Quail Back from the Brink

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:56 am

Don't bash me right out of the box, but here's the important question in my mind after reading the Near Extinction posts:

What have you done to turn this trend around?

Not the farmer, but YOU, the bird-dog loving, field-row hunting, blaze orange-wearing hunter....what have you done today to help quail and upland bird habitat?

I have joined Pheasants Forever & Quail Forever (life member) - I know that today, someone is likely in Washington D.C. lobbying for better conservation practices for quail in Missouri (heck, I know Dave Nomsen is working like a dog to get the Farm Bill passed), I know that today, we have 6 Quail Forever Farm Bill Wildlife biologists in this state that help private landowners develop wildlife habitat for quail and upland birds, I know that today, the food plot seed that our local chapter donated to landowners and to the conservation department is providing a snack for some wildlife species. I know that today, there are 42 local kids who I have personally showed how to identify ragweed plants while they were bird hunting at our local youth event this year. I know those kids will likely support conservation when they grow up. That's today.

Maybe QF is not your thing...what is? Who else is out there supporting quail and pheasant habitat? Check them out, join them, get involved in the recovery efforts, take a kid outdoors - take a kid that wouldn't otherwise get to go.....not just your kid or your niece or nephew - we know you've got them covered. Take a kid that wouldn't ever get the chance. If you can't or you won't give your time to something so important, then give your money - donate to your local chapter of PF or QF - or the National level. Find a group that you respect and donate to them - make sure they're doing good works with your money and donate.

We're always quick to point out what's lacking for quail and upland birds (especially with farmers) but what are we willing to do to change things? Maybe you could learn about wildlife practices that benefit quail and talk to your neighbors - there are a bunch of you on here that I see posts from that I know could easily take this step (and many of you likely have). Maybe you could buy that local farmer a membership to XYZ organization so he can read about quail and pheasant habitat. You can commit and join your local organization - and give it two years to see if you can help make change happen. Don't have a local organization...start one! There is a lot that you can do that will make a difference. What are you willing to do today?

Seriously... I'm asking, what are you willing to do today?

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:40 pm

I established a QU Chapter in my area years ago, which was no easy undertaking since the QU rep. had to come out of Hannibal, Mo. to help set it up and for the first few meetings. He took care of Oklahoma, New Mexico, Kansas, Missouri and Colorado I believe. I solicited and garnered support from local sportsmen and hunters and registered about 10-15 members ranging from college kids to judges who were more than willing to put in the time and effort to perform habitat restoration and if needed to put up money to stock birds. The bird stocking idea was immediately shot down by the QU rep. We attempted to solicit local farmers and ranchers who would allow us to perform habitat restoration on private lands for free and were met with skepticism and disdain so we turned to the state of Oklahoma. We have a 20,000 acre parcel of public hunting land that has been largely abandoned by the state and the Army Corp of Engineers after a failed dam building and attempt at producing a lake. It holds decent quail numbers,turkey numbers and deer numbers. We were met with equal disdain by the wildlife biologist and local game wardens and were told if we wanted to perform habitat restoration we could clean up a public shooting range on the site that had been vandalized and trashed but were given no opportunity to do any real work on state land because their plan was to sell it back to local farmers which failed after heated protests from local hunters. QU was more worried about us putting on a fund raiser than they were about us actually performing any useful work and gave up on us when our QU rep. quit to take another job and they got someone else in there. After many failed attempts with the state and local farmers our QU chapter gave up and disbanded. So you see I have tried and failed due to lack of support from the Oklahoma Wildlife Department and local land barons as well as QU. This is why I believe that if you own thousands of acres of land and participate in government programs such as CRP and property tax offset programs where you receive federal aid and farm subsidy programs then it is your responsibility to take care of and promote the wildlife that inhabit the land that you probably were passed down by you family especially if you are not willing to allow volunteers to do it for you.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:54 pm

We started a QU chapter here back in the late 90's & like Tommyboy's experience got no where all the QU org. was really interested in was our chapther raising money by holding Banquets,raffles,or what ever we could think of to make them money.We got not coopperation from any state land or state org to help with anything,it's like everything else if it don't make them money your on your own!!!Suffice to say our chapter was terminated within the first yr. we accomplished NOTHING!!

