Gun Dog Forum

adogslife wrote:Was there full disclousure by the stud owner that there is EP in the line?
or are we still assuming the staws were exposed to radiation or mixed up during the proceedure or this being a throwback from 100+ years ago?
It takes 2 to tango, disclousure may have been helpful to the bitch owner.

Those of us who are interested in real answers are waiting until the identification and "e" gene tests are complete. If they don't provide definitive answers, then I think talking to UC Davis is in order.

This is a very interesting topic.

There have been GSP litters with cinnamon and lemon colors, were there tests perfomed on these?
What were the results?

adogslife wrote:This is a very interesting topic.

There have been GSP litters with cinnamon and lemon colors, were there tests perfomed on these?
What were the results?

None that I know of where the results were made widely available. There are pedigrees where "e" testing is advisable, just as there are pedigrees where lupoid dermatosis testing is advisable, although the latter disease appears to be more complex.

This was callys third breeding.Kent law said tHat. Here uterues was fine.

adogslife wrote:This is a very interesting topic.

There have been GSP litters with cinnamon and lemon colors, were there tests perfomed on these?
What were the results?

I know somoene who had one, swore up and down it was some recessive gene from the old days. HAd it tested, Pointer. I dont know allthe details but it wasnt the recessive gene.

Thats why you dont use lemon pointers .

jasonw99 wrote:

adogslife wrote:This is a very interesting topic.

There have been GSP litters with cinnamon and lemon colors, were there tests perfomed on these?
What were the results?

I know somoene who had one, swore up and down it was some recessive gene from the old days. HAd it tested, Pointer. I dont know allthe details but it wasnt the recessive gene.

Thats why you dont use lemon pointers .

The recessive "e" is found in pointers, not in German shorthairs. It is also found in Irish setters and other dogs who have no black/brown in their coats. :roll:

The more I look at the pictures the more I see not one Eye Ohh Da of a GSP there. The structure is just not of GSP's I am use to looking at?

heck maybe he is yanking all of your chains and threw up a picture of a couple pointer pups. Photoshopped the tails.

Razor wrote:heck maybe he is yanking all of your chains and threw up a picture of a couple pointer pups. Photoshopped the tails.

Is it April? Heck even if they was full liver I would not guess GSP? About the tails... Did they get doc'd?

Casey, you said, "The recessive "e" is found in pointers, not in German shorthairs. It is also found in Irish setters and other dogs who have no black/brown in their coats." Doesn't that give us our answer then? If the pup's have this "e" deal then your saying their pointer's, and if they don't your saying their pointer's correct?? Either way, Ace or chuck's bitch (possibly both) have more pointer than GSP correct? Just trying to wrap my head around this...

Ahumphers91a wrote:Casey, you said, "The recessive "e" is found in pointers, not in German shorthairs. It is also found in Irish setters and other dogs who have no black/brown in their coats." Doesn't that give us our answer then? If the pup's have this "e" deal then your saying their pointer's, and if they don't your saying their pointer's correct?? Either way, Ace or chuck's bitch (possibly both) have more pointer than GSP correct? Just trying to wrap my head around this...

No, if the color derives from "ee" on Ch5, each parent carries a copy of the recessive. What breed contributed it is unprovable. There could also be a color saturation issue related to the XX in these pups.

I'm not pointing fingers butt I will have all the tests ran. I will get to the bottom of this.chu k

Don't most breeds that are competitive, in horseback trials or trials in general, have some pointer in them somewhere?

Has the test been sent in already??

mask wrote:Don't most breeds that are competitive, in horseback trials or trials in general, have some pointer in them somewhere?

I think you will find most dogs in pointer trials have some pointer in them. Most dogs in other breed trials do not. Do not forget the word most.

Ezzy

As humans developed breeds of dogs, we selected from what we could observe. We only have the effects of about four to five DOZEN genes to choose from. Most purebred dogs are 95% dog and 5% purebred.

