orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Hanshaw
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Hanshaw » Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:09 am

You are absolutely right middle creek. I will spayed both females and never breed them they will not become registers. I am having three test ran and I am waiting for the e test and the mars test I can't find but I am still looking. I can tell you with all honesty that they won't return to the gene pool that much is certain. Thanks to all for the help full advise, I have a greater understanding now.chuck

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Cajun Casey
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Cajun Casey » Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:16 am

Hanshaw wrote:You are absolutely right middle creek. I will spayed both females and never breed them they will not become registers. I am having three test ran and I am waiting for the e test and the mars test I can't find but I am still looking. I can tell you with all honesty that they won't return to the gene pool that much is certain. Thanks to all for the help full advise, I have a greater understanding now.chuck
Mars is here. I wouldn't bother because it's not the information you need. I can tell you from first person reports that most shorthairs will come back as minor part golden retriever. No clue why.

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Middlecreek
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Middlecreek » Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:05 am

I just went back and read all the posts in this thread... Not that any of it is 100% impossible, but this thread is amazingly entertaining.

1. Light liver that looks lemon
2. Switched semen
3. Radioactive semen
4. Lemon alien abductions
5. People that think its a secret most GSP's have pointer in them
6. Genetic mutations
7. 24hr cameras and people to watch the footage
8. People that are in denial about #5
9. Albino pups
10. Lots of talk about woodsheds
11. People that think DNA test results come from GOD
12. Colorblindness
13. Broken sperm
14. Lots of bad semen juggling at the vets office
15. Jerry Springer
16. Pointer midnight rapists
17. Horse racing
18. MARS (maybe where the lemon aliens are from)
19. Tests. Hopefully standardized so we all get A's
20. People that think whatever line they have there is zero possibility of pointer in it
21. Disclosure: most Gsp's have skeletons in the distant past

No offense to ANYBODY, but you gotta admit the list without the content is pretty funny and entertaining even with the content of the thread.

I read on the Internet once that the Internet is the most reliable source of accurate information known to man.
FC/RU CH SM Queen High Flush (Abby) http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=3815
2xCH/2xruCH FC BDK's Sin City Wildcard (Deuce) http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=2269

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Cajun Casey
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Cajun Casey » Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:27 am

Middlecreek wrote:I just went back and read all the posts in this thread... Not that any of it is 100% impossible, but this thread is amazingly entertaining.

1. Light liver that looks lemon
2. Switched semen
3. Radioactive semen
4. Lemon alien abductions
5. People that think its a secret most GSP's have pointer in them
6. Genetic mutations
7. 24hr cameras and people to watch the footage
8. People that are in denial about #5
9. Albino pups
10. Lots of talk about woodsheds
11. People that think DNA test results come from GOD
12. Colorblindness
13. Broken sperm
14. Lots of bad semen juggling at the vets office
15. Jerry Springer
16. Pointer midnight rapists
17. Horse racing
18. MARS (maybe where the lemon aliens are from)
19. Tests. Hopefully standardized so we all get A's
20. People that think whatever line they have there is zero possibility of pointer in it
21. Disclosure: most Gsp's have skeletons in the distant past

No offense to ANYBODY, but you gotta admit the list without the content is pretty funny and entertaining even with the content of the thread.

I read on the Internet once that the Internet is the most reliable source of accurate information known to man.
So, your explanation would be?
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.

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Middlecreek
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Middlecreek » Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:06 am

Cajun Casey wrote:
Middlecreek wrote:I just went back and read all the posts in this thread... Not that any of it is 100% impossible, but this thread is amazingly entertaining.

1. Light liver that looks lemon
2. Switched semen
3. Radioactive semen
4. Lemon alien abductions.................

No offense to ANYBODY, but you gotta admit the list without the content is pretty funny and entertaining even with the content of the thread.

I read on the Internet once that the Internet is the most reliable source of accurate information known to man.
So, your explanation would be?
.

Don't know, and we probably never will for sure. Double ee? Fine, but where did that come from? When? And. who did it? Wrong sire mix up? That would make everything else is a moot point.
FC/RU CH SM Queen High Flush (Abby) http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=3815
2xCH/2xruCH FC BDK's Sin City Wildcard (Deuce) http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=2269

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Cajun Casey » Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:34 am

Middlecreek wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:
Middlecreek wrote:I just went back and read all the posts in this thread... Not that any of it is 100% impossible, but this thread is amazingly entertaining.

