I think it's much harder for judges to leave dogs down who have made a mistake, takes guts and knowledge- let em run and prove themselves. The stake is an hour long, let em use the hour and judge them for the full hour.

Watched a couple of dogs at our Nationals this year that were doing an excellent job, made a minor mistake and got roped. The mistake did not interfere with any other dog, the dogs did not chase birds, they just were not perfect.

We go to our National Championships to watch the dogs, to make breeding decisions, to see generation after generation. Getting dogs picked up for minor infractions in the first few minutes does no one any good. Judges don't have to use them, and handler may elect to pick up... but let em run and show what they are truly made of.

Fuzz

Judging for 6-7 days for 8 hrs in the saddle a day is lots of hard work and dedication to finding the best dog. I have rode the 48-56 hours right along with the judges and Marshall for several of the past Nats..

I see it is the handlers that are making the decision to pickup their dogs after there is some sort of mistake. Handler will ask if they have a better dog. If the judge says yes, then the handler graciously picks up their dog.

If the handler is a new to the Nats. or has a first time dog on the grounds, they can choose to run them for the entire hour.

The judges do appreciate when a handler does pick up if they know they are basically out of contention, or that the handler has other dogs yet to run. Thus showing some appreciation of the judges time and effort in the saddle.

I have been on both sides where I had a 1st year dog at the Nats. dog that was doing a good job, but not great. but she needed time on these grounds. But I have often after seeing what my dog was showing, go ask the judge if they had anything better. If yes, I picked up. I have had a judge say no and he wanted to see more of the dog. Time to step it up and show what you have.

I try myself, and see most of the experienced judges are positive in their judgment. Those usually go unnoticed.

I was trying to see what others see about these mistakes. I usually if the dog is doing a good job, let them show the whole picture. Like others have said a small bobble is not a reason to put on a rope. If they are having a problem with a area of bird work, usually they will hang themselves down the road.

Once makes you take notice and keep a eye on what the dog is up to. This has gone both ways for me. I watched carefully and saw how great this dog was applying himself to the course and with handler. Or you will see a pattern of mistakes.

roberts wrote:Any chance of posting the link to the 2012 Amt Nationals?? Thanks in advance!!

Should have pictures up on website by end of week. Editing and sorting has been put on back burner from other dog pictures. Still working on them, just not all the time.

Post by **slistoe** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 3:36 pm

Sharon wrote:Where i trial ( Region 13 - If the birds take off before the handler reaches his dog and the dog relocates himself, he is disqualified. This is exactly what you would want your dog to do in a hunting situation , but in a trial the dog is to stare into the empty bushes until you get there and relocate him.

Why don't handlers relocate their dog when it appears to be an unproductive? i seldom see them do this.

Because it is too hazardous. A knock and you are gone - as RayG points out you may not be picked up, but it would be a tough haul to be placing in the ribbons. Most handlers would rather post an NP and hope to make it up later than risk having the dog bump a bird in a relocation attempt. Only in very extenuating circumstances should a dog be given a pass for knocking a bird on a relocation.

Post by **Sharon** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:29 pm

Thankyou.

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Mon Oct 29, 2012 9:43 pm

Because it is too hazardous. A knock and you are gone - as RayG points out you may not be picked up, but it would be a tough haul to be placing in the ribbons. Most handlers would rather post an NP and hope to make it up later than risk having the dog bump a bird in a relocation attempt.

Will most judges put up a dog with a NP over a dog that had a relocate with perfect manners? all other parts of the brace being equal.

Post by **slistoe** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:42 am

You missed the point Brad. It is not about getting an edge up (stylish relocate with manners), but about avoiding a deadly pitfall (knocking the bird). An NP by itself is pretty much a non-event that can be overcome with further birdwork, knocking birds is not.
Risk/reward. Most handlers I have seen choose not to take the risk. But you would be free to do so if it were you handling.
Also a factor in this is the fact of whether there is actually a bird to be found. I have seen folks opt for the relocate and burn another 5 min. of the clock only to card an NP in the end anyway. When hunting you can afford to burn 15 min. or more tracking down that elusive running bird, but when you only have a half hour to show your dog time is precious.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:52 am

slistoe wrote:You missed the point Brad. It is not about getting an edge up (stylish relocate with manners), but about avoiding a deadly pitfall (knocking the bird). An NP by itself is pretty much a non-event that can be overcome with further birdwork, knocking birds is not.
Risk/reward. Most handlers I have seen choose not to take the risk. But you would be free to do so if it were you handling.
Also a factor in this is the fact of whether there is actually a bird to be found. I have seen folks opt for the relocate and burn another 5 min. of the clock only to card an NP in the end anyway. When hunting you can afford to burn 15 min. or more tracking down that elusive running bird, but when you only have a half hour to show your dog time is precious.

slistoe,

So you recommend NOT relocating a dog? As a judge, I raise an eyebrow when a handler, flushes, produces nothing, and then takes the dog on without a relocate.

