Gun Dog Forum

ezzy333 wrote:Tell that to the long haired pointer pups plus several other things I have heard about.

Ezzy

Not a problem to most pointer people....setter, gsp, walker hound....whatever it takes. I find nothing sacred about dog breeding except striving to make better, healthier dogs.

JMHO......

misrepresentations when big money is spent and there are expectations can be another story....I agree.

That's the problem though...why do we need a GSP to run like a pointer, if that's the case buy a pointer. I believe that the shorthair was bred the way it was and refinements were made back in the day, but to make them now I don't believe is right. I'm not saying Chuck tried making refinements, that's not the case. Ace semen was used, we all know what the pedigree says. It's common sense when you want to make a breeding or puppy purchase and anyone knowingly buying a pup from a line knows what their going for, well that's their choice. I'm not trying to stir the pot, I have a bitch with slicker II in her 3rd generation...if I ever breed her it will be towards a different line for outcrosses and back in if I choose to go that way. Just my 2 cents for what it's worth.

This particular breeding aside, many lines have problems. Rusty and LD, to name one. And that was so hushed up that there are people who still have no clue about the disease. What about other lines known to carry "e?" What about Havoc? Temperament flaws? Nice to hang on the fence and draw your own playbook, but we have some issues in the breed, maybe something we don't even know about, and we have to use the tools available for the sake of our dogs.

I keep hearing about pointer in the Gsp, what about the gsp that waas put in the pointer, where are these dogs, you can't have it one way and not the other.

Wow! Some one else out there understands it take 2 breeds.I think some seem to think that the pups only get Reg as GSPS but HA! HA! think again.

Meller wrote:I keep hearing about pointer in the Gsp, what about the gsp that waas put in the pointer, where are these dogs, you can't have it one way and not the other.

Their in a ditch somewhere

This should have never been posted without getting the DNA tests back on the pups and verifying who the sire is. Ace has been one of the top producers for a while now and has sired a ton of champions. You should have gotten the DNA tests back first and then posted your suspicions. There's lots of scenarios a pointer could have breed the bitch before or after the AI was done. Alot of people are going to feel pretty stupid if the pups DNA doesn't match Ace.

Highway Ends Kennel wrote:This should have never been posted without getting the DNA tests back on the pups and verifying who the sire is. Ace has been one of the top producers for a while now and has sired a ton of champions. You should have gotten the DNA tests back first and then posted your suspicions. There's lots of scenarios a pointer could have breed the bitch before or after the AI was done. Alot of people are going to feel pretty stupid if the pups DNA doesn't match Ace.

Wise words for sure!

Doug

I can assure you that there was no breeding before or after the air. The air was performed at Dr Kent law in abiliene Kansas. She was never breed again no chance, as for posting this blog prior to the DNA what's the difference. The pups will DNA the sire is sin city slick ace there is only one sire. People must think I have a pretty sloppy operation. This is not the first time ace has thrown off colered pups. If there is pointer so were I have no control of what happened in the past I would not worry about if the DNA is correct it has to be unless there was another dog imposed and it was not as close as the sire of the litter. I would be more interested in the color test. I have also been looking into the mars test.

Highway Ends Kennel wrote: Alot of people are going to feel pretty stupid if the pups DNA doesn't match Ace.

And even more are going to be pissed, embarrassed or both...... if it does!
Wake up. It's finally coming to light, what many have been whispering in the back of the gallery for some time now.

It's taken someone with enough balls, who has obviously been burned, to get it out there in black & white.......
well- in this case, orange & white.

Rob

Hanshaw wrote:I can assure you that there was no breeding before or after the air. The air was performed at Dr Kent law in abiliene Kansas. She was never breed again no chance, as for posting this blog prior to the DNA what's the difference. The pups will DNA the sire is sin city slick ace there is only one sire. People must think I have a pretty sloppy operation. This is not the first time ace has thrown off colered pups. If there is pointer so were I have no control of what happened in the past I would not worry about if the DNA is correct it has to be unless there was another dog imposed and it was not as close as the sire of the litter. I would be more interested in the color test. I have also been looking into the mars test.

