Should birddogs be judged/titled based on conformation?

[Stoneface]

I understand hounds, to some extent, are evaluated and judged at hound trials along with the working segment of the event. Should birddogs be evaluated and/or awarded titled based on their conformation? I don't mean the dogs you see handled around a ring at Westminster, but honest to goodness working dogs that get out and hunt regularly, have scars all over and are all muscled up. Should we have an official evaluation of birddogs' form? Even if not competitively, should there be some kind of grading system set up to rate dogs' conformation?

[bb560m]

At vizsla nat'l events you do have to qualify at the line conformationally. Mostly keeps out the vizslas with A LOT of white on them.

Now I think it should be the other way around... To get a show title your bird dog should have to take some type of test that it knows what a bird is. Somewhere along the lines of JH, but maybe minimum qualifying scores.

[Cajun Casey]

Again? :roll:

[topher40]

Rowdy-
Some of the best bird dogs had absolutely NO confirmation, what the heck does is matter? All of your talk of angulation, confirmation, etc means nothing if the dog cant find birds. So who really cares?

[TraditionsGSPs2010]

Rowdy-
Some of the best bird dogs had absolutely NO confirmation, what the heck does is matter? All of your talk of angulation, confirmation, etc means nothing if the dog cant find birds. So who really cares?

The irony of this comment is that the hot topic on the board right now is one discussing lemon/orange GSP's and the fact that they should be pulled from the gene pool. As far as correct build is concerned, C.B. Maxwell said it best, "Some dogs run inspite of themselves." From there, buyer beware.

[Sharon]

Rowdy-
Some of the best bird dogs had absolutely NO confirmation, what the heck does is matter? All of your talk of angulation, confirmation, etc means nothing if the dog cant find birds. So who really cares?

Yes but I think conformation is judged in the "going of the dog". A winner needs good aerobic take up ( broad chest). tight feet ( not splayed) , muscled etc. "The winner will be conformationally sound i believe, even though it isn't judged as a separate entity.

PS In Russell terrier trials the dog with stubby legs or a broad not a narrow body will not be a "winner', as their body will keep them from being successful. Good conformation will speak for it self.

[jimbo&rooster]

I dont understand your question.... Bird dogs are judged on conformation. You have the option to put your bird dog in the ring if that is what blows your skirt up.

I also wonder if you understand how hound competition works...... From the way you post your question it sounds like hounds are required to have bench placements. I have owned and handled several hounds in cluding a few NTCH dogs, and have never put a dog on the bench.

But, to answer your question. No, I dont think bird dogs should be required to be judged in conformation. Especially if the standard they use is even similar to what I see on TV at the "big" dog shows.

Jim

[DogNewbie]

I dont understand your question.... Bird dogs are judged on conformation. You have the option to put your bird dog in the ring if that is what blows your skirt up.

I also wonder if you understand how hound competition works...... From the way you post your question it sounds like hounds are required to have bench placements. I have owned and handled several hounds in cluding a few NTCH dogs, and have never put a dog on the bench.

But, to answer your question. No, I dont think bird dogs should be required to be judged in conformation. Especially if the standard they use is even similar to what I see on TV at the "big" dog shows.

Jim

+1 The german shepard could barely walk its back was so sloped.

[topher40]

Color isnt coformation.

[Cajun Casey]

Color isnt coformation.

Yes it is.

[ezzy333]

Color isnt coformation.

Where do you think it fits?

Ezzy

[bb560m]

Where do you think it fits?

Ezzy

How about vizslas that are all white on their front and obviously bred to pointers... Cull the really bad ones, keep the mildly obscene ones...

[Trekmoor]

I have never seen a viszla with white on it anywhere in Britain , is that common in America ?

I can't see any good reason to do conformation tests on bird dogs or any other gundogs. If someone wants to show a dog , take it to a dog show. The things that have been done to good working breeds in order to have a suitably show fashionable conformation make me sick. If the labs , spaniels, etc. I see at dog shows have good conformation then I don't want it. A dogs working ability happens inside it's head where no judge can measure it except by seeing the dog work.