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:11 pm

We had the same experience with PF. The millions spent in Iowa under the reload Iowa program was basically wasted.
When a dog was raffled at Pheasant Fest in Des Moines, we decided we had enough. CJ

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:16 pm

I have belonged to QF for over six years, since they first organized here. That chapter folded and the other two don't do much. Their marketing is lame and they are stuck in the gun raffle banquet paradigm. Here, we could use a lot less Pheasant Fest literature (I don't belong to PF) and a lot more grassroots involvement with youth.

Luminary Setters · Post by **Luminary Setters** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:26 pm

QU's misuse of funds for the benefit of board members has caused many to be more skeptical of all the conservation groups.

It's usually only a few people that actually do the work at the local level. Eventually those people burn out and the organization fails. The only support coming from national is their promise of support to organize and promote the fundraiser. That usually means the regional rep shows up for a free dinner and to play tax collector for national.

I am also amazed how disinterested locals are when holding a fundraiser. For almost 5 years I made banquet donations to QU,QF, and RGS chapters in three states (multiple chapters with QU and RGS). With the exception of the Atlanta RGS chapter, I never received a thank you note or even notification of who would be contacting to claim their winnings. Even more surprising (again with the exception of Atlanta RGS) was that I would have to approach them for the next years donation. Last year no one contacted me from any of the three, and I decided simply not to bother any more. I find it ironic when the organizations complain about donations being so hard to come by when they have people that are tired of begging them to take their money.

Now I focus my efforts on getting young people involved in dog sports. Some want to hunt, trial or both. Especially in urban areas there are lots if kids that want to participate, they just don't know where to go and get started. Not only Is it a lot of fun turn a bird crazy puppy loose with 12 or 13 year old kid and win a ribbon, it a great way to hook a kid on something other than a video game. Working with the young has, for me,been much more rewarding than any of the conservation groups.

I agree with Cajun, a grassroots level effort to get the young involved is needed.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:52 pm

Tommyboy,

If we accept your argument, and you make some good points, after the landowner improves habitat and has huntable populations of birds, must he allow anyone/everyone to hunt without charge?

How long do you think the birds would last?

Neil

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:11 pm

I will also say that I would hesitate to take a child to a QF banquet, based on the ones I've attended.

Angus · Post by **Angus** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:50 pm

I started a QF chapter last fall. It's been tough and slow getting things going. people who tell you that they're interested in helping flake out.

I am dedicated to helping wild Bobwhite's come back to PA. I could use the help of my fellow sportsman in the area to get this ball rolling, but I'll do it myself if I have to. I really want my 4yo daughter to be able to take her kids hunting for wild quail, or at least hear the calls on the farm like I did as a kid growing up.

Angus · Post by **Angus** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:54 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:I have belonged to QF for over six years, since they first organized here. That chapter folded and the other two don't do much. Their marketing is lame and they are stuck in the gun raffle banquet paradigm. Here, we could use a lot less Pheasant Fest literature (I don't belong to PF) and a lot more grassroots involvement with youth.

I could not agree more. Our QF chapter will be focused on habitat and getting youth involved in the habitat end of things. We'll have days where kids can come learn to drive tractors, work drills and othe rimplements. Learn the why's and how's to quail friendly farming and then go out and disk and feather edges.

Get the youngins involved in the habitat they will carry that on through to their children.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:23 pm

Angus wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:I have belonged to QF for over six years, since they first organized here. That chapter folded and the other two don't do much. Their marketing is lame and they are stuck in the gun raffle banquet paradigm. Here, we could use a lot less Pheasant Fest literature (I don't belong to PF) and a lot more grassroots involvement with youth.
I could not agree more. Our QF chapter will be focused on habitat and getting youth involved in the habitat end of things. We'll have days where kids can come learn to drive tractors, work drills and othe rimplements. Learn the why's and how's to quail friendly farming and then go out and disk and feather edges.

Get the youngins involved in the habitat they will carry that on through to their children.

Check into Richard Louv's books and the No Child Left Inside initiative.

