Gun Dog Forum

Hanshaw wrote:You are absolutely right middle creek. I will spayed both females and never breed them they will not become registers. I am having three test ran and I am waiting for the e test and the mars test I can't find but I am still looking. I can tell you with all honesty that they won't return to the gene pool that much is certain. Thanks to all for the help full advise, I have a greater understanding now.chuck

Middlecreek wrote:I just went back and read all the posts in this thread... Not that any of it is 100% impossible, but this thread is amazingly entertaining.

1. Light liver that looks lemon
2. Switched semen
3. Radioactive semen
4. Lemon alien abductions
5. People that think its a secret most GSP's have pointer in them
6. Genetic mutations
7. 24hr cameras and people to watch the footage
8. People that are in denial about #5
9. Albino pups
10. Lots of talk about woodsheds
11. People that think DNA test results come from GOD
12. Colorblindness
13. Broken sperm
14. Lots of bad semen juggling at the vets office
15. Jerry Springer
16. Pointer midnight rapists
17. Horse racing
18. MARS (maybe where the lemon aliens are from)
19. Tests. Hopefully standardized so we all get A's
20. People that think whatever line they have there is zero possibility of pointer in it
21. Disclosure: most Gsp's have skeletons in the distant past

No offense to ANYBODY, but you gotta admit the list without the content is pretty funny and entertaining even with the content of the thread.

I read on the Internet once that the Internet is the most reliable source of accurate information known to man.

Cajun Casey wrote:

Middlecreek wrote:I just went back and read all the posts in this thread... Not that any of it is 100% impossible, but this thread is amazingly entertaining.

1. Light liver that looks lemon
2. Switched semen
3. Radioactive semen
4. Lemon alien abductions.................

No offense to ANYBODY, but you gotta admit the list without the content is pretty funny and entertaining even with the content of the thread.

I read on the Internet once that the Internet is the most reliable source of accurate information known to man.

So, your explanation would be?

Middlecreek wrote:

Cajun Casey wrote:

Middlecreek wrote:I just went back and read all the posts in this thread... Not that any of it is 100% impossible, but this thread is amazingly entertaining.

1. Light liver that looks lemon
2. Switched semen
3. Radioactive semen
4. Lemon alien abductions.................

No offense to ANYBODY, but you gotta admit the list without the content is pretty funny and entertaining even with the content of the thread.

I read on the Internet once that the Internet is the most reliable source of accurate information known to man.

So, your explanation would be?

.

Don't know, and we probably never will for sure. Double ee? Fine, but where did that come from? When? And. who did it? Wrong sire mix up? That would make everything else is a moot point.

Middlecreek wrote:Why am I so unlucky? I've been breeding all along a lot tighter to Ace, his littermates, sons, daughters and slick lines in general and never get any of these "rare" colors???

What is the solution here? Let's be problem solvers, not problem finders. The problems find themselves without too much looking. What are you gonna do, strip 100's of national placements and countless other performance accomplishments then unregister half the dogs now competing because of something that may have happened 30 years ago. Then move to the next line of GSP's and destroy them. Let's be honest, do you really think the hardcore boys from yesteryear didn't switch things up a little just like every other breed. I've been around the old timers of a few different breeds and they most definately did what they could to improve their breed. Pointers to greyhounds, pointers to shorthairs, vislas to pointers, pointers to setters.... it goes on and on. You have to ask yourself, are the dogs of today better or worse for what we all do with them than they were 60 or 70 years ago? With DNA systems in place we can now monitor parentage and prevent it from happening. So what's the solution? Do all the tests in the world on these pups and their entire 10 generation pedigree and unless the sire is proven to be flat out wrong, nothing will ever come of it! The pups should be spayed or neutered and the breeding should not be repeated. End of story.