Bill T.

[KwikIrish]

Trek- small white patches 1-2 inches in diameter are common, even in the show world.

I believe breeders have an obligation to make good moral choices about their breedings. Produce healthy dogs, proper temperaments, cull (neuter/spay) animals with traits such as bad bites, mon orchids, bloats, epileptics, pra, dysplastic animals etc etc etc.

I want to see Brits which look like Brits, gsp which appears 100% GSP, setters who look like a setter and a vizsla which look like that. Regardless of whether one is producing a working dog or otherwise, we have an obligation to our chosen breed's integrity.

After all, any breed mixed with another is simply a mutt... Unless it is somehow sanctioned by the orginization of your choice and that is where this debate gets messy.

Our integrity and charecter are all we really have.

[S&J gsp]

well what you are talking about is not a requirement for field champion in any hound event you can scratch from the show every trail the show is just to qualify for national events

[ohmymy111]

Absolutely they should be. Conformation is how you define a breed. If we don't adhere to it all we have are mutts in the end. That is not to say a mutt can't be a great bird dog and a wonderful companion, but the traits are not reproducable consistantly, which is what having a defined breed is all about.

I also agree a dog in the ring should be judged for it's working ability also, you have to have it both ways, which is why all my dogs compete in the field and the ring.

[bruns333]

That is one good thing about the NAVHDA system, they at least evaluate a few things on the dog like bite, teeth, coat, temperament while being examined. I think it would be good for a basic report on the dog to be part of their record. I also agree that show dogs should have some sort of requirement to prove they are something besides "pretty". If dogs are going to be bred it should be because they are good in many ways, not just one. Maybe at a FT there could be a breeding stock stake that only dogs with certain breeding potential are allowed to compete i.e bites, hips, coat, temperament. Just some thoughts, but could be a good discussion.

Matt

[ezzy333]

Absolutely they should be. Conformation is how you define a breed. If we don't adhere to it all we have are mutts in the end. That is not to say a mutt can't be a great bird dog and a wonderful companion, but the traits are not reproducable consistantly, which is what having a defined breed is all about.

I also agree a dog in the ring should be judged for it's working ability also, you have to have it both ways, which is why all my dogs compete in the field and the ring.

Glad someone gets it right. We all are concerned about conformation but some just don't realize it and some just want to pick the part they agree with, but without a standard you have no idea what you have or where you are going.

Ezzy

[nikegundog]

Absolutely they should be. Conformation is how you define a breed. If we don't adhere to it all we have are mutts in the end. That is not to say a mutt can't be a great bird dog and a wonderful companion, but the traits are not reproducable consistantly, which is what having a defined breed is all about.

I also agree a dog in the ring should be judged for it's working ability also, you have to have it both ways, which is why all my dogs compete in the field and the ring.

Glad someone gets it right. We all are concerned about conformation but some just don't realize it and some just want to pick the part they agree with, but without a standard you have no idea what you have or where you are going.

Ezzy

Just interested to know who should set or change the standards, would that be the breed club?

[Ms. Cage]

ezzy333 wrote:ohmymy111 wrote:Absolutely they should be. Conformation is how you define a breed. If we don't adhere to it all we have are mutts in the end. That is not to say a mutt can't be a great bird dog and a wonderful companion, but the traits are not reproducable consistantly, which is what having a defined breed is all about.I also agree a dog in the ring should be judged for it's working ability also, you have to have it both ways, which is why all my dogs compete in the field and the ring. Glad someone gets it right. We all are concerned about conformation but some just don't realize it and some just want to pick the part they agree with, but without a standard you have no idea what you have or where you are going.Ezzy

I agree, that's why we use the INT show ring.

[ohmymy111]

It is the parent breed club that sets the standards and can change them. It doesn't happen very often, but it does happen.

We went to AKC to try and get Epagneul Breton's split from from "Brittany's" and recognized as a distincy breed. They referred it to the "American Brittany Club", as the ones to make that decision. Akc, UKC are simply registries and leave the decisions to the parent clubs, who should be able to make the best decisions for their particular breed. That is the way it should be. Akc and UKC do not have the knowledge to be doing that for every breed.