Angus · Post by **Angus** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:41 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:
Angus wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:I have belonged to QF for over six years, since they first organized here. That chapter folded and the other two don't do much. Their marketing is lame and they are stuck in the gun raffle banquet paradigm. Here, we could use a lot less Pheasant Fest literature (I don't belong to PF) and a lot more grassroots involvement with youth.
I could not agree more. Our QF chapter will be focused on habitat and getting youth involved in the habitat end of things. We'll have days where kids can come learn to drive tractors, work drills and othe rimplements. Learn the why's and how's to quail friendly farming and then go out and disk and feather edges.

Get the youngins involved in the habitat they will carry that on through to their children.
Check into Richard Louv's books and the No Child Left Inside initiative.

No Child Left Indoors is a big PF/QF initiative. It will be a big part of our chapter operations behind the scenes. I really like the principles and need to get people to help move those ideas and principles into a Culture.

Big Dave · Post by **Big Dave** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:55 pm

I have been a volunteer dog handler at several youth hunts, I try and take the time to talk to people that show any interest in upland hunting. I have worked with private land conservationist from the Missouri Department of Conservation, these two guys from two different counties were a big help. At one time they had good cost share programs. I started off with a chainsaw and a hand held sprayer of Round Up, I know that building covey headquarters (downed tree structures) have helped my birds. I paid someone with a tractor to disc and till areas in my CRP, wrote it off as farm expense and then sowed clover and lespedeza from Pheasants Forever in worked soil. I hunted some public land this fall that was pretty good. The drought had set back the grass and there were more weeds and bare ground but I also saw more standing crops. It turned out that the National Wild Turkey Federation had donated food plot seed for the public ground. I have helped others burn and some conservations employees helped us with a burn. I have been to banquets and had a good time, bought a few things and even won a few. I am only one guy but try to do something every year on our small piece of habitat, I enjoy quail hunting too much to sit idle and watch it disapear.

Fester · Post by **Fester** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:17 pm

I stoped shooting wild birds, my little part won't help much but thats what I did, I shoot libbys it sux but it makes me feel better, all the organazations are fighting about what happened to the birds and we all got our own ideas but there is an underlying problem that is wiping out the birds, even on the areas that have perfect ground with bare spots and groceries the number is going down, it makes me sick
Fester

Angus · Post by **Angus** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:27 pm

Fester wrote:I stoped shooting wild birds, my little part won't help much but thats what I did, I shoot libbys it sux but it makes me feel better, all the organazations are fighting about what happened to the birds and we all got our own ideas but there is an underlying problem that is wiping out the birds, even on the areas that have perfect ground with bare spots and groceries the number is going down, it makes me sick
Fester

You are right. There is an underlying problem.

While Habitat is number one, there is also parasites and disease. As the wild populations become more confined, the natural factors have a big impact. Then hunters are also more concentrated on wild populations. So while you may stop shooting wild birds others will not. That's where changing the culture/mentality of your fellow hunters helps.

Orgs like Quail Forever can help with that. Contact a chapter close to you.

Fester · Post by **Fester** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:37 pm

Angus wrote:
Fester wrote:I stoped shooting wild birds, my little part won't help much but thats what I did, I shoot libbys it sux but it makes me feel better, all the organazations are fighting about what happened to the birds and we all got our own ideas but there is an underlying problem that is wiping out the birds, even on the areas that have perfect ground with bare spots and groceries the number is going down, it makes me sick
Fester

You are right. There is an underlying problem.

While Habitat is number one, there is also parasites and disease. As the wild populations become more confined, the natural factors have a big impact. Then hunters are also more concentrated on wild populations. So while you may stop shooting wild birds others will not. That's where changing the culture/mentality of your fellow hunters helps.

Orgs like Quail Forever can help with that. Contact a chapter close to you.

You are absolutely right sitting on ones hands and giving up is not gonna help quail, no more than me not shooting them, some say if you don't know where you are going why take the first step, but I also know if you work at something long enough and hard enough you will eventually learn something about it, I been following the study at Texas A&M opration idiopathic decline hopfully they will turn over the right rock and get something started

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:07 pm

Rolling Plains has gathered a lot on useful information on pathogens and parasites. Our biggest problem here is the State folks who seem to be stuck in a time warp thirty years back.

Angus · Post by **Angus** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:33 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:Rolling Plains has gathered a lot on useful information on pathogens and parasites. Our biggest problem here is the State folks who seem to be stuck in a time warp thirty years back.