The DNa has been sent in the first try did not have enough salvia
The second round is in the hands of the akc. This was here third br3eding.Cally had5mazter hunters and three fc1afc in to breedings to cutter

A

I just wanted to thank all who have helped with test sites as for answers they won't stop me from finding out. On s side note Kirby that said mark told hiM that aces sire was a pointer.this I's just back yard talk.I'm not starting any conflicte buttsomebody noes. Which hunt or not I'll find the broom

Well I just have a few words from us then I'm done with this. We have been breeding this line (the Slick line for 20+ yrs) we've NEVER had any orange/lemon/white pups to this day!!! We have done tighter line breeding than this Cally x Ace breeding with NO issues. Someone needs to check the other dogs in his kennel or his neighbors yard for the other suspect. I'm almost very positive that one of the #1 ai'ing vets in the USA screwed up and inserted the wrong semen. It is possiable but highly unlikely from that place.
We would have NO problem taking any of our females back to the Ace semen if we so desired.
One last thing our client had 4 breeding/litters out of NFC/FC Sanjo's Sin City Slicker "Ole Slick", we've had TONS of litters out of NFC/NC/NSDC/NASDC/FC Heide's Mighty City Slicker "Slick" and FC Sin City Slick Ace "Ace" and Ace's son's and again have not had any wrong colored pups!!!!
Our record and reputation speaks for it's self!!!

Way to take the moral low road, very disappointing.

Im new here and am somewhat confused.

First off, DNA testing....is a great tool.
Thank goodness for it, it certainly takes away any guesswork.

Now Robbi don't get your blood pressure up too much over this. How's the old man doing?

ElhewPointer wrote:

cmc274 wrote:Way to take the moral low road, very disappointing.

I actually don't blame BDK. Ive had the "pleasure" in meeting Mr. Hanshaw. Robbi isn't really out of line here im affraid.

If you feel the same way then call me785-887-6550

IMO I would think both owners of the sire and dam would be more then willing to work together to find the truth...

Ms. Cage wrote:IMO I would think both owners of the sire and dam would be more then willing to work together to find the truth...

This is exactly where I fall out also. I would be chompin at the bit to get the testing done to prove the straws were switched or something. To find ream answers. Sucks for both parties as there is probably alot of money, hard work, and passion behind all dogs involved. Very likely just a AI mistake or misbreeding or who KNOWS! then dont burn all your bridges just yet. Just wait till you have real knowlege.

There is a CD carrier back in my lines. When I bought a dog I found out after that she might be a carrier. Mom was clear and dad "was not tested I had her tested and thankfully she was clear. But after my litter was born I recieved a call from a guy with an interesting story. He had bought a puppy from a breeder sired by a well known successful sire. All was well at first but quickly he realized something was wrong with his puppy. TURNS OUT

Sorry.... kindle limits my post size
Turns out she was CD AFFECTED. This caused a quiet private stir I later found out and the stud owner jumped to get the CD testing done. Owner of puppy did DNA testing. Bitch owner tested bitch. Results as follows:
Bitch: carrier
stud: clear non carrier
DNA: not consitant with sire.
So armed with this knowledge the story comes out that 3 days before the breeding took place between claimed stud and bitch, the kennel assistant had had the bitch escape and she tied with another dog in the kennel. A close relative now known as a carrier. SO you see what knowing the real story does! Terrible that there were affected pups but that pup sure was loved by her owner anyway!
And yes they did DNA with that sire and it matched.

Hanshaw wrote:I just wanted to thank all who have helped with test sites as for answers they won't stop me from finding out. On s side note Kirby that said mark told hiM that aces sire was a pointer.this I's just back yard talk.I'm not starting any conflicte buttsomebody noes. Which hunt or not I'll find the broom

Unless you have DNA proof that such a backyard discussion is true then you should leave it at just that. There's absolutely no point in using names or dragging people into this mess without knowing for certain where the problem or blame lies. There is plenty of proof and I can certainly bet DNA taken that Ace has sired plenty without throwing an off colored pup. Even proof that he has been line bred without an off color issue. From here out names need to be left out unless you have some proof in hand as to why your pups look like pointers. There is no need for name calling or discussions of members private matters. However, there are some statements that have been made that are hurting the reputations of people and kennels that is unnecessary and uncalled for and it needs to stop.

