What is an AA pointer?

Rockstar · Post by **Rockstar** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:40 pm

Orvis birds are not planted, they are liberated, theyve had several weeks to acclimate to the wild...
There is also a managed wild population.

The Dakotas are no different.
Pheasant are DNR managed and released every year and they are not les wild after 2 weeks.

Sorry the thread got off target. Back to the topic.
AA dogs are the only dos worth feeding and the only hunting dogs in America.
1000 yd range is needed to bag birds.

Rockstar · Post by **Rockstar** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:44 pm

Chukar12 wrote:
Rockstar wrote:I really dont think video Hunting wild birds will excite you, especially of close-medium ranging hunting dogs,
They rarely get out more than 150 yards. But they work for me.
Pardon me for asking...is this video of you hunting "wild birds" on location at this Orvis endorsed ranch in Utah?

16,000 acres.
Wild and Liberated birds.

Woulfd you rather they be planted quail or chukar by a bird planter off of a 4 wheeler?

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:44 pm

Are you a guide there? Those are nice gun dogs, I would be scared to death some yahoo was going to shoot one of those dogs when it broke.

cjuve · Post by **cjuve** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:45 pm

Those birds look less than wild to me, they were shooting hens.
http://pvhunting.com/

From the Utah Upland Regs.

Ring-necked pheasant (General season)
• Season dates: Nov. 3–Nov. 18, 2012
• Youth hunt: The youth hunt will occur on Saturday,
Oct. 13, 2012. If you are a youth who will be 15
or younger on Oct. 13, you may participate in this
hunt. You must be accompanied by an adult who is
21 or older. For more information, see page 11.
• Areas open: Statewide*.
• Bag limit: 2
• Possession limit: 6
• Footnotes: Only males may be harvested. No 8
a.m. restriction on opening morning. The Goshen
Warm Springs WMA in Utah County is closed to all
hunting.

Ring-necked pheasant (Extended season)
• Season dates: Nov. 3–Dec. 2, 2012
• Areas open: CAUTION: Not all counties are open for the extended season. Only the following areas
are open: All state and federal land in Carbon, Duchesne, Emery, Grand, Juab, Millard, San Juan,
Sanpete, Sevier, Tooele and Uintah counties (including private land leased by the Division subject
to restrictions and closures imposed by administering agencies).
• Bag limit: 2
• Possession limit: 6
• Footnotes: Only males may be harvested. No 8 a.m. restriction on opening morning.

Rockstar · Post by **Rockstar** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:49 pm

cjuve wrote:Those birds look less than wild to me, they were shooting hens.
http://pvhunting.com/

From the Utah Upland Regs.
Ring-necked pheasant (Extended season)
• Season dates: Nov. 3–Dec. 2, 2012
• Areas open: CAUTION: Not all counties are open for the extended season. Only the following areas
are open: All state and federal land in Carbon, Duchesne, Emery, Grand, Juab, Millard, San Juan,
Sanpete, Sevier, Tooele and Uintah counties (including private land leased by the Division subject
to restrictions and closures imposed by administering agencies).
• Bag limit: 2
• Possession limit: 6
• Footnotes: Only males may be harvested. No 8 a.m. restriction on opening morning.

Castle Valley Outdoors is Recognized by Gun Dog Magazine for having the best hunting guides and trained bird dogs in the country, your days in the field will be as successful as they are memorable.
http://huntingtop10.com/Utah/Pheasant-H ... itter/376/

This is a PRIVATELY Owned Lodge. Hens are Legal, they are not state property!!!

There are also 16,000 acres and a sustainable pheasant, quail and chukar population.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:52 pm

Private or not you cannot shoot hens deemed wild .... Jack

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:55 pm

stop feeding the troll ......and they normally run out of hot air!

cjuve · Post by **cjuve** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:55 pm

Rockstar wrote:
cjuve wrote:Those birds look less than wild to me, they were shooting hens.
http://pvhunting.com/

From the Utah Upland Regs.
Ring-necked pheasant (Extended season)
• Season dates: Nov. 3–Dec. 2, 2012
• Areas open: CAUTION: Not all counties are open for the extended season. Only the following areas
are open: All state and federal land in Carbon, Duchesne, Emery, Grand, Juab, Millard, San Juan,
Sanpete, Sevier, Tooele and Uintah counties (including private land leased by the Division subject
to restrictions and closures imposed by administering agencies).
• Bag limit: 2
• Possession limit: 6
• Footnotes: Only males may be harvested. No 8 a.m. restriction on opening morning.

