orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Cajun Casey » Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:56 pm

Ms. Cage wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:No, lemon is recessive and each parent need carry only one copy to pass it on and produce and expressor with a carrying mate.
Sorry casey should Have said the small e. My mistake!!
Do you have or have you had Little's THE INHERITANCE OF COAT COLOR IN DOGS? Not shouting, just on a phone. :) I can send you a copy of the LOCUS E chapter if you want one. PM me a snailmail addy.
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Ahumphers91a » Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:08 pm

Yeah, even if they do have the "ee" trait...Why would Chuck want to spend more money on this debacle? I can imagine 2700 for frozen semen and you have a litter of 2 pup's who are white and orange.

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orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by brad27 » Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:52 pm

Ahumphers91a wrote:Yeah, even if they do have the "ee" trait...Why would Chuck want to spend more money on this debacle? I can imagine 2700 for frozen semen and you have a litter of 2 pup's who are white and orange.
Would it be better to sweep it under the rug and act like it never happened? If you could know genetically why this happened wouldn't you want to know?

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Hanshaw » Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:05 pm

Monday I will order the e tests and for the DNA it is in the works waiting. I will spend as much money that it takes. Its a loss but I'm not going to sweep it under the rug I would like to find out what the story is. And we all wonder how we are out ran by blue dawn kennels. I talked to kieth and he said I was barking up the wrong tree.

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Cajun Casey » Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:30 pm

Hanshaw wrote:Monday I will order the e tests and for the DNA it is in the works waiting. I will spend as much money that it takes. Its a loss but I'm not going to sweep it under the rug I would like to find out what the story is. And we all wonder how we are out ran by blue dawn kennels. I talked to kieth and he said I was barking up the wrong tree.
Good for you. When you are tired of barking up trees, come on down and run NBHA with the rest of us outsiders. We're about to convince 'em that it isn't the tail that finds the bird! ;)
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by ultracarry » Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:48 pm

What I would be upset about is disclosure.

I would ask the person who I bought the frozen straws from and ask if they knew he was a carrier of the small e. If they knew and did not disclose it would make them liable for the cost of the breeding......

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Cajun Casey » Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:57 pm

ultracarry wrote:What I would be upset about is disclosure.

I would ask the person who I bought the frozen straws from and ask if they knew he was a carrier of the small e. If they knew and did not disclose it would make them liable for the cost of the breeding......
I don't think so.
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by fuzznut » Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:05 pm

honestly, who cares about the ee or whatever. These puppies just should not be returned to the GSP gene pool.
Could mistakes have happened? Yes.
Should it be accepted? No
Should the owners of the stud and dam be told? Yes

From there.... responsible breeding practices should take over. Lemon or Orange GSP's simply should be sold as neutered gun dogs. The supposed pedigree be damned.

Hancock...they are not right, should not be bred, it is what it is. Do the right thing...
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Brooks Carmichael » Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:49 pm

fuzznut wrote:honestly, who cares about the ee or whatever. These puppies just should not be returned to the GSP gene pool.
Could mistakes have happened? Yes.
Should it be accepted? No
Should the owners of the stud and dam be told? Yes

From there.... responsible breeding practices should take over. Lemon or Orange GSP's simply should be sold as neutered gun dogs. The supposed pedigree be damned.

Hancock...they are not right, should not be bred, it is what it is. Do the right thing...
Dual
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Hanshaw » Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:58 pm

Brooks go fly a kite its easy for you to say I will get over it when I damm fell like it until then you should probably find another blog to voice your opinion.

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Hanshaw » Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:02 pm

Brooks I hope you are proud of yourself and for fuzzy the arrange and white dogs were around long before this German shorthair pointer!! If you don't like it than take a back seat.

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Cajun Casey » Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:33 pm

To paraphrase the report of another well known incident, DNA will do its job.
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:32 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:
Hanshaw wrote:Is there any pointer guys that would want the responsibility of having one of these pups they are I thought highly breed. If there is nothing I can do with these pups I would like to share what I have a small fortune in the breeding.the orange is a little runt and the lemon is a nice sized female. I only need one for the constant reminder, I had a feeling that something like this would happen. There is a dog out of my second breeding two cutter that has a tint of red and have several with the white ear.
There is no reason you cannot breed them to dogs who do not carry the undesirable allele. That's why the test is used.

