orange and white and lemon and white german shorthairs

Hanshaw · Post by **Hanshaw** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:24 pm

I have a question concerning the real color of a German shorthair if I this white than the whole body is white and if a white pup has markings then well you would not see the markings. Should I register my German shorthair pups white when the are infact orange and lemon. If someone could shine some light on this subject I would be thankful.or should I destroy them or pass them as hunting dogs when the e gene is in the breed any way. Thanks chuck

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:35 pm

German shorthaired pointers correctly come in black or liver with their patterns being solid, patched, patched and ticked, or patched and roan. Even dogs with the double pointer "e" will have visible color and patterning by the time they are two weeks old unless they are albinos. I don't believe you could get an orange shorthair, only lemon, but that may be totally off.

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:41 pm

Hanshaw wrote:I have a question concerning the real color of a German shorthair if I this white than the whole body is white and if a white pup has markings then well you would not see the markings. Should I register my German shorthair pups white when the are infact orange and lemon. If someone could shine some light on this subject I would be thankful.or should I destroy them or pass them as hunting dogs when the e gene is in the breed any way

IMO I would find homes for the pups and withhold the reg. papers.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:42 pm

Are these newborns? What color are their noses?

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:44 pm

I'd like to see a ped if you can.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:59 pm

I'm with find them homes and with hold the papers.

Hanshaw · Post by **Hanshaw** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:31 pm

The pups are out of cally which is out of shake the bank and sired by tonellies rising sun artificiled to din city slick ace. Way would I withhold psppers and get rid of them,they dna

Hanshaw · Post by **Hanshaw** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:34 pm

These are pups and there noses are skin color thanks for all the help. Chuck I will post picks tomorrow

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:34 pm

So if they are lemon and white, No One can breed them and sell them as registerable dogs. . People think it is acceptable to breed a fault and call them rare....

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:36 pm

viewtopic.php?t=36541

Is this the breeding?

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:38 pm

Hanshaw wrote:These are pups and there noses are skin color thanks for all the help. Chuck I will post picks tomorrow

They sound like double "e" carriers. My concern was with pink noses they could be albino, which would be a risk for deaf or blind dogs. If you choose to keep them, I would suggest the dilution test because I know there are some very off color dogs associated with heavy Slick II breeding such as this. If they are not double "e," then something else may be afoot. Good luck with your decision.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:44 pm

hmmm lil miller in the woodshed

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:45 pm

Hanshaw wrote: Way would I withhold psppers and get rid of them,they dna

I'm opinionated on this subject. DNA only shows sire and dam a correct. There is more than likely EP in the ancestry. Maybe a Ep used as stud instead of a GSP.

Hanshaw · Post by **Hanshaw** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:46 pm

I will have pedigree finished tomorrow. Thanks brad. Chuck

Hanshaw · Post by **Hanshaw** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:48 pm

I agree that the DNA only shows sire and dam, I have the same question.chuck

Hanshaw · Post by **Hanshaw** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:54 pm

Exactly bird dog this pic of your pointer is what the lemon looks like with a cut tail. The orange is definitely orange. Thanks for all the help guys. Chuck

Hanshaw · Post by **Hanshaw** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:58 pm

Ultra carry yes this is the breeding.chuck

Hanshaw · Post by **Hanshaw** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:04 pm

I have checked with akc and they are registerable and breddible I can also campaign them I just can't show them in the show ring ..correct me if I'm wrong.thanks again . Still my question remains

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:16 pm

Hanshaw wrote:I have checked with akc and they are registerable and breddible I can also campaign them I just can't show them in the show ring ..correct me if I'm wrong.thanks again . Still my question remains

The only color codes for German shorthairs are for black and liver. Orange dogs have black noses, lemons have pinkish brown. Some lemons are darker orange than some oranges. You can, indeed, do everything with these pups except put them in the Conformation ring. As far as their FDSB registration, you can probably put lemon on those papers if you choose.

http://www.akc.org/registration/colormarkings.cfm

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:19 pm

Hanshaw wrote:I have checked with akc and they are registerable and breddible I can also campaign them I just can't show them in the show ring ..correct me if I'm wrong.thanks again . Still my question remains

You are right, all of the above is true. You asked for opinions and yuo're getting them. I get the feeling you are a inexprianced breeder. My question to you. Do you want pass on very undesirable traits?