1. Light liver that looks lemon
2. Switched semen
3. Radioactive semen
4. Lemon alien abductions.................

No offense to ANYBODY, but you gotta admit the list without the content is pretty funny and entertaining even with the content of the thread.

I read on the Internet once that the Internet is the most reliable source of accurate information known to man.
So, your explanation would be?
.

Don't know, and we probably never will for sure. Double ee? Fine, but where did that come from? When? And. who did it? Wrong sire mix up? That would make everything else is a moot point.
"ee" or any other recessive could be from a hundred years ago. I have already gotten in contact with a vet that can further the investigation it's something outside the box.
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.

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ElhewPointer
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by ElhewPointer » Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:39 am

Middlecreek wrote:Why am I so unlucky? I've been breeding all along a lot tighter to Ace, his littermates, sons, daughters and slick lines in general and never get any of these "rare" colors???

What is the solution here? Let's be problem solvers, not problem finders. The problems find themselves without too much looking. What are you gonna do, strip 100's of national placements and countless other performance accomplishments then unregister half the dogs now competing because of something that may have happened 30 years ago. Then move to the next line of GSP's and destroy them. Let's be honest, do you really think the hardcore boys from yesteryear didn't switch things up a little just like every other breed. I've been around the old timers of a few different breeds and they most definately did what they could to improve their breed. Pointers to greyhounds, pointers to shorthairs, vislas to pointers, pointers to setters.... it goes on and on. You have to ask yourself, are the dogs of today better or worse for what we all do with them than they were 60 or 70 years ago? With DNA systems in place we can now monitor parentage and prevent it from happening. So what's the solution? Do all the tests in the world on these pups and their entire 10 generation pedigree and unless the sire is proven to be flat out wrong, nothing will ever come of it! The pups should be spayed or neutered and the breeding should not be repeated. End of story.

We have these games we play with our dogs and if you think they are good for the breed or not is entirely up to you, your opinion is your business, but we train and breed to make the best possible dogs for those games whichever it may be. You don't hear little kids say" I wanna grow up and play 40 and over flag football at the YMCA". They say "I wanna be a forty niner or raider or whatever" right? Well I want to grow up and win AF Open championships and Invitationals with a shorthair! Do I think there is pointer blood in a good number of GSP lines? Yes. Do I think Ace was a pointer? No, I've proved that for myself with my breeding program. Do I think it is ok to breed to pointers? No, it's cheating. I believe you would have to look real hard to find any breed that doesn't have skeletons in the closet somewhere in it's history. We have DNA requirements now to prevent it from happening. Someday canine DNA technology/research may come far enough along to give us ALL the answers we want, but I doubt even that would change our breed unless we wanted a total reset as most lines I'm sure would have issues, plus because of how long ago it took place it would affect most every successful line of today in some way.

Based on my experience and the fact that I've gotten liver/white and liver/roans out of my breedings that were tighter than this breeding I have my own theory, but since I'm not a finger pointer I will keep it to myself.

It sounds like chuk is going to drop a small fortune into tests and research on these pups and it will be interesting to see the results and if they actually give us any definitive answers as to exactly why this happened, but I'm not holding my breath.

+1

Well said.

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Middlecreek
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Middlecreek » Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:53 am

All the research is great and I'm all for it, but even if you could find out it was x breeding that produced y puppy that had z anomoly xx many years ago, what do you do? Spay and neuter 90% of all GSP's? Require thousands of dollars of testing before being allowed to breed? Like I said, I'm all for researching this, but what is the solution going to be when we have the answers? Will we have enough information to make any solid conclusions? What if includes all clown, rusty, slick, sonny, hustler, etc etc lines? I'm pretty confident we will never get that kind of information, but if we do what then? When it includes such a vast majority of the population then it just is the population. I realize for some this is like trying to tell the pope there is no God, but it is what it is and when things like this show up take the pups out of the breding population like he is doing and move on. Have not had to deal with this personally and hope I never do, but I think he is doing what should be done by spaying and doing the research he can. Unless it's a simple matter of wrong stud, which we will know soon enough, there won't be enough information to do anything about it and will calm back down to quiet rumors in the gallery just like alleged contraversies in all the other lines that are successful from show to field trials and everything in between.
FC/RU CH SM Queen High Flush (Abby) http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=3815
2xCH/2xruCH FC BDK's Sin City Wildcard (Deuce) http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=2269

