Question to the FT guys an who ever

Hattrick · Post by **Hattrick** » Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:10 pm

Ok I hope this does not fire up the day old debate whos game is better. What i would i like is onist opions on what you FT guys look for in the pups you buy to compete at the the highest level. I'm not asking what lines, breeders you have i could care less about that. But what do look you for in the picking of pups in these litters at 5,6wks up to 12 weeks old. Do you look for a 5-6 wk old pup that runs and leaves the pack by 100 or so yards thats indepened as all get out? Do look for 8-12 wk old pups that roll out to 300 -500 yds ? Or at 1yr old your dog has be 500-1000 yd dog ? Just simply what trates do they need to have to be keepers? i'm sure somethings you want them to have naturaly right out of the gate. Again this is not whos better but more on how you evuate your dogs for running the game that you play. I'm vary interested in this. I will check in as this gets going.

Post by **topher40** » Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:15 pm

I look for he blood that produces the kind of dog that I am looking for. Picking a puppy is a crap shoot with any line, breed, sex. Guys that FT and are very competitive and are so because of their willingness to go through more dogs. Life is a numbers game, no different with dogs. Not because they are any better at looking at ten puppies in the litter and picking "the one".

Hattrick · Post by **Hattrick** » Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:42 pm

topher40 What do you see naturaly from ur keeper dogs ?

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:44 pm

I'm only starting to get into field trialing if things go well, but I want the same things in my hunting dogs as I would in a field trial prospect. Also, I wouldn't even bother getting a pup now from a breeder or line without knowing what traits I can expect given to them from the parents. Probably why I like tightly line bred pointers from a certain line. With this in mind, I don't really have to pick a certain pup out of a litter because I know by the time it matters how they perform, they will be very similar the their littermates.

I like a pup that is alert and aware of it's surroundings. A pup that has lots of point and points scent early in life. A pup that is bold and adventurous, but loves people and especially me and want's to be with me. A pup that will grow up to have nothing but hunting on it's mind (once the edge is off), and will hunt all day without ever considering quitting. A pup that looks good running and pointing and that their only thoughts are to find birds. I like a pup with a straight skeleton that would be good breeding stock if I so desire to breed him/her. I like a pup that's quiet around the yard and easy to keep, a pup that's calm when you need them to be.

Just a few things to start with,

Steve

Post by **topher40** » Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:46 pm

As a pup? Nothing. Everyone ( for the most part) is looking for the same thing from a dog though. Drive, desire, nose, run, attitude, (personally I dont like liver dogs) so color and breeding. You dont know what your getting froma dog till that pup becomes just that, a DOG. Again, breeding breeding breeding helps provide most of these things although they arent always there with even the best breeding.

Post by **topher40** » Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:48 pm

SCT-
some of my best dogs were leftovers from the litter that no one else wanted. One in particular I own at the moment and will make a REAL run at her first Championship this year. I would be suprised if she doesnt. Goes to show you that you dont know when your a picking a pup, because unb fact, you dont know.

Hattrick · Post by **Hattrick** » Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:00 pm

Topher how much time are you willing to give a dog before it gets a boot? Ive noticed that sum dogs dont seem to be big runners at first becouse there thinkers but once they get to no the game an become confident the run comes. But the big runners up front that ive seen keep running big. I toldly agree with you with line breeding in its consistencey but sum breedings just hook up better than others no matter what the paper says. Even dogs in good litters arent equal always. What i look for in my dogs is presence, boldness an natural retreive is importat to me. I use live an dead birds at about 5-7 wks old. I put a bird in the cage kinda of hide an let the pups loose to play grab "bleep" an carry on . I then watch for the pups that leaves the grab assing for the bird. I do it a bunch of times. These are things i do trying to hammer the quote pick of the litter. It hasnt let me down yet.

mudhunter · Post by **mudhunter** » Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:54 pm

Like everyone else I have to say Pups are a crap shoot. You really have no clue, I took my pick from a bitch my male bred, she looked like the nicest pup in the litter but she was the sorriest dog I ever owned!