This exactly what is wrong, breeders with noense of right and wrong.

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by jcbuttry8 » Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:30 pm

Hanshaw,

I am sorry you had to find this out the hard way. It sounds as though you are going to do the right thing and I hope you do. Unfortunately, you are not the first or the last, and it doesn't just happen because a GSP was bred to a pointer some generations back. There are plenty of guys out there that ended up with tri color Pointers in there litter that was supposed to be all pointer. Wish that everyone out there had a sense of ethics but sometimes the need to win out ways everything else.

Good luck to you and I hope the pups turn out to be spectacular gun dogs. Then you will have at least gotten something good out of this litter.

Joe

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by TAK » Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:24 am

Not trying to make light of this but did you see these pups come out of your female? I only ask because they look so much like pure pointers! I've seen enough GSP pups from all sorts of lines to beleive these don't even have the same structure. Almost like they was switched at birth...

I hate to speculate but I think your going to dig far enough your going to see that the pups WILL NOT DNA....

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by myerstenn » Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:03 am

Has anybody considered the idea that the wrong semen was used in the insemination process???

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Cajun Casey » Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:12 am

myerstenn wrote:Has anybody considered the idea that the wrong semen was used in the insemination process???
Yes. The owner is going to get the identification DNA done to address that question.
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by dead mike » Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:05 am

jasonw99 wrote:why are you acting like this is some Miracle? it's pointer showing through. the dogs will DNA. it happens time to time


whoever made the comment about a shorthair at Ames. if that was the case it would have happened a ling time ago. look at fidler look at shorthair. remarkable the likeness.

the best one I saw was a weim with white and weim patches. looked like a shorthair but grey instead of liver.
Are you saying there is GSP in the Fidler line? Is it because of the color and ticking the fidler line produces?

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Hanshaw » Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:19 am

I have the vile the straw came in and it has printed on there sin city slick ace. Thanks to everyone for all the posts all I can do now is wait for the tests to come back. I don't think I'm the first and I won't be the last. Even if all the tests come clean if these pups were breed they would still carry this gene. And if the tests are negative than something is going on that I'm sure everyone would like to no.

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Cajun Casey » Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:27 am

Hanshaw wrote:I have the vile the straw came in and it has printed on there sin city slick ace. Thanks to everyone for all the posts all I can do now is wait for the tests to come back. I don't think I'm the first and I won't be the last. Even if all the tests come clean if these pups were breed they would still carry this gene. And if the tests are negative than something is going on that I'm sure everyone would like to no.
Exactly. Good move keeping that vial. Hang on to it.
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Hanshaw » Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:16 pm

I was there during the birth they were definitely callys pups. I had some problems with the runt see had a double eye infection and was bottle fed I have the idea that there is not any problems through the vet
. The case to me is there is some hanky panky going on with a German shorthair being imposed when in fact there is a pointer in the gene pool.

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orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by ACooper » Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:37 pm

Please keep us posted on what comes of the tests. I really feel for you having to deal with this.

Just curious has anyone PM/emailed you asking to remove the post?

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Hanshaw » Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:04 pm

No , nobody has asked me to take down this post and I would not. I am learning as well as making a point.
,

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by cleanslate » Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:54 pm

Good afternoon, I hope all had a good holiday:

I will preface this post by stating that I know absolutely NOTHING about this specific situation, but I find the read to be very interesting. I appologize to the original poster that, it is at your expense. I do have a couple of questions, however: Someone replied that it Is ill advised to breed the pups, as well as the DAM in any future breedings. Is this because of the possibility that there is Pointer in the genes? If the Sire is proven to be somone other than what the vile claims, would that then clear the DAM for future breedings? Also what role would traits such as drive and temperment (etc) play in this scenario as far as the pups are concerned? Would this double ee that you speak of trump any other factors? Again, I APPOLOGIZE BUT I FIND THE WHOLE TOPIC OF GENETICS TO BE VERY INTERESTING.

