orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

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ACooper
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by ACooper » Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:54 pm

V-John wrote:Why did the last two posts get deleted?
More than that got deleted.

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by V-John » Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:26 am

ACooper wrote:
V-John wrote:Why did the last two posts get deleted?
More than that got deleted.

I figured that when Ezzy made a reference to you. Guess that what getting to be a mod here does.

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:52 am

And what do you expect a mod anywhere to do? There is a reason this forum is growing and well while most are dying or dead. I am quite confident that if you knew what the mods do, you would come to the same conclusions.

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Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Brooks Carmichael » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:21 am

ezzy333 wrote:And what do you expect a mod anywhere to do? There is a reason this forum is growing and well while most are dying or dead. I am quite confident that if you knew what the mods do, you would come to the same conclusions.

Ezzy

It was something that needed to be done

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orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by ACooper » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:16 pm

Instead of picking and choosing what got deleted the entire thread should be deleted, a new post can be started when the results are in.

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:26 pm

I hate to do that since so many were waiting to see what the results from the tests show. Otherwise you may be right. I saw nothing wrong with it when we were talking dogs but then when it gets carried over into people accusing people there is no place for that and no reason for it to go that way. We constantly hear about everyone trying to improve the breed and yet it seems everytime a question comes up about something that might actually have something to do with that goal, then people want it all hushed up. Unless some one has something to hide there is no reason for us not to discuss it. Sounds like this is a case where someone made a mistake and if that is true we need to hear it so people do not continue to spread rumors that sre not true about a dog.

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http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Cajun Casey » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:37 pm

Considering the holidays, it will probably be at least three weeks before the necesary results are obtained.
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by V-John » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:44 pm

ACooper wrote:Instead of picking and choosing what got deleted the entire thread should be deleted, a new post can be started when the results are in.
This right here. And Im very well aware of mods do. It isnt rocket science contray to what some might think. Nor are mods special or superhuman contrary to what they think of themselves.

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Cajun Casey » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:07 pm

Why not just lock it? When the test results come back, it will be a whole different issue anyway. He just wanted help with the situation, now he's gotten it and it's a waiting game.
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by wems2371 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:09 pm

ACooper wrote:Instead of picking and choosing what got deleted the entire thread should be deleted, a new post can be started when the results are in.
I'm 50% pro-delete with you. :D The 50% of my anti-delete decision is based on learning things I didn't otherwise know, that result from these discussions. I'm not speaking from a pointing fingers perspective, but from an entire breed and genetics, and the discussions that result. Like Mountaindogs experience with CD, that wasn't really something on my radar or that I had explored the thought of prior. I think this discussion probably spurred a few more threads of value as well.

Good idea Cajun.

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:01 pm

wems2371 wrote:
ACooper wrote:Instead of picking and choosing what got deleted the entire thread should be deleted, a new post can be started when the results are in.
I'm 50% pro-delete with you. :D The 50% of my anti-delete decision is based on learning things I didn't otherwise know, that result from these discussions. I'm not speaking from a pointing fingers perspective, but from an entire breed and genetics, and the discussions that result. Like Mountaindogs experience with CD, that wasn't really something on my radar or that I had explored the thought of prior. I think this discussion probably spurred a few more threads of value as well.

Good idea Cajun.
I agree and hope it has been helpful. I see no reason to lock it as long as people can be civil. But if not that will be what happens. I took the objectable posts out rather than just delete the whole thing. Maybe that was wrong but was my decision at the time. Thanks for your ideas on the thread. Now all I have to worry about is how to handle the mod who thinks he is super human amd special as he struggles to his feet and heads to the kitchen before going out to move some birds.

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http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by V-John » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:09 pm

And some members can be eliminated when they get too full of themselves.Al



I see no reason to justify this threat that I recieved via pm. I didnt attack anyone personally or publicly. I didnt specify you either, but apparently you took it that way.

As an aside, Ive been hunting and looking for a board member's lost dog all day. Just got a notice about the pm via phone.