We have these games we play with our dogs and if you think they are good for the breed or not is entirely up to you, your opinion is your business, but we train and breed to make the best possible dogs for those games whichever it may be. You don't hear little kids say" I wanna grow up and play 40 and over flag football at the YMCA". They say "I wanna be a forty niner or raider or whatever" right? Well I want to grow up and win AF Open championships and Invitationals with a shorthair! Do I think there is pointer blood in a good number of GSP lines? Yes. Do I think Ace was a pointer? No, I've proved that for myself with my breeding program. Do I think it is ok to breed to pointers? No, it's cheating. I believe you would have to look real hard to find any breed that doesn't have skeletons in the closet somewhere in it's history. We have DNA requirements now to prevent it from happening. Someday canine DNA technology/research may come far enough along to give us ALL the answers we want, but I doubt even that would change our breed unless we wanted a total reset as most lines I'm sure would have issues, plus because of how long ago it took place it would affect most every successful line of today in some way.

Based on my experience and the fact that I've gotten liver/white and liver/roans out of my breedings that were tighter than this breeding I have my own theory, but since I'm not a finger pointer I will keep it to myself.

It sounds like chuk is going to drop a small fortune into tests and research on these pups and it will be interesting to see the results and if they actually give us any definitive answers as to exactly why this happened, but I'm not holding my breath.

Middlecreek wrote:All the research is great and I'm all for it, but even if you could find out it was x breeding that produced y puppy that had z anomoly xx many years ago, what do you do? Spay and neuter 90% of all GSP's? Require thousands of dollars of testing before being allowed to breed? Like I said, I'm all for researching this, but what is the solution going to be when we have the answers? Will we have enough information to make any solid conclusions? What if includes all clown, rusty, slick, sonny, hustler, etc etc lines? I'm pretty confident we will never get that kind of information, but if we do what then? When it includes such a vast majority of the population then it just is the population. I realize for some this is like trying to tell the pope there is no God, but it is what it is and when things like this show up take the pups out of the breding population like he is doing and move on. Have not had to deal with this personally and hope I never do, but I think he is doing what should be done by spaying and doing the research he can. Unless it's a simple matter of wrong stud, which we will know soon enough, there won't be enough information to do anything about it and will calm back down to quiet rumors in the gallery just like alleged contraversies in all the other lines that are successful from show to field trials and everything in between.

Middlecreek wrote:All the research is great and I'm all for it, but even if you could find out it was x breeding that produced y puppy that had z anomoly xx many years ago, what do you do? Spay and neuter 90% of all GSP's? Require thousands of dollars of testing before being allowed to breed? Like I said, I'm all for researching this, but what is the solution going to be when we have the answers? Will we have enough information to make any solid conclusions? What if includes all clown, rusty, slick, sonny, hustler, etc etc lines? I'm pretty confident we will never get that kind of information, but if we do what then? When it includes such a vast majority of the population then it just is the population. I realize for some this is like trying to tell the pope there is no God, but it is what it is and when things like this show up take the pups out of the breding population like he is doing and move on. Have not had to deal with this personally and hope I never do, but I think he is doing what should be done by spaying and doing the research he can. Unless it's a simple matter of wrong stud, which we will know soon enough, there won't be enough information to do anything about it and will calm back down to quiet rumors in the gallery just like alleged contraversies in all the other lines that are successful from show to field trials and everything in between.

Middlecreek wrote:I just went back and read all the posts in this thread... Not that any of it is 100% impossible, but this thread is amazingly entertaining.

1. Light liver that looks lemon
2. Switched semen
3. Radioactive semen
4. Lemon alien abductions
5. People that think its a secret most GSP's have pointer in them
6. Genetic mutations
7. 24hr cameras and people to watch the footage
8. People that are in denial about #5
9. Albino pups
10. Lots of talk about woodsheds
11. People that think DNA test results come from GOD
12. Colorblindness
13. Broken sperm
14. Lots of bad semen juggling at the vets office
15. Jerry Springer
16. Pointer midnight rapists
17. Horse racing
18. MARS (maybe where the lemon aliens are from)
19. Tests. Hopefully standardized so we all get A's
20. People that think whatever line they have there is zero possibility of pointer in it
21. Disclosure: most Gsp's have skeletons in the distant past

No offense to ANYBODY, but you gotta admit the list without the content is pretty funny and entertaining even with the content of the thread.

I read on the Internet once that the Internet is the most reliable source of accurate information known to man.

