National dog Show

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National dog Show

Post by Winchey » Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:22 pm

"Beagles were originaly developed to hunt rabbits, but you can't really look at a dog like that and think of it as being any kind of serious hunter can you."

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Re: National dog Show

Post by Angus » Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:45 pm

The Weimaraner was prancing around like he should be in black leather and carrying rainbow flags. :lol:

Not much muscle definition on those dogs.

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Re: National dog Show

Post by 1vizsla » Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:58 pm

Not this again!

Carla

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National dog Show

Post by brad27 » Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:15 pm

1vizsla wrote:Not this again!

Carla
The show or the commentary? Lol

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Re: National dog Show

Post by TAK » Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:41 pm

The Sporting breeds are coming up! Really excited now!

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Re: National dog Show

Post by birddog1968 » Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:43 pm

Can you imagine a Miller Pointer in the sporting class :lol: Or Joe Shadow.....cat foot your out :wink:
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Re: National dog Show

Post by TAK » Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:46 pm

Pointer.... WOW muscled up, high crackin tail! Briaonnnn!
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Re: National dog Show

Post by TAK » Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:47 pm

The brit does look good!

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Re: National dog Show

Post by wems2371 » Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:51 pm

TAK wrote:The brit does look good!
I really liked the brittany too.

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Re: National dog Show

Post by TAK » Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:52 pm

wems2371 wrote:
TAK wrote:The brit does look good!
I really liked the brittany too.
Looked huntable!

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Re: National dog Show

Post by TAK » Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:57 pm

I miss the GSP?

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Re: National dog Show

Post by TAK » Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:59 pm

I was robbed! i missed the GSP!

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Re: National dog Show

Post by Winchey » Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:00 pm

I liked the Britt as well, duck toller looked pretty good too. They were going on about count noble when the setter was up, count noble looks more like my setter than the one up there.

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Re: National dog Show

Post by TAK » Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:11 pm

Winchey wrote:I liked the Britt as well, duck toller looked pretty good too. They were going on about count noble when the setter was up, count noble looks more like my setter than the one up there.
I hope no ones dog looks like these dogs... My opinion not one of them are a true test of what the dogs should be...

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Re: National dog Show

Post by TAK » Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:17 pm

Freezbee dog was cool!

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Re: National dog Show

Post by KwikIrish » Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:29 am

TAK wrote:
Winchey wrote:I liked the Britt as well, duck toller looked pretty good too. They were going on about count noble when the setter was up, count noble looks more like my setter than the one up there.
I hope no ones dog looks like these dogs... My opinion not one of them are a true test of what the dogs should be...
Your opinion is severely flawed.
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Re: National dog Show

Post by AzDoggin » Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:34 am

TAK wrote:Freezbee dog was cool!
It was.

An ACD wasn't it? Awesome dogs. Makes me want to move to the country and get some cattle just so I can have one (or 4). :D

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Re: National dog Show

Post by wems2371 » Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:21 pm

The shorthair had a bad showing, when I watched the online footage available. It was a little standoffish with the judge, and from what the narrator was saying was spooked by a particular camera. It bunny hopped, kept turning, and had it's tail clamped on the down and back gaiting. It didn't stand a chance IMO with that kind of performance.

EDIT: Here should be the link for some of the individual breeds they didn't show.
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/33929567/

I don't know the history on any of the sporting group dogs, but would be interested to know the breeding on some of the breeds that are better known for Dual Champions, like the brittany.
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Re: National dog Show

Post by Gertie » Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:34 pm

AzDoggin wrote:
TAK wrote:Freezbee dog was cool!
It was.

An ACD wasn't it? Awesome dogs. Makes me want to move to the country and get some cattle just so I can have one (or 4). :D

Just go ahead and get one. We have one and we don't have cows. He occupies his time herding setters :mrgreen:
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Re: National dog Show

Post by ultracarry » Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:48 pm

wems2371 wrote:The shorthair had a bad showing, when I watched the online footage available. It was a little standoffish with the judge, and from what the narrator was saying was spooked by a particular camera. It bunny hopped, kept turning, and had it's tail clamped on the down and back gaiting. It didn't stand a chance IMO with that kind of performance.

I don't know the history on any of the sporting group dogs, but would be interested to know the breeding on some of the breeds that are better known for Dual Champions, like the brittany.

Now that's a GSP! How much over weight was it?