[JKP]

Some of the best bird dogs had absolutely NO confirmation, what the heck does is matter? All of your talk of angulation, confirmation, etc means nothing if the dog cant find birds. So who really cares?

Conformation is about the "look" of a dog. Looks is the only thing that separates breeds in many cases. if you want to do away with conformation, you are basically arguing to do away with breeds.

[nikegundog]

It is the parent breed club that sets the standards and can change them. It doesn't happen very often, but it does happen.

We went to AKC to try and get Epagneul Breton's split from from "Brittany's" and recognized as a distincy breed. They referred it to the "American Brittany Club", as the ones to make that decision. Akc, UKC are simply registries and leave the decisions to the parent clubs, who should be able to make the best decisions for their particular breed. That is the way it should be. Akc and UKC do not have the knowledge to be doing that for every breed.

So if breed club came out and condemned a pratice (for example) of breeding a orange/lemon/and white GSHs would it be unethical to do so?

[KwikIrish]

It is the parent breed club that sets the standards and can change them. It doesn't happen very often, but it does happen.

We went to AKC to try and get Epagneul Breton's split from from "Brittany's" and recognized as a distincy breed. They referred it to the "American Brittany Club", as the ones to make that decision. Akc, UKC are simply registries and leave the decisions to the parent clubs, who should be able to make the best decisions for their particular breed. That is the way it should be. Akc and UKC do not have the knowledge to be doing that for every breed.

So if breed club came out and condemned a pratice (for example) of breeding a orange/lemon/and white GSHs would it be unethical to do so?

Do you mean unethical to breed them if the parent club condemned it? Yes, if you are a member of the parent club you are supposed to uphold their standard.

[nikegundog]

It is the parent breed club that sets the standards and can change them. It doesn't happen very often, but it does happen.

We went to AKC to try and get Epagneul Breton's split from from "Brittany's" and recognized as a distincy breed. They referred it to the "American Brittany Club", as the ones to make that decision. Akc, UKC are simply registries and leave the decisions to the parent clubs, who should be able to make the best decisions for their particular breed. That is the way it should be. Akc and UKC do not have the knowledge to be doing that for every breed.

So if breed club came out and condemned a pratice (for example) of breeding a orange/lemon/and white GSHs would it be unethical to do so?

Do you mean unethical to breed them if the parent club condemned it? Yes, if you are a member of the parent club you are supposed to uphold their standard.

I guess I mean not just a member, just an dog owner? The Labrador Retriever club, condemns the breeding of Silver Labs, with that being the case what do you feel about the breeding of these dogs? Just interested to know.

[Cajun Casey]

When you can take a picture of the National Champion (talking the big show at Ames) from each of the past thirty years and basically superimpose those shots one over the other with less than 10% variance, I'd say there is no need for a conformation class. Too many people confuse health and soundness with competition Conformation. Play your game, play it by its rules and quit trying to sow dissent.

[ohmymy111]

I am not in a position to comment on GSP's or Lab's, as they are not my chosen breed.

That being said, we have a color pattern issue in Epagneul Bretons as well. It is called "sable". It is a coat that has black hairs intermixed in the orange hairs where they should not exist. It is caused by the Ay or "Agouti" gene. It is not a pattern that is native to pointing breeds, or to any of the gun breeds as I recall.

In France, the home of my breed, they can no longer be registered. It is easy for them to do so, as a dog recieves an "LOF" number at birth, but has to go in front of a "Comfirmateur" in order to receive registration papers.

I have a dog that is a carrier of the gene. I have chosen to breed her as she has A LOT of other good attributes. Her last litter, she produced a sable puppy. So then I had a decision to make, and I culled her from the breeding pool. How did I do that? I am selling her to a family at a reduced price, and she will limited registration in AKC, hence if she were to have puppies they could not be registered. She will NOT be registered UKC, as they have no such restriction in their registeration. Tha family is aware of all of this.

