keg creek cooper breed to hanshaws out on bail

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:15 pm

I've bit my tongue long enough. You are up in arms about this female out on bail having white/ lemon pups . yet you turn around and breed her for what!!! If the white and lemon is small -e and the pups DNA as the sire you say makes your female a small-e carrier. All you have done is set somone else up down the road for the same heartbreak you suffer

Hunter · Post by **Hunter** » Wed Dec 26, 2012 10:48 pm

I questioned the exact same thing before all test reports were back from where ever they were sent.

Hanshaw · Post by **Hanshaw** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:56 am

I no Cally is a e carrier coopers not

NC Quailhunter · Post by **NC Quailhunter** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:37 pm

Then why breed her again?

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:29 pm

It is done all the time, only have a chance of 25% being a carrier and there will not be any Orange and white pups, get pups tested and disclose that they may be a carrier..... No big deal.

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:44 pm

ultracarry wrote:It is done all the time, only have a chance of 25% being a carrier and there will not be any Orange and white pups, get pups tested and disclose that they may be a carrier..... No big deal.

Attitude like yours is why we have the small-e around today!!!

mask · Post by **mask** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:09 pm

I know nothing about gsp's or their breeding, what is small-e?

bb560m · Post by **bb560m** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:16 pm

How come Cooper took so long to finish his FC?

Fieldmaster · Post by **Fieldmaster** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:26 pm

Carrier to Non Carrier
50% could be carriers / 50% non carriers

Carrier to Carrier
50% Clean
25% carriers
25% effected

kensfishing · Post by **kensfishing** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:09 pm

bb560m wrote:How come Cooper took so long to finish his FC?

These answers will be interesting. I've known Cooper since he was a puppy, in fact I think I was judging when he finished his FC.

bb560m · Post by **bb560m** » Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:36 pm

kensfishing wrote:
bb560m wrote:How come Cooper took so long to finish his FC?
These answers will be interesting. I've known Cooper since he was a puppy, in fact I think I was judging when he finished his FC.

I'm not inferring anything or even know the dog - just genuinely want to know. He gets bred a decent amount, but didn't finish his FC until he was like 6 or 7? Maybe I'm missing something.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:33 am

Ms. Cage wrote:
ultracarry wrote:It is done all the time, only have a chance of 25% being a carrier and there will not be any Orange and white pups, get pups tested and disclose that they may be a carrier..... No big deal.
Attitude like yours is why we have the small-e around today!!!

Should we put down or fix all the carriers that are proven bird dogs and pass up breeding to them? Heck no! Should you have a litter with the elv the responsible thing would be to have all the pups tested before they go home, limit registration to carriers, and make sure they are educated owners. Nothing says a carrier won't produce non carriers.

MR Hill, don't you think there would be more reasons than that? Really, is that all you can come up with?

Brooks Carmichael · Post by **Brooks Carmichael** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:30 am

I am just curious, I am not saying Chuck is right or wrong in this breeding. I decided to look at the pedigrees on both the sire and "bleep". I noticed they both go back to Tonelli's Rising Sun. I not saying Sonny is the carrier but if and only if he is, does that not increase the chance of this happening again. I am only raising the question. It could come from somewhere else, I was just wondering. I am hoping this does not happen to Chuck again and his pups turn out great and hopefully none are carriers.

Will · Post by **Will** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:31 am

Fieldmaster wrote:Carrier to Non Carrier
50% could be carriers / 50% non carriers

Carrier to Carrier
50% Clean
25% carriers
25% effected

Do the same percentages apply to genetics with bad bites?

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:18 am

Should we put down or fix all the carriers that are proven bird dogs and pass up breeding to them? Heck no! Should you have a litter with the elv the responsible thing would be to have all the pups tested before they go home, limit registration to carriers, and make sure they are educated owners. Nothing says a carrier won't produce non carriers.

I think that is exactly what she was saying and she is absolutely right. I can not see any reason anyone would continue to breed a dog with a serious fault and use the excuse that it has some good qualities. There are thousands of GSP's with out the known fault that can be used. This is quite different than starting a breed where you only have a few dogs to use, but we are way way past those days.

Ezzy

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:33 am

bb560m wrote:How come Cooper took so long to finish his FC?

Is this really the proper place to ask this question?

