orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:39 pm

TAK wrote:Is there at all a chance that the seman may have been switched? A mistake at the vets? If that is the case then DNA could help. It could show that maybe the wrong seman was used?????

I to would like to see pictures.

Nice call. I've been thinking damage, not even wrong straw. That could happen.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:19 pm

could be the first shorthair at Ames

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:23 pm

birddog1968 wrote:could be the first shorthair at Ames

Nah. DNA has to be good for that.

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:26 pm

Hanshaw wrote:The pups are out of cally which is out of shake the bank and sired by tonellies rising sun artificiled to din city slick ace. Way would I withhold psppers and get rid of them,they dna

The gentleman has stated the pups DNA

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:29 pm

Ms. Cage wrote:
Hanshaw wrote:The pups are out of cally which is out of shake the bank and sired by tonellies rising sun artificiled to din city slick ace. Way would I withhold psppers and get rid of them,they dna
The gentleman has stated the pups DNA

How old are the pups? And I read it as the Sire and Dam DNA

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:34 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:
birddog1968 wrote:could be the first shorthair at Ames
Nah. DNA has to be good for that.

It is good. Sire is the sire, dam is the dam.

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:39 pm

Off topic Brad but do you know what happen to Redneck Empire? he was in your dogs ped...

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:47 pm

TAK wrote:Off topic Brad but do you know what happen to Redneck Empire? he was in your dogs ped...

No, what happened to him?

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:49 pm

Just wondering? I used him as a stud once and then he disapeared???? I had heard he went to Cal?????

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:55 pm

I might be able to find out. My uncle owns his daughter ( Lucy's dam). I could ask him to put me in touch with his dogs breeder. How did he work out for you as a stud?

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:04 pm

brad27 wrote:I might be able to find out. My uncle owns his daughter ( Lucy's dam). I could ask him to put me in touch with his dogs breeder. How did he work out for you as a stud?

PM sent...

Hanshaw · Post by **Hanshaw** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:29 pm

Thanks all you guys shed a lot of light on this subject. I think I'm going to keep both females and campaigns them, they 3 months old and I would post a pic but I can't Get the forum to accept my pictures from this phone. I was checking there noses and they are brown, what do you think the chances of these genes showing up a
Gain. I'm probably going to breed the lemon back to my stud dog razor, he is out of cutter this should be half brother half sister breeding. Just a thought, if I'm going to ride the lighting I might as well feal the electricity.chuck hanshaw

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:33 pm

Chuck... i don't know you from anyone and really I am a nobody but if I read this right you have white and lemon/orange pups and your really thinking of breeding them? I may be way to far removed but I can not guess that anyone that your would want to sale a pup to would want one? How can this improve anything....

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:55 pm

brad27 wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:
birddog1968 wrote:could be the first shorthair at Ames
Nah. DNA has to be good for that.
It is good. Sire is the sire, dam is the dam.

Not if that was the wrong straw.

Hanshaw · Post by **Hanshaw** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:56 pm

As far as I can tell they are not a default and this is just a thought I was pondering what is the difference between lemon and white and orange or the black.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:00 pm

Hanshaw wrote:As far as I can tell they are not a default and this is just a thought I was pondering what is the difference between lemon and white and orange or the black.

Orange has a black nose, lemon has anything from brownish pink to liver nose.

http://vetgen.com/canine-coat-color.html

That's the link to the dilute color gene test used for shorthairs.

If you have ee pups, then they will transmit the gene to their offspring who will be, at the least, carriers.

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:05 pm

Not if that was the wrong straw.

True. I jumped the gun with my comment.

Hanshaw · Post by **Hanshaw** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:11 pm

I checked today the noses are brown from starting as skin tone I will get them tested,it seems to me and correct me if I'm wrong that I'm ether looking at something in the wood shed or they are double e carriers, let's not forget about tonellies rising sun question.

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:13 pm

Crime-ma-knees! What happen to the days of breeding the best to the best?

Sure would love to see a picture? I wonder if we are talking about the same thing. Maybe it is just a faded or light liver color? Kinda like that dog Lemshlogs Ruben Kyle. That dog always looked orange to me.

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:15 pm

Hanshaw wrote:I checked today the noses are brown from starting as skin tone I will get them tested,it seems to me and correct me if I'm wrong that I'm ether looking at something in the wood shed or they are double e carriers, let's not forget about tonellies rising sun question.

Takes two to tango................

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:41 pm

Here's a topic from the past.

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=13169&p=118506&hilit=sandy#p118506

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:44 pm

I bet whoever owns the remaining straws are loving this thread.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:49 pm

ACooper wrote:I bet the owners of the straws are loving this thread.

Well, if it's sloppy handling from the vet or lab, they should know. I have a friend that lost one of her best bitches to an infection caused by poor handling of an AI. If it's simple genetics, then why shouldn't the truth be known? Rusty dogs get crucified regularly for LD.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:56 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:
ACooper wrote:I bet the owners of the straws are loving this thread.
Well, if it's sloppy handling from the vet or lab, they should know. I have a friend that lost one of her best bitches to an infection caused by poor handling of an AI. If it's simple genetics, then why shouldn't the truth be known? Rusty dogs get crucified regularly for LD.