If you have the results then provide them, until then speculation needs to remain out of it.

Joe

Could /would the VET also confirm that the AI was done as directed, and that he was not negligent such as mixing?

Basically ruling out any error / accident..

jcbuttry8 wrote:

Hanshaw wrote:I just wanted to thank all who have helped with test sites as for answers they won't stop me from finding out. On s side note Kirby that said mark told hiM that aces sire was a pointer.this I's just back yard talk.I'm not starting any conflicte buttsomebody noes. Which hunt or not I'll find the broom

Unless you have DNA proof that such a backyard discussion is true then you should leave it at just that. There's absolutely no point in using names or dragging people into this mess without knowing for certain where the problem or blame lies. There is plenty of proof and I can certainly bet DNA taken that Ace has sired plenty without throwing an off colored pup. Even proof that he has been line bred without an off color issue. From here out names need to be left out unless you have some proof in hand as to why your pups look like pointers. There is no need for name calling or discussions of members private matters. However, there are some statements that have been made that are hurting the reputations of people and kennels that is unnecessary and uncalled for and it needs to stop.

If you have the results then provide them, until then speculation needs to remain out of it.

Joe

To funny, way to fall in line.

I also am curious about the results. I am most anxious to know if the issue was caused by something other than a strong pointer infusion, and if that is the case what caused it. Any other result will be no surprise to anyone.

ACooper wrote:

jcbuttry8 wrote:

Hanshaw wrote:I just wanted to thank all who have helped with test sites as for answers they won't stop me from finding out. On s side note Kirby that said mark told hiM that aces sire was a pointer.this I's just back yard talk.I'm not starting any conflicte buttsomebody noes. Which hunt or not I'll find the broom

Unless you have DNA proof that such a backyard discussion is true then you should leave it at just that. There's absolutely no point in using names or dragging people into this mess without knowing for certain where the problem or blame lies. There is plenty of proof and I can certainly bet DNA taken that Ace has sired plenty without throwing an off colored pup. Even proof that he has been line bred without an off color issue. From here out names need to be left out unless you have some proof in hand as to why your pups look like pointers. There is no need for name calling or discussions of members private matters. However, there are some statements that have been made that are hurting the reputations of people and kennels that is unnecessary and uncalled for and it needs to stop.

If you have the results then provide them, until then speculation needs to remain out of it.

Joe

To funny, way to fall in line.

I also am curious about the results. I am most anxious to know if the issue was caused by something other than a strong pointer infusion, and if that is the case what caused it. Any other result will be no surprise to anyone.

You could be right coop, I will definitely check on that. Wasn't thinking of jt as falling in line, its just when a post starts to sound like my house when my 12,13, and 15 get home thought I would help a few back out of the sand box.

Joe

Speculation about potential cross breeding dogs is out of bounds and should not be made public, and yet speculation about a persons health and mental health is perfectly okay for those same folks crying foul on the dog speculation.

ACooper wrote:Speculation about potential cross breeding dogs is out of bounds and should not be made public, and yet speculation about a person health and mental health is perfectly okay for those same folks crying foul on the dog speculation.

I'm surprised the blue dawn post is still up. I do know one person who was banned from the board "pronto" for speaking his mind about another person on the board. I think it was called a personal attack... Just saying.

Identity DNA will have to be completed on dam and offspring and the test for color dilution will have to be done at UC Davis before any conclusions can be made.

What will be done with the pups?

Most impt question is can they be Registered and Can they compete, if confirmed cross bred?

I could give one a home..

You can all have fun with this site I never once bad mouthed any one nor do yo no who I really am and if you don't like it then call me any one who has s problrm

Rockstar wrote:What will be done with the pups?