Castle Valley Outdoors is Recognized by Gun Dog Magazine for having the best hunting guides and trained bird dogs in the country, your days in the field will be as successful as they are memorable.

This is a PRIVATELY Owned Lodge. Hens are Legal!!! But nice try, Sherlock Holmes.

There are also 16,000 acres and a sustainable pheasant population.

And do you feel that the video was an good example of the best trained bird dogs in the country?

Rockstar · Post by **Rockstar** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:56 pm

Chukar12 wrote:Private or not you cannot shoot hens deemed wild .... Jack

You can on your own property if they are YOUR Birds...

Lodges and preserves allow the taking of Hens. So does the state.

You guys are unreal. Anything to swipe at someone who doesnt buy into your BS.

Back to talking trial dogs now.

Rockstar · Post by **Rockstar** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:00 pm

cjuve wrote:
Rockstar wrote:
cjuve wrote:Those birds look less than wild to me, they were shooting hens.
http://pvhunting.com/

From the Utah Upland Regs.
Ring-necked pheasant (Extended season)
• Season dates: Nov. 3–Dec. 2, 2012
• Areas open: CAUTION: Not all counties are open for the extended season. Only the following areas
are open: All state and federal land in Carbon, Duchesne, Emery, Grand, Juab, Millard, San Juan,
Sanpete, Sevier, Tooele and Uintah counties (including private land leased by the Division subject
to restrictions and closures imposed by administering agencies).
• Bag limit: 2
• Possession limit: 6
• Footnotes: Only males may be harvested. No 8 a.m. restriction on opening morning.

Castle Valley Outdoors is Recognized by Gun Dog Magazine for having the best hunting guides and trained bird dogs in the country, your days in the field will be as successful as they are memorable.

This is a PRIVATELY Owned Lodge. Hens are Legal!!! But nice try, Sherlock Holmes.

There are also 16,000 acres and a sustainable pheasant population.
And do you feel that the video was an good example of the best trained bird dogs in the country?

Where exactly did I infer this?
Video request was requested and granted.

Or Would you rather I be riding a horse, carrying a blank pistol, and with dogs pointing recently planted planted quail or chukar, while singing to my dog- whose wearing a GPS collar, being followed by a Spotter/Tracker, and then calling it a hunting dog?

cjuve · Post by **cjuve** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:00 pm

You guys are unreal. Anything to swipe at someone who doesnt buy into your BS.

That is the funniest post that I have ever read on this board given your lack of understanding and tolerance for an opposing viewpoint

tn red · Post by **tn red** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:01 pm

Ames birds are 1000x wilder

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:02 pm

Rockstar wrote:
RayGubernat wrote:Joe and Dan -

C'mon guys. Don't spoil everyone's fun. It is a cold an rainy night here. Rockstar is providing a high level of comic relief. I'm lovin' it more than a three stooges marathon. He cracks me up.

C'mon Rockstar...tell us more. PUHLEEEZE!!! Don't let those big bad guys on this forum scare you off. Just because some of them have decades of expereince hunting and trialing all over the US shouln't give you the slightest pause. We all know you are the fount of all knowledge as it pertains to birds, bird dogs, hunting and trialing.

Keep on telling us what the truth is. I haven't laughed this much in a loooooong time. The thing that makes me laugh the most is that you have reminded me that... once upon a time, I was even more sure than you seem to be...that I knew all the answers too!!

RayG
Ray
All I do is crunch the data and dont know if I should laugh or cry.

At least you guys in the 'trial club' can keep telling yourselves youre breeding 'hunting dogs'

Rockstar -

Ever hear this one??

"Figures don't lie...but liars sure do know how to figure."

There is a lot of truth to that.

If you are lucky, sooner or later you will realize that it ain't about the numbers, it ain't about a full game bag, it ain't even about killing birds and it sure ain't about you or me.

It is about the dogs and how they do what they do. When you start to see the dogs as something more than a tool to fill your gamebag, you just might appreciate how they do what they do and begin to explore that side of it. It can be truly amazing to watch a dog push the limits of its abilities in competition.

Oh and I meant what I said about my thinking I knew it all...years and years ago. Like the hapless dolt who got turned into a Neut in the Monty Python movie, "I got Bettah"!

You will too hopefully.

Cheers and happy New Year.

