Elhew line

[Allin13]

thoughts on elhew line?

[Stoneface]

This... is going to be interesting.

I really like a lot of what Elhews have to offer. True, they're not as hard core as some of the other lines out there and I think after Wehle passed away people totally diluted his lines heavily in marketing attempts for their own kennels. I don't know if there are any "true" Elhews left or if there ever will be again. I think a dog that is strong in Elhew blood is prone to be a great starter dog for someone just getting into birddogs.

I used to idolize Wehle like other kids idolized Steve Young, but now I realize that he was a very smart man, a very good businessman and it is totally within the realm of possibility that his dogs were not as good as their reputation. I've also heard from one person whose opinion I tend to trust and who has a great reputation (also from someone I consider a total flake) that he was egotistical and nothing more a great marketer).

All that being said, I think he was a genius and pioneer of genetics and I know there are some pretty prominent people in the birddog world who love Elhews and consistently own them. The founder of the Pointing Dog Journal owned one, Tom Davis of PDJ is a freak for Elhews and Steve Smith, PDJ's current editor, vouches for the line as great. Say what you want, but these men all knew birddogs - not from primarily a trialing perspective, but a hunter's perspective - and their opinion carries some weight.

[EK Cottontop]

I totally agree with Stoneface. I have a few friends that are big Elhew fans. I have been around GSPs since I was two. We all torment each other like a Ford vs. Chevy deal, but deep down (now, don't tell them) I really like their Elhews. They are awesome bird hunters, but equally as good house pets. I believe Nitro kennels in Northwest Missouri has some good, close Elhew pups on the ground now. I've hunted over a female from Caladen's Kennel that was Elhew/Guard Rail. She is a great dog too.

[RayGubernat]

thoughts on elhew line?

Elhew dogs are generally quick on the uptake. That is, I think part intelligence and part biddability.

They generally are a physically larger dog with good functional conformation. They seem to exhibit a bad bite(undershot) fairly ferequently.

Dogs from original lines are typically fairly soft in temperament and need to be handled gently and brought along with as little pressure as possible.

The flip side of this is that if you take your time and expose the dog to birds early and often, the dog will come a long way, pretty much all on its own.

Elhew breeding, in general, tends to bring a degree of biddability to the table in an outcross.

Depending on the outcross lines(or lack thereof), some Elhew dogs seem to have an aversion to hitting the cover hard and some others have a tendency to flag on planted birds.

Some of the later Elhew outcrosses, such as the Guard Rail and Dunn's outcrosses seem to have struck a good balance between mental toughness and trainability.

RayG

[ymepointer]

I think Ray is spot on. Brian Hayes(sp) owns Elhew Kennels now i think, and still breeds under that kennel legally. His are the only "real' elhew dogs techically anymore, but most pointers these days have some elhew in there blood.

[mask]

Most of Wehle's really good dogs were out crosses and the same holds true today. Some do nick well with other strains. I would stay away from Nitro Kennels. It will boil down to what you plan to do with your dogs.

[Stoneface]

If you were part of a blind test and took in 25 different dogs that included only one heavily-bred Elhew dog, but couldn't see the pedigrees, and had to live with them and train them, you probably wouldn't have much trouble picking out the Elhew at the end of a day or two. Even if you did the test several times. They're just different dogs. I'm not talking about the dogs who have an Elhew in their pedigree six generations back and have Elhew as part of the name because the breeder wants to market his pups.

I have a stud picked out for Moxy who is a great compliment for her and a very remarkable dog. He's not a hard dog and could never make an all-age dog, but he's a beautiful dog and the most biddable animal I've ever put my hands on. To get him to Whoa I picked him up, sat him down and bellowed "Whoa," then walked away. That was it. He never tried me. I know that sounds like the guy that says he caught and released a whale of a fish and there were no witnesses, but I'm so excited about the breeding that I'm gitty. I put him on birds and he never took a step or tried me, I just showed him what a bird was, worked him into one and he just stood there. He had no problem hanging at the end of the check cord and watching the bird fly away. One other thing is this dog's retrieving ability. He's all natural. This season the owner dropped three birds with a two-barrel gun and didn't know it. Slim fetched all the birds to hand without a command. Much earlier this season his owner dropped a Hun that hit the ground running and Slim tracked him and did a 400 yard (from what I hear) retrieve right to hand while his handler waited behind a fence. Kind of got long-winded, but my point is that he goes back to Elhew and I believe the bulk of his genetic inheritance is Elhew. You could not want a better dog in the house.

