BDC question??

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Re: BDC question??

Post by romeo212000 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:24 pm

Garrison wrote:
brad27 wrote:
romeo212000 wrote: What about the dogs that have been bred based on hunting ability alone? Is hunting a venue for proving quality dogs?
I would have to see those dogs in action to make that determination.
Still failing to see how this could possibly be taken out of context.
I already explained it. If you can't comprehend that in its simplicity I cannot help you.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by romeo212000 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:25 pm

Ms. Cage wrote:
romeo212000 wrote:Nobody is making that argument about nstra and if you do, we'll you're pretty dang ignorant on the matter.
There you go!!! 3 fingers pointing back at you again!!!! :wink:
Again, nothing of substance and out of context. What part of "judges quality of work" do you not understand????????

What have I said about bdc that wasn't true? Please tell me. I'm waiting.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by AHGSP » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:26 pm

Trekmoor wrote:This thread has me totally bewildered. Just how many forms of hunting/pointing/retrieving trials do you have over there ???

The O.P. trial that began this thread sounds to me like good fun for all involved .....unless they got peppered ! I would do one of those trials as a fun day out but would probably not purchase a pup on the basis that it's sire and dam had won a couple of these trials.

What I would like to know is this ..... does winning a few of these trials get a dogs name and achievement(s) onto the kennel clubs list of champions and does winning these trials entitle you to put those wins onto a pups pedigree ? Could a beginner to the gundog game or someone like me who does not understand the differences between this type of trial and the others , mistakenly believe he/she was purchasing a pup with some serious field trial winning history behind it ?

We only have one kind of hunt-point-retrieve trial over here and this thread interested me because of the number of people here who would like to have something simpler to train for and maybe more easy to win.

Bill T.
Bill,
It wouldn't be recorded on an "Official" pedigree from AKC, FDSB, or UKC; but a breeder of such dogs could put a "Champion" title on their own pedigrees done through a Ped Program.
There are folks that run in these Events that have websites advertising "World Champion" and such titles on their BDC and similar competitive dogs, so I suppose; Yes, you could buy a pup from a "World Champion"(or the like) that was never even steady to flush, or shown to have the stability to be able to take training.
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Re: BDC question??

Post by V-John » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:31 pm

I dont run any of those venues but can see where Romeo is coming from. He made one statement about the judging and now people seem to try to twist his words and become the grammar police. In the end, if you enjoy your dogs and have fun at the events, then continue to run them. God knows we need to stick together as we (trialers) as a whole, are a dying breed.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by romeo212000 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:33 pm

V-John wrote:I dont run any of those venues but can see where Romeo is coming from. He made one statement about the judging and now people seem to try to twist his words and become the grammar police. In the end, if you enjoy your dogs and have fun at the events, then continue to run them. God knows we need to stick together as we (trialers) as a whole, are a dying breed.
Absolutely. I don't believe bdc type formats should be done away with or prople shouldn't do it if you enjoy it. It's just my belief that its not a legitimate proving ground for quality because it makes no attempt to judge quality of work. People have gotten defensive and tried to twist my words.

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BDC question??

Post by brad27 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:40 pm

romeo212000 wrote:
V-John wrote:I dont run any of those venues but can see where Romeo is coming from. He made one statement about the judging and now people seem to try to twist his words and become the grammar police. In the end, if you enjoy your dogs and have fun at the events, then continue to run them. God knows we need to stick together as we (trialers) as a whole, are a dying breed.
Absolutely. I don't believe bdc type formats should be done away with or prople shouldn't do it if you enjoy it. It's just my belief that its not a legitimate proving ground for quality because it makes no attempt to judge quality of work. People have gotten defensive and tried to twist my words.
I field trial. I don't think NSTRA judges dogs on quality dog work. I would never breed to a NSTRA Ch. Am I saying anything different then what you are?

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Re: BDC question??