RayG

Rockstar · Post by **Rockstar** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:07 pm

cjuve wrote:
You guys are unreal. Anything to swipe at someone who doesnt buy into your BS.
That is the funniest post that I have ever read on this board given your lack of understanding and tolerance for an opposing viewpoint

I think we see who has the lack of tolerance here.

Anyone that goes against the grain and doesnt bow on the altar of trialing and 1000yd range dogs, elicits the 'calls' out to the GDF Militia, who soon do all they can to libel, smear, denigrate and otherwise intimidate a poster, the same way a wasps protect their nest.

Your sport is dwindling and dying, and yet so many of you remain locked in foolish pride and delusions of grandeur and omnipotance in your sport, as the only test of a hunting dog- and that any criticism of your sport is not warranted, necesary, cathartic or cleansing.

Guys, I apologized 2 xs for unitentional hijacking, I started another thread to move this over there.
So have at it. Im done with this thread, but will be on the other one.

dead mike · Post by **dead mike** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:07 pm

Nice post Ray

Rockstar · Post by **Rockstar** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:09 pm

tn red wrote:Ames birds are 1000x wilder

You mean the Ames birds that are radio collared, and that hang out near the edges of trails most of their lives according to the biologists?

For sure, dude.

tn red · Post by **tn red** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:13 pm

Rockstar wrote:
tn red wrote:Ames birds are 1000x wilder
You mean the Ames birds that are radio collared, and that hang out near the edges of trails most of their lives according to the biologists?

For sure, dude.

The more you post the more it shows you dont know jack sh&t about Ames or trial dogs & the longer i watch the video im thinking wild birds also.

Rockstar · Post by **Rockstar** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:23 pm

RayGubernat wrote: Ever hear this one??

"Figures don't lie...but liars sure do know how to figure."
There is a lot of truth to that.

If you are lucky, sooner or later you will realize that it ain't about the numbers, it ain't about a full game bag, it ain't even about killing birds and it sure ain't about you or me.
It is about the dogs and how they do what they do. When you start to see the dogs as something more than a tool to fill your gamebag, you just might appreciate how they do what they do and begin to explore that side of it. It can be truly amazing to watch a dog push the limits of its abilities in competition.

Oh and I meant what I said about my thinking I knew it all...years and years ago. Like the hapless dolt who got turned into a Neut in the Monty Python movie, "I got Bettah"!
You will too hopefully.
Cheers and happy New Year.RayG

Thanks Ray, Happy New year to you too.
This dialogue comes from Ames contestants on the topic of so FEW Finds & Liberated Quail at Ames
(It aint just me Ray!!).

qwkennel:
'Went out yesterday to ride the afternoon brace and spoke with a couple of the powers to be. Seems those vicious rumors are true...unless something changes the staff will release birds at the Ames for next years trials. The great debate comes to a close.'

'You may not be able to tell pre-released birds from true, Mid-South wild Bob Whites, but those of us that have hunted here can. They use the habitat and behave differently, meaning you can anchor released birds on the edges and they are more inclined to hold for the dog. They can fly well enough, but they are much easier to find and handle. I can think of no other reason to release them.
I am amazed that you would automatically think that anyone that would take a position different from yours is ignorant, inexperienced, and is in someway criticizing the dogs, handlers, and judges. I have
extensive knowledge of wild birds, 40 years experience with bird dogs, and think we have as great of All-Age dogs as have ever lived.
I believe the handlers are highly skilled and the judges fair and knowlegeable.
I feel I have earned the right to express my opinion, which is; If there is 1 bird per 1 1/2 acres at Ames as reported.
The quail research at Ames has been open to peer review (that means others get to pick holes in what is published, if there are anyholes). It is a twist of logic for you to assume that there are few birds there because FEW are found by the dogs. It is not unlike saying there is no oil in Texas because none is found puddled in backyards.'

On the Topic of Thousands of Released Birds at AMES Vs Wild Quail:
'I like two things about Ames; 100 years of tradition and one of the very few oportunities for our great dogs to show themselves on truly wild Bob Whites. Well that and the wallpaper in the big house is kind of neat.
Some say when there are so few finds that it is all luck, I think when there are so few, only the very best dogs will have them.'
Neil