[sckwest1]

Hey Stone how about a pedigree on Slim. Thanks, SCK

[Stoneface]

I don't have access to anything online, but I can lay it out for you. Like I said, he doesn't have any Elhew close up. The name doesn't even show up until the second generation and it's the third generation before it shows in his pedigree as authentic... and it all comes to him through his sire's dam. The Elhew is just a small sliver of the pedigree's architecture, but I'm more than certain that the genes have carried through. I don't see the sense in using a pedigree to breed off of unless you personally bred both dogs or know very well the person who did because everyone knows breeder's have been known for not putting on paper who mama and daddy actually are. That said, I've heard that the way I have Caman's pedigree listed below is a slightly incorrect. I'm waiting on a copy of the pedigree from The Field. I'm going strictly off what I've experienced with both dogs and opinions from people I trust on Slim.

------------------------------------------ Sire: NASDAQ
--------------------- Sire :NC/Ch. Gailen's Lotto
------------------------------------------ Dam: Pocket Rocket Woman
Sire: Palmer's Blue Lotto
------------------------------------------ Sire: Delaware River Slick
--------------------- Dam: Delaware River Babe
------------------------------------------ Dam: Barnard's Elhew Susie
------------------------------------------ Sire: Ch. Honky Tonk Attitude
--------------------- Sire: Blue Valley Hank
------------------------------------------ Dam: Miller's Silver Lady
Dam: Blue Valley Caman
------------------------------------------ Sire: NC/Ch. Addition's Go Boy
--------------------- Dam: GoBoy's Rebel Nell
------------------------------------------ Dam: Matador's Rebel Nell

Delaware River's Slick goes back to some Elhew but it is pretty far back, roughly starting at about generation five. Barnard's Elhew Susie goes directly back to Elhew. Caman's pedigree goes back to include Silver Bullett, some Elhew way back, Fiddler and Ace. Pocket Rocket Woman goes back to some Miller, but it's way back there, too. I'm saying all this, but it's drastic how fast a dog's influence *can* wash out with every generation. Consider the first generation has, theoretically, 50% influence per dog, but the third is only allotted 12.5%. Beyond that a dog will typically have to show up several times to have any meaningful influence. In my opinion, that's the artistic part of breeding. A dog breeder's job is to channel the best genes through the generations. My point is, what dog today doesn't have some of the big names in his pedigree if you back far enough.

[southwayno]

The line died with Bob.

[Cajun Casey]

The line died with Bob.

Amen.

[Big Dave]

Hall of Fame dogs carrying the Elhew pre-fix Sunflower, Swami and Hannabell were not bred by Wehle, neither was Ch Elhew Sinbad.

[Angus]

I have been very interested in Elhew dogs, but fell in love with Setters. Vince at On Point Outfitters has some nice Elhew dogs and would be my first choice for an Elhew pup.
I'm not a field trial guy or a competition guy. I am a hunter who hunts a variety of upland species. I want a dog that will hunt for me and has a good nose with the smarts to use it. On Point pointers fit the criteria, which is what I think Bob worked for.

[pointer]

I appreciate the words from Angus in regards to my dogs, but I definitely would not consider myself to be anywhere in the same league as Bob Wehle in regards to a breeding program or knowledge of genetics. I have dogs that are from Bob's hardwork, but Elhews did die with him and his vision for what he wanted in a dog. I do however have some very nice Elhew dogs and many are out of dogs that were produced by Bobs program.

Most of the responses have been fairly accurate in their description of Elhews. If your looking to trial or put a little more punch in your dog, you are likely going to be outcrossing to put a little more go and toughness in the dog. Several of the Elhew sires seemed to put a lot more fire in their offspring than many of the others but that is a broad generality. Just been my experience with working with them. Guardrail and Bounty Hunter likely contributed as much to the line as some of the dogs within the line.