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by ACooper » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:26 pm

My problem with the picking and choosing is it seems to be one sided, all these claims by folks that they have never seen off colored pups from this line are still up. The claim by Hanshaw that the person who sold him the straw told him after the bitch was bred that there could be off colored pups has been deleted.

My point is if its about the dogs that should have been left it wasn't personal or an attack. Or delete all of it.

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Blue Dawn Kennel » Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:54 am

Ezzy I totally understand your position and I am sorry I put you in that position. I let a bad situation go wrong. AC I also understand what your saying and just from my thoughts on the owner of the semen saying that "I find hard to believe, but I don't know the conversation and wasn't there". I also am curious as to how the DNA turns out on the dam and the pups as I've been hearing this for 4 months now. As I had stated in an early post which I'm not sure is still seeable or not. The sire, grand sire for sure where AKC DNA'd, they were before the Healthgene color/coat tests came out so I don't know how that part would play out. I can say and have said previously that we've been breeding these same lines (the Slick lines) for 20 yrs and not had an issue that we've seen or that we have heard of until now. All I'm saying is just what I know. That female has been bred tight Slick lines before this litter and not had a problem till the female was taken out to something totally out. Just saying and who knows for sure. Everyone have a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by buff » Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:51 am

This topic has been very helpful. I think all parties involved will benefit in the long run.

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by fourseasons » Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:44 pm

FWIW, in Pointers (aka, English Pointers), the "orange" color is recessive to black, and the "lemon" color is recessive to liver. Note that coat color is NOT how orange and lemon are determined - rather that's based on pigmentation of the skin, primarily visible on the nose, eyerims, lips and pads of feet. Black pigmentation on the nose of an orange puppy can take several weeks to show. Generally you can tell at birth if the pup will be orange by checking inside the ear flap for a "charcoal" coloration. And if the puppy's pigmentation is black, and the coat color is anywhere from a very light sand color to a dark mahogany the dog is genetically "orange." You can have the same coat color range with liver/brown pigmentation and the dog is genetically "lemon!"

A black Pointer can carry all four colors (black, liver, orange and lemon), and produce all four colors when bred to another black Pointer if that other Pointer also carries all four colors. You can also have a black Pointer that only carries black and liver. And, you can have a black Pointer that is dominant black and will only produce black no matter to what color it is bred (though the pups might carry for any color depending on the other parent's genetic makeup). If you breed a lemon to a lemon you will ONLY get lemon puppies - nothing else! An orange bred to an orange may produce orange and/or lemon depending if both oranges carry the liver gene.

A dominant black would be BBEE (true for purebred GSP)
Black carrying orange BBEe
Black carrying liver BbEE (true for purebred GSP)
Black all four colors BbEe

Liver not carrying lemon bbEE (true for purebred GSP)
Liver carrying lemon bbEe

Orange not carrying liver BBee
Orange carrying liver Bbee
(all TRUE oranges genetically carry at least one BIG B)

Lemon is always bbee

Genetically "pure" GSP will only ever show liver or black coat color and will not be carrying a "little e" gene. Just because a GSP has never produced lemon or orange doesn't mean there's no possibility of Pointer in its recent heritage... if hypothetically a GSP was bred to a Pointer that doesn't carry orange/lemon genes, that breeding would only produce black and/or liver anyway with no possibility of passing on an orange or lemon gene :-)

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by dan v » Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:02 am

ACooper wrote:
V-John wrote:Why did the last two posts get deleted?
More than that got deleted.
Wow! Two weeks worth of posts in this topic got axed. Some IMO weren't confrontational and actually contained good info, ( quoted article from Dr. Jerold Bell) were deleted.
Dan

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by fourseasons » Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:20 am

My 'better half' states a belief that the German GSP registry decades ago didn't allow black-to-black GSP breeding, only black to liver, in order to ensure the breed didn't lose the liver gene (by avoiding the creation of a dominant black dog BBEE - which would only ever produce black no matter to what color it was bred). Not sure if that's still true today. The FCI GSP standard is based on the German GSP registry: (deutsch-kurzhaar.de), and allows "yellow/tan markings". Note that the tri-color coat inheritance (markings like a tri-color English Setter, Springer Spaniel, Doberman, etc.) is a different gene from that of the lemon/orange coat color inheritance. Supposedly it's not the "e" series that creates tri-color markings. Perhaps someone who has correspondence with the Deutsch-Kurzhaar registry in Germany can answer that question more clearly if the registries mean "markings" (like a Dobe, Setter) or "coat color" such as orange and lemon.