Cajun Casey wrote:

Middlecreek wrote:All the research is great and I'm all for it, but even if you could find out it was x breeding that produced y puppy that had z anomoly xx many years ago, what do you do? Spay and neuter 90% of all GSP's? Require thousands of dollars of testing before being allowed to breed? Like I said, I'm all for researching this, but what is the solution going to be when we have the answers? Will we have enough information to make any solid conclusions? What if includes all clown, rusty, slick, sonny, hustler, etc etc lines? I'm pretty confident we will never get that kind of information, but if we do what then? When it includes such a vast majority of the population then it just is the population. I realize for some this is like trying to tell the pope there is no God, but it is what it is and when things like this show up take the pups out of the breding population like he is doing and move on. Have not had to deal with this personally and hope I never do, but I think he is doing what should be done by spaying and doing the research he can. Unless it's a simple matter of wrong stud, which we will know soon enough, there won't be enough information to do anything about it and will calm back down to quiet rumors in the gallery just like alleged contraversies in all the other lines that are successful from show to field trials and everything in between.

The test for "e" is relatively inexpensive and easy.

Another weird idea - comments have been made about how odd it is to produce two pups like this in a single breeding given that it's uncommon, but they could be identical twins.

ezzy333 wrote:

Cajun Casey wrote:

Middlecreek wrote:All the research is great and I'm all for it, but even if you could find out it was x breeding that produced y puppy that had z anomoly xx many years ago, what do you do? Spay and neuter 90% of all GSP's? Require thousands of dollars of testing before being allowed to breed? Like I said, I'm all for researching this, but what is the solution going to be when we have the answers? Will we have enough information to make any solid conclusions? What if includes all clown, rusty, slick, sonny, hustler, etc etc lines? I'm pretty confident we will never get that kind of information, but if we do what then? When it includes such a vast majority of the population then it just is the population. I realize for some this is like trying to tell the pope there is no God, but it is what it is and when things like this show up take the pups out of the breding population like he is doing and move on. Have not had to deal with this personally and hope I never do, but I think he is doing what should be done by spaying and doing the research he can. Unless it's a simple matter of wrong stud, which we will know soon enough, there won't be enough information to do anything about it and will calm back down to quiet rumors in the gallery just like alleged contraversies in all the other lines that are successful from show to field trials and everything in between.

The test for "e" is relatively inexpensive and easy.

Another weird idea - comments have been made about how odd it is to produce two pups like this in a single breeding given that it's uncommon, but they could be identical twins.

Come on!!!!Identical twins with differewnt spots and different colors. Getting desperate it seems.

Ezzy

ezzy333 wrote:

Cajun Casey wrote:

Middlecreek wrote:All the research is great and I'm all for it, but even if you could find out it was x breeding that produced y puppy that had z anomoly xx many years ago, what do you do? Spay and neuter 90% of all GSP's? Require thousands of dollars of testing before being allowed to breed? Like I said, I'm all for researching this, but what is the solution going to be when we have the answers? Will we have enough information to make any solid conclusions? What if includes all clown, rusty, slick, sonny, hustler, etc etc lines? I'm pretty confident we will never get that kind of information, but if we do what then? When it includes such a vast majority of the population then it just is the population. I realize for some this is like trying to tell the pope there is no God, but it is what it is and when things like this show up take the pups out of the breding population like he is doing and move on. Have not had to deal with this personally and hope I never do, but I think he is doing what should be done by spaying and doing the research he can. Unless it's a simple matter of wrong stud, which we will know soon enough, there won't be enough information to do anything about it and will calm back down to quiet rumors in the gallery just like alleged contraversies in all the other lines that are successful from show to field trials and everything in between.

The test for "e" is relatively inexpensive and easy.

Another weird idea - comments have been made about how odd it is to produce two pups like this in a single breeding given that it's uncommon, but they could be identical twins.

Come on!!!!Identical twins with differewnt spots and different colors. Getting desperate it seems.

Ezzy

ezzy333 wrote:Casey,

Congrats!!!!! You have now made 55 posts on this one topic. Thats about half of all the posts and we still don't know anything.

Ezzy

LBH wrote:Hold up, you're tellin' me that my shorthair MIGHT have some pointer in him? Tell me it isn't so!

ElhewPointer wrote:

Middlecreek wrote:Why am I so unlucky? I've been breeding all along a lot tighter to Ace, his littermates, sons, daughters and slick lines in general and never get any of these "rare" colors???