Post by ultracarry » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:41 pm

Well on the record i didn't say that all of the dogs were horrible and not worth the food they ate. I said the dog work was horrific (see there is a difference and not the dogs fault). The dogs may be worth the food they ate because old Roy still exhists or if they had a wal mart brand it may be acceptable.

Still the event seemed like a bunch of weekend one day a year hunter that wants to just murder birds and doesn't care about watching anything and taking in the expierence. It was just amazing to me how some people would not know where they were in a field, have the bird flush between them and a crowd of people and pull the trigger! Come on but some people should have been taken out by natural selection, guns taken away, and not be able to vote. But I guess that is what happens in a timed event where all that matters is the killing if three birds ASAP.

Hunt tests, field trials, NAVHDA, and NASTRA all require some sort of training before weapons are used to kill birds. There is dog work to be watched and a quality to be appreciated, a sense of fellowship among competators and an understanding that you have manners.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by romeo212000 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:44 pm

brad27 wrote:
romeo212000 wrote:
V-John wrote:I dont run any of those venues but can see where Romeo is coming from. He made one statement about the judging and now people seem to try to twist his words and become the grammar police. In the end, if you enjoy your dogs and have fun at the events, then continue to run them. God knows we need to stick together as we (trialers) as a whole, are a dying breed.
Absolutely. I don't believe bdc type formats should be done away with or prople shouldn't do it if you enjoy it. It's just my belief that its not a legitimate proving ground for quality because it makes no attempt to judge quality of work. People have gotten defensive and tried to twist my words.
I field trial. I don't think NSTRA judges dogs on quality dog work. I would never breed to a NSTRA Ch. Am I saying anything different then what you are?
Nstra judges the quality of the find, retrieve, obedience, back, and ground coverage. It's clearly laid out in the rules. They're in fact scored. For you to say that shows an incredible amount of ignorance. Please show me where bdc and like formats take these aspects of dog work into consideration.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by Ms. Cage » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:45 pm

ultracarry wrote:Hunt tests, field trials, NAVHDA, and NASTRA all require some sort of training before weapons are used to kill birds. There is dog work to be watched and a quality to be appreciated, a sense of fellowship among competators and an understanding that you have manners
+1

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Re: BDC question??

Post by romeo212000 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:46 pm

ultracarry wrote:Well on the record i didn't say that all of the dogs were horrible and not worth the food they ate. I said the dog work was horrific (see there is a difference and not the dogs fault). The dogs may be worth the food they ate because old Roy still exhists or if they had a wal mart brand it may be acceptable.

Still the event seemed like a bunch of weekend one day a year hunter that wants to just murder birds and doesn't care about watching anything and taking in the expierence. It was just amazing to me how some people would not know where they were in a field, have the bird flush between them and a crowd of people and pull the trigger! Come on but some people should have been taken out by natural selection, guns taken away, and not be able to vote. But I guess that is what happens in a timed event where all that matters is the killing if three birds ASAP.

Hunt tests, field trials, NAVHDA, and NASTRA all require some sort of training before weapons are used to kill birds. There is dog work to be watched and a quality to be appreciated, a sense of fellowship among competators and an understanding that you have manners.
Hit the nail on the head. Absolutely right on.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by romeo212000 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:47 pm

Ms. Cage wrote:
ultracarry wrote:Hunt tests, field trials, NAVHDA, and NASTRA all require some sort of training before weapons are used to kill birds. There is dog work to be watched and a quality to be appreciated, a sense of fellowship among competators and an understanding that you have manners
+1
Explain to me what he said that contrasts with what I said that you so suddenly agree with. I've been saying the same thing for two pages and you've been giving me heck. Give me a break.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by Garrison » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:50 pm

Ever been to an Irish Setter Club Hunt Test? :)

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Re: BDC question??

Post by Ms. Cage » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:52 pm

Additude!!!!

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Re: BDC question??

