Should birddogs be judged/titled based on conformation?

[JKP]

Those wanting a conformation rating along with a performance evaluation gravitate towards the JGHV testing system.

I don't think that is very high on the list. I have reservations that conformation and coat ratings are becoming too important. Some folks seem to think that you can "paint" by the numbers.

No system is without weaknesses or faults. In the end we gravitate to like minded folks...which set goals and priorities...and variations of breeds occur.

[adogslife]

Some folks seem to think that you can "paint" by the numbers.

So true.

Buyer beware.

[DonF]

I think it should work both ways. Conformation is important but conformation that ruins the original intent of the dog is bad. I think that before you can have a championship on a field bred dog, it should have to have passed some test to show it had no disqualifying faults. The only bad part of that is I think the show people pretty much run the breed clubs. Look at the AKC Setters, Irish, Gordon and English. All the long hair they want to see is not good for the field dog. Look at the Springer Spaniel. And probably the biggest disaster in the dog world, the Cocker Spaniel. The standard used to say no cutting the hair or clipping the ear's hair, but you didn't, you might just as well got home. A good coat can be judged other than by length. At the same time, before a dog can get a show championship, they should prove that the dogs still have the skills looked for in the breed. Maybe to become a show champion, it would need to obtain a MH dregee. I've seen to many trial dogs with faults that would be disqualifying and to many show dogs that couldn't find a hamburger tied to their nose.

[jasonw99]

When I asked if dogs should be judged/titled based on conformation, shows like the AKC and Westminster shows you see on TV is the last thing I meant. What I'm refering to is the dogs being evaluated more for form, pracitcal form. Chest, straightness of limbs, tail set, bite, to make sure there isn't a second head growing out of the dog's neck. At the very least, things of utility that all birddogs need to have in order perform their job optimally.

WHat does a "bad" tail set have to do with performance? What does a bad bite have to do with peformance?

If your dog doesnt have the skeletal structure odds are it isnt going to do good in any type of trial that requires endurance. The field trial sorts that all out.

[JKP]

The field trial sorts that all out.

Don't agree. Lasting an hour doesn't require much.

I like heart...but a dog with heart AND great geometry will simply outrun and outlast heart alone...IMO. I think we all need to know what good construction and movement are...and why it happens....Don't need a show for that.

[brad27]

The field trial sorts that all out.

Don't agree. Lasting an hour doesn't require much.

I like heart...but a dog with heart AND great geometry will simply outrun and outlast heart alone...IMO. I think we all need to know what good construction and movement are...and why it happens....Don't need a show for that.

You should bring your dogs to the next FT then. Since it doesn't require much.

[adogslife]

WHat does a "bad" tail set have to do with performance? What does a bad bite have to do with peformance?

If your dog doesnt have the skeletal structure odds are it isnt going to do good in any type of trial that requires endurance. The field trial sorts that all out.

What performance?

Structure affects movement.
In young,enrgetic,driven dogs affects of poor conformation can go unnoticed by those not knowing what to look for.
Sometimes, a good way to know how fast a dog may be is to look at it's tail set.
A bad bite may affect performance if the dog is required to retreive something heavier and bulkier than a quail.
Missing teeth may weaken a jaw, a weak jaw is not desirable.

Don't agree. Lasting an hour doesn't require much.

You should bring your dogs to the next FT then. Since it doesn't require much.

What does lasting an hour require?

[Winchey]

Lasting an hour at a field trial pace requires a ton of heart and desire, stamina, great conditioning, heat tolerance when it is warm, and to do it over many seasons requires good conformation. I have seen quite a few dogs that couldn't do it. I have also seen a few that get it done everytime I have seen them hit the ground.

[duckn66]

I think it should work both ways. Conformation is important but conformation that ruins the original intent of the dog is bad. I think that before you can have a championship on a field bred dog, it should have to have passed some test to show it had no disqualifying faults. The only bad part of that is I think the show people pretty much run the breed clubs. Look at the AKC Setters, Irish, Gordon and English. All the long hair they want to see is not good for the field dog. Look at the Springer Spaniel. And probably the biggest disaster in the dog world, the Cocker Spaniel. The standard used to say no cutting the hair or clipping the ear's hair, but you didn't, you might just as well got home. A good coat can be judged other than by length. At the same time, before a dog can get a show championship, they should prove that the dogs still have the skills looked for in the breed. Maybe to become a show champion, it would need to obtain a MH dregee. I've seen to many trial dogs with faults that would be disqualifying and to many show dogs that couldn't find a hamburger tied to their nose.