What is the solution here? Let's be problem solvers, not problem finders. The problems find themselves without too much looking. What are you gonna do, strip 100's of national placements and countless other performance accomplishments then unregister half the dogs now competing because of something that may have happened 30 years ago. Then move to the next line of GSP's and destroy them. Let's be honest, do you really think the hardcore boys from yesteryear didn't switch things up a little just like every other breed. I've been around the old timers of a few different breeds and they most definately did what they could to improve their breed. Pointers to greyhounds, pointers to shorthairs, vislas to pointers, pointers to setters.... it goes on and on. You have to ask yourself, are the dogs of today better or worse for what we all do with them than they were 60 or 70 years ago? With DNA systems in place we can now monitor parentage and prevent it from happening. So what's the solution? Do all the tests in the world on these pups and their entire 10 generation pedigree and unless the sire is proven to be flat out wrong, nothing will ever come of it! The pups should be spayed or neutered and the breeding should not be repeated. End of story.

We have these games we play with our dogs and if you think they are good for the breed or not is entirely up to you, your opinion is your business, but we train and breed to make the best possible dogs for those games whichever it may be. You don't hear little kids say" I wanna grow up and play 40 and over flag football at the YMCA". They say "I wanna be a forty niner or raider or whatever" right? Well I want to grow up and win AF Open championships and Invitationals with a shorthair! Do I think there is pointer blood in a good number of GSP lines? Yes. Do I think Ace was a pointer? No, I've proved that for myself with my breeding program. Do I think it is ok to breed to pointers? No, it's cheating. I believe you would have to look real hard to find any breed that doesn't have skeletons in the closet somewhere in it's history. We have DNA requirements now to prevent it from happening. Someday canine DNA technology/research may come far enough along to give us ALL the answers we want, but I doubt even that would change our breed unless we wanted a total reset as most lines I'm sure would have issues, plus because of how long ago it took place it would affect most every successful line of today in some way.

Based on my experience and the fact that I've gotten liver/white and liver/roans out of my breedings that were tighter than this breeding I have my own theory, but since I'm not a finger pointer I will keep it to myself.

It sounds like chuk is going to drop a small fortune into tests and research on these pups and it will be interesting to see the results and if they actually give us any definitive answers as to exactly why this happened, but I'm not holding my breath.

+1

Well said.

LBH wrote:His tail is docked...those Germans just like them a little longer!

TAK wrote:

LBH wrote:His tail is docked...those Germans just like them a little longer!

Guess it's like breeding an UN-PROVEN dog or something like that...Aahhh...

Brooks Carmichael wrote:on and on it goes

ezzy333 wrote:Casey,

Congrats!!!!! You have now made 55 posts on this one topic. Thats about half of all the posts and we still don't know anything.

Ezzy

Cajun Casey wrote:

Brooks Carmichael wrote:on and on it goes

Seriously? It scares me. Kind of like living under high voltage power lines and finding out your neighbor's kid has cancer, you know? Folks, something ain't right here and I want to know why. For half a dozen years or so there's been a wink and nod approach to lupoid dermatosis. Now, you've got a chance to isolate and explain a breed genetic, maybe health, issue. Let's see what the preliminary DNA results are. Then, hopefully, people with the bloodline will step up and provide comparative samples if it turns out to be a genetic disease and not just an unfortunate meeting of genes.

Wyndancer wrote:

ezzy333 wrote:Casey,

Congrats!!!!! You have now made 55 posts on this one topic. Thats about half of all the posts and we still don't know anything.

Ezzy

Baloney...you learned that a cloned animal does NOT have to have the same markings as the original.

Cajun Casey wrote:

ezzy333 wrote:Casey,

Congrats!!!!! You have now made 55 posts on this one topic. Thats about half of all the posts and we still don't know anything.

Ezzy

Would you like me to mail you a copy of the E Locus chapter from Little's book so you can follow along?

ezzy333 wrote:

Cajun Casey wrote:

ezzy333 wrote:Casey,

Congrats!!!!! You have now made 55 posts on this one topic. Thats about half of all the posts and we still don't know anything.