That said...At 8 weeks I want to see a pup that is built right and one that WANTS to stay with me. Other guys can have the pups that want to run off at eight weeks (they are out there, I know)!! I also look for a bold pup that doesn't seem spooky. Then I look for color, I personally like a clean body, not a lot of ticking (I have pointers and setters). If you look at the litter and they are all built nicely, bold pups that want to stay with you but are exploring, then its just grab one.

Topher is 100% correct in my opinion, the guys that get good dogs consistently go through a lot of puppies!! I don't know anybody that can pick a champion at 8 weeks, just need to know how to not screw up the potential you have and develop it to see what you got.

rinker · Post by **rinker** » Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:05 pm

The only way to pick a very young puppy, in my opinion, is by looking at it's parents and at it's pedigree. I usually always start two or three puppies at a time, I have kept and started entire litters, and the pup that I like the best early on is almost never the best dog in the end. I have often hear people talking about picking the best puppy out of a litter, and I don't doubt that someone may be able to consistently do this, but I sure can't.

cmc274 · Post by **cmc274** » Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:38 pm

To give you an idea of what it takes to find the cream of the crop, read this article from 1968. Its about 2/3rd through the article where they discuss how many prospects it takes to find 2 AA pointers.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm

Saddle · Post by **Saddle** » Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:23 pm

In my opinion the only true way to find a puppy is to breed your own. I don't mind buying started dogs sometomes but I'll never buy 6 or 7 week old puppies. When I have a litter I try not to sell them when they're that small either.

I'm a little old school give me a pure bird dog first we can talk about the rest later.

Post by **slistoe** » Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:54 pm

The quality of a dog is not measured in yards.

Post by **Sharon** » Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:26 am

topher40 wrote:As a pup? Nothing. Everyone ( for the most part) is looking for the same thing from a dog though. Drive, desire, nose, run, attitude, (personally I dont like liver dogs) so color and breeding. You dont know what your getting froma dog till that pup becomes just that, a DOG. Again, breeding breeding breeding helps provide most of these things although they arent always there with even the best breeding.

Exactly. That's the whole story.

"The quality of a dog is not measured in yards." quote Slistoe.... right on!

Although at 8 weeks I want that independent pup that marches up to you and says, " What the heck are you doing here?"

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:58 am

Its about 2/3rd through the article where they discuss how many prospects it takes to find 2 AA pointers.

If this is true, then AA Pointers can't really be bred...they are freak that occur as a by-product. Would that be fair to say?? If the many AA Pointers over the years have not been able to increase the number of AA dogs, then maybe its not genetic.

bb560m · Post by **bb560m** » Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:06 am

slistoe wrote:The quality of a dog is not measured in yards.

That's a really good line!

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:55 am

JKP wrote:
Its about 2/3rd through the article where they discuss how many prospects it takes to find 2 AA pointers.
If this is true, then AA Pointers can't really be bred...they are freak that occur as a by-product. Would that be fair to say?? If the many AA Pointers over the years have not been able to increase the number of AA dogs, then maybe its not genetic.

JKP -

When one is talking about a winning open all age dog, that selection process is akin to looking at freshman highschool B ball and trying to pick which of those young boys will be an NBA all star. There are literally thousands of young men playing highschool B ball and only 250 or so playing in the NBA... with only 30 or so being replaced in any given year. Maybe one or two from each year will achieve all star status.

So, the all age pros are looking at the best of the best in dogs. Of all the dogs out there, there really are only on the order of 100 competitive open all age dogs. That's it. So, finding one or two all stars per year is a pretty tall order.

Are the selected dogs freaks of nature and genetic outliers? Probably just as much as Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Michael Jordan, Manute Bol, Willis Reed, Dave DeBusschere, Phil Jackson, or Walt Frazier were... in their time, in their sport.

