Could a German shorthaired pointer make it to Ames?

[bb560m]

How many Britts do they allow in the GSP trials? They did not invite any to the invitational.

Ezzy

I have no problem if it's an invitational with the top XYZ of the breed or national event (NFC, etc.). Weekend trials are another issue.

[Cajun Casey]

This will make a few happy im sure. The lack of knowledge on this forum is unreal. Lack of knowledge isn't a bad thing, but when the lack of knowledge doesn't understand that they have a lack of said knowledge, thats when I can't handle it. I will no longer be posting on this board. Good luck to all of you with your dogs no matter what the goal is.

Christmas is the season of miracles.

[slistoe]

This will make a few happy im sure. The lack of knowledge on this forum is unreal. Lack of knowledge isn't a bad thing, but when the lack of knowledge doesn't understand that they have a lack of said knowledge, thats when I can't handle it. I will no longer be posting on this board. Good luck to all of you with your dogs no matter what the goal is.

Christmas is the season of miracles.

And you are still here?
It is disappointing when anyone feels they should no longer participate on the board - it takes something from the collective knowledge of us all.

[bb560m]

It specifically says right on Ames website, English Pointers/English Setters not all pointing breeds.

I don't think it says those breeds only, just that those are who compete. I think if a GSP qualified by winning at the necessary trials they would let it run, it just hasn't happened.

[TAK]

Well gosh didn't mean for everyone to get mad and pack up the marbles... Just thinking out loud is all... But I hope that one day a person can take a GSP to a Ames trial and if so wins, really gets awarded the win. Fact is I hope the Ol Doc gives it a go sometime. But he is a dr. and they tend to be smart every so often and I am sure he can read the writing on the wall....

[DGFavor]

It specifically says right on Ames website, English Pointers/English Setters not all pointing breeds.

I don't think it says those breeds only, just that those are who compete. I think if a GSP qualified by winning at the necessary trials they would let it run, it just hasn't happened.

I imagine if one ever qualified it would probably run more as an exhibition, like daily at lunchtime it could lumber across the lawn, sight point a chicken then take it down...

[DGFavor]

Fact is I hope the Ol Doc gives it a go sometime.

Does noone read what get's posted in these things?? I have given it a go!! My dog has had good outings, nothing to be ashamed of, far from coming in last place. Bugs had a fantastic go at the Pacific Coast last year, hugest find of the stake on a pair of huns - we just got beat. We'll try again this year!! I know there are better stubbies out there, it'd be nice if they got a chance to give it a go because I know they'd be competitive but totally understandable if folks don't want to or it doesn't fit into their goals. As Vagas mentioned, it is a different game than what they are probably used to but at it's core still an AA field trial - the game is big to the front, find a bird(s), get to the end, keep your fingers crossed.

Here ya' go, an excerpt from the running of the Pacific Coast Ch (a Nat. qualifier trial just to make it clear) from the American Field write up. I was there, I tried, I swear!!:
Zumbro Ace (Gellhaus) and Dunfur’s Plan B (Favor) had strong hours on the ground along with excellent wild bird finds. Ace had a find on Huns at 10 and chukar at 30. After a huge cast to the hills on the east point was called by the scout for Plan B. He had a pair of Huns located on a steep sage covered hillside. Both dogs finished to the front at moderate range.

Here ya' go, another GSP that was entered:
Foxgloves D J (Hogan) had a strong breakaway and then wasn’t seen under judgment again. Americus Audibon (Robertson) was running a medium race when point was called at 25. After a lengthy relocation nothing could be produced and the dog was sent on. Continuing to run at a modest range, he was picked up at 40.

Here ya' go, from the Pacific Coast Derby Ch., also a Nat'l Qualifier, Dan Hoke with a GSP in the entry:
Jet to the Moon (Hoke) and Jango Fett (Turley) had strong breakaways and took the hills heading south. Jet didn’t make the turn and was gone at 12. Fett continued for his hour, staying to the front at medium to close range, working hard.

GSP dudes out here are giving it a go when they can. It's freakin' hard, have I mentioned that anywhere???

[shags]

And, could it win? Could a Brittany?

Both GSPs and Brittanies made it to Ames...for the AKC gundog Championship. And they got beat by a pointer

[hi-tailyn]

Both GSPs and Brittanies made it to Ames...for the AKC gundog Championship. And they got beat by a pointer

The judges missed seeing the covey of birds leaving as they got to dog, others in gallery saw. The GSP ran bigger race , style, and w/o that NP definitely would have changed places.

Pointers get beat every weekend by other breeds. Just because you have a pointer and another breed is running, don't think it will always be a walk in the park to the placements.

[slistoe]

It's freakin' hard, have I mentioned that anywhere???

