BDC question??

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Jagerdawg
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Re: BDC question??

Post by Jagerdawg » Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:52 am

The BDC was developed for the average hunter with the average hunting dog to be able to compete in a fun format. It wasn't developed to test the breeding potential of dogs. It is what it is a fun way for a person with a dog that isn't trained so well to compete. I haven't read anyone say these are poor or inferior dogs just that they aren't well trained or broke. The only thing said is that the BDC it's not a good way of judging breeding potential. What is wrong with that it wasn't designed to. Enjoy and have fun in whatever venue you choose.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by romeo212000 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:49 am

smoothbean wrote:The funny part of those saying that these tournament dogs do not measure up to their standards is that some of these dogs come from the very lines that you are so high on. So in a sense you are bashing your own people. LOL! I personally know guys that are running NSTRA bred dogs as well as a few horseback dogs.
I also agree with EZZY that people are confusing a good dog with a well trained dog. You can train a lot of things but some the dogs just has to have.
Again the key is training for the game being played.
Much can also be said for handlers as well, a great handler can make a mediocre dog look good as well as a poor handler can not let a great dogs talent show.
Again. You continue to be defensive and take my words of context. I did not say they cannot be good dogs. I said the format does not do enough to differentiate between quality dogs and average/less quality dogs and therefore is lacking as a proving ground. Keep saying I'm saying things I'm actually not though.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by romeo212000 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:53 am

nikegundog wrote:
romeo212000 wrote:While I see how such a game could be fun ad entertaining to the average hunter, I fail to see how a game that does not judge quality of work is beneficial for the furthering of hunting dog lines. Is it fun? I'm sure it is. But there is no way I would consider making a dog part of my breeding program based on their accomplishments in such a format that does not truly seek to improve hunting dog lines.
I would say that the dog that finds the most birds, allows the hunter a shot within shooting range and completes the retrieve tells me more about the dogs worth than having a judge look at a dogs tail and give it a rating and use what he perceives as style to place the dog. To each his own, I'll take the tangible over the intangible.
There's more that goes into defining a quality dog than just find, shoot, retrieve, and not considering tge quality of the dog's work itself. Bird finding ability is important and should be a big part of deciding what is a quality dog for continuing bird dog lines. But there's much more that goes into it than that and that can't be the only thing a format should be based on if it wants to be considered a legitimate proving ground.

"I'll take the tangible over the intangible"

Spoken like someone who has no understanding of how nstra and other formats operate.
Last edited by romeo212000 on Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by romeo212000 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:57 am

Jagerdawg wrote:The BDC was developed for the average hunter with the average hunting dog to be able to compete in a fun format. It wasn't developed to test the breeding potential of dogs. It is what it is a fun way for a person with a dog that isn't trained so well to compete. I haven't read anyone say these are poor or inferior dogs just that they aren't well trained or broke. The only thing said is that the BDC it's not a good way of judging breeding potential. What is wrong with that it wasn't designed to. Enjoy and have fun in whatever venue you choose.
Exactly my point, and pretty much exactly what I've been saying. People get so defensive though that they fail to actually read and comprehend what is actually being said. Kind of like smoothbean insisting I'm saying the dogs that compete in these formats are no good or "bashing" them. I never once said that. Please go back and quote where I did. You won't be able to though. He's just so wrapped up in being defensive he's missing the whole point of what I'm trying to say.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by nikegundog » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:28 am

romeo212000 wrote: Exactly my point, and pretty much exactly what I've been saying. People get so defensive though that they fail to actually read and comprehend what is actually being said. Kind of like smoothbean insisting I'm saying the dogs that compete in these formats are no good or "bashing" them. I never once said that. Please go back and quote where I did. You won't be able to though. He's just so wrapped up in being defensive he's missing the whole point of what I'm trying to say.
Man, 16 posts in a page and a half and you think someone else is getting defensive. :D No need to get your panties in a wad over a discussion, to each his own.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by romeo212000 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:40 am

nikegundog wrote:
romeo212000 wrote: Exactly my point, and pretty much exactly what I've been saying. People get so defensive though that they fail to actually read and comprehend what is actually being said. Kind of like smoothbean insisting I'm saying the dogs that compete in these formats are no good or "bashing" them. I never once said that. Please go back and quote where I did. You won't be able to though. He's just so wrapped up in being defensive he's missing the whole point of what I'm trying to say.
Man, 16 posts in a page and a half and you think someone else is getting defensive. :D No need to get your panties in a wad over a discussion, to each his own.
All I'm doing is responding to others who have made comments showing a lack of comprehension about what I've said, including you. If you're going to comment on a subject you should at least be somewhat knowledgable on it.