'Marvin, knowing Neil as I do, I know he is as traditionalist and purist as there is when it comes
to such a Trial, the biggest of the big, steeped in all the pagentry that comes with it. He, like myself,
believes there are more birds at the Ames Plantation than are being shown. I simply think he feels that we
can not continue the same modus operandi at these particular grounds and have any chance of being
successful. Believe me when I say, he is not knocking the dogs, handlers, judges, plantation staff or
whoever else.
He wants us to realize that the birds at the plantation have figured out this game also, as Mr.
Gleber has mentioned, and they have found safe haven and it is not in the fields or on the edges. This has
proven to be a bonifide fact.
How are we going to react when Rachel takes her tracker out tommorrow and
in front of well respected field trial patrons, shows them about 20 different coveys that were not contacted
during the trial? Whatever dog wins the National this year will probably have a stud fee that will be
astronomical in price. The owner will be able to market that this dog was the last dog to win the
National on wild birds. Any other trial falls well short of winning this trial on wild birds.'
To my friend Neil,
(Mike Pugh)

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:33 pm

Rockstar,

Do you know what they are saying in the diatribe above? I mean you do realize they are not in any way shape or form arguing the competency of the dogs right?

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 7:13 pm

Just. Couldn't. Help. Myself.

mask · Post by **mask** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:11 pm

There are some on here that don't want to address the question. Maybe they don't know and just want to add their two cents, that or they just like a pi$$ing contest. Pretty amusing either way.

Wildweeds · Post by **Wildweeds** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 8:14 pm

I'll preface this with I've never been to ames,but I have seen some AA dogs in action,fact is I have a female here that is qualified for AA/SD CH and a male who's old and retired who is SD CH qualified.I know a fellow or two who HAS been to Ames,One of them a retired AF AA handler who lives in mexico and has trained some of Oscars pointers.All that said Ames is a shooting dog course I've been told,They race an AA dog around there and the dog has to handle,you take the big prarie winners and see what they have done at the joint,dooodly squat because they are just to much dog for the outfit.Which is why some of the western handlers do the southern circut in preparation for going to ames to try and shorten the prarie dogs.

When your watching for the dust cloud to tell where the dog is at near the next ridge in the chukar hills and your on top of the previous ridge and you see the dog crest the hill of the next one by the dust cloud,your watching an AA race,when you crest the spot where you last seen em and they are two ridges away and still hogging it on,it's AA especially if there's a turn that's thrown in by the handler and the dog actually turns and is found on point two more ridges over from that one right where he's supposed to be.I personally seen all of this executed by a dog named Hardrocks Mr Destiny which is/was a GSP.The yardages those dogs ran that day I was tagging alone were 800+ and jetjockey is right,for the most part you can't pick them out most of the time in the sage,get em up on the ridgeline and you have em and then you don't.My male setter has been at 937 yards and pointing on the garmin and it wasn't until I closed the gap to 600 that I could make him out even though the red pointer had him dead to rights.For a good majority of his carreer the dog was nothing more than a western gundog which near as I can tell is a 3-400 yard dog capable of going out on a big cast when the terrain dictated it.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 10:47 pm

Geeeaaawwwwd....what a waste of 20" of my life...

AA pointer:

Chukar12osophy, Chapter 2 - Time Management :
"the longer you stay...the longer you stay" Tru dat - peace out

Croix · Post by **Croix** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:56 pm

You guys are worse then Junior High School girls , let a guy have an opinion. Instead of picking apart posts and teaming up on particular posts. Get out and hunt/trial your dogs This forum has really slid downhill, the last year. Too many know it alls , and not enough help/encouragement.

Good luck to all,
It makes a guy/gal gunshy to ask for help or opinion.

Sad !!

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:00 am

Croix wrote:You guys are worse then Junior High School girls , let a guy have an opinion. Instead of picking apart posts and teaming up on particular posts. Get out and hunt/trial your dogs This forum has really slid downhill, the last year. Too many know it alls , and not enough help/encouragement.

Good luck to all,
It makes a guy/gal gunshy to ask for help or opinion.

Sad !!

There is a bit of difference between an opinion and a agenda, bet bottom dollar this is the same person starts this discussion under different names on different forums each year......this is like a broken record if you've surfed these forums for a few years. JMO

That avatar dog of mine is out of Lester's snowatch and a sister of Happy Jack (directly), she will run way out the front from horse, hunt inside 200 yards from foot on wild birds in the midwest and i guide with her in 40 acre preserve fields Un-hacked.....so the idea these dogs won't do it all is ridiculous....and anyone around that knows AA type dogs and their breeding knows this, to infer they can't do it all well is ignorance. Plain and simple.