Mods need to separate out all the junk to a different thread.

Loganmike · Post by **Loganmike** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:59 am

The percentages given for normal, carrier, and affected are correct biologically speaking. It does not matter if son y was a carrier, that does not change the per engages for this breeding. Gregor Mendel demonstrated this in the mid 1800's.

I hope this litter turns out top notch!

Cheers,
Me

RyanGSP · Post by **RyanGSP** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:55 pm

ACooper wrote:
bb560m wrote:How come Cooper took so long to finish his FC?
Is this really the proper place to ask this question?

Mods need to separate out all the junk to a different thread.

But the mods are helping pile the junk on.

campgsp · Post by **campgsp** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:15 pm

Ms. Cage I'm with you.

I don't get how you guys can go from " let's better our breeds" to "its ok to breed a bad gene". I think those who beleive the later shouldn't breed there dogs at all. I don't care if you have the top dog in the world. If it has a bad gene like e- do not I'll say it again DO NOT breed the dog.
When you breed a dog like this all your stating is that your a crook and don't care about the breed or other people who may buy from that stock down the road.

I'm so glad these are not the lines I follow. I for one would give up dogs and two black ball everyone involved. I don't have pity or mercy for this kind of recklessness. Hanshaw you choose to do what you want. But I think you are making a big mistake my friend. Very very big.

Happy new years everyone. Hopefully we can go into a new year without bad genes being put in our short hair lines.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:27 pm

There are costs to producing the better dogs for hunting and competition. even if the dog your breeding to is marginal on argued or not it will throw affected and carrier pups so long as the gene can be tested for a detected. Cull the affected pups, produce better dogs that done have the possibility to carry the trait and move on.

Unless for your standards you can get by with dogs that are decent and are not competition based where you need to produce a superior dog.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:34 pm

ultracarry wrote:There are costs to producing the better dogs for hunting and competition. even if the dog your breeding to is marginal on argued or not it will throw affected and carrier pups so long as the gene can be tested for a detected. Cull the affected pups, produce better dogs that done have the possibility to carry the trait and move on.

Unless for your standards you can get by with dogs that are decent and are not competition based where you need to produce a superior dog.

Not a superior dog but just a better trial dog.

Ezzy

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:40 pm

Superior dog makes a better trial dog.... Good try though. But I would rather breed to something that's great at hunting, points with a high tail, intense, trainable at a young age, and the better all around dog.... Should be a great trial dog also if you could manage to breed to something that throws those pups.

If I could get a breeding that produced 12 pups 10 culls and two great ones I would pay to have them fixed and give them to hunting homes every time.

campgsp · Post by **campgsp** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:19 pm

Oh so superior dogs only come from competition based lines? Huh?
Lmfao. That is the dumbest thinking I've heard today.

Here is a fact. Some of the best lines we have today have a no title dog in the pedigree. Guess what that no title dog or two or three somewhere in the pedigree who through more super pups then the title dogs.
I'm saying this because I believe that is your reasoning.
Oh my God that dog duke is a 5x ch mh CHf etc etc. He is the best so what he has pointer in his pedigree well just sell the ones that look like gsp and cull the rest.

WOW!

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:29 pm

ultracarry wrote:Superior dog makes a better trial dog.... Good try though. But I would rather breed to something that's great at hunting, points with a high tail, intense, trainable at a young age, and the better all around dog.... Should be a great trial dog also if you could manage to breed to something that throws those pups.

If I could get a breeding that produced 12 pups 10 culls and two great ones I would pay to have them fixed and give them to hunting homes every time.

Sure you would. Wonder how you are going to figure out which are which?

Ezzy

Wind Dancer Kennels · Post by **Wind Dancer Kennels** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:27 pm

If I could get a breeding that produced 12 pups 10 culls and two great ones I would pay to have them fixed and give them to hunting homes every time.[/quote]

Really???
So, you would be willing to keep an entire litter of 12 pups, feed, vaccinate, Vet care, socialize, work with on basic training, have time to take these 12 pups out a few times a week and work on birds, pattern their ground application and all of the other things that puppies need and then try to pick the best 2 out of the litter?

Then after you have made your picks, your willing to have 10 pups spayed/neutered and then the really hard part of finding 10 hunting/pet homes for your culls that may have some type of genetic problem?