Go back and read the thread. The defensive ones who jump to conclusions that aren't there are easy to spot. Hint: it's not me.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by nikegundog » Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:02 am

romeo212000 wrote: All I'm doing is responding to others who have made comments showing a lack of comprehension about what I've said, including you. If you're going to comment on a subject you should at least be somewhat knowledgable on it.

Go back and read the thread. The defensive ones who jump to conclusions that aren't there are easy to spot. Hint: it's not me.
If we you are going to discuss knowledgeable the least you could do is spell it right, as far as lack of comprehension.........Pot to the Kettle........regards. :D

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Re: BDC question??

Post by romeo212000 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:08 am

nikegundog wrote:
romeo212000 wrote: All I'm doing is responding to others who have made comments showing a lack of comprehension about what I've said, including you. If you're going to comment on a subject you should at least be somewhat knowledgable on it.

Go back and read the thread. The defensive ones who jump to conclusions that aren't there are easy to spot. Hint: it's not me.
If we you are going to discuss knowledgeable the least you could do is spell it right, as far as lack of comprehension.........Pot to the Kettle........regards. :D
I'm typing on my phone, but very classy move there mr grammar police. Enjoy your holiday. It's obvious you're in over your head with regards to the subject matter.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:52 am

romeo212000 wrote:Pretty much the same thing I've seen. I wouldn't want anything to do with one of those dogs.
anything here about quality of the dogs?
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

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Re: BDC question??

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:54 am

romeo212000 wrote:In nstra the dogs that run to the back of the field every time before they start looking for birds are not going to be the best ones. I want the dog that's looking for birds the second I turn them loose, but still covering ground. Personally, I have no interest in a dog that works in gun range the whole time and never touches the boundary of a 15 acre field. Does ufta judge the quality of dog work at all or is it just a timed event.
Nothing here about quality eithr I suppose.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

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Re: BDC question??

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:55 am

romeo212000 wrote:While I see how such a game could be fun ad entertaining to the average hunter, I fail to see how a game that does not judge quality of work is beneficial for the furthering of hunting dog lines. Is it fun? I'm sure it is. But there is no way I would consider making a dog part of my breeding program based on their accomplishments in such a format that does not truly seek to improve hunting dog lines.
Nothing here either.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by Doc E » Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:01 am

I like to run my dogs in events that are similar to where/how we hunt.
We don't have thousands of acres of open ground -- most of our upland hunting
is on 20 acre to 40 acre parcels................ Sometimes on very small CRP or
weed patches or cattail patches, so I have no need for an 'over the hill' or
'out of sight' big running dog --- nor do I want to buy a horse just to keep up.

Dogs that can and do hunt (or run in events) on those huge plantations amaze and thrill
me, but that's not how we hunt up here, so I would have no use for a dog like that.

As far as BDC... those events are very similar to our hunting situations where i live and
I really wish that NSTRA would allow Pointing Labs in their events because those are also
similar to how we hunt.
BDC does allow dogs to break on flush or shot ---- but frequently this DOES NOT end up
saving time, as the dog frequently loses sight of the fall and puts on a time consuming hunt
to find the bird. Dogs that are steady frequently 'pin the mark' and save time.
Same goes with a delivery to hand. I've often seen a dog come back with a bird, and drop
it 3 feet from the handler and the bird flies away..... Part of the score is "Birds in the bag"
and one that flies away isn''t scored, because it didn't end up in the bag.

All of the doggie games are good, just run in the ones you and your dog enjoy, and when you can,
go spectate at other games even if you don't run a dog.



.
Doc E & HR UH MHR WR SR Black Forest Casey
and
Nami E & HRCH UH HR Sauk River Tucker

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Re: BDC question??