Ken

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Cajun Casey » Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:56 pm

cleanslate wrote:Good afternoon, I hope all had a good holiday:

I will preface this post by stating that I know absolutely NOTHING about this specific situation, but I find the read to be very interesting. I appologize to the original poster that, it is at your expense. I do have a couple of questions, however: Someone replied that it Is ill advised to breed the pups, as well as the DAM in any future breedings. Is this because of the possibility that there is Pointer in the genes? If the Sire is proven to be somone other than what the vile claims, would that then clear the DAM for future breedings? Also what role would traits such as drive and temperment (etc) play in this scenario as far as the pups are concerned? Would this double ee that you speak of trump any other factors? Again, I APPOLOGIZE BUT I FIND THE WHOLE TOPIC OF GENETICS TO BE VERY INTERESTING.

Ken
Okay, if this is a simple "e" issue, both parents would have to carry that recessive allele to pass it on. They would both have to have the "E" also, to appear normal. In genetic terms, they would be phenotypcally normal carriers. When the puppy received a copy of the "e" from each parent, it would be fully recessive and have the off color coat.

The "e" is responsible for removing black and the dilute brown pigment from the coat. It produces everything from deep red to pale yellow coats depending on what other genetic material the animal inherits. It may have come from a recent illicit cross or it may have been buried for a hundred generations. These two dogs are very closely related dogs from a very tightly linebred family.

Carriers can always be bred to non-carriers without detrimental effects even when health issues are at stake. One example of this is lupoid dermatosis in German shorthairs. Another is progressive retinal atrophy in Irish setters. This can and will produce carriers, but not affected dogs. If it is not a health issue, a full recessive may be bred to a non-carrier and the undesirable appearance goes right back to hiding, but is still present in the genetic make up of the animal's offspring and can resurface when a carrier is bred to a carrier.
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by northern cajun » Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:17 pm

ACooper wrote:This always gets funny, yes it could be a mutation, but it's more likely that there is pointer in the woodpile. is anyone really surprised by that?

+4
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by TAK » Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:23 pm

Who sold you the straw?

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Cajun Casey » Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:34 pm

TAK wrote:Who sold you the straw?
I believe he mentioned it came from Wasserman, Tom.
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Razor » Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:02 pm

northern cajun wrote:
ACooper wrote:This always gets funny, yes it could be a mutation, but it's more likely that there is pointer in the woodpile. is anyone really surprised by that?

+4
End of story.

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Brooks Carmichael » Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:40 pm

TAK wrote:Who sold you the straw?
Mark Wasserman is the owner of the straw. The semen was collected many years ago and is kept in storage at the collection site. The dog from which the semen is collected has to have been DNA'd at the time. The reason I know, I had semen collected from my dog. The vet. requested it and wanted the make sure the micro chip was correct for the dog. I also had to bring in registration papers and certified pedigree. I was not there when the semen was collected. But, this is reputable Vet Clinic and storage facilities. FC Sin City Slick Ace (Sire of Chuck's pups), which is out of NFC Heide's Mighty City Slicker. Ace has produced NFC Chisholm Creeks Cuttin Loose and NFC Chisholm Creeks Jax or Better, both with different bitches. Ace is grand sire of NFC BDK's Chloe's Jax of All Trades. I can name you several males and females that are out of Ace or he is the grandsire and they all are liver and white with liver patches and ticking. I currently have three off spring that are related to Ace and I purchased a daughter out of Ace that came from a Slick bred bitch. She has a liver head, liver spots and ticking. The bitch she came from, has produced produced three National Gun Dog Champions. And they are all liver and white with liver patches and liver ticking.

Things happen in breeding's that we sometimes we have no control over and cannot explain. As for Chuck Hanshaw jumping my case in early post he may felt he was justified. But, I had experienced in something similar when I told him, he needed to move on. I have two cases that happened to me. One, where the DNA did not match up to the sire and I was unable to do anything about it because never could find out who the sire was. I did eventually get my money back after several months. Second time, I had a bitch I had bought and it came back with the proper DNA but when I bred her, she showed up with Demodetic Mange. Vet told me it showed up because of her immune system and the stress of having pups. I was informed all dogs carry it but their immune system keeps it in check so it does not develop. This is what Kansas state Vet. school told me along with my own vet. All the pups showed up with it. It is a genetic defect. I had to put all the pups down and including the ones I sold, before the problem was discovered. I gave everyone there money back. I tried to save the female by having her spade but it was to no good. After several hundred dollars in vet bills the vet said I needed to put her down. She was a field trial dog in which I had several thousand dollars invested in. But, I did the right thing and put her down. I did not blame the breeder because he did not know his female was a carrier. I let it go and moved on. Things like that happen.