All I can say is WOW!

I forgot, your going to need a 12-14 run kennel set up to house these pups when you can't give them away.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:07 pm

Really???
So, you would be willing to keep an entire litter of 12 pups, feed, vaccinate, Vet care, socialize, work with on basic training, have time to take these 12 pups out a few times a week and work on birds, pattern their ground application and all of the other things that puppies need and then try to pick the best 2 out of the litter?

I'm almost positive this is exactly his plan when he breeds his female.

rkappes · Post by **rkappes** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:11 pm

Dang....altering 10 pups would be a good chunk of $$$$$

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:11 pm

Andy, your post is all messed up. Wind Dancer was replying to Ultra's remark about the 10 of 12 pups.

Ezzy

Brooks Carmichael · Post by **Brooks Carmichael** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:03 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
ultracarry wrote:There are costs to producing the better dogs for hunting and competition. even if the dog your breeding to is marginal on argued or not it will throw affected and carrier pups so long as the gene can be tested for a detected. Cull the affected pups, produce better dogs that done have the possibility to carry the trait and move on.

Unless for your standards you can get by with dogs that are decent and are not competition based where you need to produce a superior dog.

Not a superior dog but just a better trial dog.

Ezzy

I respectfully disagree with Ezzy. The whole thing about breeding is to produce a superior dog in that breed. You want the best possible dog you can produce. There are lot of so call better trial dog. You want a superior dog so you can pass on his traits to next generation. Why over the years you have seen better and better hunting dogs in all breeds. I found consistently the best hunting dogs can be trace back to the best trial dogs out there. If it were not for breeders trying to produce that superior dog. We would not have the dogs we have today. The Germans did it and we are doing it here in U.S. I have watch how all breeds have improved over the last 40 years. It came from breeding superior dogs. We are always trying to improve the breed by breeding the best to best. That is why we line breed. Constantly taking the best traits and passing them on to next generation.

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:18 pm

Oh so superior dogs only come from competition based lines? Huh?
Lmfao. That is the dumbest thinking I've heard today.

Did he say that?

Superior dog makes a better trial dog.... Good try though. But I would rather breed to something that's great at hunting, points with a high tail, intense, trainable at a young age, and the better all around dog.... Should be a great trial dog also if you could manage to breed to something that throws those pups.

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:34 pm

Breeding superior dogs benifit us all, FTers, NAVHDA, Hunting Dogs etc. If your breeding superior dog with gentic defects or carriers are you really devolping a dog ????
IMO, NO !!! There's alot more to the development of a superior dog then performance.

Brooks Carmichael · Post by **Brooks Carmichael** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:06 pm

Ms. Cage wrote:Breeding superior dogs benifit us all, FTers, NAVHDA, Hunting Dogs etc. If your breeding superior dog with gentic defects or carriers are you really devolping a dog ????
IMO, NO !!! There's alot more to the development of a superior dog then performance.

I agree, we should never breed dogs with gentic defects. I will be the first to say. if the dog is not a bird dog he will never make a good, if not a great trial dog. He must be biddable, good nose, style, intensity, have outstanding bird finding ability and the list goes on. It is what we all strive to achieve in producing that bird dog, we all like to see. All the great dogs have seen over the years have been outstanding bird dogs. That is why all my trial dogs, I hunt when not trialing. I think by hunting the dog brings out the best in them. I love to run my dogs in wild bird trials, you really get to see what they can do in those trials it is worth all the hard work you have put in them. Just my thoughts.

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:43 pm

Brooks Carmichael wrote:I agree, we should never breed dogs with gentic defects. I will be the first to say. if the dog is not a bird dog he will never make a good, if not a great trial dog. He must be biddable, good nose, style, intensity, have outstanding bird finding ability and the list goes on. It is what we all strive to achieve in producing that bird dog, we all like to see. All the great dogs have seen over the years have been outstanding bird dogs. That is why all my trial dogs, I hunt when not trialing. I think by hunting the dog brings out the best in them. I love to run my dogs in wild bird trials, you really get to see what they can do in those trials it is worth all the hard work you have put in them. Just my thoughts.