Post by romeo212000 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:02 am

ezzy333 wrote:
romeo212000 wrote:Pretty much the same thing I've seen. I wouldn't want anything to do with one of those dogs.
anything here about quality of the dogs?
And I went on to explain that statement and that it was based in the fact that the reason I said that was the format itself does not do enough to discern the quality from the rubbish. When the dogs are held to such low standards its impossible to determine what is quality and what isn't. Not saying there aren't some dogs with great genetics and capabilities in those formats, but we just cannot know. Therefore, I would not want a pup or breeding from a dog who's accomplishments are in such a format.

How many more times do I have to post the exact same thing before some of you comprehend it?

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Re: BDC question??

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:08 am

romeo212000 wrote: I'll try to answer in a clear manner to get all my thoughts on the page.

I play the NSTRA game. I don't believe it is the end all be all bird dog format without flaws. I don't believe that could be said about any format actually. But I do believe that it seeks to further improve hunting dog lines by judging and taking into account several facets of what in my opinion makes a quality bird dog. The quality of the dog's work is scored (Style, intensity, retrieve, ground coverage, obedience, backing, and bird finding ability are all judged and rewarded accordingly).


Please understand I am not saying UFTA or BDC should be done away with, or that people shouldn't play in it if they find it enjoyable. But it is not a legitimate proving ground for the quality of the dogs or furthering and improvement of lines because it does not make an effort to seperate quality dog work from bad or even average. No you can't slight the dogs because their owners don't have them trained to a given level, but you cannot say they are proven either. It's the same way when I'm judging a dog. I can't judge what I cannot see. So even if it is the owner's fault for not training or exposing their dogs to what I would want to see out of the dog, I still can't judge whether it is what I would consider a quality dog and wouldn't be interested in it in any manner.

I hope this answers your questions.
This is exactly the argument made by field trialer when talk NSTRA or hunters talking trialing. To each their own but little to do with the quality of a dog.

Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by romeo212000 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:13 am

ezzy333 wrote:
romeo212000 wrote: I'll try to answer in a clear manner to get all my thoughts on the page.

I play the NSTRA game. I don't believe it is the end all be all bird dog format without flaws. I don't believe that could be said about any format actually. But I do believe that it seeks to further improve hunting dog lines by judging and taking into account several facets of what in my opinion makes a quality bird dog. The quality of the dog's work is scored (Style, intensity, retrieve, ground coverage, obedience, backing, and bird finding ability are all judged and rewarded accordingly).


Please understand I am not saying UFTA or BDC should be done away with, or that people shouldn't play in it if they find it enjoyable. But it is not a legitimate proving ground for the quality of the dogs or furthering and improvement of lines because it does not make an effort to seperate quality dog work from bad or even average. No you can't slight the dogs because their owners don't have them trained to a given level, but you cannot say they are proven either. It's the same way when I'm judging a dog. I can't judge what I cannot see. So even if it is the owner's fault for not training or exposing their dogs to what I would want to see out of the dog, I still can't judge whether it is what I would consider a quality dog and wouldn't be interested in it in any manner.

I hope this answers your questions.
This is exactly the argument made by field trialer when talk NSTRA or hunters talking trialing. To each their own but little to do with the quality of a dog.

Ezzy
What? Can you please clarify that with some complete sentences?

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Re: BDC question??

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:33 am

romeo212000 wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
romeo212000 wrote: I'll try to answer in a clear manner to get all my thoughts on the page.

I play the NSTRA game. I don't believe it is the end all be all bird dog format without flaws. I don't believe that could be said about any format actually. But I do believe that it seeks to further improve hunting dog lines by judging and taking into account several facets of what in my opinion makes a quality bird dog. The quality of the dog's work is scored (Style, intensity, retrieve, ground coverage, obedience, backing, and bird finding ability are all judged and rewarded accordingly).


Please understand I am not saying UFTA or BDC should be done away with, or that people shouldn't play in it if they find it enjoyable. But it is not a legitimate proving ground for the quality of the dogs or furthering and improvement of lines because it does not make an effort to seperate quality dog work from bad or even average. No you can't slight the dogs because their owners don't have them trained to a given level, but you cannot say they are proven either. It's the same way when I'm judging a dog. I can't judge what I cannot see. So even if it is the owner's fault for not training or exposing their dogs to what I would want to see out of the dog, I still can't judge whether it is what I would consider a quality dog and wouldn't be interested in it in any manner.