This ^^.

The show people run AKC. AKC is a joke. There will never be a requirment for a show dog to be able to HAVE to perform in the field as originally bred to do as long as AKC is around and is ran by the show ring.

I have my own opinion about field trials which if I laid them out here it would turn into a blood bath.

[adogslife]

I've seen to many trial dogs with faults that would be disqualifying and to many show dogs that couldn't find a hamburger tied to their nose.

I've seen show champions with lesser conformation.
Too many people mistake an AKC CH title to indicate perfection.

[Cajun Casey]

Here's the spoiler. Performance events such as Obedience and Rally are open all the way to championship level to mixed breeds. How do you put conformation in that equation?

[brad27]

What does lasting an hour require?

Same thing as running all day does, just a faster speed.

[Oscar]

No, with AFTCA philosophy- and I like so much- is the function makes the conformation. Winning dogs then have the word. What they suggest you is what is done in Germany first function after the conformation. I like how we are in AFTCA

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

A SHOW DOG doesen't have to have ALL that great conformation just no overglaring faults. A TRUE SHOW DOG will beat the more conformationaly CORRECT DOG 90% of the ime if it does not show well.
There is a difference bewteen a REAL SHOW dog & CONFOMATIONLY COREECT DOG the trick is to get both in the same package!! It's not as easy as you think.I have been to more dog shows then I will ever get the chance to attend Field Trials.I have traveled with the handlers,judges,& dined with them kept my mouth shut I listened aswell as talked with some of the best oldtimers that now are mostly gone.
I know how it all plays out.Have not been to one since the early 80s doubtfull I will do it again but have thought about it just to prove my FT dogs fit the standard.

[adogslife]

No, with AFTCA philosophy- and I like so much- is the function makes the conformation. Winning dogs then have the word. What they suggest you is what is done in Germany first function after the conformation. I like how we are in AFTCA

This, I believe, is taken out of context.

It has been proven that incorrect conformation(straight fronts,poor angulation,lack of forchest,short upper arm,long/short croups,etc)
does not prohibit a dog from moving,and moving fast. What wins at field trials and the reason for all the conformational changes in some breeds or lack of a standard at all, is b/c in order to move fast and faster conformation needs to be altered and sometimes in order to win at a field trial faster wins. Conformation/correct,sound structure is ignored.
So, to support the above statement,yes, the function of a field trial dog is considered then the conformation is altered,show titles are not sought nor needed or a breed standard is done away with to create a winning dog/breed.

To each their own.

[Winchey]

How do unsoundly structured trial dogs get beaten up year after year and then go and compete at Ames for 3 hours at 8,9 and 10 years old?

[cjuve]

How do unsoundly structured trial dogs get beaten up year after year and then go and compete at Ames for 3 hours at 8,9 and 10 years old?

It is not as much about how bird dogs or trial dogs are built but more so how they are wired and what is in their head. What sets performance dogs aside is their brain. A trait that the shows do little if anything to prove, a dog with the correct form does little for the breed if they are not wired right.When you do little to prove the function and focus on the form you end up with a pretty house dog.

[adogslife]

Maybe the ones who are winning are structurally sound?

Maybe,lesser structure is over ridden by increased stamina/endurance/conditioning/food then mix in high prey drive and a dog can get through it?

[Wagonmaster]

To answer the original question, in a word - no. In two words - not ever.

The most important characteristic of a bird dog is nose, and right along with that the characteristic dog people call "birdiness" or "bird sense." A dog with a good nose that gets excited about finding birds early in life, will always be a useful bird dog regardless of age, conformation, or anything else.

Right behind nose and bird sense comes heart. A dog can look anyway it wants, but the dog that wins field trials or finds birds for you in the field when others do not, simply has more heart - the will to do and to take joy in doing regardless of conditions or discomfort or pretty much anything else.