I agree with you. We strive for a better grouse dog . my husband is a very die hard ruffed grouse hunter. Grouse hunting is his life. Testing NAVHDA and MH is just away to keep his dogs tuned up. By breeding carriers you will never eliminante genetic defects . Those that do breed carriers I honestly beleive are kennel blind. I hear all the time how folks want to better the breed. When it comes to their own dog though alot seem to justify why they should breed their carrier or gentic defective dog. Maybe some folks shouldn't be breeding when they can't pull a dog from the gene pool. What is breeding all about ? to better the breed or to fill a ego no matter the consequences the breed might suffer ? Some might say easy for you to say. unfortunatly my husband has had to pull very nice dogs from the gene pool , both a gentic defect and carriers. IMO the line of dogs in guestion has many quality dogs in it. Both the line and the breed would be better off by not breeding the carriers.

cdh · Post by **cdh** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:58 pm

This article touches on why it might be okay to breed some dogs affected by genetic problems. Kinda a interesting view point. I know its different genetic faults.
http://www.gspca.org/Health/Downloads/C ... suesLD.pdf

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:15 pm

In reference to the culls, those could just be carriers or affected pups with the gene... No need to pattern them, as long as you are not furthering the carriers that can reproduce. Some times the cost of producing a dog may be worth the risk involved. Holding onto all pups until proper testing is done if you breed known carriers would not break your bank or budget. It is reasonable to breed those dogs as long as when you sell the pups you disclose and limit registration.

There are a lot worse things to breed to than a color gene carrier. People in the vizsla world knowingly breed to a dog that throws pups with bad hips. No one says a word because of the titles it holds, pups it throws, and number of breedings it does. Yet the owners are fed a line about it was the female that threw it.

CAMPGSP:
Reading and comprehension class should be on your new years resolution list top 5. Ask a fifth grade graduate to read it and explain it to you.

campgsp · Post by **campgsp** » Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:57 pm

Brad27 this answer your question...?

Unless for your standards you can get by with dogs that are decent and are not competition based where you need to produce a superior dog.[/quote]

Thanks for the advice ultra I'll take it into consideration. :roll:

[quote="ultracarry"]It is reasonable to breed those dogs as long as when you sell the pups you disclose and limit registration.

How is this bettering your stock? You have pups and none can reproduce because of a genetic defect that you knowingly knew was there.
Great idea for bettering lines. :roll:

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:23 am

Would the color of the dog effect its hunting abilities? I think not.

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:38 am

ultracarry wrote:Some times the cost of producing a dog may be worth the risk involved. Holding onto all pups until proper testing is done if you breed known carriers would not break your bank or budget. It is reasonable to breed those dogs as long as when you sell the pups you disclose and limit registration.

Would it be more fisable to breed clean to clean. You wouldn't have to color test, sit on puppies, and everbody can go to their new home with a full registration. I beleive breeding the superior litter, not a pup or two that is superior is what breeding is about. Known as uniformaty, consitantancey.. When a number of pups from a litter have to be sold with limited reg. i sure can't call the litter superior. IMO down the tubes !!! After all, we are producing a litter .

ultracarry wrote:There are a lot worse things to breed to than a color gene carrier. People in the vizsla world knowingly breed to a dog that throws pups with bad hips. No one says a word because of the titles it holds, pups it throws, and number of breedings it does. Yet the owners are fed a line about it was the female that threw it.

To me this is no more than a justifing statement because another breed does this, this , and are told that.

Adam · Post by **Adam** » Sat Dec 29, 2012 8:56 am

So is this color a true genetic defect or is it just the crossbreeding showing up generations later?

KwikIrish · Post by **KwikIrish** » Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:07 am

Regardless of the rate in which it will produce -e carriers, when did it become okay to sidetrack a whole thread into belittling other people's breeding concepts? Perhaps when a moderator agrees with the opposing side?