I hope this answers your questions.
This is exactly the argument made by field trialer when talk NSTRA or hunters talking trialing. To each their own but little to do with the quality of a dog.

Ezzy
What? Can you please clarify that with some complete sentences?
Romeo, Try this. People involved in every venue tend to talk down every other venue. The reason being is the one they are involved in is what they like best and not which is best at determining the best dog. They all pick the winner by which dog does the best in that particular venue. That does not say they pick the dog that is best at all venues.

I believe you will find exactly what I have and that is that good dogs usually do well with some training at most venues. But we seldom judge a dog like that. You do have a few doing it in GSP's and some in Britts. And the good ones are capable of winning in which ever they are trained in. I am sure there are other people doing it with most other breeds to but you need to look at what the dog has done and not what venue you think is best. The best trained dogs normally win!!!!!

Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by romeo212000 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:54 am

I don't necessarily disagree with anything you've said and I've acknowledged that there are almost certainly some good dogs in those venues. However, if you can honestly tell me you believe that a format that makes no attempt to judge quality of work in any way is a good venue for proving quality dogs you're not nearly as knowledgeable as I thought you were.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by nikegundog » Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:22 pm

romeo212000 wrote:I don't necessarily disagree with anything you've said and I've acknowledged that there are almost certainly some good dogs in those venues. However, if you can honestly tell me you believe that a format that makes no attempt to judge quality of work in any way is a good venue for proving quality dogs you're not nearly as knowledgeable as I thought you were.
Your kidding right? :D

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Re: BDC question??

Post by romeo212000 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:25 pm

nikegundog wrote:
romeo212000 wrote:I don't necessarily disagree with anything you've said and I've acknowledged that there are almost certainly some good dogs in those venues. However, if you can honestly tell me you believe that a format that makes no attempt to judge quality of work in any way is a good venue for proving quality dogs you're not nearly as knowledgeable as I thought you were.
Your kidding right? :D
You've already proven this subject matter is over your head. If you're not going to offer anything more than that please feel free not to comment.

And by the way it's "you're". If you're going to call someone else's spelling or grammar out, you should be certain you can spell correctly and use proper grammar.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by nikegundog » Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:45 pm

romeo212000 wrote:
nikegundog wrote:
romeo212000 wrote:I don't necessarily disagree with anything you've said and I've acknowledged that there are almost certainly some good dogs in those venues. However, if you can honestly tell me you believe that a format that makes no attempt to judge quality of work in any way is a good venue for proving quality dogs you're not nearly as knowledgeable as I thought you were.
Your kidding right? :D
You've already proven this subject matter is over your head. If you're not going to offer anything more than that please feel free not to comment.

And by the way it's "you're". If you're going to call someone else's spelling or grammar out, you should be certain you can spell correctly and use proper grammar.
Romeo oh Romeo, your hostilely is showing again.. In over my head .......regards........ :D

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Re: BDC question??

Post by romeo212000 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:49 pm

nikegundog wrote: Romeo oh Romeo, your hostilely is showing again.. In over my head .......regards........ :D
Once again, if you can't bring anything better than this to the thread please feel free not to post.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by nikegundog » Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:10 pm

romeo212000 wrote:
nikegundog wrote: Romeo oh Romeo, your hostilely is showing again.. In over my head .......regards........ :D
Once again, if you can't bring anything better than this to the thread please feel free not to post.
BDF rules says when you hit 50 posts in one thread you win the argument, your over half way there. :roll:

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Re: BDC question??

Post by romeo212000 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:17 pm

You've proven through your posts on this thread that you're incapable of adding anything resembling substantial thought to this thread. Your last post being a shining example. Thanks for playing, but let the grown ups talk now.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by Winchey » Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:41 pm

Romeo, Try this. People involved in every venue tend to talk down every other venue. The reason being is the one they are involved in is what they like best and not which is best at determining the best dog. They all pick the winner by which dog does the best in that particular venue. That does not say they pick the dog that is best at all venues.

I believe you will find exactly what I have and that is that good dogs usually do well with some training at most venues. But we seldom judge a dog like that. You do have a few doing it in GSH's and some in Britts. And the good ones are capable of winning in which ever they are trained in. I am sure there are other people doing it with most other breeds to but you need to look at what the dog has done and not what venue you think is best. The best trained dogs normally win!!!!!