V-John · Post by **V-John** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:01 am

Wyndancer wrote: slistoe,

So you recommend NOT relocating a dog? As a judge, I raise an eyebrow when a handler, flushes, produces nothing, and then takes the dog on without a relocate.

Is this because you think that the handler doesn't have faith in the dog to relocate without making a mistake?
Just curious....

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:01 am

if the handler is too excited and calls point and eventually gets to the dog and the dog is not pointing hard enough to say there is a bird, they are kind of SOL... And then you get to the point where you would rather take the NP over wasted time looking for something that is no longer there, and end up taking a NP after wasted time.

I would say handler experience is #1 in any situation. The difference in almost calling a point without commiting so you can have the long ride to the dog, or calling point and risking a movement or non productive before you can 99% read what the dog is telling you. It would be easier to know what the dog is saying and move them on without dismounting and taking a non productive or risk a bumped bird.

hi-tailyn · Post by **hi-tailyn** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:24 am

As a handler, you need to know your dog.

If off in the distance you see your dog standing. You call point and ride over to the dog.

When you get there, the dog lets down or has let down and is looking around as you get there. You haft to make the decision before you get off your horse, is my dog telling me the birds are gone. If you think the dog is telling you there are no birds here etc. and then you communicate to your dog that it is ok to move and continue to look for the bird or continue on with the course. (Yes this can bite you in the rear sometimes.)

Or, do you still call point and hope that your dog is just not sure and that there still may be a bird in the area.

I have learned more than once to trust your dog. Watch and learn their behaviors in how they point and when there are birds and when there are no birds. It is a Team Sport.

Not doing a relocate raises a flag with the judges that you don't trust your dog. A short relocation is all that they expect. Then go on. No need to spend lots of valuable time.

Still looking for clean bird work.

Training and repetition helps you both learn each other and what is expected while hunting or at a field trial.

Seeing a dog on point whether lack of style or what and the handler rides over and call his dog off point will raise flags also with the judge.( Not the previous situation of letting the dog search on its own. But heeling the dog out of the area.) I have seen, where the judge will ride over to where the dog was pointing and then ride through the area to see if there was by chance a bird in the area. If there is one, that can be bad note in the judges mind for both dog and handler.

Brazosvalleyvizslas · Post by **Brazosvalleyvizslas** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:30 am

2 NP's will kill you just as much as a bump. Depending on the situation and judge, the bump can be overcome so if it's early in the brace and I call point, I'm doing my best to produce. That first bird sure takes alot of pressure off.

Hotpepper · Post by **Hotpepper** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:56 am

Hope u know ur dog, mine used to have a very small tick in the tail to tell me he had something but was gone. Move on ......I always did

A person judging and that uses something against the dog that he did not see but only suppose what he wants to see is a negative judge and needs to adjust his attitude, something that did not happen cannot be held against the dog. Winning trials is about the team, man and dog, doing the best job with the situation that are seen.

I got picked up one time on the 6th find in the hour and at 55 minutes on a relocation and one judge picked up and the other protesting he did not see it that way.

Judge just what u see and nothing else.

There was a judge at GSPCA nationals amateur who stated there was no such thing as a stop to flush, only a bump to flush. Same fella with as kill on course would pick up a dog making a retrieve witht the bird in their mouth when another bird poped and the dog just fished the retrieve. Was not invited back.

JMHO

Pepper

Graet Post by the way and very good discussion as well

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:02 pm

hi-tailyn wrote:As a handler, you need to know your dog.

If off in the distance you see your dog standing. You call point and ride over to the dog.

When you get there, the dog lets down or has let down and is looking around as you get there. You haft to make the decision before you get off your horse, is my dog telling me the birds are gone. If you think the dog is telling you there are no birds here etc. and then you communicate to your dog that it is ok to move and continue to look for the bird or continue on with the course. (Yes this can bite you in the rear sometimes.)

Or, do you still call point and hope that your dog is just not sure and that there still may be a bird in the area.

I have learned more than once to trust your dog. Watch and learn their behaviors in how they point and when there are birds and when there are no birds. It is a Team Sport.

Not doing a relocate raises a flag with the judges that you don't trust your dog. A short relocation is all that they expect. Then go on. No need to spend lots of valuable time.

Still looking for clean bird work.

Training and repetition helps you both learn each other and what is expected while hunting or at a field trial.

Seeing a dog on point whether lack of style or what and the handler rides over and call his dog off point will raise flags also with the judge.( Not the previous situation of letting the dog search on its own. But heeling the dog out of the area.) I have seen, where the judge will ride over to where the dog was pointing and then ride through the area to see if there was by chance a bird in the area. If there is one, that can be bad note in the judges mind for both dog and handler.