I guess if you knew that ace has thrown off colored pups then what are you bitching about? You knew the risk of this happening. You got some pups you didn't want, paid a lot for the whole process and because it didn't work out in your favor you want to bring everyone else down with you. Grow up, face the facts(everybody), and move on. Whining and complaing about this does nothing for the dogs or the breed.

If I understand this all correctly, the "e" allele is recessive. Therefore, the likelihood of two phenotypically normal dogs (carriers) producing an "ee" pup isn't very good. A 25% chance that any given pup is double recessive. Now it's not impossible that it could happen, but a litter where all 3 pups came out double recessive would be pretty unlikely - 1/64 to be exact. Someone mentioned more than one gene contributing to coat color - if that's the case then I could be off. But from my understanding, it seems far more plausible that there's something else going on.

Highway Ends Kennel wrote:This should have never been posted without getting the DNA tests back on the pups and verifying who the sire is. Ace has been one of the top producers for a while now and has sired a ton of champions. You should have gotten the DNA tests back first and then posted your suspicions. There's lots of scenarios a pointer could have breed the bitch before or after the AI was done. Alot of people are going to feel pretty stupid if the pups DNA doesn't match Ace.

How are you going to feel if the DNA matches?

I've raised two GSP x pointer rescue litters and seen quite a few pointers out of lemon x liver breedings. Those puppies don't fit the pattern.

The owner wasn't aware of the dilution gene test and was sure of the breeding.

Personally, I think there may be something else at play, although "ee" would be a simple, if undesirable, answer. If the latter is the case, then the dam would have to derive the allele from her pedigree, which is one half identical to the sire.

ACooper wrote:

Highway Ends Kennel wrote:This should have never been posted without getting the DNA tests back on the pups and verifying who the sire is. Ace has been one of the top producers for a while now and has sired a ton of champions. You should have gotten the DNA tests back first and then posted your suspicions. There's lots of scenarios a pointer could have breed the bitch before or after the AI was done. Alot of people are going to feel pretty stupid if the pups DNA doesn't match Ace.

How are you going to feel if the DNA matches?

You got a horse in this race?

ElhewPointer wrote:

Hanshaw wrote:I can assure you that there was no breeding before or after the air. The air was performed at Dr Kent law in abiliene Kansas. She was never breed again no chance, as for posting this blog prior to the DNA what's the difference. The pups will DNA the sire is sin city slick ace there is only one sire. People must think I have a pretty sloppy operation. This is not the first time ace has thrown off colered pups. If there is pointer so were I have no control of what happened in the past I would not worry about if the DNA is correct it has to be unless there was another dog imposed and it was not as close as the sire of the litter. I would be more interested in the color test. I have also been looking into the mars test.

I guess if you knew that ace has thrown off colored pups then what are you bitching about? You knew the risk of this happening. You got some pups you didn't want, paid a lot for the whole process and because it didn't work out in your favor you want to bring everyone else down with you. Grow up, face the facts(everybody), and move on. Whining and complaing about this does nothing for the dogs or the breed.

Maybe $2,700 comes easier to you than him, Maybe another dogs semen was used , there can be a number of screw ups, give the guy a break, its his money and we all entertain the idea of free speech.You would be pissed to

I don't believe you can get an accurate reading from a MARS test. How can they tell me my GSP is a purebred if they never tested the 1st GSP ever?? What They would have a test come back where some GSP's have more pointer than others because the pointer was introduced to make the breed and after the breed has been around. We all know this. I think 75 bucks for a test to tell me my GSP has pointer (some or more than most) isn't going to tell me when and who introduced it. JMO.