Ezzy[/quote]

So you are saying that Chasehill little Bud is a ch in coverdog, walking, sd hb, aa hb and has a lot of wild birds killed over him because he is the best trained? What about the other dogs that aren't nearly as successful that the same trainer trains and handles, does he just not train them as well? When you get to the top of any of those venues all of the dogs are "well trained" they are seperated by ability and what's between their ears.

Bottom line is, a crappy dog can enjoy more success in BDC than it could in other venues, thus telling people less about the quality of the dog.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by romeo212000 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:49 pm

Winchey wrote:
So you are saying that Chasehill little Bud is a ch in coverdog, walking, sd hb, aa hb and has a lot of wild birds killed over him because he is the best trained? What about the other dogs that aren't nearly as successful that the same trainer trains and handles, does he just not train them as well? When you get to the top of any of those venues all of the dogs are "well trained" they are seperated by ability and what's between their ears.

Bottom line is, a crappy dog can enjoy more success in BDC than it could in other venues, thus telling people less about the quality of the dog.
Not a difficult concept to grasp is it? Amazing how it flys over some people's heads.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by Trekmoor » Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:29 pm

This thread has me totally bewildered. Just how many forms of hunting/pointing/retrieving trials do you have over there ???

The O.P. trial that began this thread sounds to me like good fun for all involved .....unless they got peppered ! I would do one of those trials as a fun day out but would probably not purchase a pup on the basis that it's sire and dam had won a couple of these trials.

What I would like to know is this ..... does winning a few of these trials get a dogs name and achievement(s) onto the kennel clubs list of champions and does winning these trials entitle you to put those wins onto a pups pedigree ? Could a beginner to the gundog game or someone like me who does not understand the differences between this type of trial and the others , mistakenly believe he/she was purchasing a pup with some serious field trial winning history behind it ?

We only have one kind of hunt-point-retrieve trial over here and this thread interested me because of the number of people here who would like to have something simpler to train for and maybe more easy to win.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by nikegundog » Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:32 pm

Trekmoor wrote:This thread has me totally bewildered. Just how many forms of hunting/pointing/retrieving trials do you have over there ???

The O.P. trial that began this thread sounds to me like good fun for all involved .....unless they got peppered ! I would do one of those trials as a fun day out but would probably not purchase a pup on the basis that it's sire and dam had won a couple of these trials.

What I would like to know is this ..... does winning a few of these trials get a dogs name and achievement(s) onto the kennel clubs list of champions and does winning these trials entitle you to put those wins onto a pups pedigree ? Could a beginner to the gundog game or someone like me who does not understand the differences between this type of trial and the others , mistakenly believe he/she was purchasing a pup with some serious field trial winning history behind it ?

We only have one kind of hunt-point-retrieve trial over here and this thread interested me because of the number of people here who would like to have something simpler to train for and maybe more easy to win.

Bill T.
Only an AKC trial or hunt test title will get your title placed on your AKC registration, however there are many different games and people have different opinions on which ones are best.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by nikegundog » Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:16 pm

romeo212000 wrote:You've proven through your posts on this thread that you're incapable of adding anything resembling substantial thought to this thread. Your last post being a shining example. Thanks for playing, but let the grown ups talk now.
Romeo, I thought I would stay out of this but I just can't help myself with your last post, you have been a dog owner for a grand total of FOUR YEARS now, in those four you have now became an internet expert, congratulations very few guys have achieved your status in four years and one dog, carry on Jr.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by Cajun Casey » Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:25 pm

nikegundog wrote:
Trekmoor wrote:This thread has me totally bewildered. Just how many forms of hunting/pointing/retrieving trials do you have over there ???

The O.P. trial that began this thread sounds to me like good fun for all involved .....unless they got peppered ! I would do one of those trials as a fun day out but would probably not purchase a pup on the basis that it's sire and dam had won a couple of these trials.

What I would like to know is this ..... does winning a few of these trials get a dogs name and achievement(s) onto the kennel clubs list of champions and does winning these trials entitle you to put those wins onto a pups pedigree ? Could a beginner to the gundog game or someone like me who does not understand the differences between this type of trial and the others , mistakenly believe he/she was purchasing a pup with some serious field trial winning history behind it ?