One other important characteristic often confused with conformation is style. Style in a bird dog is another word for communication, the dog's ability to tell you emphatically and without question that it most definitely is standing on a bird rather than just standing and wondering what to do next.

There is probably nothing inherently wrong with looking at conformation except for two things. One, conformation people are misguided. They think that a particular hock, or angle, or stifle will produce a dog that functions and it will not - not unless nose, bird sense, heart and style are already there. Second, they move towards fashion without any regard for function, so we have the "low" shephards and the thin, long necked setters, and the monster big shorthairs, and worse, the crosses of fashion such as the labradoodle. Conformation people, I have noticed, are also big on taking their animal to the game farm or to planted bird training sessions where dogs are put right on birds, and then saying they have a bird dog. No, not that either.

I like a pretty dog as much as anyone. But I will, and have, hunted with any dog, regardless of looks, that demonstrates the ability and willingness to find, point and retrieve wild birds. There is nothing else that is important.

[JKP]

Great post Wagonmaster...

The field trial sorts that all out.

Sorts out a lot but no competition, test, evaluation, etc is a surrogate for a breeder knowing what he/she sees. There are a lots of dogs that can run an hour that need improvement.

I'll go out on a limb here (go ahead and criticize me for it)...but a few years back a dog named "Smitty" ran in the GWP Nationals and placed. That dog needed real improvement as far as structure and movement..yet the dog had done a lot of winning and placed again. The dog was straight in the front, too short, pounded the ground rather than flowed across it. Not to pick on this dog...we see it in other breeds too. Knowing why some dogs move better than others is good knowledge to have. Don't think you need a "show" title for that.

The question we should also ask is how these champions are holding up over the years....still eating up ground at 10??? orthopedic problems??? For me, that's the real test of how a dog's put together.

[cjuve]

Great post Wagonmaster...

The field trial sorts that all out.

Sorts out a lot but no competition, test, evaluation, etc is a surrogate for a breeder knowing what he/she sees. There are a lots of dogs that can run an hour that need improvement.

I'll go out on a limb here (go ahead and criticize me for it)...but a few years back a dog named "Smitty" ran in the GWP Nationals and placed. That dog needed real improvement as far as structure and movement..yet the dog had done a lot of winning and placed again. The dog was straight in the front, too short, pounded the ground rather than flowed across it. Not to pick on this dog...we see it in other breeds too. Knowing why some dogs move better than others is good knowledge to have. Don't think you need a "show" title for that.

The question we should also ask is how these champions are holding up over the years....still eating up ground at 10??? orthopedic problems??? For me, that's the real test of how a dog's put together.

We are talking apples and oranges when you compare the big show at Ames and the GWP Nationals, you are talking apples and oranges when you try to compare a GWP to a pointer or setter they just are not bred for the same application.

Miller's Online whelped Feb 2000, 2004 national Champion won the North Dakota Classic in 2010 it was a 69 dog stake, I believe that was the last CH he won.
I am doing a little Chukar hunting right now with a very accomplished 8 yo setter that still eats up the ground and recovers quick.

[Cajun Casey]

My Casey's daddy, Ricky, came out of retirement at eleven and ran one season at least. I believe he got championship placements, also. He lived to be over fourteen.

[Wagonmaster]

We are talking apples and oranges when you compare the big show at Ames and the GWP Nationals, you are talking apples and oranges when you try to compare a GWP to a pointer or setter they just are not bred for the same application.

Well, I will only say this. I have run in the GWP Nationals and a few other nationals, I have been invited to Ames but never managed to get there, but have run and seen pointers run in wild bird stakes including prairie all age trials. Yes, you are talking apples and oranges if you are comparing one field trial type to another. No, you are not talking apples to oranges if you distill the bird dog down to its essential characteristics. Nose, bird sense, heart, style. There are specimens that have these characteristics in virtually every bird dog breed. How big they run for purposes of a particular type of trial, and whether a dog with a particular kind of range is useful as a bird dog, is a whole other subject. Don't get me wrong, I love trials of all types, I have seen pretty much all types that I can think of and can't think of a single trial where there was not at least one dog of some type that made me sit up and say to myself, "Now THAT is a bird dog." I don't remember any of those dogs having a particular hock though.