RyanGSP · Post by **RyanGSP** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:34 am

Rockstar wrote:
SetterNut wrote:I have not been to an AA trail.
But this fall in Montana, I hunted with a Setter that has run in some. It was impressive to say the least. The dog found 6 covey of huns and some sharptail. The dog was flawless on the birds. The last covey was pointed at 1200 yards. Took us a long while to get to him, but when we got there, we walked out front, flushed and killed birds. The speed, range and stamina of this dog was special.

Sounds nice, but most late season wild birds would be long gone by the time you got to any point from a distance of 200 yards...

LMAO where are you hunting. If your quoting Scott there I hunt not 2 hours from where he does and let me tell you this. We hunted pheasants on the closing day and ALL pheasants were shot over points where the bird came up less than 10 yards from the dog, the last one was pointed 6 feet from where we were walking and was about 1 foot from the dogs nose as he caught the cross breeze. That bird held until it was literally kicked into the air.

Huns do get skittish around here but you know what busts a covey wild? Its not a dog pointing them at 25 yards its when those birds see your head come over the hill or bush that sends them airborne.

I also really like this part of the thread as well.

I heard a long time field trailer laugh that the Garmin Astro has done more than anything to shorten the distance a big running dog actually runs. Kinda like range finders did with rifle shooting. Those 500 yard shots quickly became 300 yard shots.

Crestonegsp · Post by **Crestonegsp** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:12 am

Why is it when AA talk starts it goes range and how big they run? An AA dog is much more than just how big they run, it's more about how they got to where they are then where they are.

The best line to discribe AA dog is - "An AA dog is like pornography, it’s hard to explain but you know it when you see it."

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:19 am

Crestonegsp wrote:"An AA dog is like pornography, it’s hard to explain but you know it when you see it."

And you either like it, or you want to ban it.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:33 am

Rockstar,

I really don't care what you think, but your facts are wrong and dated. Your quote of me is from nearly 10 years ago.

I don't understand your agenda, don't care about that either, but please be honest.

What was true 10 years ago is not true today.

Neil

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:00 am

I enjoyed your post chukar, got a great laugh from those pics also!!!

x Bred Pointer · Post by **x Bred Pointer** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:12 am

That avatar dog of mine is out of Lester's snowatch and a sister of Happy Jack (directly), she will run way out the front from horse, hunt inside 200 yards from foot on wild birds in the midwest and i guide with her in 40 acre preserve fields Un-hacked.....so the idea these dogs won't do it all is ridiculous....and anyone around that knows AA type dogs and their breeding knows this, to infer they can't do it all well is ignorance. Plain and simple.[/quote]

I don't post here very often but this is probably the most sensible statement I've seen in a while on here.
It's like politics. Your either on the left or the right and there ain't no swaying people. The hunters don't seem to want to acknowledge that trial bred dogs can hunt and trialers won't go to so called hunting dog stock to look for their next dog either.
I for one want to own the best bred dog I can find and the ped will generally have a bunch of champions up close.
I trial, hunt and guide with my dogs in the woods. Coverdog guys are almost all hunters and their dogs (even the champions) are hunted extensively. Not sure if it is the same in HB AA & SD but I'm sure it is done.

V-John · Post by **V-John** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:43 am

Croix wrote:You guys are worse then Junior High School girls , let a guy have an opinion. Instead of picking apart posts and teaming up on particular posts. Get out and hunt/trial your dogs This forum has really slid downhill, the last year. Too many know it alls , and not enough help/encouragement.

Good luck to all,
It makes a guy/gal gunshy to ask for help or opinion.

Sad !!

Asking a training question and running down trial dogs is two different things. This person did not ask for help, rather is trying to start up trouble by running down other folks way of hunting and their dogs.
I find it horribly ironic that a person who discusses how "late season birds wont hold for a big running dog" goes to an Orvis endorsed lodge to hunt "property of the lodge" (re planted birds). Furrthermore I find it ironic that this person runs down the Ames plantation for using released quail and yet, uses a lodge that uses released pheasant.
Ironic isnt it?

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:52 am

x Bred Pointer wrote:That avatar dog of mine is out of Lester's snowatch and a sister of Happy Jack (directly), she will run way out the front from horse, hunt inside 200 yards from foot on wild birds in the midwest and i guide with her in 40 acre preserve fields Un-hacked.....so the idea these dogs won't do it all is ridiculous....and anyone around that knows AA type dogs and their breeding knows this, to infer they can't do it all well is ignorance. Plain and simple.

