Buying,Breeding,or does it make a difference

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

I'm curious to know which would give you the most satisfaction or if it would make a difference???.Would you rather buy or breed, your first or future FC or does it make a difference to you?

[Winchey]

I don't do AKC, but I think the ultimate to me would be to breed, train and handle a dog to a championship myself. I don't really have any inclanation to breed dogs, so I would be thrilled to buy one and train and handle it myself. Not that I wouldn't get any satisfaction from buying a dog and sending it out to recieve a title, it is just not the same as if I bread it, handled or trained it, or all of the above or a combination of.

[Ghosted3]

I think that picking a pup from your own litter and getting a title would be better (personally) because it boosts your lines as well from a breeding aspect too. You could always brag about upcoming litters from "X and "Y" who made champ "Z"
Flip side, if you dont care about breeding then it doesnt really matter lol.

Corry

[Stoneface]

I've not bred a little - yet - but I do believe very strongly that it will my life's work. That being said, I believe for me the greater feeling would to breed the dog. I am banking on Moxy to be my first titled field dog, but she carries the Stoneface prefix so I can almost fake it.

I don't get why people breed dogs "just to breed," or "because I want a pup out of Ol' Belle." Just doesn't make any sense. If you breed without any predetermined plan and don't carry on a line, however undefinable as a line, then you'd be just as well off picking a pup up from someone else's litter. This sort of "breeder" is the reason for the flooded puppy market in the world of birddogs. If people would stop taking Ol' Belle and breeding it to Rocket, the Shorthair that belongs to Farmer John from down the way, there wouldn't be the bottleneck of puppies we have on our hands now. That goes the same for breeding Ol' Belle to the newest national champ just because you want a litter out of her. In other words, there's not much point in breeding unless you're going to have an actual breeding program.

I'm off the soap box...

[Winchey]

What if old Belle is an exceptional specimen.

[cjhills]

I've not bred a little - yet - but I do believe very strongly that it will my life's work. That being said, I believe for me the greater feeling would to breed the dog. I am banking on Moxy to be my first titled field dog, but she carries the Stoneface prefix so I can almost fake it.

I don't get why people breed dogs "just to breed," or "because I want a pup out of Ol' Belle." Just doesn't make any sense. If you breed without any predetermined plan and don't carry on a line, however undefinable as a line, then you'd be just as well off picking a pup up from someone else's litter. This sort of "breeder" is the reason for the flooded puppy market in the world of birddogs. If people would stop taking Ol' Belle and breeding it to Rocket, the Shorthair that belongs to Farmer John from down the way, there wouldn't be the bottleneck of puppies we have on our hands now. That goes the same for breeding Ol' Belle to the newest national champ just because you want a litter out of her. In other words, there's not much point in breeding unless you're going to have an actual breeding program.

I'm off the soap box...

This is assuming everybody wants a field champion. Some don't. Ol' Belle X Rocket might be just what we want and I have seen some National Champion GSPs that didn't produce worth a hoot. I won't go farther with that.
It would be great to breed, train and handle a national field champion, unfortunatly, It's not gonna happen. Cj

[will-kelly]

If the choice is buy or breed I say breed.

With that said, everyone on here knows that breeding is only part of the equation. If breeding was the only factor then you could just keep remixing FC DNA and do less work.

It's just not that simple.

For those that field trial breeding FC's is a lucrative business and I don't think there are to many pros that buy over breed. Buying a dog that doesn't work out becomes a complete waste of time. Breeding a dog that doesn't work out becomes a finished dog for sale with their kennel's name on it. In the end even though that dog doesn't run as a FC it's a hard charging pointing billboard for the kennel.

In the end I would rather breed then buy but I don't have the time or the passion and would rather hunt as often as I can. Waiting around for puppies to ween while there's birds in the field is not how I want to spend my hunting season.

[Saddle]

Do you plan to breed your Roxy dog?

To answer the question I feel like you have a better chance of developing a legitimate champion dog if you breed a litter and keep all of them to evaluate. It would be more gratifying to do it that way in my opinion.

[Saddle]

For those that field trial breeding FC's is a lucrative business and I don't think there are to many pros that buy over breed. Buying a dog that doesn't work out becomes a complete waste of time. Breeding a dog that doesn't work out becomes a finished dog for sale with their kennel's name on it. In the end even though that dog doesn't run as a FC it's a hard charging pointing billboard for the kennel.

Yeah but if you're trying to promote a stud dog or a bitch as a legit producer of field trial dogs the more gundogs they spit out the less likely other field trialers are to consider pups out of that cross in the future. So it is a billboard but not a positive billboard. Just depends on what you're trying to promote.