Post by ultracarry » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:58 pm

Garrison wrote:Ever been to an Irish Setter Club Hunt Test? :)
I threw up in my mouth when the guy was walking faster than the setter, searching for game better by looking in every bush and moving it apart to get a better look, call the dog over and hold its collar to point. Good times.

Or the show dog that was 5 going for leg 2 of JH ripping and chasing 5 birds and they were sooo upset not to get a pass.

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BDC question??

Post by brad27 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:58 pm

romeo212000 wrote:
brad27 wrote:
romeo212000 wrote: Absolutely. I don't believe bdc type formats should be done away with or prople shouldn't do it if you enjoy it. It's just my belief that its not a legitimate proving ground for quality because it makes no attempt to judge quality of work. People have gotten defensive and tried to twist my words.
I field trial. I don't think NSTRA judges dogs on quality dog work. I would never breed to a NSTRA Ch. Am I saying anything different then what you are?
Nstra judges the quality of the find, retrieve, obedience, back, and ground coverage. It's clearly laid out in the rules. They're in fact scored. For you to say that shows an incredible amount of ignorance. Please show me where bdc and like formats take these aspects of dog work into consideration.
But, my game is better because there is a higher training level requirement.


For those who might misunderstand my first post, it was tongue in cheek, meant to elicit a response, but to prove a point also.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by Cajun Casey » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:59 pm

Garrison wrote:Ever been to an Irish Setter Club Hunt Test? :)
I've helped orgainize one and the dogs that entered didn't seem to mind when they got their passes and finished their titles that the club was primarily a "show dog" club. The show dog owners trained and entered their dogs to support the event and some of them even passed. What's your point?
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Re: BDC question??

Post by nikegundog » Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:03 pm

brad27 wrote:
For those who might misunderstand my first post, it was tongue in cheek, meant to elicit a response, but to prove a point also.
Brad, I believe 99% of us understood that without the explanation. :roll:

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BDC question??

Post by brad27 » Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:05 pm

nikegundog wrote:
brad27 wrote:
For those who might misunderstand my first post, it was tongue in cheek, meant to elicit a response, but to prove a point also.
Brad, I believe 99% of us understood that without the explanation. :roll:
Yeah but there might be 1% that missed it. Lol

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Re: BDC question??

Post by Garrison » Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:12 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:
Garrison wrote:Ever been to an Irish Setter Club Hunt Test? :)
I've helped orgainize one and the dogs that entered didn't seem to mind when they got their passes and finished their titles that the club was primarily a "show dog" club. The show dog owners trained and entered their dogs to support the event and some of them even passed. What's your point?
There will be Dogs that you like and dislike in any venue or event sometimes the ones you dislike will pass or win so if you don't like them don't buy them or breed to them. Some folks rather focus on the dogs in front of them rather than the ribbons and titles behind them, some rather focus on the ribbons and titles and have someone else focus on the dogs for them and most fall in between. Plenty of room for all with out crapping on others fun.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by Cajun Casey » Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:16 pm

Garrison wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:
Garrison wrote:Ever been to an Irish Setter Club Hunt Test? :)
I've helped orgainize one and the dogs that entered didn't seem to mind when they got their passes and finished their titles that the club was primarily a "show dog" club. The show dog owners trained and entered their dogs to support the event and some of them even passed. What's your point?
There will be Dogs that you like and dislike in any venue or event sometimes the ones you dislike will pass or win so if you don't like them don't buy them or breed to them. Some folks rather focus on the dogs in front of them rather than the ribbons and titles behind them, some rather focus on the ribbons and titles and have someone else focus on the dogs for them and most fall in between. Plenty of room for all with out crapping on others fun.
So, what's your problem with Irish setters?

AKC pointing breed events have to be put on by breed clubs and if those clubs don't have the events, even if that's not their members' area of interest, everyone loses. We happen to be the only game in town. If you don't like the breed, don't own one, but don't dis them.
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Re: BDC question??