To find laboratories that test for coat color (and other coat inheritance related genes, do an online search for "canine coat color testing". One such lab (NOT the dog breed <G>) is Veterinary Genetics Laboratory at UC Davis http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/coatcolordog.php -- this is not an endorsement of any kind, just a FWIW.

Note that back in the 70's Pointer was purposely bred to Dalmatian to eliminate the Dalmatian genetic defect LUA which results in agonizing pain and usually early death for a Dalmation (see an article here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... rious.html, or do a browser search on "pointer dalmatian cross lua"). You'll see from the previous article link that many generations later, and with DNA testing, there's STILL a brew-ha-ha about registration of those dogs as purebred Dalmatians through the AKC and the British KC.

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Ahumphers91a » Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:39 pm

Where's the results Chuck? Just wondering how it all turned out.
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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Hanshaw » Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:37 pm

Still waiting on and for the results from akc

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by chiendog » Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:04 am

Just noticed some orange and white gsp's in the local kijiji.

http://winnipeg.kijiji.ca/c-pets-dogs-p ... Z445267226

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by fourseasons » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:17 am

That was an interesting link w. photos! The puppies shown are lemon vs. orange (ie, they don't have black pigmentation) - which means that both parents carried the lemon gene... hmmmm... maybe both parents are related to each other as well?

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Vision » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:20 am

chiendog wrote:Just noticed some orange and white gsp's in the local kijiji.

http://winnipeg.kijiji.ca/c-pets-dogs-p ... Z445267226

This is exactly why "e" carriers and "e" phenotype GSP need to be spayed/neuter/putdown.

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Cajun Casey » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:34 am

BDBD wrote:That was an interesting link w. photos! The puppies shown are lemon vs. orange (ie, they don't have black pigmentation) - which means that both parents carried the lemon gene... hmmmm... maybe both parents are related to each other as well? :-)
Why don't you contact the seller and ask the pedigree?

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Brooks Carmichael » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:26 am

chiendog wrote:Just noticed some orange and white gsp's in the local kijiji.

http://winnipeg.kijiji.ca/c-pets-dogs-p ... Z445267226

From the photo's none of the pups look that healthy. I for one would like to know the back ground on these pups. A pedigree would be most helpful.

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by cjhills » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:33 am

At least one looks like a yellow lab

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:36 pm

I emailed them and asked for the pedigree. I will be surprised if I get anything.

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Cajun Casey » Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:10 pm

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:I emailed them and asked for the pedigree. I will be surprised if I get anything.
Well, if you do, let us know what you find out, please and thank you.

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by cjuve » Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:15 pm

cjhills wrote:At least one looks like a yellow lab
Definate suspect I wonder if there could be a multiple sire issue.....

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by fourseasons » Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:52 pm

Two worthwhile books that describe the inheritance of coat colors and patterns in dogs are The Inheritance of Coat Color in Dogs by (the late) Clarence C. Little, and Inheritance in Dogs with Special Reference to the Hunting Breeds by (the late) Ojvind Winge. Both are excellent references on this topic, and the Winge book is especially apropos to working breeds!

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Ahumphers91a » Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:57 pm

Those pup's look like little Bracco Italiano's with shorter ears..LOL

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by ymepointer » Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:21 am

I second that book by winge.......

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Saddle » Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:30 am

BDBD wrote:That was an interesting link w. photos! The puppies shown are lemon vs. orange (ie, they don't have black pigmentation) - which means that both parents carried the lemon gene... hmmmm... maybe both parents are related to each other as well?

So if a dog is orange with no black points you consider him lemon? Just trying to understand.

