What is an AA pointer?

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What is an AA pointer?

Post by jetjockey » Wed Dec 26, 2012 12:42 pm

Just for grins, Piggybacking off the other thread, what exactly is an AF AA pointer/setter? How big do they run? How long do they go, and what separates them from other AA dogs in other breeds? I have my opinions, but I'm curious as to what others think. I hear stories of 3/4 mile casts, but who's actually seen a 3/4 mile cast?

I've seen dogs make 800-900 yard casts in the prairies and can tell you at that range, they are nearly IMPOSSIBLE to see, even completely white ones. Those are verified Garmin Astro casts as well. I can also tell you that the Astro with a normal antenna is running out of distance at that range, and once you get to 1000+ yards the regular antenna becomes hit and miss without a long range antenna. I heard a long time field trailer laugh that the Garmin Astro has done more than anything to shorten the distance a big running dog actually runs. Kinda like range finders did with rifle shooting. Those 500 yard shots quickly became 300 yard shots.

So, besides the 3 hour braces at Ames, which very very few Brits or GSP's could ever finish with any steam, what separates the AA pointers from the AA GSP's and Brits? Is it just the run, or the speed? The reason I ask is because people at the AkC NationLs at Ames who had seen both Nationals said there wasn't much difference between the AF dogs and the AKC dogs.... And IMO handle would be more important at Ames than run because its a fairly tight course, where a dog cant make 800-900 yard AA casts. So, just for good discussion, what do you think the differences are, and how big does an AA pointer actually run?

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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by SCT » Wed Dec 26, 2012 12:57 pm

I've got a 6 month old that is taking 3/4 mile casts quite consistently now. I can't see him, I'm just going by what my Garmin Astro is telling me and I know how far I have to drive to catch up to him. I'm told you can't tell an all age dog until they're broke. But that's probably true with any type of field trial dog.

Steve

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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by topher40 » Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:04 pm

The best answer is, GO WATCH ONE. Dont watch some guys dog that "says" this is an AA dog. Go with someone that does it, that has placements with their dogs, and you WILL know the difference within a matter of seconds.
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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by ultracarry » Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:13 pm

AA pointer - its slang for an "All Age pointer" . They do these things called field trials. Within said field trial there is a stake called "All Age".

Hope this helps :D

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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by cjuve » Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:36 pm

Topher hit the nail on the head if you don't know what one is you need to go ride behind one, many people think that they have one but few do.

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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by SetterNut » Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:46 pm

I have not been to an AA trail.
But this fall in Montana, I hunted with a Setter that has run in some. It was impressive to say the least. The dog found 6 covey of huns and some sharptail. The dog was flawless on the birds. The last covey was pointed at 1200 yards. Took us a long while to get to him, but when we got there, we walked out front, flushed and killed birds. The speed, range and stamina of this dog was special.
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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by Rockstar » Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:48 pm

Im curious to know if GSPs pace themselves better/ moreso than Pointers, after an hour or so?????
Is this the issue? Because its not finding birds, thats for sure.


GSPs are very popular with sled dog racers for their endurance, speed and feet to breed into their lines.
I once drove a dog team once in BC, whose Owner,a sledding pro & veteran, had 300+ racing dogs.
He used and preferred Crossbreeds of Husky/Border Collie-coat and gait, Saluki/greyhound for speed, and GSPs endurance, run, coat and feet. (They dont heat up as much in above 10F temps.)
Youd see lots of throwback-some favor greyhound, some husky, some GSP...all could run for hours at a nice pace.
'Late season birds will not hold for a dog that is less than 200 yards from the handler'
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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by Rockstar » Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:49 pm

SetterNut wrote:I have not been to an AA trail.
But this fall in Montana, I hunted with a Setter that has run in some. It was impressive to say the least. The dog found 6 covey of huns and some sharptail. The dog was flawless on the birds. The last covey was pointed at 1200 yards. Took us a long while to get to him, but when we got there, we walked out front, flushed and killed birds. The speed, range and stamina of this dog was special.

Sounds nice, but most late season wild birds would be long gone by the time you got to any point from a distance of 200 yards...
'Late season birds will not hold for a dog that is less than 200 yards from the handler'
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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:54 pm

Rockstar wrote:
SetterNut wrote:I have not been to an AA trail.
But this fall in Montana, I hunted with a Setter that has run in some. It was impressive to say the least. The dog found 6 covey of huns and some sharptail. The dog was flawless on the birds. The last covey was pointed at 1200 yards. Took us a long while to get to him, but when we got there, we walked out front, flushed and killed birds. The speed, range and stamina of this dog was special.

Sounds nice, but most late season wild birds would be long gone by the time you got to any point from a distance of 200 yards...
This is not my experience with a good dog that has had experience with the birds.