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:

ACooper wrote:

Highway Ends Kennel wrote:This should have never been posted without getting the DNA tests back on the pups and verifying who the sire is. Ace has been one of the top producers for a while now and has sired a ton of champions. You should have gotten the DNA tests back first and then posted your suspicions. There's lots of scenarios a pointer could have breed the bitch before or after the AI was done. Alot of people are going to feel pretty stupid if the pups DNA doesn't match Ace.

How are you going to feel if the DNA matches?

You got a horse in this race?

We all do. If it were me, I be burning up the lines to UC Davis while waiting for the two results.

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:

ACooper wrote:

Highway Ends Kennel wrote:This should have never been posted without getting the DNA tests back on the pups and verifying who the sire is. Ace has been one of the top producers for a while now and has sired a ton of champions. You should have gotten the DNA tests back first and then posted your suspicions. There's lots of scenarios a pointer could have breed the bitch before or after the AI was done. Alot of people are going to feel pretty stupid if the pups DNA doesn't match Ace.

How are you going to feel if the DNA matches?

You got a horse in this race?

I own shorthairs, so yes in my opinion I do.

I cannot tell you how much I wish this didn't happen, not only to Hanshaw but for the breed in general. But I also believe that these things should be brought to light, that way people can make an informed decision. I am not saying the dogs shouldn't be registered or that in this case the stud in question hasn't produced a bunch of good dogs, it's the non-disclosure that really wears me slick.

How do you figure? Most on this thread don't have any Blue Max, much less Ace in their dog's pedigree's.

Kinda funny how everybody want's to beat Gulledge's, then they base their breeding program on Blue Max dogs and this happens and they bitch? Gimme a break!! Now there all bad dogs? Ha Ha , that's funny.

Blue Max dogs are ok when they bring $2000 for a hunting dog pup as Chuck told me when he tried to sell me one of these before they were bred. If you had doubts about color before you bred this, you shouldn't have let those dollar signs influence your decisions.

Doug

I may have missed a post or two in this thread, but who blamed the Gulledges?

Rick are firing words my direction yes I new the odds when I made the decision to make this breeding. As for trying to sell you a pup your right I am not bitching about the money I'm just stating the facts. And for all I paid 2200.

ACooper wrote: I cannot tell you how much I wish this didn't happen, not only to Hanshaw but for the breed in general. But I also believe that these things should be brought to light, that way people can make an informed decision. I am not saying the dogs shouldn't be registered or that in this case the stud in question hasn't produced a bunch of good dogs, it's the non-disclosure that really wears me slick.

+1

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:How do you figure? Most on this thread don't have any Blue Max, much less Ace in their dog's pedigree's.

Kinda funny how everybody want's to beat Gulledge's, then they base their breeding program on Blue Max dogs and this happens and they bitch? Gimme a break!! Now there all bad dogs? Ha Ha , that's funny.

Blue Max dogs are ok when they bring $2000 for a hunting dog pup as Chuck told me when he tried to sell me one of these before they were bred. If you had doubts about color before you bred this, you shouldn't have let those dollar signs influence your decisions.

Doug

Well, as Andy said, it's about the breed. This could be caused from chemical or radiation exposure to a dog or a collection or some heretofore unknown mutation or combination of factors.

I don't have these bloodlines, but I do have Rexx, Luke and QRSR and we all know that debacle. How many years now without a clear picture, just fingers pointed at one single dog?

ElhewPointer wrote:

Hanshaw wrote:I can assure you that there was no breeding before or after the air. The air was performed at Dr Kent law in abiliene Kansas. She was never breed again no chance, as for posting this blog prior to the DNA what's the difference. The pups will DNA the sire is sin city slick ace there is only one sire. People must think I have a pretty sloppy operation. This is not the first time ace has thrown off colered pups. If there is pointer so were I have no control of what happened in the past I would not worry about if the DNA is correct it has to be unless there was another dog imposed and it was not as close as the sire of the litter. I would be more interested in the color test. I have also been looking into the mars test.