If one were to be seaching for open shooting dog winners, the number of competitive dogs would multiply by a factor of two or three to 200-300 dogs. If the selection process were to include amateur horseback shooting dogs, the number of competitive dogs would go well into the thousand area, at least.

RayG

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:10 pm

I understand that Ray...and I'm sure you are right..a good analogy. My point is that its not a dog you can breed. You could go years breeding dogs and not see a true candidate. I'm wonderig why these dogs can't reproduce themselves on a more regular basis. The other question is how much of it is the dog and how much the trainer. Just wondering.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:42 pm

JKP wrote:I understand that Ray...and I'm sure you are right..a good analogy. My point is that its not a dog you can breed. You could go years breeding dogs and not see a true candidate. I'm wonderig why these dogs can't reproduce themselves on a more regular basis. The other question is how much of it is the dog and how much the trainer. Just wondering.

I don't agree. It most certainly IS a dog you can breed, and they prove it by breeding a few of them every year. Many of them come from heavily linebred Miller stock...year in and year out, so there is no question but that it is somethingthat CAN be bred for. In addition to the heavily Miller bred stuff, there are others, from different lines that can perform and win at that high level. Elhew Sinbad, White's Solid Reward and of course the setters come to mind as examples of dogs that are and have been bred specifically for this type of trial and who have succeeded.

It is just "bleep" hard and "bleep" rare to get all of what those folks need to win... in the same dog. One needs to keep in mind that the Gates' are looking for the next National Champion...which is indeed a very rare animal. You gotta go through a lot of really, really talented and capable animals and be incredibly selective.

In that article, the Gates' mentioned that they breed and evaluate 150 or so dogs just to obtain 30 prospects and, with luck...come up with 2 that can succeed. I submit that a significant portion of that first 150 pups and MOST of the 30 prospects would make most field trialers VERY happy.

RayG
RayG

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:43 pm

Ray, One of the things I have never understood is why is the all age dog the goal and not the shooting or gun dog? After all, those fit the qualities of the outstanding hunting dog much better than the all age dog of today. I have used gun dogs in my breeding for years but tried to pretty much stay away from most all age dogs and it has worked well. The biggest complaint I would get from the average hunter is the dogs ranged too far, and I understand that though I like to see them range when we can find a place to do that. The two I have today have a lot of All age dogs in their pedigree and though they are both small the little I taised from the two of them produced at least one pup and maybe two that are oversized but nice dogs, one that is right on the max and one male a little smaller. It surprised me but know where it comes from but though I loved the quality of the pups in the field I can;t use them in our breeding program.

Ezzy

Post by **slistoe** » Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:11 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Ray, One of the things I have never understood is why is the all age dog the goal and not the shooting or gun dog? After all, those fit the qualities of the outstanding hunting dog much better than the all age dog of today. I have used gun dogs in my breeding for years but tried to pretty much stay away from most all age dogs and it has worked well. The biggest complaint I would get from the average hunter is the dogs ranged too far, and I understand that though I like to see them range when we can find a place to do that. The two I have today have a lot of All age dogs in their pedigree and though they are both small the little I taised from the two of them produced at least one pup and maybe two that are oversized but nice dogs, one that is right on the max and one male a little smaller. It surprised me but know where it comes from but though I loved the quality of the pups in the field I can;t use them in our breeding program.

Ezzy

Because when you breed for the All Age dog you might get an All Age dog, but you WILL get a bunch of Shooting Dogs.

If you think that the reason you got oversize pups is because you bred to All Age dogs you are disillusioning yourself in your avidity to impugn the field trial process.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:25 pm

slistoe wrote:
Because when you breed for the All Age dog you might get an All Age dog, but you WILL get a bunch of Shooting Dogs.