We only have one kind of hunt-point-retrieve trial over here and this thread interested me because of the number of people here who would like to have something simpler to train for and maybe more easy to win.

Bill T.
Only an AKC trial or hunt test title will get your title placed on your AKC registration, however there are many different games and people have different opinions on which ones are best.
AKC is one of three major US registries. The FDSB and UKC are the other two. HRC and NSTRA run under UKC sanctions and the titles earned appear on the dogs' UKC pedigrees. NSTRA was previously allied with the FDSB and had Championships recorded on those pedigrees. AKC and UKC have formats for upland, pointing, retrieving and spaniel categories. There is also NAVHDA, which is allied with AKC, except for red setters, but has its own registry, titles and pedigrees. It is more similar to the FCI system for gun and retrieving breeds.
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.

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BDC question??

Post by brad27 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:25 pm

romeo212000 wrote:I don't necessarily disagree with anything you've said and I've acknowledged that there are almost certainly some good dogs in those venues. However, if you can honestly tell me you believe that a format that makes no attempt to judge quality of work in any way is a good venue for proving quality dogs you're not nearly as knowledgeable as I thought you were.
What about the dogs that have been bred based on hunting ability alone? Is hunting a venue for proving quality dogs?

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Re: BDC question??

Post by romeo212000 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:30 pm

brad27 wrote:
romeo212000 wrote:I don't necessarily disagree with anything you've said and I've acknowledged that there are almost certainly some good dogs in those venues. However, if you can honestly tell me you believe that a format that makes no attempt to judge quality of work in any way is a good venue for proving quality dogs you're not nearly as knowledgeable as I thought you were.
What about the dogs that have been bred based on hunting ability alone? Is hunting a venue for proving quality dogs?
I would have to see those dogs in action to make that determination.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by romeo212000 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:31 pm

nikegundog wrote:
romeo212000 wrote:You've proven through your posts on this thread that you're incapable of adding anything resembling substantial thought to this thread. Your last post being a shining example. Thanks for playing, but let the grown ups talk now.
Romeo, I thought I would stay out of this but I just can't help myself with your last post, you have been a dog owner for a grand total of FOUR YEARS now, in those four you have now became an internet expert, congratulations very few guys have achieved your status in four years and one dog, carry on Jr.
It's quite obvious I'm far more knowledgeable than you.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by nikegundog » Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:35 pm

romeo212000 wrote:
nikegundog wrote:
romeo212000 wrote:You've proven through your posts on this thread that you're incapable of adding anything resembling substantial thought to this thread. Your last post being a shining example. Thanks for playing, but let the grown ups talk now.
Romeo, I thought I would stay out of this but I just can't help myself with your last post, you have been a dog owner for a grand total of FOUR YEARS now, in those four you have now became an internet expert, congratulations very few guys have achieved your status in four years and one dog, carry on Jr.
It's quite obvious I'm far more knowledgeable than you.
Yes, that is quite obvious to everyone, from the time someone gets there first dog and sends it out to have trained its then about 1 year till they no more than everyone else. :D

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Re: BDC question??

Post by romeo212000 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:38 pm

nikegundog wrote: Yes, that is quite obvious to everyone, from the time someone gets there first dog and sends it out to have trained its then about 1 year till they no more than everyone else. :D
Again. Deflection and nothing of substance. You never say anything to defend your knowledge. You just make wise a$$ remarks to me. Enjoy your holiday sir.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by Garrison » Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:08 pm

romeo212000 wrote:
brad27 wrote:
romeo212000 wrote:I don't necessarily disagree with anything you've said and I've acknowledged that there are almost certainly some good dogs in those venues. However, if you can honestly tell me you believe that a format that makes no attempt to judge quality of work in any way is a good venue for proving quality dogs you're not nearly as knowledgeable as I thought you were.
What about the dogs that have been bred based on hunting ability alone? Is hunting a venue for proving quality dogs?
I would have to see those dogs in action to make that determination.
So basically your saying a dog would have to meet your standards, which happen to fall most in line with NSTRA for a hunting dog to be worthy?