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Cajun Casey » Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:07 am

Middlecreek wrote:All the research is great and I'm all for it, but even if you could find out it was x breeding that produced y puppy that had z anomoly xx many years ago, what do you do? Spay and neuter 90% of all GSP's? Require thousands of dollars of testing before being allowed to breed? Like I said, I'm all for researching this, but what is the solution going to be when we have the answers? Will we have enough information to make any solid conclusions? What if includes all clown, rusty, slick, sonny, hustler, etc etc lines? I'm pretty confident we will never get that kind of information, but if we do what then? When it includes such a vast majority of the population then it just is the population. I realize for some this is like trying to tell the pope there is no God, but it is what it is and when things like this show up take the pups out of the breding population like he is doing and move on. Have not had to deal with this personally and hope I never do, but I think he is doing what should be done by spaying and doing the research he can. Unless it's a simple matter of wrong stud, which we will know soon enough, there won't be enough information to do anything about it and will calm back down to quiet rumors in the gallery just like alleged contraversies in all the other lines that are successful from show to field trials and everything in between.
The test for "e" is relatively inexpensive and easy.

Another weird idea - comments have been made about how odd it is to produce two pups like this in a single breeding given that it's uncommon, but they could be identical twins.
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by cjuve » Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:05 am

Middlecreek wrote:All the research is great and I'm all for it, but even if you could find out it was x breeding that produced y puppy that had z anomoly xx many years ago, what do you do? Spay and neuter 90% of all GSP's? Require thousands of dollars of testing before being allowed to breed? Like I said, I'm all for researching this, but what is the solution going to be when we have the answers? Will we have enough information to make any solid conclusions? What if includes all clown, rusty, slick, sonny, hustler, etc etc lines? I'm pretty confident we will never get that kind of information, but if we do what then? When it includes such a vast majority of the population then it just is the population. I realize for some this is like trying to tell the pope there is no God, but it is what it is and when things like this show up take the pups out of the breding population like he is doing and move on. Have not had to deal with this personally and hope I never do, but I think he is doing what should be done by spaying and doing the research he can. Unless it's a simple matter of wrong stud, which we will know soon enough, there won't be enough information to do anything about it and will calm back down to quiet rumors in the gallery just like alleged contraversies in all the other lines that are successful from show to field trials and everything in between.

The internet is no place for common sense!!!! :lol:

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by jcbuttry8 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:21 am

Middlecreek wrote:I just went back and read all the posts in this thread... Not that any of it is 100% impossible, but this thread is amazingly entertaining.

1. Light liver that looks lemon
2. Switched semen
3. Radioactive semen
4. Lemon alien abductions
5. People that think its a secret most GSP's have pointer in them
6. Genetic mutations
7. 24hr cameras and people to watch the footage
8. People that are in denial about #5
9. Albino pups
10. Lots of talk about woodsheds
11. People that think DNA test results come from GOD
12. Colorblindness
13. Broken sperm
14. Lots of bad semen juggling at the vets office
15. Jerry Springer
16. Pointer midnight rapists
17. Horse racing
18. MARS (maybe where the lemon aliens are from)
19. Tests. Hopefully standardized so we all get A's
20. People that think whatever line they have there is zero possibility of pointer in it
21. Disclosure: most Gsp's have skeletons in the distant past

No offense to ANYBODY, but you gotta admit the list without the content is pretty funny and entertaining even with the content of the thread.

I read on the Internet once that the Internet is the most reliable source of accurate information known to man.
Maybe we should add this to the list:

Sometimes just sometimes, mother nature likes to reinforce that even though we love to play with genetics and set up tight breedings and should get the results that we expect, we will never be able to explain everything that happens. If all these tests come back with no right place to point a finger then what? It has been proven that the sire of this litter has thrown breed expectation. I'm assuming the same with the mothers past.

The crosses have taken place in the past and will in the future. You have to do your part to make it right. I believe that what Chuck did through the whole process even picking out the stud was done with good intentions and great expectations of the offspring. It sucks but hey that is sometimes how it happens.