As I said before I feel for Chuck he has put several thousand dollars out in this breeding. I made only a suggestion but it is his decision what he wants to do and only he can make it. I have met Chuck at a trial, in fact he tried to sell me a pup out of this breeding before they were born but, I had already purchased a Ace pup and did not want any another one at this time. As added note the Ace breeding was also artificially bred to a line bred Slick bitch. She produced liver and white pups.

Maybe when Chuck gets the DNA back he will know.

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Ahumphers91a » Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:07 pm

Maybe it's time to start importing more dog's for our GSP gene pool :wink:

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by dead mike » Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:02 am

Sorry and not wanting to sound like a smart "bleep" but maybe its time to get a pointer. :wink:

My friend has gone through the same thing with a big name in the GSP gene pool and its just downright wrong.

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:08 am

dead mike wrote:Sorry and not wanting to sound like a smart "bleep" but maybe its time to get a pointer. :wink:

My friend has gone through the same thing with a big name in the GSP gene pool and its just downright wrong.
You are right but it is just as much a problem for the pointers.

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by ACooper » Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:57 am

Brooks Carmichael wrote:
TAK wrote:Who sold you the straw?
Mark Wasserman is the owner of the straw. The semen was collected many years ago and is kept in storage at the collection site. The dog from which the semen is collected has to have been DNA'd at the time. The reason I know, I had semen collected from my dog. The vet. requested it and wanted the make sure the micro chip was correct for the dog. I also had to bring in registration papers and certified pedigree. I was not there when the semen was collected. But, this is reputable Vet Clinic and storage facilities. FC Sin City Slick Ace (Sire of Chuck's pups), which is out of NFC Heide's Mighty City Slicker. Ace has produced NFC Chisholm Creeks Cuttin Loose and NFC Chisholm Creeks Jax or Better, both with different bitches. Ace is grand sire of NFC BDK's Chloe's Jax of All Trades. I can name you several males and females that are out of Ace or he is the grandsire and they all are liver and white with liver patches and ticking. I currently have three off spring that are related to Ace and I purchased a daughter out of Ace that came from a Slick bred bitch. She has a liver head, liver spots and ticking. The bitch she came from, has produced produced three National Gun Dog Champions. And they are all liver and white with liver patches and liver ticking.

Things happen in breeding's that we sometimes we have no control over and cannot explain. As for Chuck Hanshaw jumping my case in early post he may felt he was justified. But, I had experienced in something similar when I told him, he needed to move on. I have two cases that happened to me. One, where the DNA did not match up to the sire and I was unable to do anything about it because never could find out who the sire was. I did eventually get my money back after several months. Second time, I had a bitch I had bought and it came back with the proper DNA but when I bred her, she showed up with Demodetic Mange. Vet told me it showed up because of her immune system and the stress of having pups. I was informed all dogs carry it but their immune system keeps it in check so it does not develop. This is what Kansas state Vet. school told me along with my own vet. All the pups showed up with it. It is a genetic defect. I had to put all the pups down and including the ones I sold, before the problem was discovered. I gave everyone there money back. I tried to save the female by having her spade but it was to no good. After several hundred dollars in vet bills the vet said I needed to put her down. She was a field trial dog in which I had several thousand dollars invested in. But, I did the right thing and put her down. I did not blame the breeder because he did not know his female was a carrier. I let it go and moved on. Things like that happen.

As I said before I feel for Chuck he has put several thousand dollars out in this breeding. I made only a suggestion but it is his decision what he wants to do and only he can make it. I have met Chuck at a trial, in fact he tried to sell me a pup out of this breeding before they were born but, I had already purchased a Ace pup and did not want any another one at this time. As added note the Ace breeding was also artificially bred to a line bred Slick bitch. She produced liver and white pups.

Maybe when Chuck gets the DNA back he will know.
No one is saying he doesn't produce winners, or that he only throws off color pups, that is an irrelevant argument to the topic at hand. Is this the first litter that you have heard of him throwing off color pups?

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by ElhewPointer » Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:07 pm

Jerry Springer would be so impressed. Who's your daddy?