[Cajun Casey]

Buying a prospect that turns out means you have the talent to see past what's in your kennel already, so I'd say buying is the ultimate measure of ability to predict success.

[ultracarry]

Do you plan to breed your Roxy dog?

To answer the question I feel like you have a better chance of developing a legitimate champion dog if you breed a litter and keep all of them to evaluate. It would be more gratifying to do it that way in my opinion.

That's why I didn't breed mine yet, want to keep at least 80% of em and the others are going to a friend or two...

[Double Shot Banks]

Nobody knows the puppies better than the man who see's them since day one.

[Saddle]

Buying a prospect that turns out means you have the talent to see past what's in your kennel already, so I'd say buying is the ultimate measure of ability to predict success.

It means you got really lucky. It is in no way at all is an evaluation of a trainers talent.

[SCT]

To answer the question I feel like you have a better chance of developing a legitimate champion dog if you breed a litter and keep all of them to evaluate. It would be more gratifying to do it that way in my opinion.

I agree with this 100%. Also, to do it right IMO, there will most likely be culls. I'll go one step farther, If you're going to breed, you should also have the desire to produce breeding stock. At least that's what I spend my money on. A breeder that produces "Breeding Stock" has some very complicated guidelines to follow IMO.

Steve

[ezzy333]

To answer the question I feel like you have a better chance of developing a legitimate champion dog if you breed a litter and keep all of them to evaluate. It would be more gratifying to do it that way in my opinion.

I agree with this 100%. Also, to do it right IMO, there will most likely be culls. I'll go one step farther, If you're going to breed, you should also have the desire to produce breeding stock. At least that's what I spend my money on. A breeder that produces "Breeding Stock" has some very complicated guidelines to follow IMO.

Steve

So what is the differnce between breeding stock and a good hunring dog? And whatis the difference in producing them?

ERzzy

[Winchey]

Nothing, depending on what you think constitutes a good hunting dog.

[Saddle]

Just because a dog is a good birddog doesn't mean he's worthy of being bred. Being a good hunting dog is only a small part of what goes into the overall evaluation of whether a dog should be bred or not.

Other things I look at.
Style. Class pointing and running. Nose. Trainability. Honesty. Natural ability. Conformation. Gait. Personality. Natural forward running. Range.

That's just a few things but they can't be answered by just asking if he's a good hunting dog.

[Meller]

You left out natural retrieve and natural backing.

[Saddle]

No I didn't. I put natural ability.

Retrieving and backing can be taught. The intangibles that make a great dog great cannot.

[SCT]

Breeding stock should also have a clean skeleton, including bite. Also, breeding stock shouldn't have unhealthy things like cancer or dysplasia (sp?) in it's history, or at least very close up. Any bird dog from decent breeding can make a great hunting dog, but that sure isn't a good enough reason to breed it IMO. Our responsibility is to take the breeds forward, not backward. Nothing wrong with a backyard breeder putting two nice dogs together, the problem is them selling all the pups without knowing what they will take forward or knowing what's in their past (ie health issues).

Ezzy, very surprised it's you asking that question.

[bossman]

Good question. I think if I had what I thought was a superior female, I'd follow ultracarrys' philosophy. If not, I'd agree with Cajun Casey. I'm just looking for the best dog while trying not to be "kennel blind". The same amount of time, effort and $$$ would be put into either.

[pointer]

I breed and keep a fair amount of pups to evalute. Each breeder should have dogs that are consistent with what they want and like in a bird dog. Whether they are field trialed or simply a great line of fine hunting dogs, there should be a consistency in all their dogs within a given program. I see too many dogs that are great hunting but have faults that are overlooked by the owner/breeder. As mentioned, they should be the complete dog in everyway and being a great hunter is never enought to qualify a dog as breedable.

Selling pups are a part of all programs. But if keeping a bunch and spending a ton of money developing their own pups is outshadowed by the number of pups they sell, I don't know if I would consider it a program with a lot of direction. I am going to say they are more about selling pups than developing a program.

Breeding pups is very rewarding and particularly if you have some success in seeing them meet the goals of your program. But in my opinion, most would be best to buy a pup from a program that produces a dog of the type they want.

[Stoneface]

What if old Belle is an exceptional specimen.

If all you had to do to breed exceptional dogs was find an excpetional female and take her to an exceptional male, don't you think we'd have more excpetional dogs in the world? I think the average jo expects that great begets great begets great. That's just not necessarily the way it is. You can look at the records to see this, but it's understandable why the average jo thinks this way.