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Re: National dog Show

Post by KwikIrish » Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:06 pm

Though these breeds aren't better known for their duals, the English is from setter ridge kennels which has produced several DC's, but I am not aware of this dog has any of the DC's in the closer part of the pedigree.
The Irish is out of fyrethorn Irish setters. They produce some very trainable dogs which have excelled in the obedience ring and agility ring. I'm unaware if they have any dogs which have been successful in hunting in their breedings
Those are the only two I know anything about from that lineup. Come eukanuba and Westminster, I'll see dogs which I am probably a bit more well versed on.
My old boss had a nice Norwegian elkhound who also had an issue with the camera at that show. It's a shame when that happens, as even the nicest of dogs will destroy themselves over it. Even the most socialized of dogs can be susceptible.

As far as overweight goes, nothing frustrates me more about the presentation of a dog than that of which a fat dog is shown. I'll especially never understand the labs, but there is no reason for a show dog to be in that poor of condition. Now we all vary on our interpretation of "fat" but a body roll while moving is the epitome of fat in a dog.
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Re: National dog Show

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:20 pm

Some of you know & some don't but we use to raise & show Dobes,I had a Red bitch that was close to a CH when she injured a rear leg that made her have a slight limp.Though we never could find the reason! :?
We went back to back W Bitch in West Virginia if I remember right & I was told by my Amt handler & a few friends before we went that she was underweight.
One of those Judges was a well respected Dobe Judge & one time pro handler Peter Knoop from California.When that wk end was over I said well I guess an underweight dog
was better then all the rest even if they may have been in better weight. :wink:
OBTW her sire CH Mikadobe's Cupid won the breed at Westminster one yr in the 70's

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Re: National dog Show

Post by Stoneface » Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:59 pm

I think a lot of the standards are just flat wrong, but a lot of them turn out a legitimate product. Shorthairs and Britts turn out individuals all the time that champion in the ring and finish in the field. The standard supports what the breed is for. The Pointer standard, on the other hand, is a mess. They put so much emphasis on the head and require that the top of the head be level and the topline of the muzzle be parallel with the top of the skull or turned up (they call it "dish"). Why? Because it's a "hallmark" of the breed. Apparently some think that the upward-turned nose will put the nose higher in the air, making the dog better at scenting in the air as opposed to the ground. Cat feet are faulted, tails carried above 20' are faulted, etc. While the standard is incorrect, what is most incorrect is how the breeders disregard a lot of it. The standard opens by saying, "The Pointer is bred primarily for sport afield: he should unmistakably look and act the part." Some of the dogs you see in shows are so arrow-thin, narrow-chested and just stoic that you would not think he could put out any kind of decent race in the field. They pay no attention to fore angulation at all, almost.

What I think I hate most about the show set is that they refer to something that isn't in keeping with the standard as "not correct." Who the heck elected them the kings and queens to decide what is correct and what isn't? And what makes them such an authority? I really think a bunch of folks sat around, high on the thought of their esteem, and decided to outline a standard without any real knowledge to back it up. If you read the illustrated standard it says over and over that "the Pointer should not have trait X because it is a hound trait." It's almost like they didn't consider what makes a Pointer a Pointer, but what makes a Pointer not a hound.

It's a shame what both sides of the breed have done. If it were up to me - and I may try this when I have more means - I would try to establish the Americanized Pointer as it's own breed. It is just not the same breed you see in the show ring today. This is one area a lot of the continental folks deserve kudos on.
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Re: National dog Show

Post by Sharon » Sat Nov 24, 2012 10:02 pm

It was great to see the Russell terrier finally recognized. Fine looking dog.
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Re: National dog Show

Post by mountaindogs » Sat Nov 24, 2012 10:09 pm

Anybody know who the lab was? In the flash I saw...looked likeit had a waist which wouldbe nice...

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Re: National dog Show

Post by ckirsch » Sat Nov 24, 2012 10:56 pm

To be honest, the thing I typically notice on the rare occasion that I watch a dog show is the very poor condition so many of the handlers are in. I'm often worried that one might keel over from a heart attack when they "run" the dogs around the ring. From the looks of it, most of them don't get much exercise beyond that one lap around the ring. I think the dog would show better if the handler wasn't red in the face and huffing and puffing after thirty or forty yards of jogging.