I would bet that if there were 35 pointers entered in a stake there would be 35 Pointer owners who would be saying the same thing. The fact is an AF CH is hard, darn hard, and to do it twice in the same year in a handful of stakes.....just to be qualified to run harder..... well, we could just stick with "It's freakin' hard".

[slistoe]

Both GSPs and Brittanies made it to Ames...for the AKC gundog Championship. And they got beat by a pointer

The judges missed seeing the covey of birds leaving as they got to dog, others in gallery saw. The GSP ran bigger race , style, and w/o that NP definitely would have changed places.

:roll: Whats with the excuses? It is what it was. Someone won, someone lost. Maybe next year.

[hi-tailyn]

Both GSPs and Brittanies made it to Ames...for the AKC gundog Championship. And they got beat by a pointer

The judges missed seeing the covey of birds leaving as they got to dog, others in gallery saw. The GSP ran bigger race , style, and w/o that NP definitely would have changed places.

:roll: Whats with the excuses? It is what it was. Someone won, someone lost. Maybe next year.

Not meaning to give excuses.
Just that anyone can get beat. It can be just as easy as a missed covey rise by the judges.

[TAK]

Well I expect you to take a "Big year" and hit every trial to get you to Ames! That means every trial from Coast to Coast!

Fact is I hope the Ol Doc gives it a go sometime.

Does noone read what get's posted in these things?? I have given it a go!! My dog has had good outings, nothing to be ashamed of, far from coming in last place. Bugs had a fantastic go at the Pacific Coast last year, hugest find of the stake on a pair of huns - we just got beat. We'll try again this year!! I know there are better stubbies out there, it'd be nice if they got a chance to give it a go because I know they'd be competitive but totally understandable if folks don't want to or it doesn't fit into their goals. As Vagas mentioned, it is a different game than what they are probably used to but at it's core still an AA field trial - the game is big to the front, find a bird(s), get to the end, keep your fingers crossed.

Here ya' go, an excerpt from the running of the Pacific Coast Ch (a Nat. qualifier trial just to make it clear) from the American Field write up. I was there, I tried, I swear!!:
Zumbro Ace (Gellhaus) and Dunfur’s Plan B (Favor) had strong hours on the ground along with excellent wild bird finds. Ace had a find on Huns at 10 and chukar at 30. After a huge cast to the hills on the east point was called by the scout for Plan B. He had a pair of Huns located on a steep sage covered hillside. Both dogs finished to the front at moderate range.

Here ya' go, another GSP that was entered:
Foxgloves D J (Hogan) had a strong breakaway and then wasn’t seen under judgment again. Americus Audibon (Robertson) was running a medium race when point was called at 25. After a lengthy relocation nothing could be produced and the dog was sent on. Continuing to run at a modest range, he was picked up at 40.

Here ya' go, from the Pacific Coast Derby Ch., also a Nat'l Qualifier, Dan Hoke with a GSP in the entry:
Jet to the Moon (Hoke) and Jango Fett (Turley) had strong breakaways and took the hills heading south. Jet didn’t make the turn and was gone at 12. Fett continued for his hour, staying to the front at medium to close range, working hard.

GSP dudes out here are giving it a go when they can. It's freakin' hard, have I mentioned that anywhere???

[slistoe]

:roll: Whats with the excuses? It is what it was. Someone won, someone lost. Maybe next year.

Not meaning to give excuses.
Just that anyone can get beat. It can be just as easy as a missed covey rise by the judges.

Were you the judge?
Maybe it was that simple - maybe it wasn't.
Whatever it was, if you want to win you better show up with enough dog and then do your best to do it better than everyone else that showed up with enough dog to get it done. Someone wins, everyone else loses. Way more losers than winners. Always will be, and the separation between the winners and losers will never be far.

[Winchey]

This will make a few happy im sure. The lack of knowledge on this forum is unreal. Lack of knowledge isn't a bad thing, but when the lack of knowledge doesn't understand that they have a lack of said knowledge, thats when I can't handle it. I will no longer be posting on this board. Good luck to all of you with your dogs no matter what the goal is.

That's too bad. Your passion to educate was clearly evident throughout the thread. What a loss to the gundog forum community.

[dan v]

Someone wins, everyone else loses. Way more losers than winners. Always will be, and the separation between the winners and losers will never be far.

And that's the sport of field trialing. One winner. So, not that a person has to become "OK" with loosing, but you do have to realize that on the whole, you will one heck of alot more loosing, than wining.

[Truthseeker]

Seabiscuit was a media darling for a short while but was, alas, a gelding.

I read the book

You may want to read it again. :roll:

[Stoneface]

You guys better wrap this up or the Gustapo... I mean, Ezzy... is liable to shut you down.