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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by Rockstar » Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:57 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Rockstar wrote:
SetterNut wrote:I have not been to an AA trail.
But this fall in Montana, I hunted with a Setter that has run in some. It was impressive to say the least. The dog found 6 covey of huns and some sharptail. The dog was flawless on the birds. The last covey was pointed at 1200 yards. Took us a long while to get to him, but when we got there, we walked out front, flushed and killed birds. The speed, range and stamina of this dog was special.

Sounds nice, but most late season wild birds would be long gone by the time you got to any point from a distance of 200 yards...
This is not my experience with a good dog that has had experience with the birds.

Ezzy

Pheasants and Sharpies will not hold for a 1000 yard dog, late season especially.
Most grouse wont either.

Youve not hunted these species enough.
'Late season birds will not hold for a dog that is less than 200 yards from the handler'
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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:07 pm

Rockstar wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
Rockstar wrote:
Sounds nice, but most late season wild birds would be long gone by the time you got to any point from a distance of 200 yards...
This is not my experience with a good dog that has had experience with the birds.

Ezzy

Pheasants and Sharpies will not hold for a 1000 yard dog, late season especially.
Most grouse wont either. Youve not hunted these species enough.
May I ask if there is anything you are not an expert at including knowing how much experience and knowledge the rest of have? You have posted you have greater experience at hunting and trapping. You have to been real active 24/7 to pass up so many of us that have been here a lot more years than you have.

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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by topher40 » Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:10 pm

Rockstar-
Have you ever hunted via horseback? You can close the gap quick. Pheasants here in Ks will hold, even those late season roosters if you have a good enough dog to hold them.
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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by Rockstar » Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:14 pm

ezzy333 wrote: May I ask if there is anything you are not an expert at including knowing how much experience and knowledge the rest of have? You have posted you have greater experience at hunting and trapping. You have to been real active 24/7 to pass up so many of us that have been here a lot more years than you have.

Ezzy

Ask my wife...

Been stuck at home with sick kids = more time posting.

Im only an expert at that which Ive done...
Ive also accumulated some knowledge from watching video too, and deciphering data-like all the false unproductives points at Ames, and the small percentage of actual game found, for the 5000 or so released birds prior to the event.
Last edited by Rockstar on Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
'Late season birds will not hold for a dog that is less than 200 yards from the handler'
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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by SetterNut » Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:17 pm

topher40 wrote:Rockstar-
Have you ever hunted via horseback? You can close the gap quick. Pheasants here in Ks will hold, even those late season roosters if you have a good enough dog to hold them.

I have only hunted wild pheasants in KS for a few decades with pointing dogs. A good experience dog will do just fine on late season pheasants. Do some birds blow out on the dog, yes, but that happens to good dogs that work at 50 yards too.
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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by Rockstar » Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:18 pm

topher40 wrote:Rockstar-
Have you ever hunted via horseback? .
Never.
My dog does seem to not like horses.. And I think its pretty unsafe in general ie guns, horses, dogs, birds and trying to limit.. not a good mix. I prefer walking.




You can close the gap quick.
Im sure late season phez and sharpies just cant wait for you to dismount and raise your gun after cantering your horse to a quick stop to the dogs point.


Pheasants here in Ks will hold, even those late season roosters if you have a good enough dog to hold them
Im sure in those coveys of hundreds of KS birds, the phez hold great, especially cold, windry days.
Not spooky at all.
Last edited by Rockstar on Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
'Late season birds will not hold for a dog that is less than 200 yards from the handler'
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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by Rockstar » Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:20 pm

SetterNut wrote:
topher40 wrote:Rockstar-
Have you ever hunted via horseback? You can close the gap quick. Pheasants here in Ks will hold, even those late season roosters if you have a good enough dog to hold them.

I have only hunted wild pheasants in KS for a few decades with pointing dogs. A good experience dog will do just fine on late season pheasants. .
Agreed

Do some birds blow out on the dog, yes, but that happens to good dogs that work at 50 yards too.
You can get in position for a shot attempt with a close working dog on phez.
1000 yard dog =Not so much.

Im not a Guide in the Dakotas, but when I hunted there, they seem they prefer Labs and close working pointing dogs.

They must not know what theyre doing.
'Late season birds will not hold for a dog that is less than 200 yards from the handler'
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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by Chukar12 » Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:22 pm

...the term "ignorance is bliss" was made popular before internet forums, I think that "ignorance is annoying" is more apropos now

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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by Rockstar » Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:26 pm

Chukar12 wrote:...the term "ignorance is bliss" was made popular before internet forums, I think that "ignorance is annoying" is more apropos now
Chukar12,

Could you help me with the Ames results-especially in the finding department?
It seems we have thousands of birds released in addition to the resident popuation of 5000, but only a few hundreds finds.

And that unproductive pointing thing too...Ive not really been able to digest that either.