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Re: National dog Show

Post by TAK » Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:22 am

KwikIrish wrote:
TAK wrote:
Winchey wrote:I liked the Britt as well, duck toller looked pretty good too. They were going on about count noble when the setter was up, count noble looks more like my setter than the one up there.
I hope no ones dog looks like these dogs... My opinion not one of them are a true test of what the dogs should be...
Your opinion is severely flawed.
Maybe... But breeding a bird dog for any other reason other than being a bird dog is wrong! You having a Irish yourself, not only should be a member but the Pres. of the wagon! The Irish my family owned and talked about 50 years ago could not be that of what we have today!

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Re: National dog Show

Post by dan v » Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:33 am

mountaindogs wrote:Anybody know who the lab was? In the flash I saw...looked likeit had a waist which wouldbe nice...
You know the poster in the vet's office, the one from Purina that illustrates the various degrees of body condition from severely overweight to severely underweight? The black lab would have been the poster child for the severely obese canine. But hey, fat is more buoyant than muscle...from what I hear.
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Re: National dog Show

Post by KwikIrish » Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:02 am

TAK wrote:
TAK wrote:
Winchey wrote:I liked the Britt as well, duck toller looked pretty good too. They were going on about count noble when the setter was up, count noble looks more like my setter than the one up there.
I hope no ones dog looks like these dogs... My opinion not one of them are a true test of what the dogs should be...
Maybe... But breeding a bird dog for any other reason other than being a bird dog is wrong! You having a Irish yourself, not only should be a member but the Pres. of the wagon! The Irish my family owned and talked about 50 years ago could not be that of what we have today!
That's where you are wrong.
My Irish is show bred and is completely capable of doing the job her breed was created for.
She might not win a trial with her tail or range, but intensity, resiliency, bidability, ability, and heart are things she epitomizes.
I'll take another like her any day, but know I would pass if I wanted to be competitive in the horseback world.
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Re: National dog Show

Post by mlittle » Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:17 am

Good lookin dog Kelli. I love the fact that she can do both too. I hope to see her chase some birds soon!

I have never been one to care about if a dog can show, but enjoy watching the shows. I am not a guy that cares so much about dogs "in standard". I am about the nose, run and style.

Being a Britt fan, my belief isn't all that popular as some of the breeders frown on dogs that are too tall, have too much wave in the coat, have an off colored nose etc...I don;t give a flip what color the nose is as long as it works like a vacuum.

I do however appreciate the fact that they enjoy showing dogs and I understand that they feel the are "bettering the breed". My hats off to them for that. As log as bettering the breed is making it faster, snappier and with a nose like a vacuum I am in!

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Re: National dog Show

Post by Steve007 » Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:17 am

My memory is that some years ago, Bob Wehle of Elhew fame was asked to judge Sweepstakes (young dogs; no judging license requred to judge) at a Pointer Club of America National Specialty. He picked out a young imported English bitch no one had ever heard of for his Best in Sweeps. She went on to win over 20 Bests in Show and to become the top-winning Pointer bitch in breed history. Really topflight breeders have a firm grasp of structure and in those breeds where there is no clear "breed split", it shows. Many field breeders could benefit greatly from some genuine study of it.

There are certainly plenty of dual champions, depending obviously on the breed. Such dogs in all likelihood have not just a brief good career but a long career in the field as a result of proper structure.

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Re: National dog Show

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:12 pm

Ckirsch,I know what you are saying but I think you would be very surprised by some of these show handlers.The good pros have a string of dogs just like trial pros they don't just run one dog around the ring & their done.The good also show all or mutiple breeds which can be in the ring at the same time AT opposite ends of the grounds so that not only run in the show ring but they run from ring to ring aswell.
George Rood one of the most respected all breed Pro handlers & respected International Dobe judge,handler & knowledgeable Dobe men ever died at the age of 98.He was an olympic swimmer as a young man,also a very good baseball player that may have made the pros had it not been for an injury.The most interesting to me anyways is he was a POOL Shark that not only played Minnesota Phats but sent him on his way with a couple thousand dollars less in his pockets.George ate a handful of vitamins every morning & had a terrible back problem but he never quit & was a wealth of knowledge & a very interesting man to talk to.
One of the most well dreesed & well groomed pros I ever met,also a ver polite man.

You can find a few write ups about him on the net,he was a Dayton Ohio,resident.