Most impt question is can they be Registered and Can they compete, if confirmed cross bred?

I could give one a home..

If the AKC ID DNA matches, they can be registered and entered in performance events. This is an electric acid Koolaid test for genetics as a disqualifier if they are "ee."

ACooper wrote:Speculation about potential cross breeding dogs is out of bounds and should not be made public, and yet speculation about a persons health and mental health is perfectly okay for those same folks crying foul on the dog speculation.

Not sure if this was aimed at me but I thought i covered both issues. I completely agree that the personal attack was way out of line. Just as with anything else. Show your proof. Without it keep it to yourself.

Joe

Unless you have DNA proof that such a backyard discussion is true then you should leave it at just that. There's absolutely no point in using names or dragging people into this mess without knowing for certain where the problem or blame lies. There is plenty of proof and I can certainly bet DNA taken that Ace has sired plenty without throwing an off colored pup. Even proof that he has been line bred without an off color issue. From here out names need to be left out unless you have some proof in hand as to why your pups look like pointers. There is no need for name calling or discussions of members private matters. However, there are some statements that have been made that are hurting the reputations of people and kennels that is unnecessary and uncalled for and it needs to stop.

If you have the results then provide them, until then speculation needs to remain out of it.

I agree peoples names and all info about individual people should be OFF LIMITS publically.
Dog names now.... this is a forum ABOUT dogs.
But really at this point its water under the bridge till the testing is in. Good luck all.

After reading the post it would seem to me that Hanshaw posted a question about a breeding and I really didn't see anywhere that he claimed to really know what was going on. All he really said was he planned on getting to the bottom of it.

99% of the speculation was coming from other sources.

Even if his bitch got bred to a ee carrier she would still have to be at least a Ee for a yellow or red to express itself in the offspring. That would mean there is certainly more to this than a straw being switched or a pointer jumping the fence. I am assuming that he was not the breeder of the bitch in question.

How can you seriously call Hanshaw the bad guy here? Makes no sense to me.

First and foremost the sire in question and being accused is deseased. He was AKC DNA'd as well as was his sire and I believe his grand sire. The Healthgene (EE/ee) test just came about over the last few years.
Another point we've been breeding these lines for as long as I've been in this game which is almost 23 yrs. and my husband for over 30 + yrs and have had NO problems or updates from ppl that have also had these lines (that have been brought to our attention). We are still breeding/crossing closer/tighter litters than this one and NOT had any issues. We have NO problem doing more of these breedings until there is a proven problem.
I apologize to some that seem to think that I am crossing the line and maybe yes I am but I've sat here and read all this BS being slung at my husband, a good client/friend, our kennel and the main bloodlines that we are using and have been promoting for years. I let this get to a boiling point and shouldn't have done it but wanted those of you who don't know and have only heard pretty much the originator of this threads side.
I thank all that know us, have these same bloodlines and have stood and still stand behind us even through my so called flying off the handle finally and not doing the businesslike thing.
Our kennel record speaks for itself as well as all the dogs we've trained, campaigned and bred through the years and we hope to continue to keep this breed and lines going as well as our records.
Thanks again to all and again I apologize to those I've offended in my letting my blood boil to it's so called breaking point.
One last note *you can ask our clients, past clients, friends ect... on this GDF, that if there is a problem anywhere we'd be the FIRST to say there was a problem with whatever it is/or was*.

Had forgot that anyone that has pups like this, we'd not register (if they could which I doubt they could) , would have spayed/or neutured, and would sell to hunting dog homes or family homes. Why would you try to register, campaign and breed something that if wasn't pure. What are you gaining?? Nothing .

Ypu can register them and breed them, also if you bred them to a EE then there would be no chance of lemon and white pups.... Only a 50% chance of being a carrier.

Would someone breed them, I'm sure they would. There was a litter advertising then as rare on here a few months ago. Should you ? No.