Im sorry, Im not bowing at the altar of trialing. Its ignorance is what it is.
Last edited by Rockstar on Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by topher40 » Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:26 pm

Rockstar wrote:
topher40 wrote:Rockstar-
Have you ever hunted via horseback? .
Never.
My dog does seem to not like horses.. And I think its pretty unsafe in general ie guns, horses, dogs, birds and trying to limit.. not a good mix. I prefer walking.




You can close the gap quick.
The "I think" part is right. You can think something although facts prove otherwise. After hunting off of HB you wont ever want to go back no matter how "unsafe" you thought it was before experiencing it. :roll:

Im sure late season phez and sharpies just cant wait for you to dismount and raise your gun after cantering your horse to a quick stop to the dogs point.


Pheasants here in Ks will hold, even those late season roosters if you have a good enough dog to hold them
Im sure in those coveys of hundreds of KS birds, the phez hold great, especially cold, windry days.
Not spooky at all.
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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by Chukar12 » Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:28 pm

Rockstar,
No I cannot help you...It will ruin the entertainment value on too many levels
Last edited by Chukar12 on Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by topher40 » Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:29 pm

Back to the original posters question refer to my original post.

"folks just dont know what they dont know"
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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by SetterNut » Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:31 pm

It takes a lot more skill for a pointing dog to hunt pheasants than a flushing dog. (this is not to say that flushing dogs don't have skill,it just a different skill set) With a pointing dog you are not shooting anything that is not handled by the dog properly. Meaning if the dog flushes the bird, you do not shoot.

I can tell you that late season WIHA pheasant hunting is KS is at the top of the difficulty scale for a pointing dog. It's tough, but thats why many of us like it. Its the dog work that is most important to me in shooting a pheasant.

But I can tell you that a big running setter or pointer will put you in plenty of birds, but you are going to be covering lots of ground. This is not walking the cattails and putting up clouds of birds.
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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by Rockstar » Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:36 pm

This is Last Years AMES Trial on video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9FukGHrhm0



I love the part of Singing to the dogs, while they are running on the edge of cover, rarely entering cover-The blanks add the effect too. Spotters, garmins, And the released poultry....

If thats not like hunting, I dont know what is.

Please dont get me wrong, I think its fine.
Its just not for me, and apparently alot of others who have little interest in this type of affair.




Id like your thoughts on this opinion piece (NO Copyright, Ezzy)


Wild Pheasants and Field Trial Dogs - Good or Bad? - Part II
by Tom Ness


Reprinted by permission in Field Magazine, for information regarding obtaining a subscription please visit - http://www.sitf.com/subscribe.html


Last issue I promised to detail some of the situations where I find wild birds particularly helpful. Hunting and training on wild birds speeds up the experience process, no doubt, but it is definitely a two edged sword. A famous field trial trainer told me of the electronic dog training collar, “it won’t make a good trainer out of a bad one”. Certainly this is the case with wild birds-in fact; a half trained dog that might sneak through a field trial will be a raving lunatic after 30 seconds in a CRP field full of wild birds and the wrong handler.
A veteran trialer once made a statement at a trial banquet that hunting dogs had to be trained better than the average trial dog. At the time, I knew little and thought he was full of it. Today, I realize how wise he was. Wild birds are a source of RED HOT scent. As are rabbit pens, quail johnny houses and a number of other man-made training devices that supply similar stimulations to gundogs and their trainers.

Wild birds behave differently than their pen raised brethren. They must become very adapt at avoiding predators, they have to, something invariably tries to kill them every day of their lives. As bird hunting season goes on it becomes increasing difficult to get “bird off the end of the dogs nose” type contact as once the birds sense danger they start escape maneuvers.
In our area where we have “oceans” of CRP most birds will run a ways and then fly off to safety. There may be a few that duck in and hide, particularly when we are working diverse covers, such as brush, cattail or creek bottoms, but mostly they flush well ahead of the dog. I’ve often been puzzled when I saw a dog penalized at a trial for doing a great job on a runner but failing to produce. Although, it certainly can be the right call, I’ve seen many a rooster sprint a hundred yards then fly off just above the grass.

Late summer/early fall is the best time of year for strictly gathering experience on finding and flushing birds. The young of the year are less educated and it is not unusual to get many, many finds and flushes. This really teaches a dog how to find game.
It is also a great way to reinforce the steadiness of young dogs. It’s not difficult to get a dozen or more contacts for each dog, depending on how many
we take out. The dogs really learn the sequence; the bird gets up, my butt goes to the ground, the blank gun fires, then the boss will tell me what to do. When we get into a brood of young birds they may be dispersed over a fairly large area and some will fly without being closely pressured by the dog. I insist on the dog hupping every time it sees a bird in the air. So, they also become very reliable on honoring, as they see many birds get up and fly that they are not allowed to retrieve. I try to mix wild bird training with more traditional field trial type training where I plant and shoot pigeon, least the dog quit watching his birds fly off and his marking suffers.