What I personally like about the line is how natural they do most everything and how much they wish to please. I describe them as being very setter like in how they are around the home and how they bond with the owner. The are very intelligent, biddable, and have one of the best noses in the business. However, I think that many pointer lines are mislabeled as not being good pets or companions and I find that to be totally false. Many are softer and simply require exposure to birds in non-pressured situations and they will excel. Most retrieve exceptionally well as well as back. The underbite can be an issue but i have close to 30 heavily linebreed Elhews and have only one dog without a perfect bite. In regards to size, many of the Elhews are larger dogs, but mine are not. Many are stocky but are not overally tall. I like them to have the classic head and confirmation, but I do not like mine being overally big. I like my females in the 45 to 50 lb range and my males from 50 to 55. Just my preference. They are early to develop and I don't have a single dog that flags. I don't buy into the claim of flagging withing the line and attribute it more to guys who apply more pressure than they need too which is not unique to most lines.

Overall, I think the line is one of the easiest to work with out of any of the pointing breeds a person could choose from. They can do anything from field trials to foothunting, but like all lines of pointers must be breed for intented use.

[Stoneface]

However, I think that many pointer lines are mislabeled as not being good pets or companions and I find that to be totally false. Many are softer and simply require exposure to birds in non-pressured situations and they will excel. Most retrieve exceptionally well as well as back.

Amen! Truer words were never spoken. This breed is the biggest secret in the dog world.

[Allin13]

which lines would you like to see if you were to field trials. So if you were to run AA field trials you would like to see x in the background.

[dead mike]

which lines would you like to see if you were to field trials. So if you were to run AA field trials you would like to see x in the background.

Or me, Miller, Shadow, Calkico, and Go Boy and Guard Rail

[rinker]

The pedigree shown above has as much Fiddler, and Miller as it does Elhew, and I think it has more Rebel than Elhew. I think that pedigree looks like the majority of current pedigrees for pointers, a little bit of several lines.

[RayGubernat]

which lines would you like to see if you were to field trials. So if you were to run AA field trials you would like to see x in the background.

Go to the National Championship website and get a copy of the running order from last yearand when it becomes available, get the running order for this year.

Each and every dog in those running orders is a past winner ofat least two open all age qualifying trials where they were pitted against the best of competition.

Then look up the pedigrees of those dogs and you will have your answer.

RayG

[RoostersMom]

Some of the later Elhew outcrosses, such as the Guard Rail and Dunn's outcrosses seem to have struck a good balance between mental toughness and trainability.

RayG

My first pointer was an Elhew outcross with Dunn's blood - she's almost 13 now and has been one heck of a hunting companion. I should have run her in NSTRA, but she was my first gunddog and I'm just happy I didn't mess her up too badly as a first time hunting dog owner. Would that I had her to "do over." She might have been something totally different - but she sure had the innate bird sense. She still - to this day, finds more birds than the other dogs I hunt with (mine and others). She's a machine - but a great couch potato too.

[gotpointers]

which lines would you like to see if you were to field trials. So if you were to run AA field trials you would like to see x in the background.

I cut and pasted this from the fieldtrialer board. Stephen does a great job researching all the dogs every year and I am looking forward to his account this year again Re: The American Pointer and His Family Tree by steeple » Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:40 am
And I quote-

The American Pointer and His Family Tree - Miller's Cheif re-visited, Brush Country Spectre's family, other corrections and clarification

Miller's Chief’s offspring competed at the national championship from 1986 through 2001. Fourteen different sons and daughters of Chief competed at the national . The highest number of his offspring competing in any given year was seven in 1992. Offspring of Miller's Chief that competed in the national championship were: American Way PF by Miller’s Chief ex Patsy Rebel Bootheel Jack PM by Miller’s Chief ex Robinson's Honey Bun Chief's Bo PM by Miller’s Chief ex Patrick Mountain Joy Chief's Prospector PM by Miller’s Chief ex Oak Hill Jill Hobbs White Lightning PM by Miller’s Chief ex Thompson's Runaway Dot Lehar's Perfect Tech PM by Miller’s Chief ex Miller's Little Bess Mac's Reelfoot Chief PM by Miller’s Chief ex Miller's Ladybird Miller's Crossbow PM by Miller’s Chief ex Guard Rail Susan Miller's Peter Pan PM by Miller’s Chief ex Sweet Shot Miller's Rising Star PM by Miller’s Chief ex Guard Rail Susan Oh Yes PF by Miller’s Chief ex Go Boy's Jill Once A Lady PF by Miller’s Chief ex Fiddler's Pennie Annie Texas Heat PM by Miller’s Chief ex Miss Addition's Lady Whippoorwill Rex PM by Miller’s Chief ex High Fidelity's Bluff

Since Miller's Cheif was 46-480-3110, I am not going to list all his offspring, but perhaps the above list will serve as a suitable summary. Other than his descendants from Miller's Protemus Pride leading to Miller's Silver Bullet, there were seven sons of Miller's Cheif who have living descendants, this will be their story.