The time warp problem is everywhere.

Missouri university and Missouri conservation has a ton of wonderful info on quail.

Quail habitat will benefit all other animals in the USA.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:49 pm

Angus wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:Rolling Plains has gathered a lot on useful information on pathogens and parasites. Our biggest problem here is the State folks who seem to be stuck in a time warp thirty years back.
The time warp problem is everywhere.

Missouri university and Missouri conservation has a ton of wonderful info on quail.

Quail habitat will benefit all other animals in the USA.

Was just reading an article on quail farming in one if my treehugger back to the land hippie farmer magazines. Interesting stuff and we can probably figure on there being more domestic than wild quail before long, if there's not already.

Angus · Post by **Angus** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:56 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:
Angus wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:Rolling Plains has gathered a lot on useful information on pathogens and parasites. Our biggest problem here is the State folks who seem to be stuck in a time warp thirty years back.
The time warp problem is everywhere.

Missouri university and Missouri conservation has a ton of wonderful info on quail.

Quail habitat will benefit all other animals in the USA.
Was just reading an article on quail farming in one if my treehugger back to the land hippie farmer magazines. Interesting stuff and we can probably figure on there being more domestic than wild quail before long, if there's not already.

It's only a matter of time before Bobwhite's are added to the endangered list. Quail farming and release is the only reason it hasn't happened already. Shame pen raised birds have zero nesting instincts.

PA is going to do a trap and transfer program. Hopefully other states will as well before it's too late.

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:20 pm

cjhills wrote:We had the same experience with PF. The millions spent in Iowa under the reload Iowa program was basically wasted.
When a dog was raffled at Pheasant Fest in Des Moines, we decided we had enough. CJ

I don't live in Iowa, but your state has one of the biggest success stories in modern day wildlife management - the passing of legislation that will help support wildlife funding. That is a HUGE success. Don't think so???? Look at Missouri. We are where we are with quail research, publications, management and conservation in general because of the passing of our 1/8th of 1 cent sales tax so many years ago. I know a bunch of committed biologists and volunteers that worked day and night to get this deal passed in Iowa - this might be the hope that's needed to make some real progress - if the legislation ever gets funded.

How many Farm Bill Wildlife Biologists are there now in Iowa? Each one of those positions was a GREAT use of dollars (I don't know if your chapter supported that or not). Those biologists do so much work. Maybe you feel like the dollars were wasted, and that's too bad. Those of us in the biology field look to the passing of the legislation in Iowa as a modern day wildlife success story. I also wish we had the success that Iowa has had with the youth shooting sports programs - there are so many more success stories up there than down here.

No matter what group you support - I think it's great that you are or have been involved - and I hope you'll try again when you find a good fit. Dogs at banquets...that opens a big can of worms.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:31 pm

Every QF event I've attended included a raffle or auction of a dog.

SetterNut · Post by **SetterNut** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:41 pm

Been QU, now a QF member, have taken several new quail hunters on their first hunt.
And just bought a 1/4 and we will see what I can do for habitat there.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:29 pm

RoostersMom wrote:
cjhills wrote:We had the same experience with PF. The millions spent in Iowa under the reload Iowa program was basically wasted.
When a dog was raffled at Pheasant Fest in Des Moines, we decided we had enough. CJ
I don't live in Iowa, but your state has one of the biggest success stories in modern day wildlife management - the passing of legislation that will help support wildlife funding. That is a HUGE success. Don't think so???? Look at Missouri. We are where we are with quail research, publications, management and conservation in general because of the passing of our 1/8th of 1 cent sales tax so many years ago. I know a bunch of committed biologists and volunteers that worked day and night to get this deal passed in Iowa - this might be the hope that's needed to make some real progress - if the legislation ever gets funded.

How many Farm Bill Wildlife Biologists are there now in Iowa? Each one of those positions was a GREAT use of dollars (I don't know if your chapter supported that or not). Those biologists do so much work. Maybe you feel like the dollars were wasted, and that's too bad. Those of us in the biology field look to the passing of the legislation in Iowa as a modern day wildlife success story. I also wish we had the success that Iowa has had with the youth shooting sports programs - there are so many more success stories up there than down here.