If you go back and look at pedigrees of the biggest name in birddog history you'll typically see famous names backing the dog up, but how many average or fair dogs were produced to find that one amazing dog? By all means, if you're going to breed two dogs together, it's gonna be a better idea to breed two good dogs than two average dogs, but there's more to the equation than that. By my mind ice cream and beans are both great, but probably wouldn't be something I'd want to mix.

If it were as easy as mixing two great dogs to produce more great dogs, then why do you continually see specific names at the top of each game? Top Gun, Long Gone, Elhew, Miller, etc. They don't just take their best male and breed it to their best female, they have a plan behind it.

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I wish more people discouraged frivelous breeding so we wouldn't be producing puppies faster than we could kill them. Just not much point.

[brad27]

^

[Cajun Casey]

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I wish more people discouraged frivelous breeding so we wouldn't be producing puppies faster than we could kill them. Just not much point.

I would like to know upon what you base this statement since it seems to occur frequently in your comments.

[tn red]

Top Gun, Long Gone, Elhew, Miller, etc. They don't just take their best male and breed it to their best female, they have a plan behind it.

Are you sure about this statement?

[Stoneface]

Felicia, common sense is a big part of it. With dogs in general, pounds are having to turn dogs away because they can't produce the kill juice fast enough to control their numbers. There are more dogs out there than we can physically euthenize with what's deemed "humane" methods. Beyond that, I know several people who are involved with birddog rescue who will scream it from the rooftops that there are too many field-bred birddogs and not enough field homes. The bottom has fallen out of the market for birddogs and you can just see in every facet of birddogs that involvement was waned. It's simple economics. Too much supply and not enough demand to justify it. We are way beyond equilibrium.

Red, I'm pretty sure. Steve is mindful of his operation and goes at it very scholastically and no one can doubt Wehle was schooled in genetics, whether you like him or not. He preached that numbers had a lot to do with it because he said luck was a big part of breeding great dogs, but like the old saying goes, luck favores the prepared. I've spoken via eMail about breeding strategy with the folks at Long Gone and they have a similar philosophy, but I can honestly say adding Ferel Miller to that list was strictly stipulation. I've only ever talked to him on the phone for about five seconds and was so intimidated I just hung up!

Lloyd Brackett said compesnation is the bedrock to a successful breeding program. That's matching sires and dams who compliment each other well and make up for each other's faults. Bob Wehle spoke about the same thing in Wing and Shot. Said he had his score sheet and would not take any dog that was less than average in any area and wanted a female to be strong where a male was weak and a male to be strong where a female was weak. When you find dogs that nick you're finding dogs that compliment and compensate each other's strengths and weaknesses extremely well.

[SCT]

That's what I thought you were talking about Stoneface. I think ideally the best option would be to breed the male that has all the best traits to a female that has all the best traits. Then save and place the pups with all the best traits passed to them. While all along, the pups with less quality traits are being terminated, or at least not papered. Harsh...yeah, but to really produce the best, these sacrifices must be made. However and unfortunately, only a few have what it takes to do the best thing for the breeds.

I don't know much, but I do know I would love to produce a litter out of my little female, and raise the pups up at least to the age I can tell which ones are keepers and which ones are culls. Then go further and find the best pup for future breeding stock, then do it again and again always keeping the goal in mind to produce a better line. The truth is however, I don't have the room nor facilities to do this, so I'll keep buying the best pups I can.

Steve

[Cajun Casey]

Felicia, common sense is a big part of it. With dogs in general, pounds are having to turn dogs away because they can't produce the kill juice fast enough to control their numbers. There are more dogs out there than we can physically euthenize with what's deemed "humane" methods. Beyond that, I know several people who are involved with birddog rescue who will scream it from the rooftops that there are too many field-bred birddogs and not enough field homes. The bottom has fallen out of the market for birddogs and you can just see in every facet of birddogs that involvement was waned. It's simple economics. Too much supply and not enough demand to justify it. We are way beyond equilibrium.

That is simply not true, any of it, except the inclination of rescue people to scream from rooftops or anywhere else their disjointed rambling might take them. :roll:

[cjhills]

Top Gun, Long Gone, Elhew, Miller, etc. They don't just take their best male and breed it to their best female, they have a plan behind it.

Are you sure about this statement?