No matter how much we like to believe we know everything, there is always something out there we didn't figure on.

Joe

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:21 am

Cajun Casey wrote:
Middlecreek wrote:All the research is great and I'm all for it, but even if you could find out it was x breeding that produced y puppy that had z anomoly xx many years ago, what do you do? Spay and neuter 90% of all GSP's? Require thousands of dollars of testing before being allowed to breed? Like I said, I'm all for researching this, but what is the solution going to be when we have the answers? Will we have enough information to make any solid conclusions? What if includes all clown, rusty, slick, sonny, hustler, etc etc lines? I'm pretty confident we will never get that kind of information, but if we do what then? When it includes such a vast majority of the population then it just is the population. I realize for some this is like trying to tell the pope there is no God, but it is what it is and when things like this show up take the pups out of the breding population like he is doing and move on. Have not had to deal with this personally and hope I never do, but I think he is doing what should be done by spaying and doing the research he can. Unless it's a simple matter of wrong stud, which we will know soon enough, there won't be enough information to do anything about it and will calm back down to quiet rumors in the gallery just like alleged contraversies in all the other lines that are successful from show to field trials and everything in between.
The test for "e" is relatively inexpensive and easy.

Another weird idea - comments have been made about how odd it is to produce two pups like this in a single breeding given that it's uncommon, but they could be identical twins.


Come on!!!!Identical twins with differewnt spots and different colors. Getting desperate it seems.

Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

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Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Cajun Casey » Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:26 am

ezzy333 wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:
Middlecreek wrote:All the research is great and I'm all for it, but even if you could find out it was x breeding that produced y puppy that had z anomoly xx many years ago, what do you do? Spay and neuter 90% of all GSP's? Require thousands of dollars of testing before being allowed to breed? Like I said, I'm all for researching this, but what is the solution going to be when we have the answers? Will we have enough information to make any solid conclusions? What if includes all clown, rusty, slick, sonny, hustler, etc etc lines? I'm pretty confident we will never get that kind of information, but if we do what then? When it includes such a vast majority of the population then it just is the population. I realize for some this is like trying to tell the pope there is no God, but it is what it is and when things like this show up take the pups out of the breding population like he is doing and move on. Have not had to deal with this personally and hope I never do, but I think he is doing what should be done by spaying and doing the research he can. Unless it's a simple matter of wrong stud, which we will know soon enough, there won't be enough information to do anything about it and will calm back down to quiet rumors in the gallery just like alleged contraversies in all the other lines that are successful from show to field trials and everything in between.
The test for "e" is relatively inexpensive and easy.

Another weird idea - comments have been made about how odd it is to produce two pups like this in a single breeding given that it's uncommon, but they could be identical twins.


Come on!!!!Identical twins with differewnt spots and different colors. Getting desperate it seems.

Ezzy
Look at clones.
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by ElhewPointer » Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:26 am

ezzy333 wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:
Middlecreek wrote:All the research is great and I'm all for it, but even if you could find out it was x breeding that produced y puppy that had z anomoly xx many years ago, what do you do? Spay and neuter 90% of all GSP's? Require thousands of dollars of testing before being allowed to breed? Like I said, I'm all for researching this, but what is the solution going to be when we have the answers? Will we have enough information to make any solid conclusions? What if includes all clown, rusty, slick, sonny, hustler, etc etc lines? I'm pretty confident we will never get that kind of information, but if we do what then? When it includes such a vast majority of the population then it just is the population. I realize for some this is like trying to tell the pope there is no God, but it is what it is and when things like this show up take the pups out of the breding population like he is doing and move on. Have not had to deal with this personally and hope I never do, but I think he is doing what should be done by spaying and doing the research he can. Unless it's a simple matter of wrong stud, which we will know soon enough, there won't be enough information to do anything about it and will calm back down to quiet rumors in the gallery just like alleged contraversies in all the other lines that are successful from show to field trials and everything in between.
The test for "e" is relatively inexpensive and easy.

Another weird idea - comments have been made about how odd it is to produce two pups like this in a single breeding given that it's uncommon, but they could be identical twins.


Come on!!!!Identical twins with differewnt spots and different colors. Getting desperate it seems.

Ezzy
+100,000

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Cajun Casey
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Cajun Casey » Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:36 am

Random distribution of X inactivation. Look it up.
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:56 am

Casey,

Congrats!!!!! You have now made 55 posts on this one topic. Thats about half of all the posts and we still don't know anything.

Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Cajun Casey » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:03 am

ezzy333 wrote:Casey,

Congrats!!!!! You have now made 55 posts on this one topic. Thats about half of all the posts and we still don't know anything.

Ezzy
Would you like me to mail you a copy of the E Locus chapter from Little's book so you can follow along?
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by LBH » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:09 am

Hold up, you're tellin' me that my shorthair MIGHT have some pointer in him? Tell me it isn't so!
Image

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by TAK » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:24 am

LBH wrote:Hold up, you're tellin' me that my shorthair MIGHT have some pointer in him? Tell me it isn't so!
Image
Ya just don't see many folks these days not docking a Shorthair's tail... Did you import this one and they would not dock the tail????

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by LBH » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:37 am

His tail is docked...those Germans just like them a little longer!

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Highway Ends Kennel » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:46 am

ElhewPointer wrote:
Middlecreek wrote:Why am I so unlucky? I've been breeding all along a lot tighter to Ace, his littermates, sons, daughters and slick lines in general and never get any of these "rare" colors???

What is the solution here? Let's be problem solvers, not problem finders. The problems find themselves without too much looking. What are you gonna do, strip 100's of national placements and countless other performance accomplishments then unregister half the dogs now competing because of something that may have happened 30 years ago. Then move to the next line of GSP's and destroy them. Let's be honest, do you really think the hardcore boys from yesteryear didn't switch things up a little just like every other breed. I've been around the old timers of a few different breeds and they most definately did what they could to improve their breed. Pointers to greyhounds, pointers to shorthairs, vislas to pointers, pointers to setters.... it goes on and on. You have to ask yourself, are the dogs of today better or worse for what we all do with them than they were 60 or 70 years ago? With DNA systems in place we can now monitor parentage and prevent it from happening. So what's the solution? Do all the tests in the world on these pups and their entire 10 generation pedigree and unless the sire is proven to be flat out wrong, nothing will ever come of it! The pups should be spayed or neutered and the breeding should not be repeated. End of story.

We have these games we play with our dogs and if you think they are good for the breed or not is entirely up to you, your opinion is your business, but we train and breed to make the best possible dogs for those games whichever it may be. You don't hear little kids say" I wanna grow up and play 40 and over flag football at the YMCA". They say "I wanna be a forty niner or raider or whatever" right? Well I want to grow up and win AF Open championships and Invitationals with a shorthair! Do I think there is pointer blood in a good number of GSP lines? Yes. Do I think Ace was a pointer? No, I've proved that for myself with my breeding program. Do I think it is ok to breed to pointers? No, it's cheating. I believe you would have to look real hard to find any breed that doesn't have skeletons in the closet somewhere in it's history. We have DNA requirements now to prevent it from happening. Someday canine DNA technology/research may come far enough along to give us ALL the answers we want, but I doubt even that would change our breed unless we wanted a total reset as most lines I'm sure would have issues, plus because of how long ago it took place it would affect most every successful line of today in some way.

Based on my experience and the fact that I've gotten liver/white and liver/roans out of my breedings that were tighter than this breeding I have my own theory, but since I'm not a finger pointer I will keep it to myself.

It sounds like chuk is going to drop a small fortune into tests and research on these pups and it will be interesting to see the results and if they actually give us any definitive answers as to exactly why this happened, but I'm not holding my breath.

+1

Well said.
+2

I think it's great we have such a wide range of variety and traits to choose from within the breed. You can still get a shorthair exactly like the ones imported to the US a hundred years ago. Or you can get a lighter, faster version with a few more gears :D . There is also everything in-between those two ranges available. The heavier bigger boned German imports don't hold up as well for the temps and terrain I hunt here in Arizona which is why I lean more towards the HB trial breed dogs. I'm sure the opposite is true for people in different parts of the country.

The point is we have allot to choose from within the breed which is a good thing. This is not the case with some of the other hunting breeds such as the Viszla. Everybody knows that cross-breeding was done in the past for almost every breed for different reasons. DNA testing now prevents this for the most part (cheaters will always find a way to cheat). What we have now is what what we have as far as bloodlines. Let's continue to identify genetic faults and eliminate them from the gene pool. Just be careful about focusing on the facts first, and not immediately suggesting certain bloodlines and kennels are at fault. These are people's lively hoods and reputations we're talking about and some of them have spent years working to establish these operations.