I guess if you knew that ace has thrown off colored pups then what are you bitching about? You knew the risk of this happening. You got some pups you didn't want, paid a lot for the whole process and because it didn't work out in your favor you want to bring everyone else down with you. Grow up, face the facts(everybody), and move on. Whining and complaing about this does nothing for the dogs or the breed.

I haven't heard a single whine or complaint, but rather a straight forward conversation of what the problem is and questions about whay to do with the pups and their mother. I sure see nothing wrong with stating the truth as long as it stays that way and doesn't develop into a witch hunt.

Ezzy

Hanshaw wrote:Monday I will order the e tests and for the DNA it is in the works waiting. I will spend as much money that it takes. Its a loss but I'm not going to sweep it under the rug I would like to find out what the story is. And we all wonder how we are out ran by blue dawn kennels. I talked to kieth and he said I was barking up the wrong tree.

Here 'ya go Andy.

Doug

Cajun Casey wrote: Well, as Andy said, it's about the breed. This could be caused from chemical or radiation exposure to a dog or a collection or some heretofore unknown mutation or combination of factors.

I don't have these bloodlines, but I do have Rexx, Luke and QRSR and we all know that debacle. How many years now without a clear picture, just fingers pointed at one single dog?

I have no idea where you get all of the stuff you are posting but regardless this could be caused by the water the dog drinks I suppose but we all know these choices are so remote that they really have no bearing.

Ezzy

ezzy333 wrote:

Cajun Casey wrote: Well, as Andy said, it's about the breed. This could be caused from chemical or radiation exposure to a dog or a collection or some heretofore unknown mutation or combination of factors.

I don't have these bloodlines, but I do have Rexx, Luke and QRSR and we all know that debacle. How many years now without a clear picture, just fingers pointed at one single dog?

I have no idea where you get all of the stuff you are posting but regardless this could be caused by the water the dog drinks I suppose but we all know these choices are so remote that they really have no bearing.

Ezzy

+1

Or I think the bitch was abducted by aliens(lemon aliens).

ezzy333 wrote:

Cajun Casey wrote: Well, as Andy said, it's about the breed. This could be caused from chemical or radiation exposure to a dog or a collection or some heretofore unknown mutation or combination of factors.

I don't have these bloodlines, but I do have Rexx, Luke and QRSR and we all know that debacle. How many years now without a clear picture, just fingers pointed at one single dog?

I have no idea where you get all of the stuff you are posting but regardless this could be caused by the water the dog drinks I suppose but we all know these choices are so remote that they really have no bearing.

Ezzy

UC Davis white papers, Penn LD marker studies, MD research out of Chapel Hill, MSDS on products used in vet practice (we have to protect our employees), and a lot of searching and researching on autoimmune disorders.

Cajun Casey wrote:

ezzy333 wrote:

Cajun Casey wrote: Well, as Andy said, it's about the breed. This could be caused from chemical or radiation exposure to a dog or a collection or some heretofore unknown mutation or combination of factors.

I don't have these bloodlines, but I do have Rexx, Luke and QRSR and we all know that debacle. How many years now without a clear picture, just fingers pointed at one single dog?

I have no idea where you get all of the stuff you are posting but regardless this could be caused by the water the dog drinks I suppose but we all know these choices are so remote that they really have no bearing.

Ezzy

UC Davis white papers, Penn LD marker studies, MD research out of Chapel Hill, MSDS on products used in vet practice (we have to protect our employees), and a lot of searching and researching on autoimmune disorders.

You forgot to mention the Area 51 research project.

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:How do you figure? Most on this thread don't have any Blue Max, much less Ace in their dog's pedigree's.

Doug

Maybe not, but we compete against them. Not sure about you- but I'm the kind of fella who doesn't really appreciate it when someone has the nerve to bring a knife to a fist fight. Kind of pisses me off......... almost makes me want to go get a gun.

