Your breeding strategy
- Stoneface
- Rank: 5X Champion
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Your breeding strategy
For you breeders out there, what is your strategy for achieving whatever your goals are and how did you come to that strategy? In other words, do you just take a good dog and breed it to the best dog you can find, do you try to match males and females that compliment each other and compensate for each other, do you track heterozygosity and homozygosity and consider phenotype and genotype? Why is that your strategy? I mean, do you use just your common sense, do you work a strategy you've formed after devouring countless books or did you learn from a father or grandfather?
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"I have found it far more pleasuable pursuing the game with a fine dog and enjoying his performance than the actual shooting." -Robert G. Wehle
www.StonefaceKennels.com
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"I have found it far more pleasuable pursuing the game with a fine dog and enjoying his performance than the actual shooting." -Robert G. Wehle
- Stoneface
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Re: Your breeding strategy
I've never bred a litter, but have done a share of studying on genetics to get ready for when I do start breeding. It seems, to my inexperienced eye, that about 98% of people who ever breed have no business in it. They have no long-term plan, no real startegy besides breeding the best bitch they can get their hands on to the best stud they can find or to the stud that makes their hair stand on end or gives them goosebumps. It kinda seems obvious that there are a few names that just always rise to the top of the mix and do it consistently - Grouse Ridge, Long Gone, Elhew, Miller. There is one or a few names in every breed that maintains a place at the top of the game while the rest struggle to maintain mediocracy with the exceptional star. But, still, breeders never do anything to vary or improve their breeding program besides trying to breed to dogs that are considered generally "better." Do most people really think those Grouse Ridges and Millers out there really happen by chance?
www.PoetryShootingClub.com
www.StonefaceKennels.com
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"I have found it far more pleasuable pursuing the game with a fine dog and enjoying his performance than the actual shooting." -Robert G. Wehle
www.StonefaceKennels.com
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"I have found it far more pleasuable pursuing the game with a fine dog and enjoying his performance than the actual shooting." -Robert G. Wehle
- Gordon Guy
- Rank: 4X Champion
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Re: Your breeding strategy
Stoneface wrote:I've never bred a litter, but have done a share of studying on genetics to get ready for when I do start breeding. It seems, to my inexperienced eye, that about 98% of people who ever breed have no business in it.
Isn't this a great country or what!
Seriously now, they / we all had to start somewhere, and I bet in the beginning the breeders that you hold in high regards weren't "The Best". What criteria are you using to determine them the best? Retorical...
Everyone has a differing definition of what "The best" is, whether that be canine charaterists or who the best breeders are. Which makes things diffcult to discuss so I'll have to stick general definitions.
I can only speak for myself - My goal is to breed dogs that are healthy, early starting (compared to other Gordons) , lots of point (Compared to other Gordons), good house/companion dogs (Compared to other breeds) with lots of drive and high style (Compared to other Gordons). The dogs that I use for breeding have to exhibit these traits. Again each definition of the above bolded terms are different for everyone.
I go through a lot of dogs before I find dogs that I want to breed.
Edited with the following
Added - I want to breed what I like - I hunt Huns mostly and I like dogs to hunt independently out to 4 to 500 yards +/- while keeping track of me and a dog with a lot of point that points birds from a good distance if necessary.
Last edited by Gordon Guy on Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tom
- gotpointers
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Re: Your breeding strategy
Breed what pleases your eye. It's not a job that's a real moneymaker so you better enjoy what you produce. You may just end up keeping it wether you choose to or not.
Re: Your breeding strategy
I like my dogs tight linebred.
Kresha's Gator of Troy
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I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." Thomas Jefferson
- ohmymy111
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Re: Your breeding strategy
I have a book, more of a pamplet really, called "New Guide to breeding Old Fashioned Working Dogs". It has several breeding stratigies, and I picked one and follow it within reason. I think you have to look at pedigrees, and I have software to do that, look at the individual dogs and their conformation, and how they hunt. I think competition will tell you a lot about the dogs as well.
I breed for things that complement and strengthen, with an eye towards improving things that could be better also.
I think the most important thing is you have to have a goal you want to achieve, and breed towards that. Without a clear idea of what you are after you are just using the shotgun approach and hoping you will hit something good.
At the end of the day, there are too many varibles to guarantee you will produce what you are after. But with a clear idea of what you want, a critical eye towards what can be strengthened and improved, and a knowledge of where the dogs came from, you have a good chance of achieving what you are after.
I breed for things that complement and strengthen, with an eye towards improving things that could be better also.
I think the most important thing is you have to have a goal you want to achieve, and breed towards that. Without a clear idea of what you are after you are just using the shotgun approach and hoping you will hit something good.
At the end of the day, there are too many varibles to guarantee you will produce what you are after. But with a clear idea of what you want, a critical eye towards what can be strengthened and improved, and a knowledge of where the dogs came from, you have a good chance of achieving what you are after.