If it were sloppy handling the dogs wouldn't DNA, the litter owner stated the DNA is good. So... I guess that gives all the truth we needed as if we needed anymore.

I could care less about what has happened in the past, its the denial and deflection of the truth that are annoying.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:07 pm

ACooper wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:
ACooper wrote:I bet the owners of the straws are loving this thread.
Well, if it's sloppy handling from the vet or lab, they should know. I have a friend that lost one of her best bitches to an infection caused by poor handling of an AI. If it's simple genetics, then why shouldn't the truth be known? Rusty dogs get crucified regularly for LD.
If it were sloppy handling the dogs wouldn't DNA, the litter owner stated the DNA is good. So... I guess that gives all the truth we needed as if we needed anymore.

I could care less about what has happened in the past, its the denial and deflection of the truth that are annoying.

I don't know if we've been told that the pups are DNA profiled or that DNA is on file on the parents. I think the latter. That's crucial on confirming the source of the problem.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:14 pm

Cajun Casey wrote: I don't know if we've been told that the pups are DNA profiled or that DNA is on file on the parents. I think the latter. That's crucial on confirming the source of the problem.

Gotcha, I may have misread.

Hanshaw · Post by **Hanshaw** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:18 pm

I will post a picture as soon as I can get to a computer. They are defenitily orange and lemon. The forum says my picture is inhaled. What does that mean.

Hanshaw · Post by **Hanshaw** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:19 pm

I meant the pic is invaled

jasonw99 · Post by **jasonw99** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:20 pm

why are you acting like this is some Miracle? it's pointer showing through. the dogs will DNA. it happens time to time

whoever made the comment about a shorthair at Ames. if that was the case it would have happened a ling time ago. look at fidler look at shorthair. remarkable the likeness.

the best one I saw was a weim with white and weim patches. looked like a shorthair but grey instead of liver.

Hanshaw · Post by **Hanshaw** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:29 pm

I'm not acting like this is a miracle I have my own suspissions I'm on here for the simple fact that I'm not a expert

Brooks Carmichael · Post by **Brooks Carmichael** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:00 am

For Chuck, there is no easy answer. We can all point fingers. Was it the wrong straw, DNA will prove that wrong if sire and Dam are both DNA'd. So, now we are down to where did this color strain come from. In the past was one of the Dam's ancestors a pointer or pointer cross and same goes for the sire. We will probably never know. Because if someone did do it, they surely are not going to come forward. I feel sorry for Chuck, he probably spent quite a bit of money for the straw and the artificial breeding. Me personally, I would have found a good home for them without papers or have had them put down immediately. I personally had to put down a litter of pups that had demodectic mange and the mother too. It did not show up the mother until she had a litter of pups. She was the carrier and even with all the vet visits and treatments I could not get it under control. It is a genetic defect and I did not want it to spread. And this may be the problem with Chuck's pups, there is no easy answer and I glad I am not in his shoes right now.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:50 am

We've given him the resources to get the genetic questions answered. That's more than he started with. Those of us with LD stigma bloodlines know this can turn into a witch hunt, do why go there? If the pups are "ee," then he has some decisions to make. I'm sorry it happened, especially to someone who was unprepared for it. It is situations like this where a breed community needs to be transparent and supportive.

Hanshaw · Post by **Hanshaw** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:35 am

Thanks for all the help I have all the resources and will take advantage of all your help and get them tested. As for putting them down, well I can't bring myself to take that action. Placing them in someone else's hands is not a wise decision ethier.call me crazy but I really like them, I am trying to be responsible but I can tell you that part of me whants to no if his is a fault or if there really is some shady things happening. Should I get my bitch Cally tested also? Thanks for all your help guys. Pictures will post today brad has the pictures.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:41 am

If the pups are "ee," you know their momma is a carrier by default. They get one copy of the gene from each parent.

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:23 am

Some pics of the pups

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1353777755.473020.jpg

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1353777775.792641.jpg

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1353777789.954373.jpg

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:23 am

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1353777824.887567.jpg

Vision · Post by **Vision** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:32 am

Hanshaw wrote:I have checked with akc and they are registerable and breddible I can also campaign them I just can't show them in the show ring ..correct me if I'm wrong.thanks again . Still my question remains

You need to do the right thing and spay and neuter the puppies, and your bitch to ensure they are eliminated from the breeding pool. With holding papers is the dumbest thing you could do without spaying or neutering the puppies. No papers does not take away the ability to reproduce.

GSP's come in 2 colors, black or liver. Any other color is evidence of a cross breeding.

Vision · Post by **Vision** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:45 am

TAK wrote:Crime-ma-knees! What happen to the days of breeding the best to the best.

Thats exactly how we got to this place, by breeding best to best as determined by titles. In the game of titles run on poultry so much can be hidden. Line breeding to the current NFC is the modern day version of line breeding.