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Re: National dog Show

Post by Stoneface » Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:21 pm

Bench shows, in and of themselves, are not bad at all. What I mean is, the concept is right on, but the way show people have drawn it into more of a beauty pageant and a political arena than a practical evaluation of a dog's form to allow for maximized function is where the whole thing is flawed. Heck, that's like sanctioning birddog competitions to gauge a dog's worth in the field then adding on a bunch of fluff that has nothing to do with hunting birds. But, we field folk would never do anything like that, that's too much like what the show folk have done.
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National dog Show

Post by brad27 » Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:13 pm

What have the field people added to their competition that is fluff?

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Re: National dog Show

Post by ultracarry » Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:38 pm

brad27 wrote:What have the field people added to their competition that is fluff?
Retrieve, maybe.

I think he has been hitting the sauce after a long weekend.....

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Re: National dog Show

Post by KwikIrish » Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:40 pm

Brad,
I would ventur to compare a trait like the field person's desire to have a "12 o'clock tail" to a a show persons desire for their dog to have something such as excessive coat or what ever breed standard calls for... The tail doesn't make the field dog find birds any better than its brace mate and the coat doesn't make the show dog built more correctly than its competition, but both make the pictures more desirable to those who are performing with those dogs the usually the judges at the venues.
My version of fluff.
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Re: National dog Show

Post by Chukar12 » Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:59 pm

On the subject of tails...too much is made of the position and carriage of tails. it is most certainly a factor but in average club trials it's a hair splitting factor whether it be carriage or position. it is spoken of frequently because in big stakes I.e. championships it is likely we are splitting hairs.

Also, the position of the tail on point often speaks of intensity and training, something that is usually reflective in other pieces of a notable performance. it seems to me that it is a favorite argument of those on the outside looking in at competition and usually characterized in a manner that shows a gross misunderstanding of the depth and complexity it may signal.

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Re: National dog Show

Post by Winchey » Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:15 pm

Well excessive coat can actually be detrimental to a field dog, both in heat tolerance and in the pain of pulling crap out of it. Most of the field setters I see get clipped. As for tails, I think Chuckar is bang on. You can win some of the small stakes with a dog with a bad tail by outrunning and out birding the field, but in the championships you are going to have to have a pretty special dog to overcome a really bad tail. The talent is just too tight.

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Re: National dog Show

Post by KwikIrish » Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:28 pm

Chukar12 wrote:On the subject of tails...too much is made of the position and carriage of tails. it is most certainly a factor but in average club trials it's a hair splitting factor whether it be carriage or position. it is spoken of frequently because in big stakes I.e. championships it is likely we are splitting hairs.
That would be my point, some dogs don't have the physical ability to point with their tail that high, it doesn't stop the dog from laying down a stellar performance.
This is exactly why a show dogs coat would be an equal comparison (considering a coated breed). In regular competition, the coat shouldn't be the deciding factor (so long as it is the "proper type") but in big shows/"championships", it could make or break a dogs ability to succeed.
Both examples can make or break the picture as a whole but neither prevents the dog from doing what it's there for, finding birds, or being judged on its structure.

Winchey- you've miss-understood the point of my comparison. My point is that those two features (strictly limited to the examples of the dog which has the feature and not to the other comparee, are parts I would consider fluff. Show coat on a show dog and 12 o clock tail on a field dog... Neither inhibits that dog from doing its job as a show dog or as a pointing dog, but they are the icing on the cake... Fluff.
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Re: National dog Show

Post by ultracarry » Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:32 pm

Chukar12 wrote:On the subject of tails...too much is made of the position and carriage of tails. it is most certainly a factor but in average club trials it's a hair splitting factor whether it be carriage or position. it is spoken of frequently because in big stakes I.e. championships it is likely we are splitting hairs.

Also, the position of the tail on point often speaks of intensity and training, something that is usually reflective in other pieces of a notable performance. it seems to me that it is a favorite argument of those on the outside looking in at competition and usually characterized in a manner that shows a gross misunderstanding of the depth and complexity it may signal.
I like your Thinking.

It's also a point brought up by those who have a dog that doesn't perform and they say it is because of the tail set.

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Re: National dog Show

Post by KwikIrish » Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:41 pm

ultracarry wrote:
It's also a point brought up by those who have a dog that doesn't perform and they say it is because of the tail set.
100% true, and rarely is the tail set the defining feature, correct?
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Re: National dog Show

Post by Winchey » Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:46 pm

I am sorry, but I just can't wrap my head around going to a show as a dogs job. Although I am an idiot to most people I know for not just shooting birds on the side of the road like everyone else or being dedicated at all to bird hunting over other game.