I don't post here very often but this is probably the most sensible statement I've seen in a while on here.
It's like politics. Your either on the left or the right and there ain't no swaying people. The hunters don't seem to want to acknowledge that trial bred dogs can hunt and trialers won't go to so called hunting dog stock to look for their next dog either.
I for one want to own the best bred dog I can find and the ped will generally have a bunch of champions up close.
I trial, hunt and guide with my dogs in the woods. Coverdog guys are almost all hunters and their dogs (even the champions) are hunted extensively. Not sure if it is the same in HB AA & SD but I'm sure it is done.[/quote]

I agree with both above statements 100% I have sons, daughters, and a full sister to national champions. And many more granddaughters, grandsons, sons and daughters of AA champions. Also there are some sons and daughters of my dogs that are out competing right now
The ones here go wild bird hunting withme, sometimes I walk, sometimes I use the horse. No judge to impress, I buy the feed and provide the care. I thy don't find birds or hunt for me they are not coming home. You won't see me at any trials anytime soon. But I do belive that the champions are there for the fact that they have a superior nose, intelligence, trainabilty as well as run with style like no others.

UpNorthHuntin · Post by **UpNorthHuntin** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:11 am

mask wrote:One reason for unproductives is because ames type dogs are trained to stop at first scent, if no birds are flushed the dog is ask to relocate. If a dog moves without being signaled to do so you might as well pick him up. Sometimes pen raised birds just wander off and other odd stuff happens. I have been to ames once and I know three trainers that qualify dogs almost every year. Most dogs cannot stand the pressure the training puts on them. The trip to ames is worth going and I would recommend it. If you have not seen true AA dogs compete you should it is a beautiful sight. Big running field trial dogs and big running hunting dogs are usually a horse of a differdnt color.

Pardon my ignorance, but I am relatively new to pointing dogs and won't presume to know much of anything.... I have a serious question though that I have been pondering. Why would an AA dog be trained to "lock-up" or stop at first scent? Isn't that in essence teaching a dog to be unproductive? In training narcotics/explosive dogs, trackers or trailers, dogs are trained to recognize scent and bracket the scent using the wind to the scource of the scent prior to giving a final response, or in this case, pointing... Is it due to the fear of the dog "bumping" or flushing the birds. It seams like creating twice as much work for the dog. I like to see a dog hit scent from 100 yds away and bracket the scent until he is close enough to point a productive find? Not trying to be "smart", I'm really curious as to why we would create a situation where a dog would have an unproductive point?

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:35 am

The gambles and scaled quail here cannot be hunted like that. They are running at the first bit of pressure.

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:09 am

Rockstar,

Since you hunt in Utah at this Orvis ranch, you are more than welcome to come hunt truly "wild birds" with me anytime in Utah. Just shoot me a pm with your phone number and we can get it set up! Been hunting almost every weekend since the hunts started, so I think we are now in the "late season" aspect of hunting. It takes me 15-20 minutes to get to my dogs almost every time they go on point. Had my little GSP on point over 500 yards last week, took a bit to hike up to her. And guess what?
She was there! Can ya believe it!

And we even shot one! No chittin ya!

Even those worthless "white dogs" you hate so much! Late season, stood on point for over 25 minutes!

Who coulda thought an AA bred pointer could find and point wild birds so his owner could shoot it! No kiddin...

You sound very familiar to another guy that was here just a few months back ranting and raving about the same things you are! Anyway I hope you take me up on it, I will even buy you dinner after the hunt and pay gas! Just bring your hound.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:12 am

UpNorthHuntin wrote:
mask wrote:One reason for unproductives is because ames type dogs are trained to stop at first scent, if no birds are flushed the dog is ask to relocate. If a dog moves without being signaled to do so you might as well pick him up. Sometimes pen raised birds just wander off and other odd stuff happens. I have been to ames once and I know three trainers that qualify dogs almost every year. Most dogs cannot stand the pressure the training puts on them. The trip to ames is worth going and I would recommend it. If you have not seen true AA dogs compete you should it is a beautiful sight. Big running field trial dogs and big running hunting dogs are usually a horse of a differdnt color.

Pardon my ignorance, but I am relatively new to pointing dogs and won't presume to know much of anything.... I have a serious question though that I have been pondering. Why would an AA dog be trained to "lock-up" or stop at first scent? Isn't that in essence teaching a dog to be unproductive? In training narcotics/explosive dogs, trackers or trailers, dogs are trained to recognize scent and bracket the scent using the wind to the scource of the scent prior to giving a final response, or in this case, pointing... Is it due to the fear of the dog "bumping" or flushing the birds. It seams like creating twice as much work for the dog. I like to see a dog hit scent from 100 yds away and bracket the scent until he is close enough to point a productive find? Not trying to be "smart", I'm really curious as to why we would create a situation where a dog would have an unproductive point?