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by Back » Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:46 am

chiendog wrote:Just noticed some orange and white gsp's in the local kijiji.

http://winnipeg.kijiji.ca/c-pets-dogs-p ... Z445267226
The ad has been deleted... Interesting!

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by fourseasons » Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:04 pm

In Pointers, "orange" and "lemon" (the red/yellow gene represented by "e") can both have coat colors ranging from light sandy color all the way to a dark mahogany. The distinction between an orange and lemon genetically is that orange will have black pigmentation (nose, eyerims, lips, pads of feet) and lemon will have brown/liver/"self colored" pigmentation. So, you can have a dark colored dog that is genetically lemon, and a very light colored dog that is genetically orange.

Here's a great example showing an orange puppy and a lemon puppy side by side
(deleted thiat link, as SubMariner says it has a warning flag when viewed with WebOfTrust browser add-on)


Here's an example of a genetically lemon Pointer with an extreme 'mahogany' coat color
(the links below are from the PointerRescue.Org [PRO] website):

http://www.pointerrescue.org/img/shelters.jpg

and another:

pointerrescue.org/dogs/114191-P-D-OK.htm

A mostly body white lemon:
pointerrescue.org/dogs/102663-P-D-CA.htm

A mostly body white orange:
pointerrescue.org/dogs/041802-P-D-CA.htm

Another orange:
pointerrescue.org/dogs/0242-R-D-GA.htm

In fact, you can see hundreds of photos of Pointers of all four colors listed on PRO's website - check out the links to photos of rescued dogs here:
pointerrescue.org/dogs/adopted2.php

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by SubMariner » Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:29 pm

[quote="BDBD"]In Pointers, "orange" and "lemon" (the red/yellow gene represented by "e") can both have coat colors ranging from light sandy color all the way to a dark mahogany. The distinction between an orange and lemon genetically is that orange will have black pigmentation (nose, eyerims, lips, pads of feet) and lemon will have brown/liver/"self colored" pigmentation. So, you can have a dark colored dog that is genetically lemon, and a very light colored dog that is genetically orange.

Here's a great example showing an orange puppy and a lemon puppy side by side (this links to Breilla Pointer Kennels web page - Australia):

http://www.breillakennels.20m.com/image ... mon01b.jpg"

This link is "forbidden" & WOT gives it a big red warning.

Just thought you'd like to know.

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by fourseasons » Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:03 pm

SubMariner wrote: This link is "forbidden" & WOT gives it a big red warning.
Just thought you'd like to know.
Hmmm... maybe WebOfTrust doesn't like the free hosting site 20m.com, or that the link is directly to the photo vs. the kennel webpage?
Thanks for the info - I edited my earlier e-mail and removed that link just to be on the safe side. I just remembered seeing the photo one day when I was doing some online research and thought it was a worthwhile visual of an orange Pointer and lemon Pointer side by side. Guess viewers will have to use their discretion as to whether or not to check out that photo, but I took the link off anyway.

Here's another link to a page that has an orange Pointer photo and lemon Pointer photo next to one another (check midway down page):
http://www.englishpointer.at/THEPOINTER.html
This site also has photos of solid-colored Pointers and a tri-colored Pointer (the tri-color gene is different than the "b" and "e" genes for black/liver and red/yellow coat color).

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Re: orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Post by CamoGirl » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:53 am

hi all.. sorry for the late post on this topic, I am new here to GDF.
I have recently bought a lemon and white gsp. definitely purebred, both parents are liver and white. there were 3 out of the litter of 11 pups that were lemon and white.
my pup has changed a lot in colour since I got him 9 weeks ago, he has gone from a real lemon colour, to a burnt orange. here in Australia we call that colour a 'dead sunburnt'. I am not certain yet if Tyson is a dilute, orange or dead sunburnt but I am leaning towards a dilute.
I have never seen a lemon and white gsp before, how many of you own one? I got Tyson with the intention to breed with my gsp bitch who is black and white.
I have attached a picture of Tyson at 18 weeks old so you can see his colouring.
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Tyson at 18 week old
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