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Cajun Casey » Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:44 pm

There is a lot more to this than a paternity questions. The pregnancy and pups were not healthy. There could be something totally out in left going on with that sample that has nothing to do with Ace or "e." Get the tests results and go from there.
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by wems2371 » Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:59 pm

Hanshaw wrote:Is there any pointer guys that would want the responsibility of having one of these pups they are I thought highly breed. If there is nothing I can do with these pups I would like to share what I have a small fortune in the breeding.the orange is a little runt and the lemon is a nice sized female. I only need one for the constant reminder, I had a feeling that something like this would happen. There is a dog out of my second breeding two cutter that has a tint of red and have several with the white ear.
Is this the grandsire being mentioned, to the litter we're discussing now? I don't know much about these lines of pedigrees, but this post caught my eye a while back.

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Cajun Casey » Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:03 pm

Cutter is an Ace son. Ace is a Slick II son. Ace is the father of the litter in question here.
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Brooks Carmichael » Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:19 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:There is a lot more to this than a paternity questions. The pregnancy and pups were not healthy. There could be something totally out in left going on with that sample that has nothing to do with Ace or "e." Get the tests results and go from there.
I am glad Cajun Casey brought this up, it could make everything else moot. The tests will help no doubt.

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by birddog1968 » Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:29 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
dead mike wrote:Sorry and not wanting to sound like a smart "bleep" but maybe its time to get a pointer. :wink:

My friend has gone through the same thing with a big name in the GSP gene pool and its just downright wrong.
You are right but it is just as much a problem for the pointers.

Ezzy

What problem? LOL no problem with pointers......
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:34 pm

Tell that to the long haired pointer pups plus several other things I have heard about.

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Angus » Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:11 pm

This has been a very interesting read. I am not a shorthair guy and do not follow lines or breeding's.

The other day I was driving through town. I got stopped at a redlight and noticed a woman walking a dog. I was really trying hard to look at the woman, but my eyes kept going to the dog. It looked like a Weim or shorthair with the color of a yellow lab. I thought it was odd since I had never seen a dog looking like this. i went to the store and started home when I saw her again with the dog. This time I parked and went over to her to talk about the dog. She claimed it was a purebred German Shorthair. I didn't argue or question her. It was a beautiful dog and I had no idea they even existed. She said she purchased it and is trying to find a male to breed it to that will produce more yellow pups. I went back to the truck and shook my head.

Anyhow. these pups should make good bird dogs for someone looking for a bird dog, but should not breed. I would be happy to take a pup and get it "fixed" before seeing them put down. While not what I would be looking for, it's not the pups fault.

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Hanshaw » Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:57 pm

The pregnancy was a cesection if that is what you meant by unhealthy ultra carry. The pups are healthy and we are waiting on DNA and I ordered the e test today.

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Cajun Casey » Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:11 pm

Hanshaw wrote:The pregnancy was a cesection if that is what you meant by unhealthy ultra carry. The pups are healthy and we are waiting on DNA and I ordered the e test today.
That was my statement. I thought you mentioned having an eye infection problem with the runt was why I said that. There are a number of dogs of this bloodline who have had autoimmune associated illnesses that have caused early death. Cancer, nocardia and kidney failure have been documented.

I am glad you are making an effort to get a legitimate explanation and keeping us informed.
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Karen » Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:16 pm

There is a DNA test called a MARS test that looks for breed markers. It can tell you what percentage of the DNA sample is what breed. Might want to send DNA in on one of the pups before you sell them.
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Hanshaw » Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:27 pm

Your right there was a double eye infection thanks for correcting me my apologize ultra carry.

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Hanshaw » Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:29 pm

The pups are not fore sale the runt is up for adoption with the stipulation that she is spayed

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by TAK » Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:38 pm

So is it at all possible that we had a sneeeekkkkyyyy pointer jump the fence?

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Cajun Casey » Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:47 pm

TAK wrote:So is it at all possible that we had a sneeeekkkkyyyy pointer jump the fence?
A recessive can hide for dozens of generations, then show up when two carriers are combined. With tight linebreeding, like here where the dam's dam is a littermate to the sire (Ace), the probability of that recessive meeting it's match are increased. Keep in mind, the E Locus is affected by other genes, so there may be something on the X that's acting here instead of it being a simple "ee."

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Hanshaw » Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:16 pm

There is no chance of a pointer jumping the fence. She is under constant watch via cameras.

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