Its the rules of the game, trials of this nature are a proving ground for breeding stock. To show desire, trainability, range, independence among other things.......At some point you have to set rules and standards and the object is to show BROKE dog work from big running independent dogs....so there has to be a line somewhere that shows these qualities. A dog that stands broke for whatever is showing it has the mental fortitude to take the training necessary to get to whatever level is needed.

I am no expert but that's how I look at it.

The good ones that have been exposed also understand what they are doing, you can have a dog stand broke in trials when birds walk off then go hunting and handle birds that are prone to running. I have one that stands on guided hunts if birds run out until i tap him off or release him, then relocate himself on moving wild pheasant until we get them handled for the gun (out west on wild birds). These dogs are smart enough to do alot more than maybe we think they are capable of , given exposure and experience. They have the ability to switch it up depending on what venue or objective (trialing/guiding/wild bird hunting)they are currently involved in. Nothing beats a smart dog with lots of exposure and experience to different situations and venues.

Vision · Post by **Vision** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:17 am

Elkhunter wrote:Rockstar,

Since you hunt in Utah at this Orvis ranch, you are more than welcome to come hunt truly "wild birds" with me anytime in Utah. Just shoot me a pm with your phone number and we can get it set up! Been hunting almost every weekend since the hunts started, so I think we are now in the "late season" aspect of hunting. It takes me 15-20 minutes to get to my dogs almost every time they go on point. Had my little GSP on point over 500 yards last week, took a bit to hike up to her. And guess what?
She was there! Can ya believe it!

And we even shot one! No chittin ya!

Even those worthless "white dogs" you hate so much! Late season, stood on point for over 25 minutes!

Who coulda thought an AA bred pointer could find and point wild birds so his owner could shoot it! No kiddin...

You sound very familiar to another guy that was here just a few months back ranting and raving about the same things you are! Anyway I hope you take me up on it, I will even buy you dinner after the hunt and pay gas! Just bring your hound.

Elkhunter is not feeling well, he drank too much Wassel on Christmas eve and is still delusional from it. There are no wild birds in Utah, you better stay hunting those pen birds at Pleasant Valley. Sorry for the confusion. I promise to keep Elk from the Wassel next Christmas eve.

Post by **topher40** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:21 am

I believe Rockstar has been banned, No need to keep beating a (silent) dead horse.

UpNorthHuntin · Post by **UpNorthHuntin** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:42 am

birddog1968 wrote: I am no expert but that's how I look at it.

The good ones that have been exposed also understand what they are doing, you can have a dog stand broke in trials when birds walk off then go hunting and handle birds that are prone to running. I have one that stands on guided hunts if birds run out until i tap him off or release him, then relocate himself on moving wild pheasant until we get them handled for the gun (out west on wild birds). These dogs are smart enough to do alot more than maybe we think they are capable of , given exposure and experience. They have the ability to switch it up depending on what venue or objective (trialing/guiding/wild bird hunting)they are currently involved in. Nothing beats a smart dog with lots of exposure and experience to different situations and venues.

I understand all of that, but what I don't understand is the disparity that we create by judging a dog on his "trialing" ability rather than pure hunting drive and ability. If a dog points in an AA trial he can not relocate until the judge okays it, correct? So why is that. The handler probably already knows that the bird has moved based-off his dogs demeanor, so why would the judge not allow the handler, or dog for that matter to continue to work the bird until he is locked right up and the handler then flushes the bird. There should not be so much difference between a hunt trial and actually hunting. I think it would force judges to judge on ability. I think sometimes we get too caught up on range, speed, etc and forget that the dogs responsibility is to find birds. To me it seems that the more deliberate and thurough a dog is results in penalties for not ranging far enough or running 25+ miles an hour. I'm all about style, I get that part, but what about a dog with a head held low staring directly in the direction of a bird with the intensity that tells you "Oh he is locked on now". In the Police dog world it is all about reading a dog's change in behaviors and intensity. I worked a narcotics dog that was so awesome I could tell what type of narcotic it was just by the way he acted on response. He would work a field like a bird dog and bracket odor back and forth in a scent cone for 150 yards before he worked to scource and gave a final response. I can't imagine if the dog stopped at 150 yards and I had to tell him to keep working until he got there???