[GoodDog]

Let me start off by saying I haven't posted much, mostly lurking for a few years. However, lots of great points and counter points here. That being said, there sure is a lot of breed bias going on here. I am most competitive in the retriever world, but living in Kansas, I got back into bird dogs a few years ago. I love ALL dogs, and got a wonderful GSP that was a blessing to be with and hunt behind. I recently lost her though, and it was time to find another bird dog. Through my profession I have had the opportunity to build a good relationship with Stan Wint, who has WON Ames, Judged Ames, and has owned 6 number one dogs in the country. Lets just say he knows what he is doing when it comes to trailing bird dogs. I have spent some weekend time at his home, and watched his dogs run, and they are amazing animals. The situation being what it was, Stan was incredibly generous and gave me a pup. I can't thank him enough.

So, the question, Absolutely a GSP could win Ames, it is just going to be a major uphill battle, and might possibly never be done. Having spent a lot of time in the retriever world competing, owning a number of horses, some good some not so good, owning mostly GSP's and a few EP's in my day, one thing I have learned is that each breed has inherit strength's and weakness's. That does not mean one bread is better, just different. I have yet to own an EP that would hit the water like some of my GSP's, or own a GSP that can compete at the level one of my Labs can mark, not a dig, just a breed difference, all wonderful animals.

So my point is simply that the game we are talking about plays to the strengths of the Pointers and then a few Setters. Big running, big nose, great stamina, and lots of style. I too love an underdog, but the deck is certainly stacked to the Pointers. I also know the volume, and quality of dogs that Stan goes through to find the few dogs he considers competitive on a day in day out basis. Most people are not willing to make that kind of investment to play this game. Not to mention the financial investment.

So I wish everyone wanting to give it a go good luck, be safe, and have fun. However, realize that you shouldn't bring a knife to a gun fight, and I know that the field trial world is certainly a gun fight. So bring the best you have!

[dead mike]

Goodog, good post. Whats the breeding on the dog Stan gave you? Miller in there for sure i would imagine, any Shadow etc? Real curious. Lucky to get a pup like that.

[V-John]

You guys better wrap this up or the Gustapo... I mean, Ezzy... is liable to shut you down.

Funny, I thought the same thing.
Am glad the thread is still going however.

[jcbuttry8]

I have stayed out of this fight but have enjoyed the back and forth and think that it has stayed pretty clean so far.

I owned a great pointer. I think most that have met her would agree. She is now running the pro shooting dog circuit full time and from what I have gotten from Mike, will be running a few championships before she is even 2. She is an amazing dog.

When she was 13 mos old, I took her out to the English setter club and ran her with a few of the shorthairs around here. We turned her loose on the 4 to 500 acre piece with one of the shorthairs and they took the outside edge all the way around the whole piece. We made it back to the break off with Kona 400 yards out and the shorthair right next to the quads. We then brought out the second shorthair, which is one that runs many of the AA events around here in the AKC trials, and turned them loose. They made three laps around the piece. By the end of the third lap, the shorthair was next to the quad and ready to go back and Kona was 500 yards out and still getting it. We went back to the club house and it took me 10 minutes to get kona back to the club house. She had done crossed the bridge and was heading down the back side of the property. That was 1:45 into the run and she had no signs of quite in her at 13 mos. I am not saying that there is not a shorthair out there that couldn't do better, but that those type of pointers are truly hard to match, and she is only considered a shooting dog that would never be considered by most as a dog that should be used as an AA pointer.

I do believe that there is or can be a shorthair out their that can do it. I just think that it is a mountain that most will never want or try to climb. I went to the Shooting Dog Futurity with Kona and placed 4th. There were 30 young pointers there that could have easily taken one of those spots. For every one GSP that might have the talent to take it to Ames there will be a 100 pointers and setters that can match it. It is a pointer/ Setter game.

There are plenty of games out there for each breed. I would not expect a pointer to run in the Shorthair nationals and place, just like I don't think that a shorthair should run or place in the Brittany Nationals. They all have there place and they all have their games. Most of the trialers that I have come across so far would not be bothered with trying to run their shorthairs at Ames. Not worth the time or the headaches to get them their, but I don't think that means that they can't get their. I would hope that any judge that is chosen to call the event based on the performance of the dog would and could do just that, but at the end of the day, we are all just human, and have our own preferences.

Joe

[Rockstar]

Im Not sure Why some Sporting breed enthusiasts want to Out Pointer a Pointer.

Were a GSP to make it to Ames, it shows just how far removed the breed is from what it once was...some say that is a good thing, others think no so good.

[rinker]

[quoteStan Wint, who has WON Ames][/quote]

Mr Wint owned Honky Tonk Attitude, am I thinking of the right person? Which dog did he win the National Championship at Ames with?