Everybody pretty much has access to the top bloodlines being used today for the different competitions. At least it seems like there are allot of litters available out of some of the top dogs in the country. So if you want to compete, pick a dog or line of dogs and go to it!!

On a side note, I would agree that the internet is the most accurate and abundant source of information ever invented. You just have to be able and willing to separate the 99% of BS that is mixed in with it!!

I move that we add #22 - IDENTICAL TWINS, to Middlecreek's list and put it in the Hall of Fame Section :D
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by TAK » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:49 am

LBH wrote:His tail is docked...those Germans just like them a little longer!
Guess it's like breeding an UN-PROVEN dog or something like that...Aahhh...

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Cajun Casey » Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:09 pm

TAK wrote:
LBH wrote:His tail is docked...those Germans just like them a little longer!
Guess it's like breeding an UN-PROVEN dog or something like that...Aahhh...
It pretty much looks like a dog to me. What kind of proof you looking for? :D
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Brooks Carmichael » Wed Nov 28, 2012 12:55 pm

on and on it goes

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Cajun Casey » Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:09 pm

Brooks Carmichael wrote:on and on it goes
Seriously? It scares me. Kind of like living under high voltage power lines and finding out your neighbor's kid has cancer, you know? Folks, something ain't right here and I want to know why. For half a dozen years or so there's been a wink and nod approach to lupoid dermatosis. Now, you've got a chance to isolate and explain a breed genetic, maybe health, issue. Let's see what the preliminary DNA results are. Then, hopefully, people with the bloodline will step up and provide comparative samples if it turns out to be a genetic disease and not just an unfortunate meeting of genes.
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by dan v » Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:11 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Casey,

Congrats!!!!! You have now made 55 posts on this one topic. Thats about half of all the posts and we still don't know anything.

Ezzy
Baloney...you learned that a cloned animal does NOT have to have the same markings as the original.
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by ElhewPointer » Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:11 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:
Brooks Carmichael wrote:on and on it goes
Seriously? It scares me. Kind of like living under high voltage power lines and finding out your neighbor's kid has cancer, you know? Folks, something ain't right here and I want to know why. For half a dozen years or so there's been a wink and nod approach to lupoid dermatosis. Now, you've got a chance to isolate and explain a breed genetic, maybe health, issue. Let's see what the preliminary DNA results are. Then, hopefully, people with the bloodline will step up and provide comparative samples if it turns out to be a genetic disease and not just an unfortunate meeting of genes.
You need to stop drinking the "Kool-Aid". Wow

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Cajun Casey » Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:42 pm

Wyndancer wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:Casey,

Congrats!!!!! You have now made 55 posts on this one topic. Thats about half of all the posts and we still don't know anything.

Ezzy
Baloney...you learned that a cloned animal does NOT have to have the same markings as the original.
CC, a brown tabby and white cat was cloned in 2001 from a calico and white donor. You can find more information on her and the X/color relationship on TX A&M's site.
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:08 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:Casey,

Congrats!!!!! You have now made 55 posts on this one topic. Thats about half of all the posts and we still don't know anything.

Ezzy
Would you like me to mail you a copy of the E Locus chapter from Little's book so you can follow along?
Sure, I am sure you will have plenty of time if you just cut back a little on here. When should I expect it?

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orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by cmc274 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:16 pm

It's the risk you take when your cross breed or look to concentrate the genes of dogs that were previously cross bred via line breeding. I don't think it's surprising, ground breaking or really even note worthy that dogs with a strong dose of pointer have tail sets like, run like or are colored like pointers. Isn't that the point of these kind of breedings anyways?

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by CHJIII » Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:47 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:Casey,

Congrats!!!!! You have now made 55 posts on this one topic. Thats about half of all the posts and we still don't know anything.

Ezzy
Would you like me to mail you a copy of the E Locus chapter from Little's book so you can follow along?
Sure, I am sure you will have plenty of time if you just cut back a little on here. When should I expect it?

Ezzy
Hard to say if Ezzy is just being plain mean or is having fun. At least she's thrown out a multitude of possibilities that could be elimintated one by one and narrow it down. Sounds like Mr. Hanshaw is doing the right thing by trying to nail down the real issue. Hats off to him. Most people would sweep it under the rug and get on.