It's a recessive trait and not something that says without a doubt there was a pointer in the wood shed. Could there be, of course... Could someone own a pointer and two shorthairs , breed the pointer in and use the GSP name to register the dog??? I'm thinking so. Can you look at some shorthairs and say they look like pointers, I'm sure you could.

I have read this forum from the beginning and saw nothing that was incriminating anyone. I did see a lot of questions which were clearly stated that no one had the answers. As long as it continues like that I see nothing anyone should get personally upset about. I would think that after years of being involved, BDK would pretty well know that no one is taking shots at them. But there are questions unanswered and until they are people will continue to speculate but I have been impressed with the very civil way this has progressed till now. Hopefully everyone involved will lpook for the answers so everyone will know just what happened and how.

Ezzy

ultracarry wrote:Ypu can register them and breed them, also if you bred them to a EE then there would be no chance of lemon and white pups.... Only a 50% chance of being a carrier.

Would someone breed them, I'm sure they would. There was a litter advertising then as rare on here a few months ago. Should you ? No.

It's a recessive trait and not something that says without a doubt there was a pointer in the wood shed. Could there be, of course... Could someone own a pointer and two shorthairs , breed the pointer in and use the GSP name to register the dog??? I'm thinking so. Can you look at some shorthairs and say they look like pointers, I'm sure you could.

If they can be or not is not the question I would ask. My question would be the same as Robbi's, why would anyone want to? They do not fit the standard for the breed so techinally they should not be considered purebred by anyone.

Ezzy

Thanks Coop

You could at least avoid breeding to a ee stud alot easier than a Ee. Which one is really worse? Nobody is going to complain about getting lemon colored pups out of a lemon colored dog. No one is going to waste a wad of cash and time on a breeding that turns out to be worthless.

mountaindogs wrote:Sorry.... kindle limits my post size
Turns out she was CD AFFECTED. This caused a quiet private stir I later found out and the stud owner jumped to get the CD testing done. Owner of puppy did DNA testing. Bitch owner tested bitch. Results as follows:
Bitch: carrier
stud: clear non carrier
DNA: not consitant with sire.
So armed with this knowledge the story comes out that 3 days before the breeding took place between claimed stud and bitch, the kennel assistant had had the bitch escape and she tied with another dog in the kennel. A close relative now known as a carrier. SO you see what knowing the real story does! Terrible that there were affected pups but that pup sure was loved by her owner anyway!
And yes they did DNA with that sire and it matched.

Welcome to the Club.

I had no idea what CD was and neither of my dogs parents were tested until the stud owner got a blind puppy bak from a different breeding with the same stud.

3 years later I have a dog I have sunk alot of time and effort into thats not worth a "bleep" thing. I love him to death and wouldnt dream of parting with him just because of this minor issue. But I did get away from all the dog sports and forums for 4 years because of it.

Fortunatly for me... this other puppy was several years old at the time my clear to clear litter was born. I was not worried at that point becasue had done the genetic test, and chosen a tested clear sire also. The guy who called saw the pedigree and called to let me know about the carrier. With untested dogs it as easy as that have a huge issue.

In labradors, Ch Franklin's Pickpocket for Kerrybrook MH is a known EIC carrier. He is only one of many many top sire carriers. Most were actually field lines. The dog is now deceased but still bred to frequently via AI. All his puppies are always tested. Pete's line remains some of the best dual potential and very popular still. Much like CD and LD it is a serious health issue but thankfully known about and now tested for. Also like LD the field line are were the carriers were heaviest. It is STILL suspected that as much as 30% of registered labs today may be carriers.
The difference from the whole above regarding color issues is transpareny for one. And CD for one was heavily studied and isolated, is nearly completely isolated to GSPs. The example is given only to show that is simply that a breeding went wrong and the wrong sire was actually producing the pups. It does happen but shouldn't. But was caught and corrected and the DNA testing confirmed the true story.
If all those people involved had turned a blind eye to that

... cont...
That says something in itself. But everyone jumped in and tested and it was solved.

Why did the last two posts get deleted?