Post by Ms. Cage » Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:24 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:AKC pointing breed events have to be put on by breed clubs
I don't think that is true. In Minnesota we have the Lake Superior pointing dog club, Rice lake pointing dog club. Niether a breed club.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by ultracarry » Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:25 pm

Casey he was referring to the one we were all at and he was checking it out. Read my post under his.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by Cajun Casey » Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:40 pm

Ms. Cage wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:AKC pointing breed events have to be put on by breed clubs
I don't think that is true. In Minnesota we have the Lake Superior pointing dog club, Rice lake pointing dog club. Niether a breed club.
Those are Group clubs, which are the same as breed clubs as far as the events they may host. Pointing dog events may not be held by All Breed clubs. Look it up.
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Re: BDC question??

Post by Cajun Casey » Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:42 pm

ultracarry wrote:Casey he was referring to the one we were all at and he was checking it out. Read my post under his.
Maybe he should actually get a dog and enter sometime, then pass judgment on the clubs.
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Re: BDC question??

Post by ultracarry » Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:44 pm

He did have one. It was a super nice setter. Unfortunately its.no longer around.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by smoothbean » Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:00 pm

I was a NSTRA member and don't ever remember receiving any special training before using a weapon.

Judging is different than scoring.Scoring is black and white and there is a lot of opinions and politics involved in judging. Examples would be long tail is better that short tail, short hair is better than long hair, this guy is my buddy or judges for me when ever I need a judge. What is the point of giving extra points for a long retrieve? IS the dog not expected to make the loger retrieves though rough ground so you give him extra points when he does. If your dog finds his birds fast is that not a quality trait you would like to have in a dog. After all isn't that the idea of having a dog? To find the birds. If one dog can find birds when others are having trouble or smell them from farther away thus doing it faster, isn't that a quality trait?

Good point on holding the backing dog. In the UFTA in the doubles divsion a backing dog will not receive points for the back if it moves before the pointing dog moves or the bird is flushed so you can't hold the dog. Does that mean that is a "better" backing dog? How do you justify holdng the dog?

I would definetly not say that all the dogs are great no matter what game you are playing with them. But I for sure wouldn't say that the dogs are not as good because they are judged different. I feel have one exceptional dog and a couple that I think have the opportunity to be great maybe a couple that the jury is still out for the game I play. Do I think that I can go play a different game without doing some additional training for that style of game? Nope! I also think that even some of the top dogs in other venues may not do as well in our game. Not that they aren't great dogs or couldn't learn to do well there are many different reasons that could be the cause.

Honestly to really impress me go and compete/win in several different venues. To me that is an exceptional dog that can adapt to new games. For instance Gamble's Odyssey Fritz. I never had the pleasure of seeing him run but to look at his accomplishments in several different games is amazing. Then to top it off to be able to produce those qualities. He is truely one of the great ones.

The UFTA started being recognized by the UKC (titles on pedigress/ papers etc.) 2 or 3 years ago. Does that mean that the guys that are now recognized by the UKC will view them as equal?

It is not fair to compare BDC dog to NSTRA dog to Horseback dog. Different games and different levels of "training". If you really think it is I am sure that there are alot of tournament hunters that would welcome you to come prove it. I can probably even recommend a few trials that have really good payback and you could go win some money win you go whip'em for fun.

Romeo if Nike is right on his numbers, with your four years of experience why would the rest of us bother posting on here? You should just be able to handle it!! LOL!!

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Re: BDC question??

Post by Garrison » Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:13 pm

Wish I could Casey, all except the pass judgment part.
Last edited by Garrison on Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by cjuve » Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:15 pm

It is not fair to compare BDC dog to NSTRA dog to Horseback dog. Different games and different levels of "training".
Probably the best thing that I have read on this thread so far........ Pick the game that most resembles what you want in a dog and go from there, you can punch holes in any format all day long.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by ultracarry » Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:15 pm

smoothbean wrote:I was a NSTRA member and don't ever remember receiving any special training before using a weapon.