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:53 pm

CHJIII wrote: Hard to say if Ezzy is just being plain mean or is having fun. At least she's thrown out a multitude of possibilities that could be elimintated one by one and narrow it down. Sounds like Mr. Hanshaw is doing the right thing by trying to nail down the real issue. Hats off to him. Most people would sweep it under the rug and get on.
I think you are right. Some one needs to find out what is going on.

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orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by ACooper » Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:33 pm

Not sure why so many have a problem with so many possibilities being brought up.

I guess most would rather blame a "mix up" at the vet...

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by fuzznut » Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:45 pm

Here is my question to this problem.....
What is to be done about it?
Will the owner of the sire refund the stud fee if indeed the DNA matches up? How have they responded to this situation? Is a refund expected? Should it be expected?

A rhetorical question maybe... just wondering how any of us would respond if this happened from a stud dog we owned?
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by brad27 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:34 pm

fuzznut wrote:Here is my question to this problem.....
What is to be done about it?
Will the owner of the sire refund the stud fee if indeed the DNA matches up? How have they responded to this situation? Is a refund expected? Should it be expected?

A rhetorical question maybe... just wondering how any of us would respond if this happened from a stud dog we owned?
fuzz
Valid question. What would you do if something like this came up with a dog you owned? It doesn't have to be a color issue. What if it was an other genetic defect.

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Cajun Casey » Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:43 pm

brad27 wrote:
fuzznut wrote:Here is my question to this problem.....
What is to be done about it?
Will the owner of the sire refund the stud fee if indeed the DNA matches up? How have they responded to this situation? Is a refund expected? Should it be expected?

A rhetorical question maybe... just wondering how any of us would respond if this happened from a stud dog we owned?
fuzz
Valid question. What would you do if something like this came up with a dog you owned? It doesn't have to be a color issue. What if it was an other genetic defect.
We have OFA and CHIC and studies across the spectrum of genetic disease at every vet school in the country. That's a start.
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Ms. Cage » Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:11 pm

brad27 wrote:Valid question. What would you do if something like this came up with a dog you owned? It doesn't have to be a color issue. What if it was an other genetic defect.
We've been there. Blitz was bred to a female and all the pups were diabetic. Some were still born, some died a few weeks after birth, a couple lived few yrs I guess. We returned the stud fee right after the pups were born. We never had a diabetic pup produced since or before . Howie did chose to pull Blitz from the gene pool. Sometimes the wrong genes just hook up. We do know the heart break. Blitz produced 5 VC's 3 MH's from very limited breeding.

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Middlecreek » Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:41 pm

Why are we still pointing the fingers at the stud? Plenty of possibilities what's going on here, but why is it the stud that always gets blamed? They don't deserve all the credit when they produce greatness and they don't deserve all the blame when it turns out less than desireable! Some think there is a "smoking gun" here and others are just mistified by it, but it is all directed towards the sire. How's the saying go? The most obvious conclusion is probably the correct one or something like that... oh, and on a side note on a completely different subject not related to this at all that has nothing to do with this thread just out of curiosity for no real reason at all on a completely different train of thought could somebody post pictures of the grandsires and granddams and possibly some of their offspring?

If we're gonna bark up trees we might as well bark up all of them right?
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Ms. Cage » Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:46 pm

Middlecreek wrote:Why are we still pointing the fingers at the stud? Plenty of possibilities what's going on here, but why is it the stud that always gets blamed?
I think most folks know it takes 2 to produce the good and bad. For us it's take responsability for your part and action you feel is right..
Last edited by Ms. Cage on Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Cajun Casey » Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:52 pm

Middlecreek wrote:Why are we still pointing the fingers at the stud? Plenty of possibilities what's going on here, but why is it the stud that always gets blamed? They don't deserve all the credit when they produce greatness and they don't deserve all the blame when it turns out less than desireable! Some think there is a "smoking gun" here and others are just mistified by it, but it is all directed towards the sire. How's the saying go? The most obvious conclusion is probably the correct one or something like that... oh, and on a side note on a completely different subject not related to this at all that has nothing to do with this thread just out of curiosity for no real reason at all on a completely different train of thought could somebody post pictures of the grandsires and granddams and possibly some of their offspring?

