Hunting and schutzhund

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Angus
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Hunting and schutzhund

Post by Angus » Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:16 pm

Has anyone had a dog that was great at finding birds and personal protection? I would imagine DD's or other german breeds have the ability for it. I've just never run into anyone that has a hunting dog that is also trained as a guard dog/personal protection dog. Not just a mean unsocialized dog that hunts.

I know most hunting dogs are loving and loyal companions and wouldn't hurt a person. I was just curious.

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AzDoggin
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Re: Hunting and schutzhund

Post by AzDoggin » Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:47 pm

I don't personally know of any individual dogs, but if a person had the time, inclination, and right dog, it could be done. I've heard of some DD's who have Sch certifications, but I don't know if they were also hunters. Shutzhund was conceived as a series of tests to determine the suitability of dogs for breeding - very similar function to the tests the DD's have to pass to be breeders.

Time might be the biggest barrier to having a dog successful in both venues. The time intensive nature of training a hunting dog and of training a schutzhund dog could make having both prohibitive. This is not something easily done by a mom or dad who works full time and has several kiddos to raise.

Here's a nice overview of the training required for schutzhund: http://wildhauskennels.com/schutzhund01.htm

I do know this: for a dog to have many schutzhund titles requires that the dog be exceedingly trainable, stable and balanced in drives. Most of them also make very good family companions. Here's another article that is a discussion among schutzhand trainers regarding how much their dogs are included in the family: http://www.vangoghkennels.com/pb-htdocs ... 20MA09.pdf

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daniel77
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Re: Hunting and schutzhund

Post by daniel77 » Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:02 pm

depends on what you mean by bird dog. My German Shep doubled as my field retriever. I did not hunt upland at that time, but he picked up many ducks and doves. Retrieving and quartering are both significant parts of Schtzuhund. Otoh, I would think that a DD or chessie would do fine double duty with more emphasis on the birds. btw there are other than expected breeds with SCHTZD titles. at least one lab, several chessies. and I am sure DDs are in there too. Also have a friend with an Airedale who is a passable bird dog and you do NOT go into that dogs yard!
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Re: Hunting and schutzhund

Post by Neil » Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:23 pm

Chessie or airedale, the airedale only if you can find one from hunting stock rare these days.

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Re: Hunting and schutzhund

Post by Steve007 » Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:49 pm

No conflict or problem at all, if you've got the time and talent to train and, of course, the right dog. l've got a buddy with an Airedale who's a Schutzhund III, has an advanced tracking title and and a MH (Airedale title). He's a good flushing dog, a fine retriever and a perfectly nice fellow.

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Angus
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Re: Hunting and schutzhund

Post by Angus » Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:09 pm

Thanks for the responses. I think it's neat that there are dogs and people out there that do well in both. One day I may venture into that direction since I now know it's not a crazy thought. :D

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Re: Hunting and schutzhund

Post by Greek » Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:29 am

I know that a Belgian Malinois got a JH Title as well as several personal protection titles SchH, FR etc. I agree with most comments if you find the right temperament in any dog you could do it with he correct training. I would look at the Chessie breed if you are looking at "Hunt Breeds". I have tried PP dogs for over 10 years and the Chessie I had at every bit of aggression in him that my Mal or GSD had. I just did not bring it out of him. Personally never thought of doing such. May be a good idea to try out.
If you can handle a Malinois and know the lines that would be my next choice.

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Re: Hunting and schutzhund

Post by duckn66 » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:14 am

I'm not sure why one would want a dog of such. I personally feel my greatest protection asset is my personal defense weapon which is a Glock 19 and a short barreled 20 ga with 00 buck under my bed.

Now, if your looking at a dog that will protect your home and your belongings and not really be a "trained" working dog in the manner such as a military working dog or police dog I would look strongly at a Chessie.

Chessies are loving, loyal, and protective of anything they feel "belongs" to them, or worthy of protection. However, I can take that same Chessie to the field to hunt with others or to the local pet store and he won't show any aggression. However, attack me in the pet store and all heck will likely break out. On the other hand, I leave that same Chessie in my vehicle with the windows down and you reach in to grab something that does not belong to you and you just might come back missing a hand. I give a wide birth to Chessies when they are not around their owners and are standing over or in something they deem as "theirs".

This trait was bred into them in the market hunting days and before. The market hunters would leave their boat with all their gear in it along with their beloved Chessie and take the ducks to the market. The dogs job was to watch over the stuff while the owner was gone.

I read where breeders are trying to "breed" this wonderful, natural trait out of these dogs and advertising these pups as pups that are have no aggression. Why would one want to breed this out of a dog? It baffles me....