In this case, the "gun" is this thread........ and it's smoking.

Rob

Everyone is complaining about this but they will still continue to breed to these half pointers hoping something like this don't happen. All you have to do is look at some of these dogs and know that there's a pointer smiling somewhere. There's plenty of good clean shorthairs that will run and hunt that look like shorthairs. Those are the ones we need to be breeding to, taking shortcuts is not the answer.

GrayDawg wrote:

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:How do you figure? Most on this thread don't have any Blue Max, much less Ace in their dog's pedigree's.

Doug

Maybe not, but we compete against them. Not sure about you- but I'm the kind of fella who doesn't really appreciate it when someone has the nerve to bring a knife to a fist fight. Kind of pisses me off......... almost makes me want to go get a gun.

In this case, the "gun" is this thread........ and it's smoking.

Rob

If you think that's the only line with pointer in it you're pretty sheltered. Lotsa stuff went on before dna.

I'll say it again, the dna isn't back yet and 'yall want to crucify somebody with no evidence.

Doug

GrayDawg wrote:

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:How do you figure? Most on this thread don't have any Blue Max, much less Ace in their dog's pedigree's.

Doug

Maybe not, but we compete against them. Not sure about you- but I'm the kind of fella who doesn't really appreciate it when someone has the nerve to bring a knife to a fist fight. Kind of pisses me off......... almost makes me want to go get a gun.

In this case, the "gun" is this thread........ and it's smoking.

Rob

What if we are dealing with something other than "ee?"

A story, for your consideration. Nine and a half years ago I watched a dog die of non-Hodgkins lymphoma. I did so much research and spent so much time with him that I can spot that evilness in a second. Every year, I donate to the AKC-CHF, earmark it for lymphoma and dedicate it to Zack. This year, the report was published linking Epstein-Barr to non-Hodgkins lymphoma in dogs. The virus alters the immune system. A test is being developed and proactive treatment explored. It will cross directly to human research.

What if this color issue is a genetic disease that someone finally brought to light?

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:

Hanshaw wrote:Monday I will order the e tests and for the DNA it is in the works waiting. I will spend as much money that it takes. Its a loss but I'm not going to sweep it under the rug I would like to find out what the story is. And we all wonder how we are out ran by blue dawn kennels. I talked to kieth and he said I was barking up the wrong tree.

Here 'ya go Andy.

Doug

I missed this one, I am not sure they are where the finger should be pointed. Honestly who knows where it should be pointed. I am in no way blaming or implying any particular person crossed pointer to gsp. All I can say is it happened at some point, and if your stud has thrown off color pups it should be disclosed.

I do not currently own any Slicker blood, I did have female sired by Mert and she was out of a Magnum sired female. I would not hesitate to buy another one, the quality of dog is not the reason I personally have a problem the cross breeding.

Start here http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/pathway.html and surf around.

ACooper wrote:

Highway Ends Kennel wrote:This should have never been posted without getting the DNA tests back on the pups and verifying who the sire is. Ace has been one of the top producers for a while now and has sired a ton of champions. You should have gotten the DNA tests back first and then posted your suspicions. There's lots of scenarios a pointer could have breed the bitch before or after the AI was done. Alot of people are going to feel pretty stupid if the pups DNA doesn't match Ace.

How are you going to feel if the DNA matches?

I'll feel the same either way about Slick bred dogs. They're overall balls to the wall great birddogs!! Just like Clown, Rusty, Koonas, and some of the other winning lines that have been dragged through the mud on the forum. There's legitimate health issues that need to be addressed with the GSP's like the LD disease. Even that has taken allot of time and testing to narrow it down to certain lines.