Judging is different than scoring.Scoring is black and white and there is a lot of opinions and politics involved in judging. Examples would be long tail is better that short tail, short hair is better than long hair, this guy is my buddy or judges for me when ever I need a judge. What is the point of giving extra points for a long retrieve? IS the dog not expected to make the loger retrieves though rough ground so you give him extra points when he does. If your dog finds his birds fast is that not a quality trait you would like to have in a dog. After all isn't that the idea of having a dog? To find the birds. If one dog can find birds when others are having trouble or smell them from farther away thus doing it faster, isn't that a quality trait?

Good point on holding the backing dog. In the UFTA in the doubles divsion a backing dog will not receive points for the back if it moves before the pointing dog moves or the bird is flushed so you can't hold the dog. Does that mean that is a "better" backing dog? How do you justify holdng the dog?

I would definetly not say that all the dogs are great no matter what game you are playing with them. But I for sure wouldn't say that the dogs are not as good because they are judged different. I feel have one exceptional dog and a couple that I think have the opportunity to be great maybe a couple that the jury is still out for the game I play. Do I think that I can go play a different game without doing some additional training for that style of game? Nope! I also think that even some of the top dogs in other venues may not do as well in our game. Not that they aren't great dogs or couldn't learn to do well there are many different reasons that could be the cause.

Honestly to really impress me go and compete/win in several different venues. To me that is an exceptional dog that can adapt to new games. For instance Gamble's Odyssey Fritz. I never had the pleasure of seeing him run but to look at his accomplishments in several different games is amazing. Then to top it off to be able to produce those qualities. He is truely one of the great ones.

The UFTA started being recognized by the UKC (titles on pedigress/ papers etc.) 2 or 3 years ago. Does that mean that the guys that are now recognized by the UKC will view them as equal?

It is not fair to compare BDC dog to NSTRA dog to Horseback dog. Different games and different levels of "training". If you really think it is I am sure that there are alot of tournament hunters that would welcome you to come prove it. I can probably even recommend a few trials that have really good payback and you could go win some money win you go whip'em for fun.

Romeo if Nike is right on his numbers, with your four years of experience why would the rest of us bother posting on here? You should just be able to handle it!! LOL!!
#1 in training I am referencing the dog training....
#2 long retrieve wouldn't necessarily mean difficult.
#3 the speed in which it takes the dog to find birds is not relevant when the field is so small the birds just walk out.
#4 BDC is nothing more than getting lucky on where the birds are planted and the brace before you hopefully leaving birds in the field.
#5 a good backing dog won't need to be commanded to be standing steady through WSF and retrieve, nor should a pointing dog ever move if a dog fails to back. I always hope the backing dog fails, rips the bird, chases and retrieves it just for the look on my dogs face.

You should stop making excuses for such a sorry event. Doesn't do anything to promote trainable bird dogs and only promotes the speed of a kill. Nothing more.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by Cajun Casey » Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:43 am

Garrison wrote:Wish I could Casey, all except the pass judgment part.
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Re: BDC question??

Post by ACooper » Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:01 am

cjuve wrote:
It is not fair to compare BDC dog to NSTRA dog to Horseback dog. Different games and different levels of "training".
Probably the best thing that I have read on this thread so far........ Pick the game that most resembles what you want in a dog and go from there, you can punch holes in any format all day long.

This was exactly the point I was trying to make, someone is going to punch holes in every event around, no matter how you feel about yours or how you feel about others, someone is going to think there event is better.

Besides not everyone is testing/trialing/ or doing run and guns to prove stock etc. Some do it for ..... FUN!

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Re: BDC question??

Post by romeo212000 » Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:03 am

ultracarry wrote:
smoothbean wrote:I was a NSTRA member and don't ever remember receiving any special training before using a weapon.