You can argue all day whether a NASCAR car is better than a Formula 1 car, is better than the little single seaters that run on dirt at the local fairgrounds, but I would personally take a ride in any of them if I got the chance.

[cjuve]

We are talking apples and oranges when you compare the big show at Ames and the GWP Nationals, you are talking apples and oranges when you try to compare a GWP to a pointer or setter they just are not bred for the same application.

Well, I will only say this. I have run in the GWP Nationals and a few other nationals, I have been invited to Ames but never managed to get there, but have run and seen pointers run in wild bird stakes including prairie all age trials. Yes, you are talking apples and oranges if you are comparing one field trial type to another. No, you are not talking apples to oranges if you distill the bird dog down to its essential characteristics. Nose, bird sense, heart, style. There are specimens that have these characteristics in virtually every bird dog breed. How big they run for purposes of a particular type of trial, and whether a dog with a particular kind of range is useful as a bird dog, is a whole other subject. Don't get me wrong, I love trials of all types, I have seen pretty much all types that I can think of and can't think of a single trial where there was not at least one dog of some type that made me sit up and say to myself, "Now THAT is a bird dog." I don't remember any of those dogs having a particular hock though.

You can argue all day whether a NASCAR car is better than a Formula 1 car, is better than the little single seaters that run on dirt at the local fairgrounds, but I would personally take a ride in any of them if I got the chance.

I agree with everything you said and what it takes to make a bird dog my point was that it is not the best comparision between venues and breeds, utimately they are wired the same.

[fuzznut]

JKP- Smitty????? I dont' recall any dog named that that ran nor placed.
Fuzz

[adogslife]

Here is the original question:

I understand hounds, to some extent, are evaluated and judged at hound trials along with the working segment of the event. Should birddogs be evaluated and/or awarded titled based on their conformation? I don't mean the dogs you see handled around a ring at Westminster, but honest to goodness working dogs that get out and hunt regularly, have scars all over and are all muscled up. Should we have an official evaluation of birddogs' form? Even if not competitively, should there be some kind of grading system set up to rate dogs' conformation?

here is the OP'ers clarification:

Stoneface wrote:
When I asked if dogs should be judged/titled based on conformation, shows like the AKC and Westminster shows you see on TV is the last thing I meant. What I'm refering to is the dogs being evaluated more for form, pracitcal form. Chest, straightness of limbs, tail set, bite, to make sure there isn't a second head growing out of the dog's neck. At the very least, things of utility that all birddogs need to have in order perform their job optimally.

wagonmaster replied:
To answer the original question, in a word - no. In two words - not ever.

The most important characteristic of a bird dog is nose, and right along with that the characteristic dog people call "birdiness" or "bird sense." A dog with a good nose that gets excited about finding birds early in life, will always be a useful bird dog regardless of age, conformation, or anything else.

Right behind nose and bird sense comes heart. A dog can look anyway it wants, but the dog that wins field trials or finds birds for you in the field when others do not, simply has more heart - the will to do and to take joy in doing regardless of conditions or discomfort or pretty much anything else.

You have not stated why "not ever".

Would having correct conformation effect the performance of the above mentioned characteristics?
or just slow a dog down enough to lose a field trial?

Trying to establish what's important, b/c a dog with all the above characteristics can still have correct conformation.

[JKP]

ran in the GWP Nationals and placed.

Sorry...typo...it was the GSP Nationals.

[fuzznut]

JKP- you went to the GSP Nationals in Eureka and rode the braces and watched him run?
Fuzz

[Oscar]

No, with AFTCA philosophy- and I like so much- is the function makes the conformation. Winning dogs then have the word. What they suggest you is what is done in Germany first function after the conformation. I like how we are in AFTCA

This, I believe, is taken out of context.

It has been proven that incorrect conformation(straight fronts,poor angulation,lack of forchest,short upper arm,long/short croups,etc)
does not prohibit a dog from moving,and moving fast. What wins at field trials and the reason for all the conformational changes in some breeds or lack of a standard at all, is b/c in order to move fast and faster conformation needs to be altered and sometimes in order to win at a field trial faster wins. Conformation/correct,sound structure is ignored.
So, to support the above statement,yes, the function of a field trial dog is considered then the conformation is altered,show titles are not sought nor needed or a breed standard is done away with to create a winning dog/breed.