In addition to filling my dog’s memory with bird finding data, wild birds also allow me to work on specific dog problems. I take gun nervous prospects into a field crawling with birds. When they are right in the thick of things, I fire the blank gun. If the dog falls apart, I needn’t waste any more of my client’s money or my time. This is a great opportunity to evaluate a dog with a weak find. If they don’t go at the wild game like a guided missile, chances are great that they never will blow out a bird that is covered with human scent.


I’ve also found wild birds to be very helpful in dealing with “trial wise” dogs. I believe that most of these dogs are not really “trial wise”, although some surely are. Many dogs just get very excited when they get to a field trial. They have learned that when they are very excited they don’t necessarily have to listen to the whistle commands. I take these dogs to a spot that is full of birds. I try to keep the dog absolutely screwed down while I work on the three basic whistles. If I blow that whistle to turn, come back or stop, then, by thunder he had better do it now.

Should the dog ignore me I say nothing, but in the next millisecond I am bearing down on him to apply an appropriate correction. Certainly, some dogs require a more vigorous correction than others but I try never to be harsh or cruel, just insistent. In this situation; the ground covered with dog training scent, birds coming up everywhere and absolute control being enforced, most dogs soon settle down and learn to go about their work.
Should they not, I’d turn up the heat on the correction and at some point decide that this dog does not belong in the gene pool, at least around here. There is NOTHING that they will find at a field trial that will be anything like this excitement wise. I try to do this kind of training well in advance of any trials, then switch to traditional training on planted pigeons just before the trial. This settles my charge back down and a field trial is as easy as a walk in the park.

One situation where I find wild birds absolutely perfect is teaching a dog to deal with running game. This works better on older birds-- lots of dog training scent but not red hot, as the birds have already exited. As a dog hits scent and begins to work it out, I move up and give the hup command. Should he comply, I go to him and give him a pat and tell him what a good boy he is and command him to get on. Should he ignore me, I go right to him and make him mind. As with any training this must be governed by common sense and not overdone.

I find wild birds to be a wonderful tool to train dogs on. Is it for you, who knows? It might just be worth a trip to the prairie to find out. [/quote]
Last edited by Rockstar on Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
'Late season birds will not hold for a dog that is less than 200 yards from the handler'
-Slistoe 12-26-12

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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by slistoe » Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:40 pm

Rockstar wrote:
Im only an expert at that which Ive done...
Ive also accumulated some knowledge from watching video too, and deciphering data-like all the false unproductives points at Ames, and the small percentage of actual game found, for the 5000 or so released birds prior to the event.
Sounds like you are real armchair expert - equally inept at all things. Have you actually read the study?

Late season birds will hold for a good dog that gets them pinned. Late season birds will not hold for a dog that is less than 200 yards from the handler - they will flush from the handler long before the dog gets them pinned.
But then, what do I know. I am not the expert...

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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by Rockstar » Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:44 pm

slistoe wrote:
Rockstar wrote:
Im only an expert at that which Ive done...
Ive also accumulated some knowledge from watching video too, and deciphering data-like all the false unproductives points at Ames, and the small percentage of actual game found, for the 5000 or so released birds prior to the event.
Sounds like you are real armchair expert - equally inept at all things. Have you actually read the study?

Late season birds will hold for a good dog that gets them pinned. Late season birds will not hold for a dog that is less than 200 yards from the handler - they will flush from the handler long before the dog gets them pinned.
But then, what do I know. I am not the expert...

Ive read how Many Birds are released PRIOR to the trial, Slistoe.
Unless you cant do simple division and subtraction, you can reach similar conclusions as me, or any high school grad that can think critically.


And Im glad to know that late season birds wont hold for any dog ranging less than 200 yards.
Now that is a gem.
Surely these survivor birds must be waiting for a 1000# horse to come up on a canter, and the rider to dismount before they flush.
'Late season birds will not hold for a dog that is less than 200 yards from the handler'
-Slistoe 12-26-12

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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by jcbuttry8 » Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:11 pm

So, from what you have posted, it sounds as though you have not been to a trial or hunted behind a good dog. You really should try both before you go get diarrhea of the mouth on a gundog forum.

Joe

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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by dan v » Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:23 pm

Sounds alot like somebody else that had posting privileges. This thread went from what an AA pointer was to chatting up Ames.
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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by Rockstar » Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:38 pm

jcbuttry8 wrote:So, from what you have posted, it sounds as though you have not been to a trial or hunted behind a good dog. You really should try both before you go get diarrhea of the mouth on a gundog forum.

Joe
If I judge a limit of birds, and decent dogwork-finds & pins runners, relocates well when needed, recovering all birds shot, and finds birds otherwise left for dead from other other dogs inability to find cripples, than yes, Ive hunted been lucky enough to hunt behind and owned some decent dogs.

Im Sorry the truth is not polite...and that you have to equate it with diarrhea.