I'd agree with all of that....except about the part about once you dismount. IMO flushing starts when you step in front of the dog. Let's say you ride up on the dog, I myself like to stop well short of the dog on point, you hop off the horse and as you walk up you decide, through the body language the dog is giving, that you're going to take the dog on. You never flushed. So, go to the dog, collar away, water and send on. No harm no foul.

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:22 pm

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:57 pm

Wyndancer I would agree with the walking in front but would say it would also be dependant in where you park your horse and where the dog is located, cover , etc.

If you have a clear unobstructed view of the dog I would say you shouldn't need to get off the horse to read it.

On another note, I think its just as important to have a scout that knows the dog and if they should move them up to the front or call everyone back..... ?

hi-tailyn · Post by **hi-tailyn** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:07 pm

Wyndancer wrote:
I'd agree with all of that....except about the part about once you dismount. IMO flushing starts when you step in front of the dog. Let's say you ride up on the dog, I myself like to stop well short of the dog on point, you hop off the horse and as you walk up you decide, through the body language the dog is giving, that you're going to take the dog on. You never flushed. So, go to the dog, collar away, water and send on. No harm no foul.

Another Gray area. Once you dismount it generally is assumed that you are going to flush. If you can sell the story that you are stoping to water your dog, then sell it good.

From the judges point of view:
You bring into question if there really is a bird there or not. The judge thinking you don't trust your dog. If you trust him. Let him know he can move on and continue to hunt. They are bird dogs, and at this level, they should know very quickly if there is birds there or not. Then stop on their own. They shouldn't take cues from you to stop or not. Their nose should put the brakes on.

Post by **slistoe** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:31 pm

Wyndancer wrote:
slistoe wrote:You missed the point Brad. It is not about getting an edge up (stylish relocate with manners), but about avoiding a deadly pitfall (knocking the bird). An NP by itself is pretty much a non-event that can be overcome with further birdwork, knocking birds is not.
Risk/reward. Most handlers I have seen choose not to take the risk. But you would be free to do so if it were you handling.
Also a factor in this is the fact of whether there is actually a bird to be found. I have seen folks opt for the relocate and burn another 5 min. of the clock only to card an NP in the end anyway. When hunting you can afford to burn 15 min. or more tracking down that elusive running bird, but when you only have a half hour to show your dog time is precious.
slistoe,

So you recommend NOT relocating a dog? As a judge, I raise an eyebrow when a handler, flushes, produces nothing, and then takes the dog on without a relocate.

I didn't recommend anything, I was simply explaining why many handlers I have seen choose not to relocate.
Handlers handle and judges judge.

Post by **slistoe** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:43 pm

Wyndancer wrote: IMO flushing starts when you step in front of the dog.

Yeah, that one.

Wyndancer wrote: You never flushed. So, go to the dog, collar away, water and send on. No harm no foul.

From a birdwork standpoint yes, but a dog stopping needlessly and having to be sent on will suffer on groundwork/application. So not quite "no harm".

Post by **slistoe** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:49 pm

hi-tailyn wrote: If you can sell the story that you are stoping to water your dog, then sell it good.

Pretty easy sell - "Judge, permission to water my dog and move him on?"

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:51 pm

All I'll say is this...we are getting into some pretty fine points on handling/judging dog work. And being right there in the moment is way different than discussing it on the web.

Good topic though...have enjoyed it.

Post by **slistoe** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:42 pm

Wyndancer wrote:All I'll say is this...we are getting into some pretty fine points on handling/judging dog work. And being right there in the moment is way different than discussing it on the web.

Good topic though...have enjoyed it.

That is for sure. Even though you have played through in your mind what you might do/want to do in every scenario before you run, when you ride up to your dog it always seem so much different.

Hindsight is 20/20 and the gallery judges never get it wrong.

hi-tailyn · Post by **hi-tailyn** » Tue Oct 30, 2012 3:51 pm

Haven't hear from any of the Long Tail Pointer guys.

How do you guys deal with relocation at your Championships? Regional and National?

I have been to a couple all age weekend trials here in TX and they are sticklers on manners and bird location.

slistoe wrote: That is for sure. Even though you have played through in your mind what you might do/want to do in every scenario before you run, when you ride up to your dog it always seem so much different.

Hindsight is 20/20 and the gallery judges never get it wrong.

So True, So True.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:37 am

Haven't hear from any of the Long Tail Pointer guys.

Maybe they worry less about rules and more about finding the best bird dogs!!

Johnk · Post by **Johnk** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:50 am

Well said Doug!

hi-tailyn · Post by **hi-tailyn** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:29 pm

DGFavor wrote: Maybe they worry less about rules and more about finding the best bird dogs!!