I just don't understand why there has been so much speculation and claims made regarding this sire without at least getting the DNA results back and verifying that in fact Ace was the sire. heck maybe the straws were mislabled when they pulled them and he ended up with some Snake Foot straws. Some poor sap is wondering why his Hall Fame Snakefoot breeding looks like shorthairs I can't believe that anybody whose been around shorthairs very long was considering registering and trialing the two pups shown in the pictures as GSP's?

Between the DNA test not being finished, the possibility of a genetic issue causing the color, etc., It just seems like allot of people have already made their minds up as to where the problem is (how many of these member's were beaten by a Slick dog?). The Slick Lines are some of the most predominate lines not only in the HB circut, but in all types of competitive venues and hunting kennels around the country. I don't have a dog in this fight but I do appreciate the time and effort it takes to develop a superior line of birddogs. Allot have trainers and kennels have worked hard developing the Slick line so the average hunter like myself could enjoy a dog of this caliber. Seems like we should be doing a little more homework and waiting for the rest of the facts to come out before we start popping off about somebody's line or kennel.

This forum used to be pretty good about not letting members air their dirty laundry or personnel issues about another breeder or certain line of dogs. Hope it stays that way

Your right seeing what has come of my post I should of waited until the tests were completed.

Hanshaw wrote:Your right seeing what has come of my post I should of waited until the tests were completed.

A lot of people have shared a lot of good information because of what you began. You never know who might thank you in the end. Those of us who are dedicated to the breed, to dogs in general, need to have this kind of resource sharing and information exchange. If your experience turns out to be some kind of fluke, that's as important as if it turns out any other way.

Some people turn away from a wreck, some gawk and stare, and some dial nine eleven and start yanking open doors.

Hardly dirty laundry!

I think this guy has handled it well... Me, chit would have gott'n a bit Western by now...

So tempting to jump into this....think I'll sit back and watch the show.

Hanshaw wrote:Your right seeing what has come of my post I should of waited until the tests were completed.

Chuck,

I don't think it was so much your original post, but the way some of the more experienced members ran away with it because they have an "issue" or axe to grind with that line of dogs. I truly feel for you, that's allot of money to be out plus I'm sure you had very high expectations for these dogs.

I'm all for improving the breed and keeping the gene-pool clean. DNA testing has been able to eliminate allot of the unethical breeding that used to take place. The kennel's that breed, raise, train and campaign these dogs for a living should at least be given the benefit of the doubt though until proven otherwise. They're not doing it to get rich. Even the most sucessfull of these pros aren't what most would consider "well off". They do it because they love it and they love the breed. We should be thankful that there are still people willing to sacrifice and put in the hard work to better the breed by training, competing campaigning these dogs for a living. Because of their efforts, the average Joe like me has a better chance of owning that once in a lifetime dog.

You'll notice the "pros" rarely post on these forums. They're usually to tired at the end of the day to sit in front of a computer and argue with people about how good their dogs are. They let the dogs speak for themselves at the winners circle

Highway Ends Kennel wrote:

Hanshaw wrote:Your right seeing what has come of my post I should of waited until the tests were completed.

Chuck,

I don't think it was so much your original post, but the way some of the more experienced members ran away with it because they have an "issue" or axe to grind with that line of dogs. I truly feel for you, that's allot of money to be out plus I'm sure you had very high expectations for these dogs.

I'm all for improving the breed and keeping the gene-pool clean. DNA testing has been able to eliminate allot of the unethical breeding that used to take place. The kennel's that breed, raise, train and campaign these dogs for a living should at least be given the benefit of the doubt though until proven otherwise. They're not doing it to get rich. Even the most sucessfull of these pros aren't what most would consider "well off". They do it because they love it and they love the breed. We should be thankful that there are still people willing to sacrifice and put in the hard work to better the breed by training, competing campaigning these dogs for a living. Because of their efforts, the average Joe like me has a better chance of owning that once in a lifetime dog.

You'll notice the "pros" rarely post on these forums. They're usually to tired at the end of the day to sit in front of a computer and argue with people about how good their dogs are. They let the dogs speak for themselves at the winners circle

WELL SAID, I could not agree more.