No matter what group you support - I think it's great that you are or have been involved - and I hope you'll try again when you find a good fit. Dogs at banquets...that opens a big can of worms.

That's just it with all the money and time spent they still don't have any birds. The same in Mn. Ph takes credit when populations are good, but it is pretty much weather related. Have all the biologists helped the bird population at all. Most of the grass roots PH members quit after a few years of being hassled to produce more money. At least that was our experience. Cj

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:39 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:Every QF event I've attended included a raffle or auction of a dog.

5 of my best hunting dogs I bought at QU banquets, and I have donated 7 or 8, all went to good hunting homes. 2 have field field placements. I know that the VCA and others are against it, saying we are all drunks buying dogs we don't want and then abuse, that has not been my experience. All sold at above market price and were well bred. Buying and selling I have helped contribute over $10,000.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:32 pm

Neil wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:Every QF event I've attended included a raffle or auction of a dog.
5 of my best hunting dogs I bought at QU banquets, and I have donated 7 or 8, all went to good hunting homes. 2 have field field placements. I know that the VCA and others are against it, saying we are all drunks buying dogs we don't want and then abuse, that has not been my experience. All sold at above market price and were well bred. Buying and selling I have helped contribute over $10,000.

I kind of got the impression it was part of the plan. I've seen some nice dogs at QF events.

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:15 am

Neil wrote:Tommyboy,

If we accept your argument, and you make some good points, after the landowner improves habitat and has huntable populations of birds, must he allow anyone/everyone to hunt without charge?

How long do you think the birds would last?

Neil

No Neil they do not have to allow everyone to hunt without charge but there you go thinking like a money grubbing land baron rather than a conservationist. It is the mindset that you just expressed that I was talking about. If you or any landowner develops a small part of the land for a breeding population of wildlife the species will spread to adjoining land and when there is not enough food or water or breeding pairs to support larger coveys they will break off into smaller coveys and move to adjoining lands where they seek out food and water, nesting habitat, and begin to breed and in turn establish coveys on that land. If this continues to happen then you bring back a huntable population.

Neil I am lucky enough to have thousands of acres to hunt both quail and pheasant. I have one rancher who allows me to hunt quail on his 15,000 acre ranch and for pheasants I have farmers who, since they know me, allow me to hunt several different CRP sections that also amount to thousands of acres. I would like to see land that is being paid for basically by the public to be better taken care of. I see many landowners out here that don't farm or ranch anymore but that own thousands of acres of land that has been passed down through their family that live simply off government handouts like farm subsidy programs, tax offset programs, and CRP programs. That is not what these programs were established for. Say for instance that you live in a city and your father deeded you the family home and you now own it but cannot afford the property taxes. Is anyone going to bail you out? Are you entitled to government assistance to pay your utilities and your property taxes and put a new roof on your house? No you are not and if you can't afford it then you should sell it rather than relying on the public to fund your private property. If you want to start a pay to hunt operation on your farm then more power to you and I wish you the best of luck but if you are mooching off the public then you might want to thank some of these kind citizens for your home, land, hundred thousand dollar tractors, fifty thousand dollar pickup, paid utilities, and the fact that you own your own business by perhaps allowing one or two of them to hunt on your publicly funded private land.

Mountaineer · Post by **Mountaineer** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:03 am

Cajun Casey wrote:Every QF event I've attended included a raffle or auction of a dog.

Saw that at RGS banquets when I attended.
Can work fine but also you get the guy half drunk and egged on who ends up with a pup, and shouldn't.
Hate to see dogs auctioned at game banquets, as a given.

The public gets a tradeoff or payback from set-aside programs as they exist w/o any direct game development...if the programs were enrolled correctly.
Those programs were most often not established for game reasons or lucre.....game benefits and lucre follow, one an offshoot and one an incentive.
Whether one feels put upon by retired great-aunt Madge continuing to make her bingo or travel money from The Farm would be stretching the idea of publically funded.
Odds are, the Pub is still reaping a benefit, along with Madge as the enrollment continues.
Win-Win...more often than not.

While I don't own any CRP, etc., I would feel no compunction whatsoever to allow any hunter access simply because I worked hard, made good decisions and saw advantage all around in a government set-saide program enrollment.
Nor would I feel my decendents should be ashamed of my success or feel forever beholden to Uncle Sam as their provider....especially as mooching in this abstract manner is far different than a bum at a back door.
I find no comparable tradeffs in said bum.