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:52 am

I am not very familiar with planted bird trials but in the trials I go to dogs relocate on their own sometimes. They aren't penalized either unless they do it when the handler steps in front and attempts to flush. There usually isn't much doubt whether the dog has a bird nailed or if the bird has moved on. You can tell by the intensity. Relocating on a runner is dificult dog work. If the dog has already done enough to win or if it is assumed there will be more finds then handlers will elect to take an unproductive rather than risk their dog flushing a bird and ending their run.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:00 pm

UpNorthHuntin wrote:If a dog points in an AA trial he can not relocate until the judge okays it, correct? So why is that. The handler probably already knows that the bird has moved based-off his dogs demeanor, so why would the judge not allow the handler, or dog for that matter to continue to work the bird until he is locked right up and the handler then flushes the bird

No, That isn't correct. You don't need to ask, its polite in my opinion to say you are going to relocate. And you are correct, you can usually tell what's going on...with my older trial dog I will usually hit the whistle or tell him alright from the saddle when I ride up if he looks loose...I have a younger dog I will get down with even if I believe he needs to relocate just to make sure we use the caution we should. You can relocate until you are blue in the face on a running bird in a trial and sometimes it looks really good, it can be a pretty piece of dog work to watch...the dog just may not release itself once you have started the act of flushing.

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:02 pm

topher40 wrote:I believe Rockstar has been banned, No need to keep beating a (silent) dead horse.

Really? His profile shows active and he visited the board at 8:16 this morning.

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:07 pm

UpNorthHuntin wrote: If a dog points in an AA trial he can not relocate until the judge okays it, correct? So why is that.

This is the problem with believing all the internet hype promulgated by those with an agenda.
Keep asking questions, but make sure you listen when those who know tell you.

UpNorthHuntin · Post by **UpNorthHuntin** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:25 pm

Chukar12 wrote:No, That isn't correct. You don't need to ask, its polite in my opinion to say you are going to relocate. And you are correct, you can usually tell what's going on...with my older trial dog I will usually hit the whistle or tell him alright from the saddle when I ride up if he looks loose...I have a younger dog I will get down with even if I believe he needs to relocate just to make sure we use the caution we should. You can relocate until you are blue in the face on a running bird in a trial and sometimes it looks really good, it can be a pretty piece of dog work to watch...the dog just may not release itself once you have started the act of flushing.

Thanks Chukar12.... And please tell sistoe I am on this forum to learn, not meaning to insult anyone.... If I have presumed I know anything at all about field trials in any of my posts....you are all reading the wrong posts. I appreciate the advice..

UpNorthHuntin · Post by **UpNorthHuntin** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:27 pm

slistoe wrote:This is the problem with believing all the internet hype promulgated by those with an agenda.
Keep asking questions, but make sure you listen when those who know tell you.

Thanks, and that's why I'm on here is to learn and listen..... And the humor in the posts back and forth is darn good entertainment.....

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:34 pm

UpNorthHuntin wrote:Thanks Chukar12.... And please tell sistoe I am on this forum to learn, not meaning to insult anyone

I will...

Scott, Upnorthhuntin is on here to learn...not insult anyone.

thank you,

Joe

I am almost like a moderator person...do you get a patch or anything for that? i could put them on my Purina shirt that they "give" me for buying $7,987,000,687 worth of dog food.

UpNorthHuntin · Post by **UpNorthHuntin** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:03 pm

Winchey wrote:I am not very familiar with planted bird trials but in the trials I go to dogs relocate on their own sometimes. They aren't penalized either unless they do it when the handler steps in front and attempts to flush. There usually isn't much doubt whether the dog has a bird nailed or if the bird has moved on. You can tell by the intensity. Relocating on a runner is dificult dog work. If the dog has already done enough to win or if it is assumed there will be more finds then handlers will elect to take an unproductive rather than risk their dog flushing a bird and ending their run.

Now that makes sense to me. If I was penalized for my dog busting a bird, then I would accept the "unproductive" point before taking the chance of ending my day... Thanks.. Planted... Released... Whatever...

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:19 pm

The only hole in Winchey's reply is that when you elect to take an NP....you better hope you don't take another. Most times, yer done with 2x NP.

But yeah, sometimes you just have to know when to move on.

And Joe...I got an extra GDF patch...I'll send one....you do good work, but close the [/img] tag on your sig.

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:32 pm

If you do not initiate a flushing attempt and simply send the dog on, an NP should not be charged.