Ricky Ticky, the breeding wasn't from Blue Maxx...What does he have to do with it? Sin City Slick Ace is the sire to Hanshaw's litter.

CHJIII wrote:So tempting to jump into this....think I'll sit back and watch the show.

I can't think of a better person to jump in.

Ahumphers91a wrote:Ricky Ticky, the breeding wasn't from Blue Maxx...What does he have to do with it? Sin City Slick Ace is the sire to Hanshaw's litter.

Adam~I'm not talking about Fire. I'm talking about the line of dogs that Linda Nickerson bred and ran. Those are Blue Max dogs. BMK for short on some dogs. This whole line is based on the Old Slick/Heidi Ho cross. With some selected outcrosses.

Doug

Yes, Yes...gotcha..Thought for a sec Fire..

Cajun Casey wrote:

CHJIII wrote:So tempting to jump into this....think I'll sit back and watch the show.

I can't think of a better person to jump in.

Are you saying when I let Ranger and Ruby up this spring that I should be ready for what I get?

CHJIII wrote:

Cajun Casey wrote:

CHJIII wrote:So tempting to jump into this....think I'll sit back and watch the show.

I can't think of a better person to jump in.

Are you saying when I let Ranger and Ruby up this spring that I should be ready for what I get?

No, I'm saying you understand modes of inheritance and mutation.

Why am I so unlucky? I've been breeding all along a lot tighter to Ace, his littermates, sons, daughters and slick lines in general and never get any of these "rare" colors???

What is the solution here? Let's be problem solvers, not problem finders. The problems find themselves without too much looking. What are you gonna do, strip 100's of national placements and countless other performance accomplishments then unregister half the dogs now competing because of something that may have happened 30 years ago. Then move to the next line of GSP's and destroy them. Let's be honest, do you really think the hardcore boys from yesteryear didn't switch things up a little just like every other breed. I've been around the old timers of a few different breeds and they most definately did what they could to improve their breed. Pointers to greyhounds, pointers to shorthairs, vislas to pointers, pointers to setters.... it goes on and on. You have to ask yourself, are the dogs of today better or worse for what we all do with them than they were 60 or 70 years ago? With DNA systems in place we can now monitor parentage and prevent it from happening. So what's the solution? Do all the tests in the world on these pups and their entire 10 generation pedigree and unless the sire is proven to be flat out wrong, nothing will ever come of it! The pups should be spayed or neutered and the breeding should not be repeated. End of story.

We have these games we play with our dogs and if you think they are good for the breed or not is entirely up to you, your opinion is your business, but we train and breed to make the best possible dogs for those games whichever it may be. You don't hear little kids say" I wanna grow up and play 40 and over flag football at the YMCA". They say "I wanna be a forty niner or raider or whatever" right? Well I want to grow up and win AF Open championships and Invitationals with a shorthair! Do I think there is pointer blood in a good number of GSP lines? Yes. Do I think Ace was a pointer? No, I've proved that for myself with my breeding program. Do I think it is ok to breed to pointers? No, it's cheating. I believe you would have to look real hard to find any breed that doesn't have skeletons in the closet somewhere in it's history. We have DNA requirements now to prevent it from happening. Someday canine DNA technology/research may come far enough along to give us ALL the answers we want, but I doubt even that would change our breed unless we wanted a total reset as most lines I'm sure would have issues, plus because of how long ago it took place it would affect most every successful line of today in some way.

Based on my experience and the fact that I've gotten liver/white and liver/roans out of my breedings that were tighter than this breeding I have my own theory, but since I'm not a finger pointer I will keep it to myself.

It sounds like chuk is going to drop a small fortune into tests and research on these pups and it will be interesting to see the results and if they actually give us any definitive answers as to exactly why this happened, but I'm not holding my breath.