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:41 am

Chapters are run by grassroots individuals that volunteer their time and effort. With QF or PF, they keep all the funds they raise at the end of the event. Then the chapter decides where to spend the dollars. The chapter committee is the one that decides what is sold at the banquet. So a pup donated to the chapter is an individual chapters' decision to accept or not accept. We do not sell many pups at banquets here in MO - though a few chapters have good donors that like to donate a pup. I much prefer when a chapter gets a "pup" donated in the form of a pick of the litter (whatever pick that is) for a future litter. Then the breeder can meet the buyer and figure out the best pup. That said, I don't know too many breeders that will donate their pups to be auctioned off.

jimbo&rooster · Post by **jimbo&rooster** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:54 am

Well as the bird dog loving orange wearing hunter, I have arranged that 1/3 of the family farm be taken out of production and placed in CRP (140acres) as well as the allowable food sources (food plots). I have gone around and offered my time, equipment, and services to a few farmers and land owners and helped turn about 400 additional acres into habitat, by helping clear land and planting grass ways as well as additional food sources. In my moving around and running dogs and talking to land owners I have found that by essentially providing 550 acres of habitat over the last 4-5yrs there has been an increase on adjoining properties.

I have also opened our farm to a few coon/predator hunters and have made it a point to remove any ferrel cats.

Just on our 140acres I have seen an increase from 1-2 small 5-10 bird covies, to 4 covies 3 of which are 10-15 bird groups and one that was closer to 25-30 (before the snow and ice this year)

I was once a member of qf/pf and the local chapter was a joke.

Jim

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:35 am

"Money grubbing land barons"?

I wonder what those hardworking ranchers that grant you hunting access would think if they heard your opinion?

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:23 am

Neil wrote:"Money grubbing land barons"?

I wonder what those hardworking ranchers that grant you hunting access would think if they heard your opinion?

I don't include them in that same mix and not because they allow me to hunt but because of their attitudes and the fact that the ranch owner does not participate in government programs. The actual landowner is a wealthy dentist from Houston who comes up periodically to hunt, maybe a couple times a year. The ranch was passed down to him by his father who came here after WWII and started the ranch which once was comprised of many more acres until he was duped by his partner whose family now owns 3 local branch banks and even larger acreage ranches. The ranch is a tax shelter for the dentist and the ranch manager allows me to hunt it. It is also a working cow/calf operation not a government slush fund. The CRP I hunt is owned by smaller farmers who are not wealthy land barons. There are other farmers and ranchers here that I speak of. One of them being the owners of the banks I mentioned. I don't want to argue semantics with you. I was trying to make a point about taking better care of the land, wildlife that inhabits it and going a bit beyond what the government requires in their programs to encourage healthy wildlife populations not just quail and pheasant but turkey and deer as well.

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:25 am

jimbo&rooster wrote:Well as the bird dog loving orange wearing hunter, I have arranged that 1/3 of the family farm be taken out of production and placed in CRP (140acres) as well as the allowable food sources (food plots). I have gone around and offered my time, equipment, and services to a few farmers and land owners and helped turn about 400 additional acres into habitat, by helping clear land and planting grass ways as well as additional food sources. In my moving around and running dogs and talking to land owners I have found that by essentially providing 550 acres of habitat over the last 4-5yrs there has been an increase on adjoining properties.

I have also opened our farm to a few coon/predator hunters and have made it a point to remove any ferrel cats.

Just on our 140acres I have seen an increase from 1-2 small 5-10 bird covies, to 4 covies 3 of which are 10-15 bird groups and one that was closer to 25-30 (before the snow and ice this year)

I was once a member of qf/pf and the local chapter was a joke.

Jim

Jim is the perfect example of the point I was attempting to make. Great job and keep up the good work Jim. I wish I could have the success you are enjoying.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:11 pm

Tommy,

Have no idea what happened to make you so bitter in your thinking or at least in how you express it. I just can't see why someone passing down something they worked for to their children is bad or the kids are bad that received it. I think many of us work hard to be able to do that very thing and our kids spent a lot of their early life helping us to succeed.