Judging is different than scoring.Scoring is black and white and there is a lot of opinions and politics involved in judging. Examples would be long tail is better that short tail, short hair is better than long hair, this guy is my buddy or judges for me when ever I need a judge. What is the point of giving extra points for a long retrieve? IS the dog not expected to make the loger retrieves though rough ground so you give him extra points when he does. If your dog finds his birds fast is that not a quality trait you would like to have in a dog. After all isn't that the idea of having a dog? To find the birds. If one dog can find birds when others are having trouble or smell them from farther away thus doing it faster, isn't that a quality trait?

Good point on holding the backing dog. In the UFTA in the doubles divsion a backing dog will not receive points for the back if it moves before the pointing dog moves or the bird is flushed so you can't hold the dog. Does that mean that is a "better" backing dog? How do you justify holdng the dog?

I would definetly not say that all the dogs are great no matter what game you are playing with them. But I for sure wouldn't say that the dogs are not as good because they are judged different. I feel have one exceptional dog and a couple that I think have the opportunity to be great maybe a couple that the jury is still out for the game I play. Do I think that I can go play a different game without doing some additional training for that style of game? Nope! I also think that even some of the top dogs in other venues may not do as well in our game. Not that they aren't great dogs or couldn't learn to do well there are many different reasons that could be the cause.

Honestly to really impress me go and compete/win in several different venues. To me that is an exceptional dog that can adapt to new games. For instance Gamble's Odyssey Fritz. I never had the pleasure of seeing him run but to look at his accomplishments in several different games is amazing. Then to top it off to be able to produce those qualities. He is truely one of the great ones.

The UFTA started being recognized by the UKC (titles on pedigress/ papers etc.) 2 or 3 years ago. Does that mean that the guys that are now recognized by the UKC will view them as equal?

It is not fair to compare BDC dog to NSTRA dog to Horseback dog. Different games and different levels of "training". If you really think it is I am sure that there are alot of tournament hunters that would welcome you to come prove it. I can probably even recommend a few trials that have really good payback and you could go win some money win you go whip'em for fun.

Romeo if Nike is right on his numbers, with your four years of experience why would the rest of us bother posting on here? You should just be able to handle it!! LOL!!
#1 in training I am referencing the dog training....
#2 long retrieve wouldn't necessarily mean difficult.
#3 the speed in which it takes the dog to find birds is not relevant when the field is so small the birds just walk out.
#4 BDC is nothing more than getting lucky on where the birds are planted and the brace before you hopefully leaving birds in the field.
#5 a good backing dog won't need to be commanded to be standing steady through WSF and retrieve, nor should a pointing dog ever move if a dog fails to back. I always hope the backing dog fails, rips the bird, chases and retrieves it just for the look on my dogs face.

You should stop making excuses for such a sorry event. Doesn't do anything to promote trainable bird dogs and only promotes the speed of a kill. Nothing more.
+1000000

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Re: BDC question??

Post by smoothbean » Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:08 am

It is unfortunate if your birds left the field. I know you said that someone saw your bird leave the field but could it have been one of those birds from before your brace that you speak of. Or maybe it looked diffferent than the others so you know without question it was your bird. I have seen it many times competitors unhappy when they don't find their birds because they left the field or the bird planter screwed them or any of the other ten excuses you can come up with.

I have infact seen places with inexperienced bird planters or on a super windy day that is difficult to get birds to stay down. Also I have been to trials where they just throw them down and don't have the cover to hold the birds. Putting them down on their backs is the best way to plant the birds and even then there is no guarantee your dog will find them.

I still don't understand the extra points for retrieves. Is it not the dogs job to retrieve? Why the extra points for doing something they are supposed to do anyway.