Mark Dinsmore
Proud owner of
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CH Ardoise des Deux Pierres Bleue TAN 14 years together and it was not long enough
TR Jabo de El Matochar CH -CS -IB
CHF CH Darius de L'Eoile du Nord TAN
CH E'toile du Mas D'Pataula TAN
L'Etoile du Ten Bar Ranch
Messi de L'Etoile du Nord
Meg de Sugar Creek
Orion de L'Etoile du Nord
Persese de L'Etoile du Nord
http://www.ebretons.com
Proud owner of
GrCHF GRCH Vernon de L'Escarbot AKC MH Rest up my boy, until I meet up to hunt with you again
CH Ardoise des Deux Pierres Bleue TAN 14 years together and it was not long enough
TR Jabo de El Matochar CH -CS -IB
CHF CH Darius de L'Eoile du Nord TAN
CH E'toile du Mas D'Pataula TAN
L'Etoile du Ten Bar Ranch
Messi de L'Etoile du Nord
Meg de Sugar Creek
Orion de L'Etoile du Nord
Persese de L'Etoile du Nord
http://www.ebretons.com
Re: Your breeding strategy
I think it is a good question although quite complex. My breeding strategy is to improve health and field performance so that requires a number of priorities that are too long to list in detail but they can be summarized in a broad semblance of order:
1. Screening to avoid weak orthopedic structure, disease and neurological history
2. Field desire (personally observed or measured in competition)
3. Intensity on birds (This is seen in the point and something I think needs attention in Brittanys though it is often a product of training)
4. Conformation ( While breed standards play a role I can look past REASONABLE size differences most of my decision is made in observation of gait and stamina)
5. Temperament
6. Color
To achieve the measured results called for in the strategy; tactics are employed homozygosity and heterozygosity both playing critical roles. The dangers in homozygosity thought of first and foremost are health related when recessive genes get matched and enhance something bad, this is over simplified but eventually if you linebreed or inbreed enough the recessive genes will match up due to the math. The real issue with linebreeding is when breeders overlook weaknesses unrelated to health such as temperament or ground application....or as I stated above intensity. However, when you are getting the right qualities the same math works in your favor.
If we accept that eventually we need an outcross to avoid a captive gene pool heterozygosity is employed and should be with the idea that we look for similar positive traits and hopefully find an outcross to fix a hole or two that we objectively identify. In my breeding, I have reached a point that to improve or enhance the lines I have; my next brood female will be a pup i buy from someone else, everything I have is getting pretty close ... I just cant house enough dogs. However when i find the pedigree I want and I see the performance traits i want to enhance, I will invest in a brood bitch to keep moving forward. .
1. Screening to avoid weak orthopedic structure, disease and neurological history
2. Field desire (personally observed or measured in competition)
3. Intensity on birds (This is seen in the point and something I think needs attention in Brittanys though it is often a product of training)
4. Conformation ( While breed standards play a role I can look past REASONABLE size differences most of my decision is made in observation of gait and stamina)
5. Temperament
6. Color
To achieve the measured results called for in the strategy; tactics are employed homozygosity and heterozygosity both playing critical roles. The dangers in homozygosity thought of first and foremost are health related when recessive genes get matched and enhance something bad, this is over simplified but eventually if you linebreed or inbreed enough the recessive genes will match up due to the math. The real issue with linebreeding is when breeders overlook weaknesses unrelated to health such as temperament or ground application....or as I stated above intensity. However, when you are getting the right qualities the same math works in your favor.
If we accept that eventually we need an outcross to avoid a captive gene pool heterozygosity is employed and should be with the idea that we look for similar positive traits and hopefully find an outcross to fix a hole or two that we objectively identify. In my breeding, I have reached a point that to improve or enhance the lines I have; my next brood female will be a pup i buy from someone else, everything I have is getting pretty close ... I just cant house enough dogs. However when i find the pedigree I want and I see the performance traits i want to enhance, I will invest in a brood bitch to keep moving forward. .
- Stoneface
- Rank: 5X Champion
- Posts: 1050
- Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:33 pm
- Location: Terrell/Quinlan, Texas
Re: Your breeding strategy
I hear this a lot, about outcrossing to restore vigor in a line, but that doesn't seem to make sense. For example, if you have the "perfect" male and female specimens, both having the same exact gene make-up, being 100% homozygous and none of the traits are homozygous-negative. If you were to breed two identical, "perfect" dogs you would end up with carbon copies of the sire and dam and there would be zero variation and there would never be any need to outcross. It seems that the only reason to EVER outcross would be to bring in some trait that your pool of genes lacks, since the only thing a "line" of dogs really is, is an isolation of genes.If we accept that eventually we need an outcross to avoid a captive gene pool
Does this make sense to you experienced breeders out there or am I missing something? I never understood why everyone says - even Wehle - that you need to outcross at least occassionally.
www.PoetryShootingClub.com
www.StonefaceKennels.com
----------
"I have found it far more pleasuable pursuing the game with a fine dog and enjoying his performance than the actual shooting." -Robert G. Wehle
www.StonefaceKennels.com
----------
"I have found it far more pleasuable pursuing the game with a fine dog and enjoying his performance than the actual shooting." -Robert G. Wehle
Re: Your breeding strategy
Because there is no perfect dog!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ezzy
Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207
It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!
Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207
It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!
Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.
Re: Your breeding strategy
There are a few problems that can occur from a lot of years of tight inbreeding and would probably be true for "perfect" specimen breeding. One is diminished size, and two is decreased immune system. That's just what I've read from some real good articles by very experienced breeders. That's besides the fact that there are no "perfect" dogs. You would have to breed brother to sister to have 0% variation. However, even if you did find a perfect brother/sister match I'd bet the pups would all be different to some degree.
I prefer tight line breeding and understand as well as appreciated, culling.
Steve
I prefer tight line breeding and understand as well as appreciated, culling.
Steve
Re: Your breeding strategy
the answer is truly perfection is not achievable...all animals carry recessive genes...auto deficiency ..something that escapes me...and you eventually breed those pairings to likely and I guess inevitable if you don't mix up the ingredient
Re: Your breeding strategy
I was going to comment but I'll keep my mouth shut.
- Cajun Casey
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Re: Your breeding strategy
Oh, man......CHJIII wrote:I was going to comment but I'll keep my mouth shut.
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Re: Your breeding strategy
If I understand cloning, maybe that would be possible. Where do you get these two genetically perfect dogs. you can't breed identical genetic makeup nor 100% homozygous. I read somewhere if you bred brothers to sisters for 17 generations they would be clones. Don't know if that is true but I think Lethals would kill off the whole thing before you got that far. Plus it would take 70 to 100 years. You got time, try it. Do you have the heart and resources to cull the puppies which you don't like. Good luck CjStoneface wrote:I hear this a lot, about outcrossing to restore vigor in a line, but that doesn't seem to make sense. For example, if you have the "perfect" male and female specimens, both having the same exact gene make-up, being 100% homozygous and none of the traits are homozygous-negative. If you were to breed two identical, "perfect" dogs you would end up with carbon copies of the sire and dam and there would be zero variation and there would never be any need to outcross. It seems that the only reason to EVER outcross would be to bring in some trait that your pool of genes lacks, since the only thing a "line" of dogs really is, is an isolation of genes.If we accept that eventually we need an outcross to avoid a captive gene pool
Does this make sense to you experienced breeders out there or am I missing something? I never understood why everyone says - even Wehle - that you need to outcross at least occassionally.
Re: Your breeding strategy
That is my way. Works every time. Never sold a pup the buyer didn't like. Used to think I could change the world. I can't. Thanks CjWyndancer wrote:Ready to Handy......
- tfbirddog2
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Re: Your breeding strategy
i have bred my dogs with temperment in mind, due to if I think the dog is worth breeding to another their hunting style must be what is catching the eye of the beholder( myself). I like the houndish, very loyal laid back family dog that is all business and desire in the field! So far so good!!!
" Everyone makes fun of a redneck till their car breaks down"Larry the Cable Guy
Re: Your breeding strategy
One of the great outcross that comes to mind is FC AFC Beier's Evolution to FC Ace Prima BananeStoneface wrote:I hear this a lot, about outcrossing to restore vigor in a line, but that doesn't seem to make sense. For example, if you have the "perfect" male and female specimens, both having the same exact gene make-up, being 100% homozygous and none of the traits are homozygous-negative. If you were to breed two identical, "perfect" dogs you would end up with carbon copies of the sire and dam and there would be zero variation and there would never be any need to outcross. It seems that the only reason to EVER outcross would be to bring in some trait that your pool of genes lacks, since the only thing a "line" of dogs really is, is an isolation of genes.If we accept that eventually we need an outcross to avoid a captive gene pool
Does this make sense to you experienced breeders out there or am I missing something? I never understood why everyone says - even Wehle - that you need to outcross at least occassionally.
Kresha's Gator of Troy
TK'S OILDALE RUNNER
Get Your Free Pedigree Today!
I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." Thomas Jefferson
Re: Your breeding strategy
Ferrell Miller told me 20 years ago that he simply bred his dog to the best dog he had the means everytime, i'm no expert but he did OK
Fester
Fester
- ACooper
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Re: Your breeding strategy
Ferrell looked at a lot of dogs, I would trust his idea of best more than most.Fester wrote:Ferrell Miller told me 20 years ago that he simply bred his dog to the best dog he had the means everytime, i'm no expert but he did OK
Fester
- Cajun Casey
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Re: Your breeding strategy
Ready with Handy works for me.
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.