If we're gonna bark up trees we might as well bark up all of them right?
Males get used more than females in a given gene pool. Every case I know of where a breed was very nearly trashed was due to popular sire syndrome in breeding.
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orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by ACooper » Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:56 pm

[quote="Middlecreek"]Why are we still pointing the fingers at the stud? Plenty of possibilities what's going on here, but why is it the stud that always gets blamed? They don't deserve all the credit when they produce greatness and they don't deserve all the blame when it turns out less than desireable! Some think there is a "smoking gun" here and others are just mistified by it, but it is all directed towards the sire. How's the saying go? [quote]

Very valid point.

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by brad27 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:00 pm

My question was a hypothetical one I didn't mention the sex of the dog.

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by brad27 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:08 pm

Middlecreek wrote:Why are we still pointing the fingers at the stud? Plenty of possibilities what's going on here, but why is it the stud that always gets blamed? They don't deserve all the credit when they produce greatness and they don't deserve all the blame when it turns out less than desireable! Some think there is a "smoking gun" here and others are just mistified by it, but it is all directed towards the sire. How's the saying go? The most obvious conclusion is probably the correct one or something like that... oh, and on a side note on a completely different subject not related to this at all that has nothing to do with this thread just out of curiosity for no real reason at all on a completely different train of thought could somebody post pictures of the grandsires and granddams and possibly some of their offspring?

If we're gonna bark up trees we might as well bark up all of them right?
Why do you want to take that path?

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Middlecreek » Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:38 pm

brad27 wrote:
Middlecreek wrote:Why are we still pointing the fingers at the stud? Plenty of possibilities what's going on here, but why is it the stud that always gets blamed? They don't deserve all the credit when they produce greatness and they don't deserve all the blame when it turns out less than desireable! Some think there is a "smoking gun" here and others are just mistified by it, but it is all directed towards the sire. How's the saying go? The most obvious conclusion is probably the correct one or something like that... oh, and on a side note on a completely different subject not related to this at all that has nothing to do with this thread just out of curiosity for no real reason at all on a completely different train of thought could somebody post pictures of the grandsires and granddams and possibly some of their offspring?

If we're gonna bark up trees we might as well bark up all of them right?
Why do you want to take that path?
Same reason you DON'T want to take that path... look at the dogs in our signatures. Yours are Sonny bred, mine are Slick bred. We will never have a definitive answer to the question of what has taken place here so let us even up the playing field and not make this a witch hunt for one line or the other... I have to apologize because I really am not like that, my excrement smells just as bad as everybody elses, but it was getting a little one sided.
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Middlecreek » Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:47 pm

I've been sucked into this way too far all ready and will respectfully bow out. I will be anxiously awaiting the research and test results, but like I said before I'm not holding my breath. Best of luck on the quest for eternal truth.
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by bb560m » Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:17 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:Males get used more than females in a given gene pool. Every case I know of where a breed was very nearly trashed was due to popular sire syndrome in breeding.
IMO happening to field vizslas right now ;).

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by dan v » Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:36 am

fuzznut wrote:Here is my question to this problem.....
What is to be done about it?
Will the owner of the sire refund the stud fee if indeed the DNA matches up? How have they responded to this situation? Is a refund expected? Should it be expected?

A rhetorical question maybe... just wondering how any of us would respond if this happened from a stud dog we owned?
fuzz
Why should the stud owner refund? What we offer, on live cover is this. Two lives puppies constitutes a litters (heck make it three), less than that you get return service. There's no guarantee for color.

Now, this event is different yet, in that it was a frozen breeding. The owner of the straws has that many less, of a non-replaceable number.
Dan

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by adogslife » Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:05 am

Doesn't the owner of the bitch deserve,at least, a reasonable expectation of type?

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by ElhewPointer » Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:18 am

adogslife wrote:Doesn't the owner of the bitch deserve,at least, a reasonable expectation of type?
How many litters has she had? If this is her first litter, id put just as much "blame" on her, if not more.

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by adogslife » Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:35 am

Was there full disclousure by the stud owner that there is EP in the line?
or are we still assuming the staws were exposed to radiation or mixed up during the proceedure or this being a throwback from 100+ years ago?
It takes 2 to tango, disclousure may have been helpful to the bitch owner.

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