Hanshaw, people might not agree to your breeding concepts but stuff like this is practiced all the time (my mind keeps taking me to the quarter horse world and the HYPP NH marker.) Being honest about what you have and not breeding to other carriers is the key. You just have to remember the risks involved when you sell the puppies who are carriers... That weight is on your shoulders, along with other breeders who knowingly take such risks. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with your decision to breed the bitch, but I just hope you are extremely responsible with the results.
Good luck, sir.

kensfishing · Post by **kensfishing** » Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:19 am

And to think, if this first post on the color of these dogs was never posted, everyone would be saying what a great breeding.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:42 am

Ms. Cage wrote:
ultracarry wrote:Some times the cost of producing a dog may be worth the risk involved. Holding onto all pups until proper testing is done if you breed known carriers would not break your bank or budget. It is reasonable to breed those dogs as long as when you sell the pups you disclose and limit registration.
Would it be more fisable to breed clean to clean. You wouldn't have to color test, sit on puppies, and everbody can go to their new home with a full registration. I beleive breeding the superior litter, not a pup or two that is superior is what breeding is about. Known as uniformaty, consitantancey.. When a number of pups from a litter have to be sold with limited reg. i sure can't call the litter superior. IMO down the tubes !!! After all, we are producing a litter .

ultracarry wrote:There are a lot worse things to breed to than a color gene carrier. People in the vizsla world knowingly breed to a dog that throws pups with bad hips. No one says a word because of the titles it holds, pups it throws, and number of breedings it does. Yet the owners are fed a line about it was the female that threw it.
To me this is no more than a justifing statement because another breed does this, this , and are told that.

A few good ones will always beat a lot of average. There are tons of average dogs being bred and tested because they can pass and be trained. You can teach a pointing dog to stand and look like a sack of garbage and get a pass on a test or standard, heck if you wanted to you could teach the darn dogs to point golf balls.

I would rather buy something from known carriers that does not possess the bad gene and get something with the probability that it is better than an average dog that does average things. I don't care if it is trial bred or hunting bred. It needs to make me say wow, I really want another.

How many breedings have you done without the color gene test ? How many pups have you produced that haven't been tested before they were sent home? Sounds like my idea of testing them all would be more responsible dontcha think?

tennquailhunter · Post by **tennquailhunter** » Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:59 am

Just curious here. I have a friend in Alabama ,he had a litter where 3 pups had a lemon color as well. He couldnt figure it out, did no testing and decided not to breed her again.i asked if he thought another dog bred her?His vet asked the same question? The next Spring another of his dogs was in and He was breeding her to the same stud, One morning he caught a E.P. from a farm 2 miles away trying to breed thru the fence his bitch was pressed up tight and they didnt lock but was about to had he not intervened. Guess what color this pointer was? and The farmer said yep his dog tends to wonder off from time to time and last year he found him just down the road not 500 yards last year about same time.

T.Q.

dead mike · Post by **dead mike** » Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:55 pm

You people are bullies, start your own thread and leave this guy alone.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:17 am

mask wrote:I know nothing about gsp's or their breeding, what is small-e?

Some of the genetic experts need to explain this to the" ready to handy" breeders. Cj

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Sun Dec 30, 2012 3:06 pm

I dont see anything wrong with this breeding as long as pups are tested to know which pups might be carriers. I am breeding my GSP to a male that is a carrier of the LD gene, the dog is an amazing animal and one of the nicest GSP's around. Its very easy to identify what pups are carriers and to take measures to make sure that carriers are not bred to carriers. It would be sad to see some very very nice GSP lines disappear because of people not being educated. JMO

Hanshaw · Post by **Hanshaw** » Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:26 am

I will be keeping the whole liter. Thanks chuck

Post by **jcbuttry8** » Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:29 pm

RyanGSP wrote:
ACooper wrote:
bb560m wrote:How come Cooper took so long to finish his FC?
Is this really the proper place to ask this question?

Mods need to separate out all the junk to a different thread.

But the mods are helping pile the junk on.

Seriously? You made it pretty clear on the other site how you feel about this site. If the contributions you have are to come here and bash all Mods then feel free to stay over there. You don't even know half the mods nor do you know me well enough to make any statements like this.

Joe

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Wed Jan 02, 2013 2:41 pm

Why does anyone care if a gsp is white and orange. If both parents are papered the pups should be registered. A good solid birddog is a good solid birddog regardless of the color and shouldn't be tossed aside or excluded from a breeding program if there ability is the desired trait that you want passed on to a litter of pups.

Hattrick · Post by **Hattrick** » Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:21 pm

My New Year resolution was to be more positive. This Forum doen't help much. I gotta run down to the liquor store and get some beer an popcorn for this Thread.
keep rolling guys