And a guy who has owned a hunting preserve trained and bred dogs for thirty years was a NSTRA judge but quit because he is tired of dealing with guys similar to you has no place breeding dogs. I feel bad for all those customers who waited in line for his pups before you could give your approval.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by romeo212000 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:18 pm

Garrison wrote:
romeo212000 wrote:
brad27 wrote: I would have to see those dogs in action to make that determination.
So basically your saying a dog would have to meet your standards, which happen to fall most in line with NSTRA for a hunting dog to be worthy?

And a guy who has owned a hunting preserve trained and bred dogs for thirty years was a NSTRA judge but quit because he is tired of dealing with guys similar to you has no place breeding dogs. I feel bad for all those customers who waited in line for his pups before you could give your approval.
Please quote where I said that. My comments were I reference to bdc type venues and their failure to differentiate quality work from shoddy work.

Also, I didn't say I was only interested in nstra dogs.... Ever. I said bdc and venues like it do not even attempt to judge quality work and therefore does not tell me enough to interest me based in accomplishments in those venues alone.

There seems to be a real problem with people taking things out of context on this forum. Try again though bud. That attempt was weak.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by Garrison » Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:24 pm

I did, you would have to see those dogs to make that determination. I didn't know you personally were a legitimate venue. What makes your assessment any more credible than any one else?

I would have to see those dogs in action to make that determination.[/quote]

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Re: BDC question??

Post by romeo212000 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:28 pm

Garrison wrote:I did, you would have to see those dogs to make that determination. I didn't know you personally were a legitimate venue. What makes your assessment any more credible than any one else?

I would have to see those dogs in action to make that determination.
[/quote]

I was speaking for myself personally. I would hope that anyone would want to see dogs that are purely hunting dogs before getting a pup from them. It's called due diligence. It doesn't make me a snob. It's called doing your homework.

Once again, completely out of context. Carry on being defensive based on something that wasn't actually said though.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by Ms. Cage » Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:37 pm

brad27 wrote:What about the dogs that have been bred based on hunting ability alone? Is hunting a venue for proving quality dogs?


romeo212000 wrote: I would have to see those dogs in action to make that determination. I was speaking for myself personally. I would hope that anyone would want to see dogs that are purely hunting dogs before getting a pup from them. It's called due diligence


So the titled dog not be checked out and the pure hunting dog should

Be careful you just might run into some hunting machines that will wax that highly titled dog on daily basis when run on wild birds.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by romeo212000 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:40 pm

Ms. Cage wrote:
brad27 wrote:What about the dogs that have been bred based on hunting ability alone? Is hunting a venue for proving quality dogs?


romeo212000 wrote: I would have to see those dogs in action to make that determination. I was speaking for myself personally. I would hope that anyone would want to see dogs that are purely hunting dogs before getting a pup from them. It's called due diligence


So the titled dog not be checked out and the pure hunting dog should

Be careful you just might run into some hunting machines that will wax that highly titled dog on daily basis when run on wild birds.
Again, never said that. Quit putting words in my mouth people. But a title that I know tests the quality of the dog at least gives me something to go on.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by Ms. Cage » Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:49 pm

romeo212000 wrote:But a title that I know tests the quality of the dog at least gives me something to go on.
Depends on the qualities your looking for. Some like big run, some don't. Some want strong water work , some don't, etc. I think that's why we have all the games. Folks like what they like. Maybe it's best to repect everybodys venue and leave it at that...

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Re: BDC question??

Post by romeo212000 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:51 pm

Ms. Cage wrote:
romeo212000 wrote:But a title that I know tests the quality of the dog at least gives me something to go on.
Depends on the qualities your looking for. Some like big run, some don't. Some want strong water work , some don't, etc. I think that's why we have all the games. Folks like what they like. Maybe it's best to repect everybodys venue and leave it at that...
Right, but the point is these other venues at least judge these other desirable qualities whereas bdc type formats do not. That's all I'm saying.

Calling a spade a spade doesn't make me close minded. It means I'm willing to call things what they are rather than worrying about stroking everybody's egos.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by ACooper » Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:59 pm

romeo212000 wrote:
Ms. Cage wrote:
romeo212000 wrote:But a title that I know tests the quality of the dog at least gives me something to go on.
Depends on the qualities your looking for. Some like big run, some don't. Some want strong water work , some don't, etc. I think that's why we have all the games. Folks like what they like. Maybe it's best to repect everybodys venue and leave it at that...
Right, but the point is these other venues at least judge these other desirable qualities whereas bdc type formats do not. That's all I'm saying.