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:24 pm

Hanshaw wrote:I have checked with akc and they are registerable and breddible I can also campaign them I just can't show them in the show ring ..correct me if I'm wrong.thanks again . Still my question remains

There are ethics involved in a breeding program that should follow the breed standard. Lemon and white shorthairs are a fault and it is exploiting a recessive trait that is not ment to be dominant. There are ethics involved and we all know some people just would like to act like they are perfect, special dogs that may be worth breeding in the future, but as far as the breed goes will you be doing more damage than good? You could do three things but I'm guessing your a man and will make your own decisions.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:43 pm

ultracarry wrote:
Hanshaw wrote:I have checked with akc and they are registerable and breddible I can also campaign them I just can't show them in the show ring ..correct me if I'm wrong.thanks again . Still my question remains
There are ethics involved in a breeding program that should follow the breed standard. Lemon and white shorthairs are a fault and it is exploiting a recessive trait that is not ment to be dominant. There are ethics involved and we all know some people just would like to act like they are perfect, special dogs that may be worth breeding in the future, but as far as the breed goes will you be doing more damage than good? You could do three things but I'm guessing your a man and will make your own decisions.

So, your Kimber dog is "e" clear?

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:50 pm

Doesn't matter if she is or is not. She won't be bred to a carrier anyway..... And if there were lemon and white pups you would also never know.... so it really wouldn't matter x2...

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:25 am

ultracarry wrote:Doesn't matter if she is or is not. She won't be bred to a carrier anyway..... And if there were lemon and white pups you would also never know.... so it really wouldn't matter x2...

But it would be okay for her to pass it on in carrier pups without you revealing it? I have the possibility, too, from the same source, although I've not tested mine at this point. I kind of suspect the male is a carrier because of his eyes.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:43 am

There are a lot.of dogs with it and I'm sure the owner of a lot of these dogs with OT won't effect them breeding, just ensure the male.or female is not a carrier. If the owner is responsible and wants to make sure they can breed to what ever dog they want, sure get it tested. If they want to limit who they breed to then that's fine too. Just don't breed carrier to carrier.

Nebraska · Post by **Nebraska** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:29 am

DonF wrote:I'm with find them homes and with hold the papers.

That's really the best option in my book but to each his own.....

Hanshaw · Post by **Hanshaw** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:13 am

Sorry for my lack of intelligence what is out .chuck

sckwest1 · Post by **sckwest1** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:53 am

I would look at is as a great sign maybe they're carrying a lot of pointer blood in them. What happened to worrying about the main thing of breeding good to good or best to best? I say you keep them, register them, and let any possible buyer know in advance of what you all are talking about. I am a pointer man so I am not up to the standard on this topic, but I believe as long as you notify the future buyers in advance all ethical issues are taken care of. Best of luck, SCK

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:06 am

Hanshaw wrote:Sorry for my lack of intelligence what is out .chuck

I know this is a huge disappointment, considering the trouble and expense to produce this litter. If it were me, I would test them for dilute color and keep them unless I was absolutely sure they would not be bred.

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:15 am

sckwest1 wrote:I would look at is as a great sign maybe they're carrying a lot of pointer blood in them. What happened to worrying about the main thing of breeding good to good or best to best? I say you keep them, register them, and let any possible buyer know in advance of what you all are talking about. I am a pointer man so I am not up to the standard on this topic, but I believe as long as you notify the future buyers in advance all ethical issues are taken care of. Best of luck, SCK

Your joking , right!!!!

Middlecreek · Post by **Middlecreek** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:06 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:
Hanshaw wrote:These are pups and there noses are skin color thanks for all the help. Chuck I will post picks tomorrow
They sound like double "e" carriers. My concern was with pink noses they could be albino, which would be a risk for deaf or blind dogs. If you choose to keep them, I would suggest the dilution test because I know there are some very off color dogs associated with heavy Slick II breeding such as this. If they are not double "e," then something else may be afoot. Good luck with your decision.

Let's not point fingers... I bred Ace semen to a lot tighter bred Slick female and got liver/white and liver/roan pups...