The best application and race. We all know they are great bird dogs. Don't haft to worry about relocations.

I would hunt with one of them anytime.

Joe Amatulli · Post by **Joe Amatulli** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 3:11 pm

This is a good subject and I think I need to jump in.

First if you do not relocate your dog you are admitting to a fault, the same as going to the extreme to avoid a back, so unless it is a case of “there is no way of getting a bird out or the dog is pointed into a fence that you can’t get on the other side of” you are admitting that your dog does not relocate and you go to the back of the line. The advice that I will give is ask the judge to make sure, I relocate.

Second the fact that the dog is pointed tells you that the dog, at least thinks there is a bird there, so other than the bird running off and the dog is, some 50 plus yds from the flight of the bird, with the wind up his butt it’s a bump!

Third and this is one of the area that I see a lot of handlers screw up. If you know your dog and it appears to be an unseen stop to flush or the dog is not standing right, fagging and loose, move the dog on, if you scream whoa to the dog you are at fault for that NP not the dog, and I for one will fault you more.

There is not a lot of gray on this, there is a lot of “I don’t know” and “when in doubt throw them out”, it’s pretty simple. So I will say if you do have a doubt leave them down, they tend to sought themselves out.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:10 pm

I'm with Joe, and most folks I trial with relocate the vast, vast majority of the time. Occasionally there might be a time that tactically to put yourself in what you believe is a position to win it just makes sense to take the dog on or if it's at time pick up if the dog is standing but that can occasionally bite ya'. I had a good run several years ago with my now deceased Rocky dog at the Reg. 9 ASD Ch - he had a sweet race with finds on sharptail and a pen chuk. He was rollin' out at time and we were just gonna soak it in then he slams on point in front of everybody, not like I could hide it...so we hustle over, I flush a good wild bird country flush, nothing...his hour is well over, IMO nothing has touched him and getting birds stuck had been tough, judge is stonefaced not giving me anything to help me decide what to do which is how I like it (they're not handling my dog, I am)...so I collar the dog, take the NP, and give up an opportunity to put another bird on the board. Last brace of the trial, a nice pointer that was winning alot of the trials out here back then goes thru with pretty similar application and...2 finds, no NP's..wins. Rocky gets RU - a produced 3rd bird likely would have done it for him...if you wanna win, you gotta believe in the dog and roll the dice sometimes.

IME, it's the very rare exception that a bird in the air on a relocate doesn't usually have grave consequences as far as winning but I'm generally more fearful of the NP than I am having a knocked bird so I'm a relocating machine typically. An NP on the board messes with your mind, makes you do stupid things...makes you wanna move the dog up before you flush because you've convinced yourself he might be on another NP, makes you second guess calling point when you see your dog standing. I did that very thing with Trixie in the Idaho Open last month - she'd had 4 crisp pieces of birdwork on sharpies then an NP...I top a ridge with the judges and gallery still in the bottom of a draw behind me, I somehow spot her buried up in sagebrush, hammered on a point in a spot we hadn't seen birds all week but we really hadn't had a dog go there all week either. I stop, I stare, I reach for my hat then I ponder a 2nd NP, I hesitate, I turn my horse a half turn....and a sharpie busts out maybe 5yds in front of her, goes over the ridge and disappears. I go for the simultaneous "Point!! Bird in the air!!" deal but noone saw anything but me. I blank, grab the dog and go on - perfectly clean, cool piece of dog work I managed to totally turn into likely a nothing.

She won despite me!!!

To make the story a bit more interesting and related to this thread the dog that most closely challenged her had a deal similar to what we are talking about - the dog was doing a nice, nice job, had a great find on a covey of sharptails then per the judge a less than crisp STF on a sharpie but not a deal breaker that the dog couldn't make up with some cool chit down course. We find it standing at about 50" (interestingly within yards of where Trixie had her NP the day before), handler calls point - when we get about 25yds from the dog the dog drops it's head and goes to relocating itself, a covey of huns busts out another 25yds from the dog, dog doesn't even see 'em until handler gives her a whup/whup and dog put's it's head up, sees birds and styles into nice STF. Dog didn't get picked up as it didn't put the birds up (likely we did) and went to complete a nice hour but cost 'em a Ch. placement.

OK, last tale of my foolishness...I had another time with Stitch and he recorded an NP 5" out of the gate. Then he hammered a covey of huns that were nice enough to flush as we were riding to him so I didn't have to do anything stupid...shortly after though he hits another point in the middle of the least likely looking bird spot I could imagine. I get up to him, 10yds. behind him with the judge behind me and give him the 'ol "alright.."...he doesn't move..."alright"...he doesn't move..."ALRIGHT"...4 hen pheasants flush 20yds in front of him and he stands like a rock. Judge rides by me and mumbles "lucky..."