My last Chessie was a wonderful, big male that tipped the scales at around 85lbs. He was the best upland dog I ever had the opportunity to hunt over and also was a waterfowl retrieving machine! At the time he was my only dog. We spent almost every living minute together. He was my truck companion and went everywhere with me. In town I had no reservations about leaving my truck unlocked with the keys in it and the windows cracked half way down or even all the way down. He never growled at people walking by, actually paid no attention to them. However, I knew that he would protect that truck with his life if it came down to it.

At the time my neighbors had some sort of mixed up mutt dog and my chessie and that dog were best of friends. That dog would wait on my deck for the chessie in the morning to come out and play. More than once I never knew where he was and ended up he was in the neighbors house just hanging out doing whatever dogs do together.

Chessies require a lot of socialization or there is a chance you could end up with one that is unruly. With proper socialization they are great hunting dogs, family dogs and will protect life and property if it comes down to it. I am quite sure he deemed the neighbors house and family worthy of protection as well. lol.

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Re: Hunting and schutzhund

Post by Suba » Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:22 pm

duckn66 wrote:I'm not sure why one would want a dog of such. I personally feel my greatest protection asset is my personal defense weapon which is a Glock 19 and a short barreled 20 ga with 00 buck under my bed.

Now, if your looking at a dog that will protect your home and your belongings and not really be a "trained" working dog in the manner such as a military working dog or police dog I would look strongly at a Chessie.

Chessies are loving, loyal, and protective of anything they feel "belongs" to them, or worthy of protection. However, I can take that same Chessie to the field to hunt with others or to the local pet store and he won't show any aggression. However, attack me in the pet store and all heck will likely break out. On the other hand, I leave that same Chessie in my vehicle with the windows down and you reach in to grab something that does not belong to you and you just might come back missing a hand. I give a wide birth to Chessies when they are not around their owners and are standing over or in something they deem as "theirs".

This trait was bred into them in the market hunting days and before. The market hunters would leave their boat with all their gear in it along with their beloved Chessie and take the ducks to the market. The dogs job was to watch over the stuff while the owner was gone.

I read where breeders are trying to "breed" this wonderful, natural trait out of these dogs and advertising these pups as pups that are have no aggression. Why would one want to breed this out of a dog? It baffles me....

My last Chessie was a wonderful, big male that tipped the scales at around 85lbs. He was the best upland dog I ever had the opportunity to hunt over and also was a waterfowl retrieving machine! At the time he was my only dog. We spent almost every living minute together. He was my truck companion and went everywhere with me. In town I had no reservations about leaving my truck unlocked with the keys in it and the windows cracked half way down or even all the way down. He never growled at people walking by, actually paid no attention to them. However, I knew that he would protect that truck with his life if it came down to it.

At the time my neighbors had some sort of mixed up mutt dog and my chessie and that dog were best of friends. That dog would wait on my deck for the chessie in the morning to come out and play. More than once I never knew where he was and ended up he was in the neighbors house just hanging out doing whatever dogs do together.

Chessies require a lot of socialization or there is a chance you could end up with one that is unruly. With proper socialization they are great hunting dogs, family dogs and will protect life and property if it comes down to it. I am quite sure he deemed the neighbors house and family worthy of protection as well. lol.

What a great response to the question.
We don't have many Chessies over here in the U.K., from what I gather.
I've never seen one!
I have a lab now that I'm doing some gundog training with and really enjoying,
but when the times right I'll be getting a GSD, and found the question to be one I'd not even thought of.
Rather than the natural protectiveness of the dog, it's the training that intrigues me.

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Re: Hunting and schutzhund

Post by birddog1220 » Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:01 am

i herd of a dk i think in oklahoma that had one.

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Re: Hunting and schutzhund

Post by fuzznut » Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:02 am

When I had my first Wirehair, I worked for a guy who was into Schutzen with his Shephards. This guy has traveled the world and competes in serious competitions.

Just for grins and giggles we worked with the Wire on the protection work, and dang she was pretty good at it. It was all a game to her, but a stranger wouldn't know it. Tell her "Watch" and those teeth came out, and no one would approach her, or my car. Traveling alone it made me feel safer having her with me, loose in the front seat.....her reactions to strangers would give me time to get away if need be.

I love to watch those dogs work. Here is a great video of a non protection breed showing their stuff
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTN5kTkdvME
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Re: Hunting and schutzhund

Post by Stoneface » Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:09 am

Not as far as pointing breeds. If you are interestwd in lushing/retrieving I would go with aMal. Michael Ellis from tje California bay area has some dogs that have done great in HRC and are used as upland dogs. His kennel is Loups du Soliel (sp?). Also, you may check out ringsport if you have any clubs in you area, it is a blast! I like it a lot mor than Schutzhund. If you need help finding a good Mal, let me know.