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:17 pm

Middlecreek wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:
Hanshaw wrote:These are pups and there noses are skin color thanks for all the help. Chuck I will post picks tomorrow
They sound like double "e" carriers. My concern was with pink noses they could be albino, which would be a risk for deaf or blind dogs. If you choose to keep them, I would suggest the dilution test because I know there are some very off color dogs associated with heavy Slick II breeding such as this. If they are not double "e," then something else may be afoot. Good luck with your decision.
Let's not point fingers... I bred Ace semen to a lot tighter bred Slick female and got liver/white and liver/roan pups...

No pointing to it. I've seen three and can give you names privately, if you like, on two. It's there, just like it is in another bloodline which, I might add, I'm stuck with. I don't think it's a major deal, but it is unfair if the breeder wasn't aware of the possibility. It may be something wholly different than "e" genetics, but it is significant.

sckwest1 · Post by **sckwest1** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:53 pm

what do you mean by the double e? not trying to be funny but is that english pointer on top and bottom?

TRoberts · Post by **TRoberts** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:58 pm

This is a very interesting thread....Please forgive my ingorance..... As a novice with GSP's and really don't know anything about the breed other than I really like them, can you test the dogs to see if they are not pure GSP? If not how do you what you are buying???

Brooks Carmichael · Post by **Brooks Carmichael** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:09 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:
ultracarry wrote:Doesn't matter if she is or is not. She won't be bred to a carrier anyway..... And if there were lemon and white pups you would also never know.... so it really wouldn't matter x2...
But it would be okay for her to pass it on in carrier pups without you revealing it? I have the possibility, too, from the same source, although I've not tested mine at this point. I kind of suspect the male is a carrier because of his eyes.

I agree with middlecreek let us not point fingers as it was the male that created the problem. Eyes have nothing to do with it. I have tightly bred Slick breeding with the same sire but different dam and I got liver head with patches and ticking. The slick lines are some of the best bird dogs out there today. That sire produced two NFC and is the grand-sire of another NFC all with liver heads, white bodies with liver ticking and no sign of lemon/ orange color in the coats.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:11 pm

sckwest1 wrote:what do you mean by the double e? not trying to be funny but is that english pointer on top and bottom?

Yes, that is the gene for lemon and it is recessive, requiring it to come from both parents to express. However, there could be some other unknown mutation in there, also. The dog that is indicated as a source, from the pedigree, is Heidi's Mighty City Slicker. But, as mentioned, there are LOT of his descendents that are normally colored.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:18 pm

Brooks Carmichael wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:
ultracarry wrote:Doesn't matter if she is or is not. She won't be bred to a carrier anyway..... And if there were lemon and white pups you would also never know.... so it really wouldn't matter x2...
But it would be okay for her to pass it on in carrier pups without you revealing it? I have the possibility, too, from the same source, although I've not tested mine at this point. I kind of suspect the male is a carrier because of his eyes.

I agree with middlecreek let us not point fingers as it was the male that created the problem. Eyes have nothing to do with it. I have tightly bred Slick breeding with the same sire but different dam and I got liver head with patches and ticking. The slick lines are some of the best bird dogs out there today. That sire produced two NFC and is the grand-sire of another NFC all with liver heads, white bodies with liver ticking and no sign of lemon/ orange color in the coats.

You will notice that I have mentioned several times that there could be something entirely different and unknown going on. Random mutations, like the MD line of GSPs that are not related to the Golden retrievers with the same mutation do occur.

bb560m · Post by **bb560m** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:20 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:Yes, that is the gene for lemon and it is recessive, requiring it to come from both parents to express. However, there could be some other unknown mutation in there, also. The dog that is indicated as a source, from the pedigree, is Heidi's Mighty City Slicker. But, as mentioned, there are LOT of his descendents that are normally colored.

But that does mean Slick lines definitely have some pointer thrown in then?

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:28 pm

TRoberts wrote:This is a very interesting thread....Please forgive my ingorance..... As a novice with GSP's and really don't know anything about the breed other than I really like them, can you test the dogs to see if they are not pure GSP? If not how do you what you are buying???