The first of the seven sons was South Cheif Bluduck who was not one of the national championship contestants, but he did have a few field trial placements, he was 4-3-46. His dam, Knockabout Sophie, was a daughter of Rocky Dan and Georgia's Freeway Builder, she a daughter of Builder's Freeboy. South Cheif Bluduck was the sire of national champion Brush Country Spectre, with A Class Act his dam. She was 10-3-46, a daughter of Clown's Tiny Pal and Stewarts Chaparral Pat, and this mating also produced two daughters, Tyson's Precision Wen and Louisiana Hussy.

Brush Country Spectre was mated to his sister Louisiana Hussy and produced Idaho's Spec Addition who would be bred to his momma Louisiana Hussy and produce Spectre Sam. Of course, this is Brush Country Spectre's most closely bred line of descendants. Spectre Sam sired Spectre Pete out of Fly N High, and he sired Spectre's Yosemite Sam out of Idaho's Rambling Rose. Spectre's Yosemite Sam has a noteworthy son, Open Range Stimulus Package. I believe that I read in Spectre Pete's obituary that he had frozen semen, or perhaps it was Spectre Sam who was frozen, or perhaps both. Both Sam and Pete were contenders at the national championship several years.

The other contenders at the national that were sired by Brush Country Spectre were Barshoe Bogalusa out of Barshoe Barracuda, he made two appearances in 1997 & '98, his sister was Barshoe Panacea; Rester's New Wave out of Rex's Rambling Belle, made three appearances in 1999, 2000 & 2003, he was sire of Champagnes Nujac Ben; and South's Swashbuckler out of Rambling Rebel Doll, made five appearances 1999 through 2003. Rambling Rebel Doll was a sister of Morning Thunder, daughters of Coming Thru that you should remember from the Rebel chapters. Swashbuckler had a brother South's Bushwacker.

Sugar Cheif's Milley was a grand-daughter of Miller's Cheif who was bred to Brush Country Spectre and produced Rockacre Vindicator, she was 1-10-188. Fiddler Cheif's Nell was a daughter of Miller's Cheif and Gateway Bonnie, she was 0-4-42 and whelped to Rockacre Vindicator a daughter Rockacre Delight 21-3-8 and a son Rockacre Buckwheat 19-12-122. These Rockacre... names are from Peewee Cole, and I should mention that not all Rockacre... named dogs come from this lineage.

To continue with the Gateway... named girls, who all trace back to Nell's Rambling On and Fiddler, Rockacre Buckwheat was bred to Gateway Liberty Bell and produced Black Land and his sister Betty Boo. Black Land with Gateway Southern Bell produced Brad's Amazing Grace, and I'm sorry to not know of any of his sons.

Rockacre Buckwheat with Rockacre Showtime produced I'll Be Buck and Kickapoo Rambler. To Therapy's Little Bess, Rockacre Buckwheat sired Gamemaker and sister Tallgrass Pretty. Gamemaker, who has been a contestant every year since 2006 will be a contestant again at this year's national championship , and is proving himself to be a notable sire. Only one of his oldest sons, Game Time C, has sired a winner so far, the remainder of his sons mostly still derbies. And for those who have been scratching their heads over the 'who is Whippoorwill GMA' question from the first chapter, she is a daughter of Gamemaker out of Whippoorwill Dixie Chic, and she has a sister Whippoorwill GMB.

Santo was the dam of Rockacre Blackhawk, and a look at her pedigree would find three generations line-bred to the Fiddler family. Rockacre Blackhawk was a precocious puppy, who, if I remember correctly, won both the derby and open stakes of the Dallas Pointer and Setter Club trials when he was just ten months old. He would go on to have quite a field trial career, and be sold to Sunnyhill Plantation, formerly known as Norias Plantation back when Gov. Edge of New Jersey and W A Teagle of Standard Oil were in partnership. Rockacre Blackhawk was 24-153-773 in his lifetime, and since he lives on in a liquid nitrogen world those last two numbers will increase. He has been a most remarkable sire to Elhew bred girls, so much so that I will sumarize those progeny seperately. I'm truly amazed that there has not yet been a dog named Elhew Blackhawk.