I do know one guy used to run Chesapeaks in French Ring.
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Re: Hunting and schutzhund

Post by cleanslate » Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:08 pm

I have seen two replies stating that a Mal has a jh title, and one who competed in HRC events. Where were these events? I thought the hunt tests and such were pretty specific that the dog had to be a known hunting breed type in order to compete...JUst curious on this point. As to the second point, about Schutzhund, the only problem I would see is that in Schutzhund, during the protection part of the test, the dog is graded on how strong the bite(hold) is. Hunters generally want a soft mouth on their dogs. This might become an issue...

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Re: Hunting and schutzhund

Post by Angus » Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:28 pm

cleanslate wrote:I have seen two replies stating that a Mal has a jh title, and one who competed in HRC events. Where were these events? I thought the hunt tests and such were pretty specific that the dog had to be a known hunting breed type in order to compete...JUst curious on this point. As to the second point, about Schutzhund, the only problem I would see is that in Schutzhund, during the protection part of the test, the dog is graded on how strong the bite(hold) is. Hunters generally want a soft mouth on their dogs. This might become an issue...

You bring up some great points. I had not thought about the soft mouth part because I am not real familiar with the SCH titles and testing. But I have to think that you may be on to something there.


The idea just popped into my head the other day. In earlier years dogs where used for game as well as towing a cart to market and watching the cart, boat, boxes, etc. A dog that does that type of work has to have survived through the years in our modern hunting dogs I would think.

Also the wife has been talking about a protection dog for her and my daughter when I'm away. While she is proficient with her S&W she would like something to give her extra time if she needs it. So we were probably going to pick up a Bouveir that she can take jogging in bear country and around our area. As well as protect the home. So the wheels started turning how to add another hunting dog and so on... :wink:

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Re: Hunting and schutzhund

Post by Stoneface » Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:29 pm

Here are links to the dogs I'm talking about. I'm surprised they don't have the titles listed, but they do mention it in the description of the dogs.

http://loupsdusoleil.com/our-dogs/feist/

http://loupsdusoleil.com/breedings/beginnings/notoire/

Here are some videos.

As far as being soft-mouthed is concerned... well, these dogs are so versatile you could probably train these dogs to moonwalk on water. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIc6yQWT0OI

Yeah, on second thought, you'd have to be cray to think a shepherd dog could fill a gun dog's shoes. ;) --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRX8xOj0DJU
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Re: Hunting and schutzhund

Post by cleanslate » Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:38 pm

Ok so that goes back to my first question: Can you run a non typical hunting breed in hunt tests?

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Re: Hunting and schutzhund

Post by Stoneface » Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:46 pm

It depends on what kind of hunt test. Not in AKC, but you can in HRC. (I wouldn't stake my life this, but I'm 90% sure. Maybe some retriever folks will validate.)
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Re: Hunting and schutzhund

Post by AzDoggin » Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:38 am

cleanslate wrote:Ok so that goes back to my first question: Can you run a non typical hunting breed in hunt tests?
Seems like this question came up before, and there was some form to be filled out to allow a "non AKC breed" to test....a member on here pointed it out.

From the AKC regs:
Hunting tests must be open to all eligible
breeds. For a list of eligible breeds, please see www.akc.
org/events/hunting_tests/retrievers/eligible_breeds.cfm.
A dog with an AKC Limited Registration or Conditional
Registration shall be eligible to be entered in licensed or
member Field Trials and/or Hunting Tests....Dogs from eligible breeds that have been granted
Purebred Alternative Listing (PAL/ILP) are eligible to
participate in Hunting Tests
.
Here's the PAL/ILP form page: http://www.akc.org/pdfs/ilpform.pdf

As I recall, this is the only avenue to get a non-AKC dog into an event. Good luck!!

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Re: Hunting and schutzhund

Post by Steve007 » Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:47 am

Dog eligibility is contingent on the following:

Dogs must be spayed or neutered.
Neither this dog nor its parents are registered or identified anywhere as a breed

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Re: Hunting and schutzhund

Post by AzDoggin » Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:38 pm

Steve007 wrote:Dog eligibility is contingent on the following:

Dogs must be spayed or neutered.
Neither this dog nor its parents are registered or identified anywhere as a breed
Yep. My understanding is that they look the other way somewhat on #2...

Why not let a dog compete? As long as it can't reproduce, what is the harm?

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Re: Hunting and schutzhund

Post by cleanslate » Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:03 pm

Good to know
Thanks

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