[rockyridge kennels]

[quote="GoodDog"] Stan Wint, who has WON Ames, Judged Ames, quote]


I think he Judged the Hobart Ames Trial, Not Sure he ever judged the National Championship at Ames..

[topher40]

Stan has never judged the National.

[Neil]

Dr. Wint is a very accomplished dog man, but I do not think he has ever had a dog run in the National Championship, I am almost certain he has not judged it.

That aside I would listen to whatever he had to say about dogs,

[ACooper]

Im Not sure Why some Sporting breed enthusiasts want to Out Pointer a Pointer.

Were a GSP to make it to Ames, it shows just how far removed the breed is from what it once was...some say that is a good thing, others think no so good.

Could not agree more.

[ezzy333]

Im Not sure Why some Sporting breed enthusiasts want to Out Pointer a Pointer.

Were a GSP to make it to Ames, it shows just how far removed the breed is from what it once was...some say that is a good thing, others think no so good.

Could not agree more.

Been my question for years. If all dogs are supposed to have the same qualities then we would only have one breed.

[GoodDog]

I'm sorry I wasn't clear before, I meant no misinformation. When I stated that Stan Wint had won at Ames, I was referring to his multiple National Amateur and Hobart wins at Ames, as well as his judging the Hobart and the National Amateur. I have pics of his office with just a few of his trophies, and his stories are even better. I spent some time with him today and he was telling me about a trial he ran in which there were 18 different placements depending on which venue you ran, and his dogs took all 18 placements. That's one heck of a bunch of good dogs. I know he is running some AA dogs now too, I believe he was just out at the trial on Ted Turner's ranch and took 2nd and 3rd. I really enjoy Stan, and think he is one heck of a guy, and sure as heck knows his dogs.

[slistoe]

Im Not sure Why some Sporting breed enthusiasts want to Out Pointer a Pointer.

Were a GSP to make it to Ames, it shows just how far removed the breed is from what it once was...some say that is a good thing, others think no so good.

Could not agree more.

Been my question for years. If all dogs are supposed to have the same qualities then we would only have one breed.

Other than size, hair color and hair type, what qualities does a Brittany possess in the field that a GSP or Pointer doesn't or shouldn't?

[dan v]

Been my question for years. If all dogs are supposed to have the same qualities then we would only have one breed.

I could be wrong, but I don't recall you putting in writing what those differences are, other the size, length of tail, color/length of coat.

[bb560m]

Other than size, hair color and hair type, what qualities does a Brittany possess in the field that a GSP or Pointer doesn't or shouldn't?

Well at Ames they're going to have to point the birds, not run them over .

[Chukar12]

Well at Ames they're going to have to point the birds, not run them over .

Other than size, hair color and hair type, what qualities does a Brittany possess in the field that a GSP or Pointer doesn't or shouldn't?

Well at Ames they're going to have to point the birds, not run them over .

That's funny ... were you asking how to keep you Viszla's tail off it's azz on point about a year ago?

[bb560m]

Well at Ames they're going to have to point the birds, not run them over .

Other than size, hair color and hair type, what qualities does a Brittany possess in the field that a GSP or Pointer doesn't or shouldn't?

Well at Ames they're going to have to point the birds, not run them over .

That's funny ... were you asking how to keep you Viszla's tail off it's azz on point about a year ago?

Nope, when doing whoa off of birds. He's pretty stylish on point and his tail doesn't move an inch when I say whoa + collar on birds.

[Redneck]

Stan has never judged the National.

Nor ran in the national, nor qualified for the national, nor ever even ran a dog in a national qualifier ! Stan made his success in the NBHA walking trials. He and Scott gave it a go on the open shooting dog circuit for a brief period. Sure are a lot of folks who like to spout their BS as fact - I see where Vagas is coming from! Could a GSP qualify for the natl? - sure, it's possible. Could a GSP win the natl? - sure could. Probably have a better chance of winning it than qualifying for it. Everyone in the afield circuit knows that Ames are not aa grounds for 1, and for 2, it's a bird counting trial. The dogs that are ran in the natl are geared down - except for maybe Derrigs. Afield aa people are generally more impressed by an aa dog winning on the prairies or even the continental. The natl is not the best test of an aa dog, it's just the most historic, prestigious, and one of the top $ trials. Even if one of Doug's dogs were to qualify, he'd have to face the same task Richie and Lori have had to deal with.......take a western dog used to the wide open spaces and get it used to running in a maze. As for all the GSP apologists, there are 3 gentleman from my neck of the woods who haven't been afraid to run in open breed stakes and have done some winning. When they win they don't brag and when they get beat they don't make excuses - sounds like Doug is cut from the same cloth. It don't take much to be a big fish in a small pond, venture out and give it a go - if you don't have success it won't be because of the breed u run.