Yup, those are my thoughts exactly. The unstoppable tendency toward mediocrity in breeding works at all levels. If you breed horseback Shooting dogs you will get some, but you will get a bunch of Walking Shooting dogs. if you breed walking shooting dogs, you will get some, but you will get a bunch of hunting dogs.

That is how it goes.

RayG

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:03 pm

http://www.fosteraward.com/Essays%20fro ... or_Leagues_

Saddle · Post by **Saddle** » Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:59 pm

There is so much more that goes into an All Age dog then just the run. You can reproduce that run pretty easily and pretty regularly. It's all of the other things that go along with that run that are hard to get. Is he a good bird dog? Is he built right? Does he handle? Can he hang out on the front on his own? Can his nose keep up with his ground speed? Can he be finished on his Birds? Once you put a handle on him does he go back to running? Once you get him finished on his Birds will he go back to running? Does he have the guts and the heart to stay after it when the going gets tough? All of these things go into being a good all age dog if 1 of these things is lacking you have nothing.

Post by **Sharon** » Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:26 pm

slistoe wrote:
RayGubernat wrote:
slistoe wrote:
Because when you breed for the All Age dog you might get an All Age dog, but you WILL get a bunch of Shooting Dogs.

Yup, those are my thoughts exactly. The unstoppable tendency toward mediocrity in breeding works at all levels. If you breed horseback Shooting dogs you will get some, but you will get a bunch of Walking Shooting dogs. if you breed walking shooting dogs, you will get some, but you will get a bunch of COMPANION dogs.

That is how it goes.

RayG
Fixed it for you.

LOL That had me worried too.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:22 pm

I don't agree. It most certainly IS a dog you can breed

If you're saying that one dog in 200 may make it...out of generations of trial dogs...you and I have a different definition of prepotency. That means that out of 20 litters, out of the best trial stock, you may get one AA dog.

Post by **slistoe** » Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:39 pm

JKP wrote:
I don't agree. It most certainly IS a dog you can breed
If you're saying that one dog in 200 may make it...out of generations of trial dogs...you and I have a different definition of prepotency. That means that out of 20 litters, out of the best trial stock, you may get one AA dog.

I think what he is saying is that you would get one that can be competitive and win. You can call anything you want an All Age dog, and you can even show up on the line and not be embarrassed with a great many dogs, but to be able to actually win is another kettle of fish all together.

Hattrick · Post by **Hattrick** » Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:01 pm

Not knowing alot about the different levels of the FT world it seems stepping in to the AA world is were games seperate abit and its more of midwest game right?

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:02 pm

slistoe wrote:If you think that the reason you got oversize pups is because you bred to All Age dogs you are disillusioning yourself in your avidity to impugn the field trial process.

I have no desire or need to impugn field trials as they are a fun way to enjoy our dogs when we aren't hunting. You probably didn't know that though since you had never asked me about my avidity.

I also know quite well where I got the over sized pups as I am quite familiar with most of the dogs in their pedigree. And it did come from several AA dogs but not because they were AA but because they were over sized. And in spite of that were used in many breeding programs.

Ezzy

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:11 pm

Hattrick wrote:Not knowing alot about the different levels of the FT world it seems stepping in to the AA world is were games seperate abit and its more of midwest game right?

Not really. All Age trials have been around longer than most any other class in the trial world. The extremely big running dog is really great if you are hunting the prairies on horseback but as you come east they can be more of a handicap than an advantage in many areas. It is hard to even find good areas to trial them in let alone hunting. But if you have the places to turn them loose and see them cover the ground as they hunt the objectives they are beautiful to watch.

Ezzy

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 8:37 am

Or you can have a dog like bud who seems to have an optimal range no matter where you put him down.