You can test for the "e".
http://www.vetgen.com/canine-coat-color.html

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:31 pm

bb560m wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:Yes, that is the gene for lemon and it is recessive, requiring it to come from both parents to express. However, there could be some other unknown mutation in there, also. The dog that is indicated as a source, from the pedigree, is Heidi's Mighty City Slicker. But, as mentioned, there are LOT of his descendents that are normally colored.
But that does mean Slick lines definitely have some pointer thrown in then?

Not necessarily and the expression could be from something totally separate from simple color. It could be related to albinism ot could even be an environmental effect on a dominant gene.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:38 pm

This always gets funny, yes it could be a mutation, but it's more likely that there is pointer in the woodpile. is anyone really surprised by that?

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:58 pm

ACooper wrote:This always gets funny, yes it could be a mutation, but it's more likely that there is pointer in the woodpile. is anyone really surprised by that?

Look at Joe Shadow, look at Strut, look at any of the prominent dogs in competitive lines. Big whoop. This was high profile nick and the fact is people are more willing to gossip than to admit something may be WRONG. The fact that it's multiple pups in an AI litter just makes me wonder about exposure damage to genetic material in the AI sample. I would test one pup for dilute color to establish what the situation is.

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:01 pm

ACooper wrote:This always gets funny, yes it could be a mutation, but it's more likely that there is pointer in the woodpile. is anyone really surprised by that?

+1

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:18 pm

Cajun Casey wrote: I agree with middlecreek let us not point fingers as it was the male that created the problem. Eyes have nothing to do with it. I have tightly bred Slick breeding with the same sire but different dam and I got liver head with patches and ticking. The slick lines are some of the best bird dogs out there today. That sire produced two NFC and is the grand-sire of another NFC all with liver heads, white bodies with liver ticking and no sign of lemon/ orange color in the coats.

You will notice that I have mentioned several times that there could be something entirely different and unknown going on. Random mutations, like the MD line of GSPs that are not related to the Golden retrievers with the same mutation do occur.[/quote]

Mutations and E factor do not appear in a whole litter but just as individuals.

Ezzy

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:19 pm

Mutations and E factor do not appear in a whole litter but just as individuals.

Ezzy

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:54 pm

gotpointers wrote:ACooper wrote:This always gets funny, yes it could be a mutation, but it's more likely that there is pointer in the woodpile. is anyone really surprised by that?+1

+2

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:04 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:
ACooper wrote:This always gets funny, yes it could be a mutation, but it's more likely that there is pointer in the woodpile. is anyone really surprised by that?
Look at Joe Shadow, look at Strut, look at any of the prominent dogs in competitive lines. Big whoop. This was high profile nick and the fact is people are more willing to gossip than to admit something may be WRONG. The fact that it's multiple pups in an AI litter just makes me wonder about exposure damage to genetic material in the AI sample. I would test one pup for dilute color to establish what the situation is.

I trust and believe Casey a lot. Anyone else not so much. If she has a hunch about something I would check into it before dispelling judgements.

But in other cases there's plenty of pointers with clipped tails and pointers being bred into other breeds.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:12 pm

gotpointers wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:
ACooper wrote:This always gets funny, yes it could be a mutation, but it's more likely that there is pointer in the woodpile. is anyone really surprised by that?
Look at Joe Shadow, look at Strut, look at any of the prominent dogs in competitive lines. Big whoop. This was high profile nick and the fact is people are more willing to gossip than to admit something may be WRONG. The fact that it's multiple pups in an AI litter just makes me wonder about exposure damage to genetic material in the AI sample. I would test one pup for dilute color to establish what the situation is.

I trust and believe Casey a lot. Anyone else not so much. If she has a hunch about something I would check into it before dispelling judgements.

But in other cases there's plenty of pointers with clipped tails and pointers being bred into other breeds.

Thanks. Other offbeat colored dogs I've been aware of were one, maybe two in a litter. For the whole, even being small, litter to be weird, is, well, weird. If these pups aren't "ee," then we may have something new and it may have to do with how that AI sample was handled.

Razor · Post by **Razor** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:54 pm

Please post pictures of the pups.

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:27 pm

Is there at all a chance that the seman may have been switched? A mistake at the vets? If that is the case then DNA could help. It could show that maybe the wrong seman was used?????

I to would like to see pictures.