Calling a spade a spade doesn't make me close minded. It means I'm willing to call things what they are rather than worrying about stroking everybody's egos.
You realize that everything you are saying about BDC (and bdc type events) many people say the same things about NSTRA correct?

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Re: BDC question??

Post by romeo212000 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:02 pm

ACooper wrote:
You realize that everything you are saying about BDC (and bdc type events) many people say the same things about NSTRA correct?
Again. Nstra judges and makes an attempt to differentiate quality work from shoddy work. Bdc does not. That fact cannot be refuted or disproven. Come on people. This isn't a difficult concept to grasp.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by Ms. Cage » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:03 pm

romeo212000 wrote:Calling a spade a spade doesn't make me close minded. It means I'm willing to call things what they are rather than worrying about stroking everybody's egos.
That's like me saying i don't like your game ( NSTRA ) because the dog breaks on shot or the dog is collared once the back is established vs. having to stand throgh the retrieve.
To me my statement is narrow minded... When your pointing fingers at another venue, look at the 3 pointing back at you.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by romeo212000 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:07 pm

Ms. Cage wrote:
romeo212000 wrote:Calling a spade a spade doesn't make me close minded. It means I'm willing to call things what they are rather than worrying about stroking everybody's egos.
That's like me saying i don't like your game ( NSTRA ) because the dog breaks on shot or the dog is collared once the back is established vs. having to stand throgh the retrieve.
To me my statement is narrow minded... When your pointing fingers at another venue, look at the 3 pointing back at you.
If you don't feel like dogs thy are successful from the nstra venue give you enough information to go one because they don't show you what you want then that's certainly within reason in my opinion. However, this conversation has never been about standards of steadiness per say. It has always been about the fact that bdc and like events makes absolutely zero attempt to differentiate quality work from shoddy work. That's the whole premise for my posts in this thread.

But once agin people make statements without knowing what I'm actually saying and take my words out of context..., sigh.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by ACooper » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:11 pm

romeo212000 wrote:
ACooper wrote:
You realize that everything you are saying about BDC (and bdc type events) many people say the same things about NSTRA correct?
Again. Nstra judges and makes an attempt to differentiate quality work from shoddy work. Bdc does not. That fact cannot be refuted or disproven. Come on people. This isn't a difficult concept to grasp.
No one is having a hard time grasping anything except you apparently, my comment only stated that your venue of choice is held by many in the same regard as you hold BDC type events. I made no comment on how NSTRA is judged or dog quality. You're missing the forest for the trees.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by romeo212000 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:15 pm

ACooper wrote:
romeo212000 wrote:
ACooper wrote:
You realize that everything you are saying about BDC (and bdc type events) many people say the same things about NSTRA correct?
Again. Nstra judges and makes an attempt to differentiate quality work from shoddy work. Bdc does not. That fact cannot be refuted or disproven. Come on people. This isn't a difficult concept to grasp.
No one is having a hard time grasping anything except you apparently, my comment only stated that your venue of choice is held by many in the same regard as you hold BDC type events. I made no comment on how NSTRA is judged or dog quality. You're missing the forest for the trees.
No they don't because my argument Is bdc doesn't make an attempt to judge quality work whereas nstra does. Nobody is making that argument about nstra and if you do, we'll you're pretty dang ignorant on the matter. Looks like you're the one missing the forest for the trees.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by Garrison » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:21 pm

romeo212000 wrote:
brad27 wrote:
romeo212000 wrote:I don't necessarily disagree with anything you've said and I've acknowledged that there are almost certainly some good dogs in those venues. However, if you can honestly tell me you believe that a format that makes no attempt to judge quality of work in any way is a good venue for proving quality dogs you're not nearly as knowledgeable as I thought you were.
What about the dogs that have been bred based on hunting ability alone? Is hunting a venue for proving quality dogs?
I would have to see those dogs in action to make that determination.
Still failing to see how this could possibly be taken out of context.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by Ms. Cage » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:23 pm

romeo212000 wrote:Nobody is making that argument about nstra and if you do, we'll you're pretty dang ignorant on the matter.
There you go!!! 3 fingers pointing back at you again!!!! :wink:

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