This poster was actually very honest about trialing and his experiences..
Scott Berg
"Is a field trail the best measure of wild bird finding and handling.
If it were, we would determine the winner by counting finds. We don’t do that for a variety of reasons in sanctioned trials.
I had a dog with 7 wild bird finds in a Championship on the prairie who lost to a dog with one find. That dog had a better race and more range.
My dog who was a CH did not have an adequate ground race that day. We could go through a long explanation of why this is the case but for our purposes here it suffices to say that any single field trial is not the ultimate test of relative wild bird ability.
A field trial career is a significantly different thing. However, we tend to place great value on winning a prestigious event and an average bird dog that was exceptional in the other traits evaluated in a trial could easily win a couple major CHs over the course of his/her lifetime.

The value of any trial in terms of evaluating bird dogs is the simple premise that they provide a selection process that evaluates many to identify the best 2 or 3. All of the formats have their +/-. Even though we have trialed a fair amount, we have always felt the best wild bird evaluation is done in workouts and hunting a variety of wild birds.'
Last edited by Rockstar on Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:46 pm, edited 4 times in total.
'Late season birds will not hold for a dog that is less than 200 yards from the handler'
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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by Rockstar » Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:43 pm

Wyndancer wrote:Sounds alot like somebody else that had posting privileges. This thread went from what an AA pointer was to chatting up Ames.
Sorry It got sidetracked.
The issue of range came up...in hunting Some wild birds at Some times of the season, this may or may not be advantageous, in the opinion of many.

I would like to get the topic back on target.

I presume a good AA dog has alot of good stretch and run?
I see many breeders selling foot hunting dogs that dont have the range/run for an AA Dog, so that is what I base part of my statement on.

This of course, in addition to high head, endurance, snappy run, manners, styled tail as well?
Im sure there are others..
'Late season birds will not hold for a dog that is less than 200 yards from the handler'
-Slistoe 12-26-12

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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by Stoneface » Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:44 pm

I'm far from being on one side or the other here, but one thing I do think that needs to be accounted for in that 5,000 released birds is that they were quail and quail covey up. If they release that many birds and we estimate they covey into groups of 10 (would probably be more, though) that would make for a total of 500 possible finds, but depending on how they release them there is probably a great chance that a lot of those birds move off the course. So, if you think that there are a total of, maybe, 350 covies on the course (at least at the beginning of the trial) and there are a couple hundred finds on the entire 18,000+ acre grounds, that doesn't sounds too terrible to me.
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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by kensfishing » Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:47 pm

topher40 wrote:The best answer is, GO WATCH ONE. Dont watch some guys dog that "says" this is an AA dog. Go with someone that does it, that has placements with their dogs, and you WILL know the difference within a matter of seconds.
Great answer. I've judged many an AA. And some people's AA dogs aren't a true AA run. Some courses can't contain a true AA dog. So judges have a hard time telling one from another.

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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by Rockstar » Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:48 pm

Stoneface wrote:I'm far from being on one side or the other here, but one thing I do think that needs to be accounted for in that 5,000 released birds is that they were quail and quail covey up. If they release that many birds and we estimate they covey into groups of 10 (would probably be more, though) that would make for a total of 500 possible finds, but depending on how they release them there is probably a great chance that a lot of those birds move off the course. So, if you think that there are a total of, maybe, 350 covies on the course (at least at the beginning of the trial) and there are a couple hundred finds on the entire 18,000+ acre grounds, that doesn't sounds too terrible to me.
Ames releases 5000 birds IN Addition TO the Thousands (5000-10000??) birds managed there for the specific purpose of trial events.
Check your math again.

Singles are routinely pointed. See the video I linked of Ames.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9FukGHrhm0



See any coveys?
'Late season birds will not hold for a dog that is less than 200 yards from the handler'
-Slistoe 12-26-12

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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by Rockstar » Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:52 pm

From AMES, this is in the Summer, long before trial time, and speaks for just part of their managed quail operation.


National Field Trial Champion Association
September 7, 2005
This year begins the 4th year of our quail release program and it was decided by Plantation staff to try an earlier season release thus providing the quail with more cover and 6 weeks to adjust to their new surroundings before grooming begins on the courses for the field trial season ahead.
The first week of September was selected and today Sept. 7th - 3,200 quail were released in coveys of 20 birds per covey at 160 different locations on the Ames field trial courses from 6:00 a.m. to 11:00 a.m. Plantation staff released 80 coveys on each of the morning and afternoon field trial courses.
The quail this year were 14 weeks of age when released, compared to 12 weeks of age when released during the 3 previous years.
These birds were vaccinated for Avian Pox when they were 5 weeks of age compared to 12 weeks of age in our previous releases. In the past, our pre-release program occurred around the first week of October, which did not allow much time for the quail to adjust to the wild before cover removal began, thus increasing their susceptibility to predation. Hopefully this change will be beneficial to their overall survival and assist them in learning to fly better and more often.