To each their own.

I respect your opinion but my comment is not out of context because breading have largely regulated for endurance field trials as national and is for that poorly formed there a dog would not have many opportunities, then breeding based on field trial results has been successful and the winners conformation is more accurate for function than that which some judges consider the best conformation.

[adogslife]

I agree with you,
conformation to win field trials is different than that breed's standards and for the EP there is no standard.


The Germans set the breed standard, I think in 1902 or there's about, for the DK. Form does follow function, the function for a versatile dog. All working breeds have the same form, they want correct/balanced front/rear,croup,shoulder lay,forechests,etc.

[ezzy333]

I think it should work both ways. Conformation is important but conformation that ruins the original intent of the dog is bad. I think that before you can have a championship on a field bred dog, it should have to have passed some test to show it had no disqualifying faults. The only bad part of that is I think the show people pretty much run the breed clubs. Look at the AKC Setters, Irish, Gordon and English. All the long hair they want to see is not good for the field dog. Look at the Springer Spaniel. And probably the biggest disaster in the dog world, the Cocker Spaniel. The standard used to say no cutting the hair or clipping the ear's hair, but you didn't, you might just as well got home. A good coat can be judged other than by length. At the same time, before a dog can get a show championship, they should prove that the dogs still have the skills looked for in the breed. Maybe to become a show champion, it would need to obtain a MH dregee. I've seen to many trial dogs with faults that would be disqualifying and to many show dogs that couldn't find a hamburger tied to their nose.

This ^^.

The show people run AKC. AKC is a joke. There will never be a requirment for a show dog to be able to HAVE to perform in the field as originally bred to do as long as AKC is around and is ran by the show ring.

I have my own opinion about field trials which if I laid them out here it would turn into a blood bath.

How about all of the trials and hunt test AKC "runs"?

Ezzy

[DonF]

What does it take to last an hour? Conditioning, lots of conditioning. The best put together dog in the country out of shape most likely will not last 30 min much less an hour. Heart is a matter of conditioning. The best dog's learn to pace themselves. They break away at a pace they can maintain for what ever time down. The man that runs an hour brace and only put's his dog down for an hour in training is gonna have his dog falter. The guy running an hour and puts his dog down for two hour training has a dog that will start strong and finish strong, the dog learns to pace itself. Lot of people saying these dogs run on heart, well folks, a heart out of gas slows to a walk and/or collapses in the shade.

[RayGubernat]

Guys -

I think a field dog should pass a conformation test...right after they put in a requirement for conformation dogs of field breeds to pass a field test...and I ain't talkin' no Junior Hunter pass neither. Senior Hunter pass or a Gun dog or AA placement.

We all know that ain' t gonna happen. They might get their hair messed up or "God forbid", pick up a couple of stickers that have to be cut out.

Seriously, field trials and hunt tests are beauty conten\sts also...just a different expression of it. The beauty is beauty in motion, sometimes referred to as "class on the ground".

There really is such a thing as functional conformation. AF pointers setters and more recently AF GSP's have to demonstrate proper conformation through competition, because to secure a placement, the dog has to go through the country. To do that competitively in a manner that is pleasing to the eye, when compared to other examples of the breed, is a pretty effective demonstration of "functional conformation".

The successful field trial performer, especially in the American Field arena, is almost invariably an awesome specimen. The conformation folks might not like some of what they see in such a dog, but the SOB can and will do what the breed was intended to do...ergo, "functional conformation".

I will readily admit that there is some stuff, like undershot jaws and in some breeds, incorrect color(s), which is not subject to functional evaluation. but a lot of that stuff sorts itself out also due to the economics of breeding competitive dogs.

Before someone spends a small fortune putting a champonship on a dog, you had better believe they check their teeth and make sure their coat colors are correct because the only way to recoup any small portion of the cost to title the dog is through breeding and folks won't want to breed to a dog with a wrong color for the breed, or an obvious physical flaw like an undershot jaw.

RayG