With Elhew Hannabell: Coveyrise's Rascal and Legends With Elhew Swami: Sunflower's Camden's Fitch, Owyhee Swami Hawk, High Dollar Trip and Big Hawk, all have sired winners With Elhew Katie Lee, more than once: Master Hawk, Broadway Blackhawk, Night Hawk, Westfall's Black Ice, Blackhawk Jet, Sunnyhill Hawk, Jay Hawk, and Blackhawk Wiley, all but the last two have sired winners so far. Also from this mating are the girls Sparrow Hawk, Star Hawk, Blackhawk's Star, Blackhawk's Meg, San Jacinto Misty and Lyon's Katie Lee. With Snake's Elhew Misty, sister of Elhew Katie Lee: Hawk Song With Miss Elhew Awesome: Four Rivers Hawkeye, Four Rivers Thunderhawk, and Ward's Dan Hawk With Southern Sunflower: Marathon With Shotgun Elhew Attitude, also more than once: Blackhawk's Pony Express, Flying Cowboy, Jobar's Big Sky Pete, Sunnyhill Showdown, and Westfall's Black Coal, and five sisters, Zumbro Molly Mae, Ward's Rockin Robin Hawk, Rockacre Blackhawk's Dot, Pistol Patty Lou, and Dream Hawk. Shotgun Elhew Attitude was also bred to Night Hawk and produced Crandall's Hideaway Hank, Hombre, Boogie Shoes and their sister Calico's Touch of Class. With Shotgun Wildflower: A Tarheel Sunhawk and No Rules who has sired winners.

OK, convinced about the Elhew dams yet? I'm sure there are more but I'm going to move on with a few others, not obviously elhew. Strut was out of Pineknoll's Pat; Barshoe Osama Ben was out of Barshoe Panacea that daughter of Brush Country Spectre mentioned before; Harpeth Valley Hawk was out of Clearfork Cowgirl, he was the sire of BB's Pike out of Cheif Honcho's Sue; Purpleline Dan was out of High Heel Shoes; and finishing with Rockacre... names, Rockacre Giterdone was out of Rockacre Sensation, he has sired winners and so has his son Pure Brute, another son, Spiderback Rip is out of San Jacinto Misty, keeping it all in the family.

The second son of Miller's Cheif was Spyhill Cheif, his dam was Spyhill Camile a sister of Go Boy's Shadow. Spyhill Cheif was bred to Rebel's Babydoll and produced Davis Final Touch who was the sire of Davis Shout and Royal Touch out of Davis Prairie Rose; Stowaway Dan out of Miller's Rising Target; and Mega Trouble out of She's Something Else. Mega Trouble with Mega Princess produced Mega Diamond, and with Whippoorwill Silver produced Mega Touch.

The third son of Miller's Cheif was Chinquapin's Slam, his dam was Chinquapin's Flint. He sired Stateline Showdown out of Stateline Crossover. Stateline Showdown with Judy Shadow produced Chinquapin's Andy who made a run at the Ames plantation before he died young. Had he lived longer he would probably have been at least a hall of fame dog. He sired two winning sons, Chinquapin Speck out of Chinquapin Just Babe, and Chinquapin's A Rod out of Heidi Klum, both still living. I do not know if Andy was frozen.

The fourth son of Miller's Cheif was Cheif Honcho out of Pride's Dot. He was bred to Hendricks Silver Doll, a daughter of Hendricks First Lady and Miller's Silver Bullet, and produced Cheif Honcho's Joe. Cheif Honcho with Wrangler's Gal produced Cheif Honcho's Bo. Lester's Nat, the dam of Touch's Whiteout, was a daughter of Cheif Honcho's Bo and Cheif Honcho's Sue, she a daughter of Cheif Honcho's Joe. Cheif Honcho's Bo with Cheif Honcho's Babe produced Cheif Honcho's Mae and Cheif Honcho's Bill. I'm not certain but I think that Cheif Honcho's Samuel was of this litter? Cheif Honcho's Samuel was the sire of Southern Prodigy out of Forest Hill's Reba, his name was changed to House's White Ashes. House's White Ashes the sire of Memphis Southern Belle, Flight Risk and Hillbilly Deluxe out of three different dams.