You keep talking about these people taking money from the public in the form of CRP payments and tax offset programs. Not sure you understand what is really happening. There is no personal property tax relief connected to the Conservation programs since they are federal programs and personal property taxes are state so any relief anyone would get has to come from the state. I have never heard of the relief program you talk about here in our mid-west region but any state could do that if they so desired I guess. I know here they give tax relief to practically every business that moves into the area and employes people. Are you talking Oklahoma or Texas that has this program? Sounds like a good way to help keep some of the farm land in the hands of the farmers but I have no idea what else it would do.

As far as the CRP goes there are some strict rules you have to follow to even offer your ground for rent to that program. And if you meet the requirements and put it up for rent, the government has the option of taking it or not. Each County has only so much money thay can spend ao they usually rent the cheapest ground first and take as much as they have money to cover. And once they take it they are the ones that make the rules of what the farmer can and can not do on those acres. Back when it started before it was considered a bird conservation tool you had to mow it every year so no weeds would go to seed. The conservation office had people whose job was to inspect all of the acreage to make sure everything was being done properly. Since that time they have changed a lot of the rules as it was discovered to be a real boon to the upland birds as well as a soil conservation program.

So what it comes down to is the fact that if you had ground your wanted to put in the program you had to set a price as to what you would rent it for and the cheaper ones got taken and some of the expensive ones didn't depending on how much money was available in your county. I am not sure why you feel it is bad to rent to the government instead of your neighbor or just keeping the ground for your own use but in the end it is all kind of the same. But if the ground is in CRP it was the government that made the decision that they wanted it to help not only with soil but also wildlife conservation and of course the money did and still does come from the taxpayers who also get some indirect benefits from it as you have mentioned.

Just hate to see anyone have the chip on the shoulder and the bitterness towards so many of your neighbors who advantage of a program we have all benefitted greatly from. Lets hope we can find a way to keep it going or replace it with something better.

Ezzy

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:47 pm

I'm sorry to sound bitter Ezzy. I guess it is the way I express myself but I am not bitter. I will see if I can find the website for you. My boss showed it to me sometime ago. There are certain ranchers and farmers out here that own hundreds of thousands of acres and that receive up into the millions of dollars in the tax offset program I am speaking of. I do understand that conservation programs are not tied to this same program.

I guess what I am surprised and taken aback by is the fact that I personally know that the majority of these acres are undeveloped and unused- what we call ranch land out here. Basically thousands upon thousands of acres of a mix of 2 inch high grass, cactus, mesquite, scrub brush, prickly pear, yucca, sandplum patches, etc. with nothing on it including cattle. The fact that the people I am referring to receive money from government agencies simply for owning this dormant non-producing land, in my opinion, is deplorable. If a person cannot afford to maintain the land by paying the same property taxes I am asked to pay then they need to sell it rather than depending on government i.e.public funds to keep it. No Ezzy I cannot afford to purchase the land so it has nothing to do with me wanting to buy it. I just don't think honest taxpayers should have to foot the bill for it either. These are not the small subsistence farmers that many of you assume I am speaking of. These are large family established companies who don't just dabble in farming and raising cattle for a living. They own banks, feedlots, corporate hog farms, trucking companies, etc. They can afford, through their other various business ventures, to pay their land taxes.

Angus · Post by **Angus** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:11 pm

As long as I'm involved in our local QF chapter we will not be using dogs or pups for revenue. If a breeder wants to donate a little pick from a future litter then that's fine, but no dogs for our fundraising purposes. I'm not frowning upon the practice, just that I feel there are other ways to get chapter funds. Each chapter is different with different philosophies, and that's what makes QF successful as a whole imo.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:41 pm

Angus wrote:As long as I'm involved in our local QF chapter we will not be using dogs or pups for revenue. If a breeder wants to donate a little pick from a future litter then that's fine, but no dogs for our fundraising purposes. I'm not frowning upon the practice, just that I feel there are other ways to get chapter funds. Each chapter is different with different philosophies, and that's what makes QF successful as a whole imo.