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Re: National dog Show

Post by ultracarry » Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:55 pm

KwikIrish wrote:
ultracarry wrote:
It's also a point brought up by those who have a dog that doesn't perform and they say it is because of the tail set.
100% true, and rarely is the tail set the defining feature, correct?
I would say so.

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Re: National dog Show

Post by KwikIrish » Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:03 pm

:roll:
Winchey- Believe it or not, some dogs who are shown also do the job they were bred for also.
I know, hard to follow...
No need for a pity party, we are all here for the same passion, bird dogs. Some can't fathom any ideas but their own, but paramount to these differences is maintaining our ability to have these dogs and do what we love with them, regardless if they are persuing game, or otherwise. I will support dog shows as much as I support field events. I used to give two hoots about the performance ability of my show dogs. Things change, so can the direction of some of these breeds.
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Re: National dog Show

Post by TAK » Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:47 pm

Not really trying to fight about this but I promise you that there are them SHOW homes that the sole purpose of the dog is to show it. Right or wrong they are not measuring the dogs field ability, the reason it was even developed for. Now as I said it is only my opinion... I can apprciate any DC as anyone else, in fact I find it to be neat! I dare say it might even be a better dog! it has the looks to go with the tools!

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dan v
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Re: National dog Show

Post by dan v » Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:49 am

High tails on breeds that have long tails can be certainly more than "fluff".....the high carriage while moving does help the handler keep track of the dog, and the high tail on point can help a person find a dog pointed in tallish grass. I could go on a talk about the differences between high crackin' tails and level crackin' tails and the potential for injury....but the the main difference in tails, whether high or low, and that of length of coat is this. Overly long coat, and more so of the wrong type (cottony) are a misery for a bird dog and it's owner. The common refrain from the coat lovers is, "Well, you can always clip them." Yeah, I suppose you can. But I find the "Average Joe" doesn't...until he/she has to, and then quite often they drag the dog to a groomer for the clip.

I have a long time friend in the breed, she knows how to keep a coated setter. But, the last time I saw her dogs, they were a tangled matted mess. So even those that have the tools and knowledge, fail. And "we" think the average person is going to keep long coated dogs clipped? Get real, breed those "show" setters with less coat....it has no no positive function after a certain length.
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KwikIrish
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Re: National dog Show

Post by KwikIrish » Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:52 am

Okay, than head crank... How's that for fluff?
The point of all of this is that some things make the picture look better though they don't help the do do its job. This applies to both show and field world. We often place emphasis on those traits in times when we are coming down to the nitty gritty details. That's all fluff in my definition of such.

Dan- the coat texture should be the most important feature of the coat. I'm NOT implying that working dogs should have more coat or that we should breed them for coat. Keeping a coated dog is a commitment when one chooses that breeding. Regardless if they are keeping it short, or long, there is a responsibility to keep it maintained.

Tak- I agree with your show homes comment, I used to be one.
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Re: National dog Show

Post by bb560m » Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:00 am

KwikIrish wrote:Tak- I agree with your show homes comment, I used to be one.
Kudos to you for realizing what these dogs were actually meant to do.

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Re: National dog Show

Post by Winchey » Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:10 am

Head crank and tail set also do not detract from what the dog is meant to do. No trial dog breeder is going to put head crank above run and bird finding, some show breeders will put excessive coat ahead of hunt.

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Karen
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Re: National dog Show

Post by Karen » Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:08 am

There are just as many clueless so-called trial breeders as there are show breeders.

The bottom line is you breed for what will win in the game you chose to play. If you're successful and lucky, you sell pups to other like-minded individuals. If not, you're pups go to pet and/or hunting homes, or you're stuck with them.

Critisizing someone else's game does nothing for the sport of field trialing except to discourage people from getting involved, and that's the very last thing we need happening now.

BTW, the show breeders aren't the ones out there outcrossing with Pointers and Setters. You might not LIKE what they produce, but you can bet their MARS DNA test will come back clean. I wish we could say the same for the field dogs.

Now go back and re-read this thread from the perspective of a potential new competitor....one that owns a "show dog" and thought hunt tests looked like fun. The first thread they open is about the National Dog Show! Something they can relate to. Would you feel welcome?
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