Further work at Ames Plantation revealed that released quail survived in numbers far exceeding original biologist’s estimates and contrary to much of the work that has been done with quail rang-wide. The first year approximately 45% of t he birds were available to the field trials. Pen-raised birds not only nested, but also produced successful nests at a rate that reasonably equaled wild populations.
'Late season birds will not hold for a dog that is less than 200 yards from the handler'
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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by Rockstar » Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:57 pm

Ames Plantation impresses with bird dog field trials
Dogs show strong quail population
By Bryan Brasher

Sunday, February 26, 2012

GRAND JUNCTION, Tenn. -- Years from now, field-trialing enthusiasts will remember Connor's EZ Button as the winner of the 2012 National Championships for Field Trialing Bird Dogs at Ames Plantation.
But the real winner of this year's championship event was Ames Plantation itself and the many Ames employees who have worked hard to establish and maintain a strong population of bobwhite quail on the 18,000-acre paradise in Fayette and Hardeman counties.

Though Connor's EZ Button won the competition with a modest total of six finds, dogs throughout the field pointed quail as consistently as they have during any championship event in recent memory.
In eight days, 34 dogs pointed quail 91 times, and only three dogs finished their braces without a find.

"I really felt like it was excellent trial," said Dr. Rick Carlisle, superintendent of Ames Plantation and chief organizer for the national championship. "There was a lot of bird work from start to finish, and everything just seemed really consistent."

Lester's Storm set the bar with five finds during the first brace on Feb. 13, and several dogs equaled that mark during the braces that followed.
Poison had five finds during the morning brace on Valentine's Day, and LJ Confidential and Lester's Tom Cruise had five apiece that afternoon. Then on Feb. 16, the 2008 national championship winner Lester's Snowatch had five finds and two unproductive points.



91 Points.....mostly singles judging by video.
And 5000 released birds + Managed birds...that sound like alot?
'Late season birds will not hold for a dog that is less than 200 yards from the handler'
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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by SetterNut » Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:59 pm

What does the number of birds released at a Trial have to do with anything?

Look its real simple, dogs come in all styles, skill levels, range,.... some fit your style of hunting, bird and cover, and some don't.

But don't, tell the people that run, train and hunt a certain type of dog what they can and can't do.
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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by SCT » Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:59 pm

SetterNut wrote:I have not been to an AA trail.
But this fall in Montana, I hunted with a Setter that has run in some. It was impressive to say the least. The dog found 6 covey of huns and some sharptail. The dog was flawless on the birds. The last covey was pointed at 1200 yards. Took us a long while to get to him, but when we got there, we walked out front, flushed and killed birds. The speed, range and stamina of this dog was special.
I wish I could have been there Setternut. I love big running dogs and hunting behind them, and it sounds like he was/is a very nice broke dog. Sometimes it takes witnessing for yourself that kind of experience to believe it can happen. But also, to really appreciate the beauty of it. Most people go through life never even owning a "broke" gundog, let alone one of that character, thanks for sharing. I imagine you were not on flat enough ground to see him slam on point though? Nor binoculars in hand? I can live with that. My dogs are out of sight a fair amount of the time. Some people just can't stomach it.

I've had pointers with different ranges, never found a difference in their ability to locate and point birds. I'd just rather watch the bigger ranging dogs hunt. Just a personal preference.

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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by slistoe » Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:05 pm

Wyndancer wrote:Sounds alot like somebody else that had posting privileges. This thread went from what an AA pointer was to chatting up Ames.
Next thing you know we will be hearing about how many birds he could find if he was to take his dogs to Ames to hunt.

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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by RayGubernat » Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:05 pm

Joe and Dan -

C'mon guys. Don't spoil everyone's fun. It is a cold an rainy night here. Rockstar is providing a high level of comic relief. I'm lovin' it more than a three stooges marathon. He cracks me up.

C'mon Rockstar...tell us more. PUHLEEEZE!!! Don't let those big bad guys on this forum scare you off. Just because some of them have decades of expereince hunting and trialing all over the US shouln't give you the slightest pause. We all know you are the fount of all knowledge as it pertains to birds, bird dogs, hunting and trialing.

Keep on telling us what the truth is. I haven't laughed this much in a loooooong time. The thing that makes me laugh the most is that you have reminded me that... once upon a time, I was even more sure than you seem to be...that I knew all the answers too!!

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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by Rockstar » Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:07 pm

I dont think I could do any worse with my meat dog, Slistoe.




From Ames
http://www.amesplantation.org/field-tri ... efault.asp

'Statistics recorded by Ames Plantation staff riding during the 3 trials were interesting.
During the Amateur Quail Championship in December, both the dogs and gallery moved a total of 39 coveys of quail in 5 ½ days. The dogs found 13 coveys on the morning course and 16 on the afternoon course for a total of 29.
The gallery rode up the other 10 coveys in the middle of the course.
The dogs only had 9 unproductives during this trial. House’s Delta Dawn scored 3 finds in 90 minutes to win the championship while Tennessee Titan had 4 finds in securing runner-up.