Stone Face:
At least one of the programs you listed was started with four mediocre dogs from the same litter. The lead bitch was bred to the popular sire of the day, Five or six litters from different sires. most all puppies were sold. There were a lot of genetic issues in these dogs and the biggest asset to the program was the breeders flare for self promotion. The main goal was puppies that would sell. They have since got totally away from the original line of dogs and bought stud dogs from other kennels. I have researched these dogs extensively. Don't believe everything you read on a web site.
In the end you need to be able to sell some of the dogs. I know this because I have a kennel full of dogs I liked so much I couldn't part with them.
Incidentally we have no problem with selling puppies and have a waiting list.in spite of the economy.
Unless you have very deep pockets and are ruthless enough to terminate a whole litter some times you are not going to have much effect on the breed of your choice. Some of the great GSPs of our time were average dogs who great because they were promoted. Keep in mind H. H. was a accidental breeding. Cj

[JuliaH]

It gave me a LOT of satisfaction to produce my first Field Champion from my breeding choice out of my own female and sired by a dog I carefully chose. Annie was not trained by me, but I am working on AFC now with her. She is pictured below.





Julia

I'm curious to know which would give you the most satisfaction or if it would make a difference???.Would you rather buy or breed, your first or future FC or does it make a difference to you?

[Stoneface]

Felicia, unless you're talking about kennels in the top so many percent of any breed, the puppy/dog market is down. Just not enough demand. I bought The Moxy Dog for $200 because he couldn't get rid of her. I rescued a Pointer from up north that wouldn't have made it to two years old because there wasn't the demand for him... and this dog went back to champions and national champions and dogs you'd have no problem picking out in a pedigree. Now his new owner is head over hills with him and loves him to death, says he's the greatest thing since sliced bread. Just wasn't the demand. I know a guy from this board who bred a litter of Setters, lives about forty-five minutes from me. Great guy who bred that litter who had some really great dogs in the pedigree and didn't get rid of the pups until well after six months. Another friend I met at Crook's trial in fall 2010 had a litter out of a national champ that he ended up advertising from Iowa to Texas for FREE! and it took him until the dogs were well over six months to place them all. The top contenders in any game are going to always have the demand, but by and large the demand is down.

C, Steve is real open about all this when you talk to him. He says that he re-evaluated his parameters, set goals and took after his new breeding venture in a more tactical way. This is exactly what I'm talking about. At first the dogs may not have been up to par with the standard of greatness, but after getting serious and laying out a plan Steve is on TV shows, his dogs are all over the country and I believe they're international, he can't hardly find anyone to say a cross word about him and his dogs are just all around great birddogs. Not going to run any AA trials any time soon, but that's not what he was going for.

If you don't have any trouble placing your pups and it's what you want to do, I say go for it. I just wish not so many people would breed "just because." Dogs reproduce exponentially, so when you breed a little bitch, that one dog could result in dozens. Which means if you have four or five little bitches in a litter, that could represent potentially hundreds of other dogs which could represent thousands. I'm not an authority and this is America, so I have no place to tell the next guy that he can't breed dogs, but I'm likewise entitled to my opinion and feel real strongly about this one.

[Sierra Wirehair]

We have breed two GWP litters. Both dogs had lineage to quality animals and were good hunters but not directly out of champion dogs. The litters turned out fine but I felt a bit irresponsible for these breedings. I feel like reputable breeders do a lot of homework in the breeding of quality animals. More than just the likes and dislikes of a personal dog. IMO, I think home breeding is great if you begin with a proven animal from a quality kenel.

Mic

[pointer]

Most who are having issues selling pups are guys who have a few nice dogs and breed them. They set the price at the market for their area and sometimes above that and then find out after moving one or two and sitting on five or six that this breeding and selling thing is not as easy as they thought. For the guys who have bigger programs, reputations, and larger sources for contacts interested in what they are producing, getting rid of pups is not an issue. The average guy who only has a few dogs does not have enough awareness in the public or avenues for advertising his dogs. The guys with bigger kennels and bigger programs normally have a waiting list.

I am small potatoes to most of the bigger programs, but at the beginning of this year, I had about 15 people on a list for pointers and about 12 on a list for setters and 4 for started dogs. My issues are trying to produce enought to satisfy the demand without simply breeding indiscrimately. I am not saying that there are not a lot of pups flooded into the market, but most of the people having issues are what most would describe as backyard breeders. I have however seen a lot of nice dogs produced by guys who simply have three or four really nice hunting dogs. Find the right backyard guy and you can find a gem. I have also seen good marketing selling a whole lot of junk. You just need to find the dog that suits your individual needs.

[Elkhunter]

Just because a dog is a good birddog doesn't mean he's worthy of being bred. Being a good hunting dog is only a small part of what goes into the overall evaluation of whether a dog should be bred or not.

Other things I look at.
Style. Class pointing and running. Nose. Trainability. Honesty. Natural ability. Conformation. Gait. Personality. Natural forward running. Range.