Grange · Post by **Grange** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:37 am

The Best Way To Train Your Gun Dog, The Delmar Smith Method describes what Delmar Smith looked for in a puppy. My setter was the last pick in the litter and has turned out be a good trial dog. When I sent her to a trainer for a 3 week puppy course (it was basically a bird introduction course) the trainer, who had two of her sibblings, said my setter was the best of the bunch. So for me I'd rather pick the best breeding for my preferred type of dog and then hope I get lucky again. My father like to use a grouse wing and watches which dog show the most interest.

jetjockey · Post by **jetjockey** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:41 am

ezzy333 wrote:
Hattrick wrote:Not knowing alot about the different levels of the FT world it seems stepping in to the AA world is were games seperate abit and its more of midwest game right?
Not really. All Age trials have been around longer than most any other class in the trial world. The extremely big running dog is really great if you are hunting the prairies on horseback but as you come east they can be more of a handicap than an advantage in many areas. It is hard to even find good areas to trial them in let alone hunting. But if you have the places to turn them loose and see them cover the ground as they hunt the objectives they are beautiful to watch.

Ezzy

It's funny, I hunted my Brittany , that competes as an All age dog, down here in GA yesterday. Biggest cast she made was about 150 yards. I guess nobody told her competing as an AA dog would handicap her as a hunting dog. Before I sent her off with a Pro I asked him if he could foot hunt his AA dogs. His response was "every single one of them".

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:44 am

JKP wrote:
I don't agree. It most certainly IS a dog you can breed
If you're saying that one dog in 200 may make it...out of generations of trial dogs...you and I have a different definition of prepotency. That means that out of 20 litters, out of the best trial stock, you may get one AA dog.

That is NOT what I said. Not even CLOSE. You need to quit being a thickhead about this and read what I actually wrote.

I said, FOR THE SECOND TIME... two dogs out of the top breeding(from ONE kennel out of a dozen or more) that are capable of winning it all in OPEN all age competition. Not just all age competition, but OPEN all age competition. There is a HUGE difference. Like the difference between college ball and the NBA.

Two dogs that are capble of becoming the best of the best of the best.

There is only ONE national champion selected each year out of all the open all age dogs. That dog, that year, is considered the best of the best of the best... in OPEN all age competition.

To revist my analogy...
How many B Ball players have come down the pike in the last ten to fifteen years? Answer...Thousands. How many really good ones? Hundreds.

How many Michael Jordans have come out of all of those? Zip...zero...nada...NONE.

If you want another analogy, consider the Boston Marathon. How many marathon runners compete? Answer. Thousands. How many finish? Again...thousands. How many are competitive...truly competitive? Perhaps a couple hundred and that is stretching it. How many winners are there out of all those?

ONE

And it is usually a Kenyan runner. Why? Genetics maybe??

RayG

RayG

SCT · Post by **SCT** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 11:33 am

jetjockey wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
Hattrick wrote:Not knowing alot about the different levels of the FT world it seems stepping in to the AA world is were games seperate abit and its more of midwest game right?
Not really. All Age trials have been around longer than most any other class in the trial world. The extremely big running dog is really great if you are hunting the prairies on horseback but as you come east they can be more of a handicap than an advantage in many areas. It is hard to even find good areas to trial them in let alone hunting. But if you have the places to turn them loose and see them cover the ground as they hunt the objectives they are beautiful to watch.

Ezzy
It's funny, I hunted my Brittany , that competes as an All age dog, down here in GA yesterday. Biggest cast she made was about 150 yards. I guess nobody told her competing as an AA dog would handicap her as a hunting dog. Before I sent her off with a Pro I asked him if he could foot hunt his AA dogs. His response was "every single one of them".

I'm guessing the parameters for all age brittany's are different than all age pointers. 150 yard cast or foot hunting does not describe what I would consider all age. Is that true or am I missing something? Please don't get me wrong or take offense, I'm just wondering if all age ranges are considered different for different breeds?

Steve

Post by **slistoe** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 11:37 am

RayGubernat wrote: If you want another analogy, consider the Boston Marathon. How many marathon runners compete? Answer. Thousands. How many finish? Again...thousands. How many are competitive...truly competitive? Perhaps a couple hundred and that is stretching it. How many winners are there out of all those?