I am not talking about the pointing dog moving if the other fails to back. I am saying the backing dog cann not move until the bird is flushed or the pointing dog moves such as going for the retrieve. Also If a good backing dog doesn't need to be commanded to stand steady then why hold the dog?

I have not ran many BDC trials in a long time but do run the tournament format. If there are things happening at a trial that are not supposed to it is a bad deal and very bad publicity for the organization. The thing I would ask is to not condemn all tournament hunting organizations for the alledged actions of one event that may not have been ran to the standard intended.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by romeo212000 » Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:19 am

smoothbean wrote:It is unfortunate if your birds left the field. I know you said that someone saw your bird leave the field but could it have been one of those birds from before your brace that you speak of. Or maybe it looked diffferent than the others so you know without question it was your bird. I have seen it many times competitors unhappy when they don't find their birds because they left the field or the bird planter screwed them or any of the other ten excuses you can come up with.

I have infact seen places with inexperienced bird planters or on a super windy day that is difficult to get birds to stay down. Also I have been to trials where they just throw them down and don't have the cover to hold the birds. Putting them down on their backs is the best way to plant the birds and even then there is no guarantee your dog will find them.

I still don't understand the extra points for retrieves. Is it not the dogs job to retrieve? Why the extra points for doing something they are supposed to do anyway.

I am not talking about the pointing dog moving if the other fails to back. I am saying the backing dog cann not move until the bird is flushed or the pointing dog moves such as going for the retrieve. Also If a good backing dog doesn't need to be commanded to stand steady then why hold the dog?

I have not ran many BDC trials in a long time but do run the tournament format. If there are things happening at a trial that are not supposed to it is a bad deal and very bad publicity for the organization. The thing I would ask is to not condemn all tournament hunting organizations for the alledged actions of one event that may not have been ran to the standard intended.
Let me just answer this for a nstra dog. The nstra dog is held by his handler to avoid any sort of interference with the pointing dogs retrieve which could lead to bigger problems like fighting over a bird. That's really the only reason, so there's no interference with the retrieve.

As for retrieved in nstra. Dogs should be rewarded for difficult retrieves , not just because they are longer. Blind retrieves, water retrieves, etc.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by smoothbean » Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:27 am

Since the dogs are trained so much better there shouldn't be any of those issues interference or fighting issues. I would not be a very happy if someone is bringing a fighter in the field without my knowledge.
Just sayin
Last edited by smoothbean on Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by romeo212000 » Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:33 am

smoothbean wrote:Dogs job si to retrieve it should do it no matter what.
Just sayin
Yes, but some dogs retrieve better than others, and should be rewarded for it. Just like a dogs job is to point. It should do it no matter what. But some dogs do better work than others and should be rewarded for it. Just sayin.

You seem to have difficulty wrapping your head around this concept of quality of work. Yes a dog that finds bird fast is a desirable quality. But it isn't the only desirable quality, and if you want a format to be considered a legitimate proving ground for dogs and furthering of lines it needs to consider more than just that one aspect.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by smoothbean » Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:54 am

Sorry Romeo,
I forgot with your vastknowledge you must be right. Please disregard all my previous posts.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by romeo212000 » Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:07 am

smoothbean wrote:Sorry Romeo,
I forgot with your vastknowledge you must be right. Please disregard all my previous posts.
An adequate post for someone just shown to be wrong.... Again.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by Trekmoor » Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:27 am

Does the fact that each dog has only a limited period of time to hunt, point and retrieve a number of birds lead to the handler blasting birds to mince close in ? I sort of thought it might lead to that in order to give the dog a shorter and easier retrieve ?

Bill T.
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Re: BDC question??

Post by romeo212000 » Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:30 am

Trekmoor wrote:Does the fact that each dog has only a limited period of time to hunt, point and retrieve a number of birds lead to the handler blasting birds to mince close in ? I sort of thought it might lead to that in order to give the dog a shorter and easier retrieve ?