The Ames Amateur recorded the fewest number of finds and/or coveys of any of the 3 trials.
The dogs only found 16 coveys of quail the entire week while the gallery flushed 3 different coveys.
Half of the dogs entered in the All-Age stake did not complete their hour of competition which definitely affects bird finding capabilities.
Each of the winners had a single find and are as follows: 1st) House’s Delta Dawn, 2nd) Tennessee Titan and 3rd) Mac’s Dakota Hawk. Dry weather conditions persisted throughout this trial with warmer than normal temperatures for January.

Those same weather conditions continued for the first part of the Hobart Ames Memorial All-Age stake.
There were 58 dogs entered in the All-Age stake and 33 of those were either lost and/or picked up early during their hour of competition.
The dogs found a total of 20 coveys and the gallery rode up 9.
Unproductives were up 100% compared to the 2 previous trials with a total of 20 UP’s for the dogs.'
'Late season birds will not hold for a dog that is less than 200 yards from the handler'
-Slistoe 12-26-12

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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by SetterNut » Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:07 pm

SCT wrote:
SetterNut wrote:I have not been to an AA trail.
But this fall in Montana, I hunted with a Setter that has run in some. It was impressive to say the least. The dog found 6 covey of huns and some sharptail. The dog was flawless on the birds. The last covey was pointed at 1200 yards. Took us a long while to get to him, but when we got there, we walked out front, flushed and killed birds. The speed, range and stamina of this dog was special.
I wish I could have been there Setternut. I love big running dogs and hunting behind them, and it sounds like he was/is a very nice broke dog. Sometimes it takes witnessing for yourself that kind of experience to believe it can happen. But also, to really appreciate the beauty of it. Most people go through life never even owning a "broke" gundog, let alone one of that character, thanks for sharing. I imagine you were not on flat enough ground to see him slam on point though? Nor binoculars in hand? I can live with that. My dogs are out of sight a fair amount of the time. Some people just can't stomach it.

I've had pointers with different ranges, never found a difference in their ability to locate and point birds. I'd just rather watch the bigger ranging dogs hunt. Just a personal preference.

Steve

I had been hunting with some dogs that I considerd big running of eastern Ks. Dogs that are out several hundred yards. Great dogs.
But a dog that has the physical tools and is raised out in big prairie country is a different scale of big running. At 1200 yards I could not find the dog. We were high on a hillside and the dog was across the valley. I don't know how people ever hunted dogs like this before tracking collars.

The dog was broke, even when my pup took after the birds after the shot. Thats broke.
Last edited by SetterNut on Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by Rockstar » Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:09 pm

RayGubernat wrote:Joe and Dan -

C'mon guys. Don't spoil everyone's fun. It is a cold an rainy night here. Rockstar is providing a high level of comic relief. I'm lovin' it more than a three stooges marathon. He cracks me up.

C'mon Rockstar...tell us more. PUHLEEEZE!!! Don't let those big bad guys on this forum scare you off. Just because some of them have decades of expereince hunting and trialing all over the US shouln't give you the slightest pause. We all know you are the fount of all knowledge as it pertains to birds, bird dogs, hunting and trialing.

Keep on telling us what the truth is. I haven't laughed this much in a loooooong time. The thing that makes me laugh the most is that you have reminded me that... once upon a time, I was even more sure than you seem to be...that I knew all the answers too!!

RayG

Ray
All I do is crunch the data and dont know if I should laugh or cry.

At least you guys in the 'trial club' can keep telling yourselves youre breeding 'hunting dogs'
'Late season birds will not hold for a dog that is less than 200 yards from the handler'
-Slistoe 12-26-12

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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by Chukar12 » Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:15 pm

jetjockey wrote:How long do they go, and what separates them from other AA dogs in other breeds? I have my opinions, but I'm curious as to what others think. I hear stories of 3/4 mile casts, but who's actually seen a 3/4 mile cast?
I think its interesting that a number of people who know, describe it as needing to be seen. The answer seems patronizing on the surface but I do believe putting it in words is difficult. Distance is not the metric, and most people want a hard fast numerical rule that they can latch on to. See the number of people that measure their dog work by only kills, finds et al... When I watch an all-age performer I see a confident but cooperative independence. I don't see them or the people that run them of the ilk that would describe the dog as "just trying to please me" they seem more realistic than that. the pointers run by pros or the top amateurs are exceptional physical specimens. In the movie Secretariat they used the following biblical reference, and I will take the heat for my romantic notions...
Do you give the horse his strength or clothe his neck with a flowing mane?

Do you make him leap like a locust, striking terror with his proud snorting?