Rusty daughters bred to clown bred to slick bred to........................to the present day situation.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:12 pm

Someone might want to get the member who who is at Cornell to take a look. That's the university that was instrumental in the color studies of half a century ago.

hustonmc · Post by **hustonmc** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:31 pm

To answer your original question, even though the color is as orange as orange can be, officially both those pups would be called lemon..........officially. On a side note, those look like pointer pups if I ever saw one.

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:22 pm

No matter the out come ,ee or mutation GSPs of this color should never reproduce. IMO niether should the sire or dam should reproduce.. To say breed the female to a none carrier you still can have a percentage of the pups that could be a carrier. Imo when breeding I have a responsibility to the breed not my emotions. At times the responsibility can be harsh. Someone said, what ever happened to breeding the best to the best. IMO to many look at this as pure performance and not other factors involved. There's times in life a good chunk of change has been sent and you'll have to suck it up eat it because something went wrong. IMO to many look to justify vs calling things what they are. I would AKC dna the pups to make sure there was not a screw up at the vet and color test.

Hanshaw · Post by **Hanshaw** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:41 pm

Could someone with the resources tell me how this could of happened. I will spay them and Cally there mother I will also keep the two for guiding purposes. If you have ever read the German kuzar book you will find that they had orange and lemon dogs before they ever got Americanised. The colors only speak the truth, I have it coming trough on both sides ace and tonnellies. Thanks Wasserman.

GrayDawg · Post by **GrayDawg** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:01 pm

The AKC is registering mutts these days they are so hard up for money.

As for those pups, i've been reading this thread with much interest the last
couple days as i'm sitting here on the couch with a female GSP (spade), and a male
FDSB registered Pointer. There is nothing that anyone can post that will get me to
believe anything other than:

Somewhere in those pup's ancestry there is a pointer.

The comment about the owners of the remaining straws loving this thread
Is DEAD ON. As the value of those straws just tanked faster than Enron stock.

Good luck sorting out this mess....... And if you respect and love the GSP
As a breed...... I can only pray you never breed those dogs.

I feel very bad for you Chuck. You seem like a good, honest guy who came to this
board looking for answrrs and insight to this "occurrance". You more than likely
Paid big bucks for the straw snd then this happens........

Rob

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:03 pm

Hanshaw wrote:Could someone with the resources tell me how this could of happened.

Both would have to have the ee. Even if there was a straw screw up you female would still have to be carrier to produce this color as I understand it. Yes there was a mutitude of color in the beginning . You will never see a lemon gsps on any german website. Chuck i feel for you. Those pups will make you bird dogs. Good luck.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:11 pm

Hanshaw wrote:Could someone with the resources tell me how this could of happened. I will spay them and Cally there mother I will also keep the two for guiding purposes. If you have ever read the German kuzar book you will find that they had orange and lemon dogs before they ever got Americanised. The colors only speak the truth, I have it coming trough on both sides ace and tonnellies. Thanks Wasserman.

I would be happy to send you copies of articles dealing with the inheritance mode if you would PM me an address.

Please keep in mind that there may be something more complicated going on than an "e" modifier from an illicit pointer ancestor who could have been thrown in ten generations ago.

I admire your honesty with continuing this discussion.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:18 pm

Ms. Cage wrote:
Hanshaw wrote:Could someone with the resources tell me how this could of happened.
Both would have to have the ee. Even if there was a straw screw up you female would still have to be carrier to produce this color as I understand it. Yes there was a mutitude of color in the beginning . You will never see a lemon gsps on any german website. Chuck i feel for you. Those pups will make you bird dogs. Good luck.

No, lemon is recessive and each parent need carry only one copy to pass it on and produce and expressor with a carrying mate.

aEae x aEae
aEaE NORMAL
aEae PHENO NORMAL CARRIER
aeae PHENO AFFECTED

Hanshaw · Post by **Hanshaw** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:31 pm

Is there any pointer guys that would want the responsibility of having one of these pups they are I thought highly breed. If there is nothing I can do with these pups I would like to share what I have a small fortune in the breeding.the orange is a little runt and the lemon is a nice sized female. I only need one for the constant reminder, I had a feeling that something like this would happen. There is a dog out of my second breeding two cutter that has a tint of red and have several with the white ear.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:35 pm

Hanshaw wrote:Is there any pointer guys that would want the responsibility of having one of these pups they are I thought highly breed. If there is nothing I can do with these pups I would like to share what I have a small fortune in the breeding.the orange is a little runt and the lemon is a nice sized female. I only need one for the constant reminder, I had a feeling that something like this would happen. There is a dog out of my second breeding two cutter that has a tint of red and have several with the white ear.

There is no reason you cannot breed them to dogs who do not carry the undesirable allele. That's why the test is used.

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:48 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:No, lemon is recessive and each parent need carry only one copy to pass it on and produce and expressor with a carrying mate.

Sorry casey should Have said the small e. My mistake!!

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:52 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:There is no reason you cannot breed them to dogs who do not carry the undesirable allele. That's why the test is used.

Then what happens !!! Someone down the road unknownly has to deal with the same mess.