The fifth son of Miller's Cheif was hall of fame'r Mac's Reelfoot Cheif. He was of the same breeding as Miller's Protemus Pride and Miller's Crystal, mentioned before, and also Colonel's Calorie Counter and Colonel's Ladybird. Mac's Reelfoot Cheif with Cheif's Fiddlin Dixie produced Olga's Reelfoot Willie and the champion bitch Wanna Bet. Olga's Reelfoot Willie with Flat Blue Lace produced Over And Under who was the sire of Concho Kipp out of Wingmaster Lilianna. Concho Kipp's name was changed to Over And Out.

The sixth son of Miller's Cheif was Whippoorwill Rex, or rather his brother Cheif's Bandit, their breeding also previously discussed with Doc Huffman's. Whippoorwill Rex with Special Octane produced Over The Rainbow, and with Windyhill Jayme, Rex sired Mac's Most Wanted. From Good Advice, remember her?, Mac's Most Wanted had a son Crow Bar. Mac's Free Agent was a son of Mac's Most Wanted out of Bruce's Annie Oakley. Cheif's Bandit was the sire of Whippoorwill's Deja Vu out of Whippoorwill Pat, a daughter of Whippoorwill Rex and R T Rose. Whippoorwill Deja Vu with The Ivory Tusk produced Cedaroak Panic. Whippoorwill Deja Vu with W W Meg produced Whippoorwill Wrangler and Flat Rock. Someone needs to help me here, as I think that Flat Rock has living sons? I'm not sure about the others.

The seventh son of Miller's Cheif was Grant's Fire Cheif, he was out of Cloud's Second Wind. He sired Grant's Buster Brown out of a notable bitch Quinton's Rambling Kate. Grant's Buster Brown would sire Searchlight Bandit out of Marbry's Flash and heck Creek Helen out of Forest Hills Honey, and those two half brother and sister will mate and produce two sons, Searchlight Bill and Searchlight Mack. Searchlight Bandit with Searchlight Star produced Sanderson's Trooper, and Searchlight Star with Searchlight Mack produced Quicksilver Magic Man. Sanderson's Trooper the sire of Total Blitz out of Lady Lily. Searchlight Bill with Wiggin's Line Dancer produced Hendrick's Headline.

In conclusion, I must confess that I was given the opening paragraph of this chapter by someone who helps me, THANK YOU, once again. It came with the following interesting statistics:

"Silver Bullett’s offspring competed at The National Championship from 1995 through 2007. Twenty-five different sons and daughters of Bullett competed at The National. The highest number of his offspring competing in any given year was thirteen in 2001."

"The first of White Powder’s offspring competed at The National Championship in 2003, they are still competing in 2012 and it wouldn't surprise me to see them competing for a couple more years. Fourteen different sons and daughters of White Powder have competed at The National. The highest number of his offspring competing in any given year was eight in 2009."

I will add that in 2009 there were also five grandsons of Miller's White Powder and two of his great-grands, making a total of fifteen. Of the 39 pointer contestants that year 29 of them were sireline descendants of Miller's Cheif, which shows that they are not all from Miller's White Powder, roughly half of them are from these other lines of Miller's Cheif and Miller's Silver Bullet.

A clarification was made concerning the lineage of Grant's Buster Brown, which was incorrect in the first 'white dogs' list, edited from the list when copied and pasted to this, and now finally the correct version appears in this chapter. A correction is necessary for what I said about Homerun... named dogs; they are not descendants of The Texas Ranger but rather from Rex Ferris Bimpkins. Both Homerun King and The Texas Ranger were grandsons of Seaview Rex. There are also Homerun.... named dogs who are descendants of Air Circus, a son of Air Pilot.

I appreciate all of you who have added photos, pedigrees, and personal memories of these dogs. Thank you. I will pause a short while before picking up that other half of Lexington Jake's lineage, that Elhew thing that keeps popping up everywhere, in hope that some of you might add some more photos of 'white dogs' and these other Miller's Cheif's lines.