ONE

And it is usually a Kenyan runner. Why? Genetics maybe??

RayG

RayG

I know a fellow who ran in Boston a couple of times. A couple hundred is a huge stretch. According to him, no more than 10 had any kind of a shot at winning and within 20 minutes it was obvious who they were - they were simply that much better than everyone else.

Post by **slistoe** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 11:45 am

SCT wrote:
jetjockey wrote:
ezzy333 wrote: Not really. All Age trials have been around longer than most any other class in the trial world. The extremely big running dog is really great if you are hunting the prairies on horseback but as you come east they can be more of a handicap than an advantage in many areas. It is hard to even find good areas to trial them in let alone hunting. But if you have the places to turn them loose and see them cover the ground as they hunt the objectives they are beautiful to watch.

Ezzy
It's funny, I hunted my Brittany , that competes as an All age dog, down here in GA yesterday. Biggest cast she made was about 150 yards. I guess nobody told her competing as an AA dog would handicap her as a hunting dog. Before I sent her off with a Pro I asked him if he could foot hunt his AA dogs. His response was "every single one of them".
I'm guessing the parameters for all age brittany's are different than all age pointers. 150 yard cast or foot hunting does not describe what I would consider all age. Is that true or am I missing something? Please don't get me wrong or take offense, I'm just wondering if all age ranges are considered different for different breeds?

Steve

The parameters are slightly different, but I have hunted on foot behind an All Age pointer (not a wannabe All Age, but a winning one with the title CH in front of her name). There were many times that dog was no more than 50 yards from us.

jetjockey · Post by **jetjockey** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:36 pm

SCT wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
Hattrick wrote:Not knowing alot about the different levels of the FT world it seems stepping in to the AA world is were games seperate abit and its more of midwest game right?
Not really. All Age trials have been around longer than most any other class in the trial world. The extremely big running dog is really great if you are hunting the prairies on horseback but as you come east they can be more of a handicap than an advantage in many areas. It is hard to even find good areas to trial them in let alone hunting. But if you have the places to turn them loose and see them cover the ground as they hunt the objectives they are beautiful to watch.

I'm guessing the parameters for all age brittany's are different than all age pointers. 150 yard cast or foot hunting does not describe what I would consider all age. Is that true or am I missing something? Please don't get me wrong or take offense, I'm just wondering if all age ranges are considered different for different breeds?

Steve

My point was to reference hunting behind an AA Brittany. It can easily be done if the dog is give the chance to learn, and understand the difference, and the lines between hunting and trialing are not blurred.

cjuve · Post by **cjuve** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:41 pm

JKP wrote:I understand that Ray...and I'm sure you are right..a good analogy. My point is that its not a dog you can breed. You could go years breeding dogs and not see a true candidate. I'm wonderig why these dogs can't reproduce themselves on a more regular basis. The other question is how much of it is the dog and how much the trainer. Just wondering.

It is something that you can breed for and increase your odds, but more importantly you have to train for it. I know of people that have been successful with far fewer dogs than what has been described and they compete at the highest level.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:38 pm

It is something that you can breed for and increase your odds, but more importantly you have to train for it. I know of people that have been successful with far fewer dogs than what has been described and they compete at the highest level.

Tru dat!! Most of the folks I consider successful don't seem to go thru very many dogs - they seem to be able to reach into the right litters and/or make the most of what they got...or they are extremely lucky

. Interesting that the folks I know that never seem to win seem to go thru the most dogs...

Personally, I've never sold or given away a single dog/"gone thru a dog"...maybe that's why we get our azzes beat all the time - I look at my dogs and see a bunch of old timer, grey faces staring back at me!! I think we are talking significantly different games though as a bunch of noodly amateurs competing for bowling trophies vs the guys that are going for the big time, big stakes.