To me, that was the ethical thing to do. I informed them of her issue, which affects nothing but coat, and told them she was not to be bred. I told of her breeding restrictions in AKC, and that she would not be registered UKC. They planned from the start to have her spayed anyway, and they will get a great addition to their family. I could have culled her in the traditional sense, but to ME that is unethical. I was the one that allowed her to come into this world, and allowed the possibility for her to be the way she is, none of it was of her doing. It is my reponsibilty to see she gets to enjoy life the way I feel all dogs should, and have a family that will love her, and that is what I did!

[slistoe]

Pretty is as pretty does.
Isn't that the saying?

[Winchey]

No I don't think they should. AF trials made the Setters I like without any breed standard. The setters look like setters, the pointers look like pointers and I prefer the way they look compared to their show counterparts.

If someone wants to show only I am cool with that too. Just don't call it a bird dog unless it actually is.

[dan v]

Conformation is about the "look" of a dog. Looks is the only thing that separates breeds in many cases. if you want to do away with conformation, you are basically arguing to do away with breeds.

How does that explain that for over 100 years, without a written breed standard, AF Pointers and AF English setters still look like Pointers and English Setters?

[ezzy333]

I am not in a position to comment on GSP's or Lab's, as they are not my chosen breed.

That being said, we have a color pattern issue in Epagneul Bretons as well. It is called "sable". It is a coat that has black hairs intermixed in the orange hairs where they should not exist. It is caused by the Ay or "Agouti" gene. It is not a pattern that is native to pointing breeds, or to any of the gun breeds as I recall.

In France, the home of my breed, they can no longer be registered. It is easy for them to do so, as a dog recieves an "LOF" number at birth, but has to go in front of a "Comfirmateur" in order to receive registration papers.

I have a dog that is a carrier of the gene. I have chosen to breed her as she has A LOT of other good attributes. Her last litter, she produced a sable puppy. So then I had a decision to make, and I culled her from the breeding pool. How did I do that? I am selling her to a family at a reduced price, and she will limited registration in AKC, hence if she were to have puppies they could not be registered. She will NOT be registered UKC, as they have no such restriction in their registeration. Tha family is aware of all of this.

To me, that was the ethical thing to do. I informed them of her issue, which affects nothing but coat, and told them she was not to be bred. I told of her breeding restrictions in AKC, and that she would not be registered UKC. They planned from the start to have her spayed anyway, and they will get a great addition to their family. I could have culled her in the traditional sense, but to ME that is unethical. I was the one that allowed her to come into this world, and allowed the possibility for her to be the way she is, none of it was of her doing. It is my reponsibilty to see she gets to enjoy life the way I feel all dogs should, and have a family that will love her, and that is what I did!

You did it right. If we could get everyone to do what is right we would eliminate many of the problems we continue to have crop up.

Ezzy

[chiendog]

This is a very interesting thread that I hope doesn't go sideways.

Anywho, as far as judging conformation in field bred dogs, it happens. In all breeds. All the time. The only difference is whether or not it is an official judgment or an unofficial/unwritten judgment. Let me explain.

There are a number of systems/registries that require an official judgment of conformation for all dogs. German v-dog clubs for example require all breeding stock to be officially evaluated by a team of judges for conformation (size, coat, color, bite etc. etc.). In France, in order for a dog to be fully registered, it has to be evaluated by a judge when it is about a year old and 'confirmed'. That means when you breed a litter of pups, say a litter of GSPs from the top field trial sire and dame in the breed, you put a preliminary registration on the pups and then, when they are about a year old, a judge has a look at them and 'confirm' that they do indeed look like GSPs. If they look like they are supposed to look (size, color, coat), they get full registration. If they don't look like they are supposed to, they don't get full registration. Each year, something like 1/3 of pups whelped in some breeds don't get confirmed. Mostly it is because their owners/breeders don't bother to take the confirmation step (because they don't want/need full registration) but there are always some that simply don't pass the sniff test...for whatever reason and the judge cannot/will not confirm them.

In North America, as mentioned, the Vizsla club has a qualify on the line system. Basically a judge has to look at the dogs entered in the national field trial and confirm that yup, they look like Vizslas. I am sure there are other systems in other registries, but you get the idea. Some systems have an official way of evaluating conformation. Some, like the German system go into great detail, others, like the French way are pretty basic and some are in between.