So you would turn your back on the $10,000 I have personally raised through donating and buying pups? Interesting position.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:50 pm

Wechave a GSP breeder who sells a pup every year as well as 6wks training. I used to do the same back when we first started.Wasood for all concerned. I'm always astounded how many of the same people win practically every year when we have 300 and 400 attend. Just wish there was more we could do to help keep the birds thriving.

ezzy

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:25 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Wechave a GSP breeder who sells a pup every year as well as 6wks training. I used to do the same back when we first started.Wasood for all concerned. I'm always astounded how many of the same people win practically every year when we have 300 and 400 attend. Just wish there was more we could do to help keep the birds thriving.

ezzy

Personally I don't have to big of a issue with local chapters Auctioning dogs at their banquet. It is their choice. Our chapter did not allow it. We had people want to donate a puppy every year but we always turn them down. Too many times it is a chance for somebody to get a tax right off for a over priced pup. Almost every breed club has rules against it. I do have a major problem with the national Pheasant Fest allowing this. The few dollars made is not worth the bad publicity. Hopefully we got that stopped. If the pups is worth the money sell the pup and donate the cash. Cj

Angus · Post by **Angus** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:30 pm

Neil wrote:
Angus wrote:As long as I'm involved in our local QF chapter we will not be using dogs or pups for revenue. If a breeder wants to donate a little pick from a future litter then that's fine, but no dogs for our fundraising purposes. I'm not frowning upon the practice, just that I feel there are other ways to get chapter funds. Each chapter is different with different philosophies, and that's what makes QF successful as a whole imo.
So you would turn your back on the $10,000 I have personally raised through donating and buying pups? Interesting position.

I would say No to live dogs, but wouldn't fault you at all. Pretty simple.

Habitat and returning wild quail to PA are the goals, Not raising money. While we will have fundraisers, and fun times, Things will get done around here without auctioning off dogs/pups.

I'f you'd like to donate 10k I would be very appreciative.

Mountaineer · Post by **Mountaineer** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:31 pm

As I reckoned, while a pup as banquet fodder can work....pup trumps cash.
Every time.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:36 pm

cjhills wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:Wechave a GSP breeder who sells a pup every year as well as 6wks training. I used to do the same back when we first started.Wasood for all concerned. I'm always astounded how many of the same people win practically every year when we have 300 and 400 attend. Just wish there was more we could do to help keep the birds thriving.

ezzy
Personally I don't have to big of a issue with local chapters Auctioning dogs at their banquet. It is their choice. Our chapter did not allow it. We had people want to donate a puppy every year but we always turn them down. Too many times it is a chance for somebody to get a tax right off for a over priced pup. Almost every breed club has rules against it. I do have a major problem with the national Pheasant Fest allowing this. The few dollars made is not worth the bad publicity. Hopefully we got that stopped. If the pups is worth the money sell the pup and donate the cash. Cj

What do breed clubs have to do ith it? Not everyone belongs to one and not all dogs are AKC.

Brazosvalleyvizslas · Post by **Brazosvalleyvizslas** » Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:09 pm

For the sake of discussion would it be any different if a breeder had a litter at the fund raiser and instead of auctioning a puppy they simply offered them for sale an proceeds would be donated? I believe alot of parent clubs also state "no Internet sales" but we see litters on various websites all the time. Where do we draw the line? Wouldn't like minded people at a fund raiser bidding on a puppy be in the market for one anyway? I pose the question because I feel like I've done everything I could in the past but my Wheels just spin. I was going to organize a Banquet for next fall but other than volunteering my time, donating a puppy or started dog is my only option.

jimbo&rooster · Post by **jimbo&rooster** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:39 am

How did this conversation go from what we are doing for the birds to a pissing match about whether or not you should auction dogs at a banquet...... no wonder we don't have any quail..... seems like ya'll are more concerned that someone agrees with how you do it than actually doing it.

Jim

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:59 am

OK guys and gals, get back to saving the quail rather than discuss ways to make money to do it. Maybe we should just ban advertising pups since someone might buy one for a reason we don't like. We even use the money we made to buy drills, shrubs, and trees and I am sure it all helps but we just need more if we are going to make more than a dent.

Ezzy

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:59 am

OK guys and gals, get back to saving the quail rather than discuss ways to make money to do it. Maybe we should just ban advertising pups since someone might buy one for a reason we don't like. We even use the money we made to buy drills, shrubs, and trees and I am sure it all helps but we just need more if we are going to make more than a dent.

Ezzy