That's just a few things but they can't be answered by just asking if he's a good hunting dog.

A good bird dog will have most of those. Without a good bird dog all the style in the world is useless, if a dog runs pretty but cant find a bird whats that gonna do for ya?

[Saddle]

The key here is what is a persons definition of a nice dog.

[Cajun Casey]

Most who are having issues selling pups are guys who have a few nice dogs and breed them. They set the price at the market for their area and sometimes above that and then find out after moving one or two and sitting on five or six that this breeding and selling thing is not as easy as they thought. For the guys who have bigger programs, reputations, and larger sources for contacts interested in what they are producing, getting rid of pups is not an issue. The average guy who only has a few dogs does not have enough awareness in the public or avenues for advertising his dogs. The guys with bigger kennels and bigger programs normally have a waiting list.

I am small potatoes to most of the bigger programs, but at the beginning of this year, I had about 15 people on a list for pointers and about 12 on a list for setters and 4 for started dogs. My issues are trying to produce enought to satisfy the demand without simply breeding indiscrimately. I am not saying that there are not a lot of pups flooded into the market, but most of the people having issues are what most would describe as backyard breeders. I have however seen a lot of nice dogs produced by guys who simply have three or four really nice hunting dogs. Find the right backyard guy and you can find a gem. I have also seen good marketing selling a whole lot of junk. You just need to find the dog that suits your individual needs.

I have one or two people a week ask for a breeder on some sporting breed or another with the exception of Labs and pointers. Can't find setters at all around here right now.

[Stoneface]

To keep from hijacking this thread anymore than it already has been: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=41041

[Sierra Wirehair]

I guess nice dog is a general descriptor. I was thinking a ruputable breeder of multiple decades, national champions, and then you will have the possiblility of a solid prospect. Most importantly you will will get a healthy prospect because breeders of reputable stock usually do all of the health testing.

Mic

[Elkhunter]

The key here is what is a persons definition of a nice dog.

I was just laughing that you said a "good bird dog" is just a small part of the equation. I think its probably the biggest part of the equation, I was just hunting with a friend this past weekend that has won numerous hour CH's and we were discussing how everyone puts so much emphasis on everything but the "birddog". Aint ever gonna win or shoot birds if you are not finding them, no matter how pretty!

I would much rather get a pup out of a proven hunting dog that hunts 30-40 times a year, regardless of pedigree, than some styled up pretty dog pointing a pigeon in some dudes backyard thats yet to see its first wild bird!

[ezzy333]

The key here is what is a persons definition of a nice dog.

I was just laughing that you said a "good bird dog" is just a small part of the equation. I think its probably the biggest part of the equation, I was just hunting with a friend this past weekend that has won numerous hour CH's and we were discussing how everyone puts so much emphasis on everything but the "birddog". Aint ever gonna win or shoot birds if you are not finding them, no matter how pretty!

I would much rather get a pup out of a proven hunting dog that hunts 30-40 times a year, regardless of pedigree, than some styled up pretty dog pointing a pigeon in some dudes backyard thats yet to see its first wild bird!

Amen and it can be the same dog but it not always is. I think Delmar Smiyh had about as could a method of picking the best pup as there is when he suggested shut your eyes and pick one or wait till they all are gone and take the one no one else wants. There are probably more FC that were tell pup that noone wanted than any other. Ask Brenda at Walnut Hill and she will tell you how her DC's were pups that were sent back to them because the buyers didn't like them.

Ezzy

[Saddle]

Elk I fully agree but I think the sport of field trialing as a whole has gotten away from being about finding the best birddog. Sad but true. Heck you can win an all age ch with two well spaced finds in an hour. But if a guy wants to play the trial game he has to play within the guidelines as to what a judge wants to see.

I've had some jam up birddogs over the years that I would have never bred for one reason or another. I guess my point is when I think of breeding stock I think of it coming from the various field trial venues and in those venues how good a birddog you have is only a small piece. One that I personally wish more importance was placed on but I don't forsee that happening.

[Neil]

No I didn't. I put natural ability.

Retrieving and backing can be taught. The intangibles that make a great dog great cannot.

Well said, and so true. The ability to find wild birds when they are rare with class, style, speed, endurance, and cooperation (with proper independence) are those important intangibles that matter. I can train the rest.

Of all my dogs I have only bred one, the rest I bought as wee pups, I have never bought a started dog. I learned early that there are many more knowledgeable breeders, I trust them.

[Saddle]

You're right on Neil. That's where the measure of a good one is in my opinion.