So, what about the other systems/registries/breeds that have no official requirement? Well, there are unofficial requirements that are adhered to by those who want to compete/win. We all know how important a 12 oclock tail is now for certain breeds in certain forms of competition. But there is no official requirement for it. But it is obvious that there exists an unofficial, unwritten agreement within that community that has led to twelve oclock tails across the breed. And you could even argue that it goes beyond the tail. I mean, there is no official requirement for a Pointer to have a short coat or a setter to have a long one or for either to have long tails. Yet the vast majority have the 'right' coat for their breed and they all have long tails despite the fact that there may be the occasional pointer born with a long coat or a setter with a short one, or either breed producing a dog with a naturally short tail or even the occasional breeder who would like to crop the tails of his dogs.

I am sure there are these sort of unwritten conformation requirements in other breeds as well..even those with very detailed written requirements and official examinations. For example, it seems to me that the twelve oclock tail is now nearly as important in some of the continental breeds as it is in Pointers and Setters. Just take a look at any photo of the winning dogs and their handlers at any national field trial nowadays. They are all posed with their hands on the dog's tail pushing it skyward...even on Brittanies, for whatever reason, we want to see a twelve oclock stub.

Finally, I would point out that this very discussion is part of the unofficial system of evaluating/maintaining conformation. It is an offshoot of a thread started by a fellow with lemon GSPs. The resistance he is getting in some of the replies is a form of enforcement of a standard. The calm reasoning, good natured coaxing and a bit of snark/derision...even insults, are all aimed at influencing a breeder's decisions. And they have exactly zero to do with performance and are all about conformation.

[fuzznut]

Breeding for the Dual Champion has been my goal since I started in my chosen breed over 30 yrs ago. I've done well, produced multiple Duals, Specialty winners as well as National Field Champions. One dog was a top ten show and Gun dog in the same year.

I would never agree or vote for a dog having to have any show title before it could get a field title. The dogs must be appreciated for what it brings to the table, and it must be up to the breeder to figure out what dogs bring what. If a dog had a DQ fault, I would want to watch it run, to work. I want to be able to figure out if I can breed out that DQ, and many times you can. I may never use that dog, but I still can appreciate it.

I appreciate the NAVHDA approach of reporting the dogs faults, it's there for you to know about and make your own decision. But each dog should be awarded for what it is.... an ugly but otherwise outstanding working dog.... still brings good things to the gene pool.

Too many breeders (IMO) refuse to look past faults end up breeding nice dogs, but not great dogs. It's safe.... but doesn't help the breed move forward.

[cjuve]

Conformation is about the "look" of a dog. Looks is the only thing that separates breeds in many cases. if you want to do away with conformation, you are basically arguing to do away with breeds.

How does that explain that for over 100 years, without a written breed standard, AF Pointers and AF English setters still look like Pointers and English Setters?

That is like the age old question, the chicken or the egg? Performance people won't the little blue hairs dictate what they should and should not breed and what is proper for the breed.

[KwikIrish]

Conformation is about the "look" of a dog. Looks is the only thing that separates breeds in many cases. if you want to do away with conformation, you are basically arguing to do away with breeds.

How does that explain that for over 100 years, without a written breed standard, AF Pointers and AF English setters still look like Pointers and English Setters?

It's easy, if they had fringe, the wrote in setter. No fringe, pointer.

[jcbuttry8]

I am not in a position to comment on GSP's or Lab's, as they are not my chosen breed.

That being said, we have a color pattern issue in Epagneul Bretons as well. It is called "sable". It is a coat that has black hairs intermixed in the orange hairs where they should not exist. It is caused by the Ay or "Agouti" gene. It is not a pattern that is native to pointing breeds, or to any of the gun breeds as I recall.

In France, the home of my breed, they can no longer be registered. It is easy for them to do so, as a dog recieves an "LOF" number at birth, but has to go in front of a "Comfirmateur" in order to receive registration papers.