Ezzy

Would you like me to mail you a copy of the E Locus chapter from Little's book so you can follow along?

Sure, I am sure you will have plenty of time if you just cut back a little on here. When should I expect it?

Ezzy

CHJIII wrote: Hard to say if Ezzy is just being plain mean or is having fun. At least she's thrown out a multitude of possibilities that could be elimintated one by one and narrow it down. Sounds like Mr. Hanshaw is doing the right thing by trying to nail down the real issue. Hats off to him. Most people would sweep it under the rug and get on.

fuzznut wrote:Here is my question to this problem.....
What is to be done about it?
Will the owner of the sire refund the stud fee if indeed the DNA matches up? How have they responded to this situation? Is a refund expected? Should it be expected?

A rhetorical question maybe... just wondering how any of us would respond if this happened from a stud dog we owned?
fuzz

brad27 wrote:

fuzznut wrote:Here is my question to this problem.....
What is to be done about it?
Will the owner of the sire refund the stud fee if indeed the DNA matches up? How have they responded to this situation? Is a refund expected? Should it be expected?

A rhetorical question maybe... just wondering how any of us would respond if this happened from a stud dog we owned?
fuzz

Valid question. What would you do if something like this came up with a dog you owned? It doesn't have to be a color issue. What if it was an other genetic defect.

brad27 wrote:Valid question. What would you do if something like this came up with a dog you owned? It doesn't have to be a color issue. What if it was an other genetic defect.

Middlecreek wrote:Why are we still pointing the fingers at the stud? Plenty of possibilities what's going on here, but why is it the stud that always gets blamed?

Middlecreek wrote:Why are we still pointing the fingers at the stud? Plenty of possibilities what's going on here, but why is it the stud that always gets blamed? They don't deserve all the credit when they produce greatness and they don't deserve all the blame when it turns out less than desireable! Some think there is a "smoking gun" here and others are just mistified by it, but it is all directed towards the sire. How's the saying go? The most obvious conclusion is probably the correct one or something like that... oh, and on a side note on a completely different subject not related to this at all that has nothing to do with this thread just out of curiosity for no real reason at all on a completely different train of thought could somebody post pictures of the grandsires and granddams and possibly some of their offspring?

If we're gonna bark up trees we might as well bark up all of them right?

Middlecreek wrote:Why are we still pointing the fingers at the stud? Plenty of possibilities what's going on here, but why is it the stud that always gets blamed? They don't deserve all the credit when they produce greatness and they don't deserve all the blame when it turns out less than desireable! Some think there is a "smoking gun" here and others are just mistified by it, but it is all directed towards the sire. How's the saying go? The most obvious conclusion is probably the correct one or something like that... oh, and on a side note on a completely different subject not related to this at all that has nothing to do with this thread just out of curiosity for no real reason at all on a completely different train of thought could somebody post pictures of the grandsires and granddams and possibly some of their offspring?

If we're gonna bark up trees we might as well bark up all of them right?

brad27 wrote:

Middlecreek wrote:Why are we still pointing the fingers at the stud? Plenty of possibilities what's going on here, but why is it the stud that always gets blamed? They don't deserve all the credit when they produce greatness and they don't deserve all the blame when it turns out less than desireable! Some think there is a "smoking gun" here and others are just mistified by it, but it is all directed towards the sire. How's the saying go? The most obvious conclusion is probably the correct one or something like that... oh, and on a side note on a completely different subject not related to this at all that has nothing to do with this thread just out of curiosity for no real reason at all on a completely different train of thought could somebody post pictures of the grandsires and granddams and possibly some of their offspring?

If we're gonna bark up trees we might as well bark up all of them right?

Why do you want to take that path?

Cajun Casey wrote:Males get used more than females in a given gene pool. Every case I know of where a breed was very nearly trashed was due to popular sire syndrome in breeding.

fuzznut wrote:Here is my question to this problem.....
What is to be done about it?
Will the owner of the sire refund the stud fee if indeed the DNA matches up? How have they responded to this situation? Is a refund expected? Should it be expected?

A rhetorical question maybe... just wondering how any of us would respond if this happened from a stud dog we owned?
fuzz

adogslife wrote:Doesn't the owner of the bitch deserve,at least, a reasonable expectation of type?