He paws fiercely, rejoicing in his strength, and charges into the fray.

He laughs at fear, afraid of nothing; he does not shy away from the sword.

The quiver rattles against his side, along with the flashing spear and lance.

In frenzied excitement he eats up the ground; he cannot stand still when the trumpet sounds
Jet, to me there are 4 or 5 dogs every year at the Brittany nationals that are capable of unbeatable performances in relation to the rest of the field, they don't always win or even place, but the dogs display ability beyond the measurable results and not just on their best day. If I compare those dogs to the AA field in a regular weekend trial at an AFTCA or an AF event they could be competitive...assuming, health, conditioning and more importantly competent scouts and handlers. If I recall the AA championship or two that I watched...I start waffling about the odds continental AA dogs have against pointers in particular. And though I have uncharacteristically went the long way around the barn... these dogs start with a larger pool of dogs with the athletic ability and inclination to perform and they are generally handled by a team more dedicated to the process and the result.

I have Britts all the time make 3/4 mile casts hunting in Nevada, there isn't much to stop them other than a bird...3/4 of a mile is a couple minutes of loping for a dog, they can see and hear for a long ways in the open and its reasonable for them to reach objectives like that and then move to the next. Some of the best moves are never seen...the dog was here and he shows up there, its a concept that many cannot conceive because the control is assumed to be missing.

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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by topher40 » Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:16 pm

Rockstar-
You obliously dont know much about bird dogs, especially trial dogs. How many folks to you talk to and tout their "birddog" is out of "two dogs humping"? No they all state my dog is out this and that FC ch? You will never see someone brag about a dog that is unproven and trialing helps the sport. ALL my dogs are hunted more than trialed, imagine that. I thought trial dogs were relegated to the kennel for most of the year. Dont be ignorant.
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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by Rockstar » Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:25 pm

This is direct from Ames,
Ames of course, is the pinnacle of hunting dogdom, on managed grounds- that means predators are managed, food is managed, herbicides are managed, cover is managed.




Quail
Rick Carlisle Director, Ames Plantation.
Typically derby dogs don’t find; they’re just running.
This year they had finds to observe; we had dogs with good races; so they put it all together – which is what they’re supposed to do. Often, with derby dogs, judges have to judge on how well the dogs run they races since they may not have finds.”


I wont even mention that 40% of all points are Unproductives.
So much for that 200+ yard range, slistoe...
'Late season birds will not hold for a dog that is less than 200 yards from the handler'
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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by Chukar12 » Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:35 pm

I wonder what a conversation about performance dogs with this guy would look like?
Image

or
a conversation about competition with this guy?
Image

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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by SetterNut » Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:48 pm

Rockstar wrote: I wont even mention that 40% of all points are Unproductives.
So much for that 200+ yard range, slistoe...
You got any video of you and your dog hunting, it would be a big help to those of us that have less "great dog" experience.
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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by Rockstar » Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:04 pm

I really dont think video Hunting wild birds will excite you, especially of close-medium ranging hunting dogs,
They rarely get out more than 150 yards. But they work for me.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YWe4FZd ... r_embedded






This thread on AA Dogs got hijacked unintentionally, my apologies.
I started a new thread on RANGE, and will not use my own words, but those of Breeders of Pointer kennels and studies.
'Late season birds will not hold for a dog that is less than 200 yards from the handler'
-Slistoe 12-26-12

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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by Chukar12 » Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:15 pm

Rockstar wrote:I really dont think video Hunting wild birds will excite you, especially of close-medium ranging hunting dogs,
They rarely get out more than 150 yards. But they work for me.
Pardon me for asking...is this video of you hunting "wild birds" on location at this Orvis endorsed ranch in Utah?

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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by mask » Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:31 pm

One reason for unproductives is because ames type dogs are trained to stop at first scent, if no birds are flushed the dog is ask to relocate. If a dog moves without being signaled to do so you might as well pick him up. Sometimes pen raised birds just wander off and other odd stuff happens. I have been to ames once and I know three trainers that qualify dogs almost every year. Most dogs cannot stand the pressure the training puts on them. The trip to ames is worth going and I would recommend it. If you have not seen true AA dogs compete you should it is a beautiful sight. Big running field trial dogs and big running hunting dogs are usually a horse of a differdnt color.

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Re: What is an AA pointer?

Post by SetterNut » Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:35 pm

Rockstar wrote:I really dont think video Hunting wild birds will excite you, especially of close-medium ranging hunting dogs,
They rarely get out more than 150 yards. But they work for me.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YWe4FZd ... r_embedded


This thread on AA Dogs got hijacked unintentionally, my apologies.
I started a new thread on RANGE, and will not use my own words, but those of Breeders of Pointer kennels and studies.

That you and your dogs? Thats a nice place to hunt released birds, at least I assume they are released birds as hens got shot.
Steve

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