I have a dog that is a carrier of the gene. I have chosen to breed her as she has A LOT of other good attributes. Her last litter, she produced a sable puppy. So then I had a decision to make, and I culled her from the breeding pool. How did I do that? I am selling her to a family at a reduced price, and she will limited registration in AKC, hence if she were to have puppies they could not be registered. She will NOT be registered UKC, as they have no such restriction in their registeration. Tha family is aware of all of this.

To me, that was the ethical thing to do. I informed them of her issue, which affects nothing but coat, and told them she was not to be bred. I told of her breeding restrictions in AKC, and that she would not be registered UKC. They planned from the start to have her spayed anyway, and they will get a great addition to their family. I could have culled her in the traditional sense, but to ME that is unethical. I was the one that allowed her to come into this world, and allowed the possibility for her to be the way she is, none of it was of her doing. It is my reponsibilty to see she gets to enjoy life the way I feel all dogs should, and have a family that will love her, and that is what I did!

So with all that is going on between this thread and the orange/lemon thread, just thought I would ask.

You said that you knew that your female was a carrier of a trait that you knew could produce a sable pup. You bred her and got a sable pup. You culled it but you still produced a litter that could produce sable pups in the future. Did you let every new owner know that they carry that trait? Did you feel that now knowing she threw that pup, you should cut her from the breeding stock? I am only asking because in the other thread the guy was told to spay his dam due to the fact that she threw off colored pups. Just curious what the difference is between these two issues. Is the sable color not as big of an issue?

Please know I mean no disrespect and I am not calling you out. It's just alot of talk about how he should fix all the dogs over a color issue and a possible trait issue and there could be some asking the same question I am, but won't say it out loud. Just trying to figure out the difference in these issues.

Joe

[JKP]

Too many breeders (IMO) refuse to look past faults end up breeding nice dogs, but not great dogs. It's safe.... but doesn't help the breed move forward.

Fuzz,
You and I have always disagreed a bit on this one. When you breed DQs, you can also perpetuate them. Very few breeders are willing (or able) to truly cull through enough generations to be able to say they have bred out the DQ.

Unless a breed is very sparse, there is rarely a need to go to the DQ dog. The choice to do that is almost always an emotional one....IMO.

I would say we probably all put temperament, working ability and functional conformation among the top priorities. Show pretty is nice but doesn't really enhance the ability of the dog over a soundly built, good moving dog.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

No, Unless the show people will incorporate field performance with their show dogs. Seem fair?

[Stoneface]

When I asked if dogs should be judged/titled based on conformation, shows like the AKC and Westminster shows you see on TV is the last thing I meant. What I'm refering to is the dogs being evaluated more for form, pracitcal form. Chest, straightness of limbs, tail set, bite, to make sure there isn't a second head growing out of the dog's neck. At the very least, things of utility that all birddogs need to have in order perform their job optimally.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

When I asked if dogs should be judged/titled based on conformation, shows like the AKC and Westminster shows you see on TV is the last thing I meant. What I'm refering to is the dogs being evaluated more for form, pracitcal form. Chest, straightness of limbs, tail set, bite, to make sure there isn't a second head growing out of the dog's neck. At the very least, things of utility that all birddogs need to have in order perform their job optimally.

I think that without making conformation a judging criteria and all things being equal most judges will put up the better looking dog. But it is very subjective.

[Cajun Casey]

When I asked if dogs should be judged/titled based on conformation, shows like the AKC and Westminster shows you see on TV is the last thing I meant. What I'm refering to is the dogs being evaluated more for form, pracitcal form. Chest, straightness of limbs, tail set, bite, to make sure there isn't a second head growing out of the dog's neck. At the very least, things of utility that all birddogs need to have in order perform their job optimally.

You are asking if we want field trial dogs judged on subjective cosmetics. No.

[brad27]

When I asked if dogs should be judged/titled based on conformation, shows like the AKC and Westminster shows you see on TV is the last thing I meant. What I'm refering to is the dogs being evaluated more for form, pracitcal form. Chest, straightness of limbs, tail set, bite, to make sure there isn't a second head growing out of the dog's neck. At the very least, things of utility that all birddogs need to have in order perform their job optimally.