Bill T.
From what I've seen, yes that does happen at times.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:08 pm

romeo212000 wrote:I don't necessarily disagree with anything you've said and I've acknowledged that there are almost certainly some good dogs in those venues. However, if you can honestly tell me you believe that a format that makes no attempt to judge quality of work in any way is a good venue for proving quality dogs you're not nearly as knowledgeable as I thought you were.
What is your definition of quality work and how is it judged?

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Re: BDC question??

Post by Cajun Casey » Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:47 pm

romeo212000 wrote:
Trekmoor wrote:Does the fact that each dog has only a limited period of time to hunt, point and retrieve a number of birds lead to the handler blasting birds to mince close in ? I sort of thought it might lead to that in order to give the dog a shorter and easier retrieve ?

Bill T.
From what I've seen, yes that does happen at times.
That can happen at AKC Hunt Test and Retrieving Field Trial callbacks for retrieve, also.
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by romeo212000 » Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:32 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:
romeo212000 wrote:
Trekmoor wrote:Does the fact that each dog has only a limited period of time to hunt, point and retrieve a number of birds lead to the handler blasting birds to mince close in ? I sort of thought it might lead to that in order to give the dog a shorter and easier retrieve ?

Bill T.
From what I've seen, yes that does happen at times.
That can happen at AKC Hunt Test and Retrieving Field Trial callbacks for retrieve, also.
No argument there.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by KwikIrish » Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:05 pm

ultracarry wrote:
Garrison wrote:Ever been to an Irish Setter Club Hunt Test? :)
I threw up in my mouth when the guy was walking faster than the setter, searching for game better by looking in every bush and moving it apart to get a better look, call the dog over and hold its collar to point. Good times.

Or the show dog that was 5 going for leg 2 of JH ripping and chasing 5 birds and they were sooo upset not to get a pass.
Posts like this make me wonder why I even read this forum.
Your stereotypes are ridiculous, and implying that Irish are the only breed who have their specimens which lack natural talent is blatant ignorance. There is a reason people chose HT's and not trials. Good for them for getting their "show bred" dogs out and supporting the club and the cause, at least they aren't wasting away and forgotten about in a kennel somewhere.
Go pick on your own breeds, perhaps one which you will be better educated and respectful of.
Kelli and her "show bred vomit worthy" Irish
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Re: BDC question??

Post by ultracarry » Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:35 pm

Sorry that I described what I saw ..... I would have made the same comments if it was a GSP, EP, or britt also. I didn't know they had a protection order against people like me picking on dogs that are wasting their time hunting.

Are there good ones, yes! Did I see more than one .... NO.

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Re: BDC question??

Post by KwikIrish » Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:38 pm

ultracarry wrote:I didn't know they had a protection order against people like me picking on dogs that are wasting their time hunting.
Now you know, you can thank me later.
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Re: BDC question??

Post by Cajun Casey » Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:49 pm

KwikIrish wrote:
ultracarry wrote:I didn't know they had a protection order against people like me picking on dogs that are wasting their time hunting.
Now you know, you can thank me later.
Volunteering to work the ISCA NWFT in March? :D
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Re: BDC question??

Post by KwikIrish » Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:54 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:
KwikIrish wrote:
ultracarry wrote:I didn't know they had a protection order against people like me picking on dogs that are wasting their time hunting.
Now you know, you can thank me later.
Volunteering to work the ISCA NWFT in March? :D
Hope to have my girl ready too, but always there to lend a hand. See you there?
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Re: BDC question??

Post by TAK » Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:56 pm

Sure have missed the good ol fights over who has the best format! Being a feller that has tried every one of them I can tell ya there is fun and crap in each! We all do need to see the big picture though... As long as people are out doing ANYTHING/SOMETHING with the dogs is A-OK with me!

Now off to read the thread on the purple GSP's!

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Re: BDC question??

Post by Winchey » Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:58 pm

I seen a couple nice celtic signature setters Robert Ecker had on his string run.

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