You are asking if we want field trial dogs judged on subjective cosmetics. No.

+1

[brad27]

When I asked if dogs should be judged/titled based on conformation, shows like the AKC and Westminster shows you see on TV is the last thing I meant. What I'm refering to is the dogs being evaluated more for form, pracitcal form. Chest, straightness of limbs, tail set, bite, to make sure there isn't a second head growing out of the dog's neck. At the very least, things of utility that all birddogs need to have in order perform their job optimally.

The ones that perform their jobs optimally ARE put together right.

[chiendog]

You are asking if we want field trial dogs judged on subjective cosmetics. No.

I agree that field trial dogs should be judged on performance only. And I think that if a dogs shows it is capable of doing the job at the highest level, in field trial competition, then that is all the proof you need to know that it is built right. Period.)

But let's face it, certain subjective cosmetics of field trial dogs are judged, at least to a certain degree. For example, I don't think we will ever see a dog win Ames if it points with a level tail, a purely a cosmetic thing. And let's not forget that judges are human. No matter how hard they try to be completely objective, personal tastes in things like color, coat type and overall shape probably play a role in their final judgements, even if they don't realize it.

The only system that I can think of that comes close to judging nothing but performance is Iditirod-type sled-dog racing. It is open to any look, any size, any breed or any mix of breeds. Judges and participants just say "bring em on" and the best performers take the prize, no matter what they look like. Field trials are more complicated of course, they are not about beating the stop watch so can never be 100% objective. Judges have to go with their gut on a lot of things, and their gut cannot help but be influenced, at least a bit, by what a dog looks like.

[gotpointers]

Rowdy-
Some of the best bird dogs had absolutely NO confirmation, what the heck does is matter? All of your talk of angulation, confirmation, etc means nothing if the dog cant find birds. So who really cares?

+1

[gotpointers]

When you can take a picture of the National Champion (talking the big show at Ames) from each of the past thirty years and basically superimpose those shots one over the other with less than 10% variance, I'd say there is no need for a conformation class. Too many people confuse health and soundness with competition Conformation. Play your game, play it by its rules and quit trying to sow dissent.

+1


They did this for over 100 years without the assistance of a breed warden, parent club or any other nonsense. And still manage to find birds and run with style.

[ohmymy111]

All the people that have puppies from that particular female are aware that she is a carrier. I informed them several years after the fact, as sable was not an issue when the puppies were produced, and there was no genetic test at that time. But I still felt it was my duty to do so. Yes, I do DNA testing on ALL my dogs. Well that's not quite true as I have dogs that were produced from parents that were tested, and tested negative, so no DNA test was required.

[jcbuttry8]

All the people that have puppies from that particular female are aware that she is a carrier. I informed them several years after the fact, as sable was not an issue when the puppies were produced, and there was no genetic test at that time. But I still felt it was my duty to do so. Yes, I do DNA testing on ALL my dogs. Well that's not quite true as I have dogs that were produced from parents that were tested, and tested negative, so no DNA test was required.

Thank you for your answer, and your honesty.

Joe

[JKP]

All the people that have puppies from that particular female are aware that she is a carrier. I informed them several years after the fact, as sable was not an issue when the puppies were produced, and there was no genetic test at that time. But I still felt it was my duty to do so. Yes, I do DNA testing on ALL my dogs. Well that's not quite true as I have dogs that were produced from parents that were tested, and tested negative, so no DNA test was required.

+1!!! Imagine when all breeders were so forthcoming.

Years back a DD breeder in the midwest bred a von Willebrands carrier to a normal stud dog...tested all the puppies...kept two for the program and then sold the rest to non-breeders, informing them of the carrier status of some pups and paying for the sterilization when the dogs were old enough.

Unless a dog has a really glaring DQ....real breeders don't throw great dogs out the window because of faults. Just be prepared for the "sniping" competition to talk you down.

[adogslife]

Those wanting a conformation rating along with a performance evaluation gravitate towards the JGHV testing system.