Speed and Stamina

[SD Pheasant Slayer]

Just reading through the current Shooting Dog / AA thread, I came across some comments that caught my attention, and not wanting to sidetrack that thread, I figured I'd ask them in a new one. There were a handful of posts regarding the stamina of the field trial dogs and some bickering about a dog's speed while hunting and "pacing" itself. Someone mentioned that their dog could hunt for 4-5 hours before running out of gas as opposed to trial setting where a dog might run wide open for only an hour. My question to you guys is, how many of the different hunters/trialers on the board would be satisfied owning a dog that really tears it up for 4-5 hours versus one that can hunt at a more moderate pace all day? The reason I ask is it's not terribly unusual for myself and some friends to start the day out chasing sharpies/chickens at sunrise and then switch to pheasant and hunt til sunset. Regardless of how much ground he covers while he's hunting, I'd be frustrated if my dog couldn't hunt all day with me. Now, this most certainly isn't meant to be a knock on the field trial dogs out there. There is no doubt in my mind that they probably cover more ground in a shorter time period than my dog does all day (rarely getting out past 2-300 yards). And my dog most certainly couldn't run wide open or nearly so for remotely as long as the top field trial dogs do. But, I only have one dog so switching them out for a fresh one isn't an option, thus that type of dog isn't one that would suit me ideally. Just curious what others thought. Again... not trashing anybody's style of dog. For all I know, those comments weren't necessarily applicable to most field trial dogs, and even if they are, I could certainly understand how that would suit some people's hunting style perfectly. I was just curious what different people on here expected from their dogs in terms of speed and stamina and if those expectations differed between the field trial and hunting crowds.

[Allin13]

I would never hunt my ft dog for 4-5 hours.

[Winchey]

I like to switch dogs every hour or so. It is not that the can't go longer, I just like watching a fresh dog. I think most dogs will run at a more moderate pace if you consistently have them down for 4 or 5 hours as opposed to 1.

[UpNorthHuntin]

I would never hunt my ft dog for 4-5 hours.

But if you had a "hunting" dog that could go all day, would it be possible to run that dog in field trials? I have wondered the same. I only have one as well. My intent is to have a very productive and enjoyable hunting partner that I can hunt steady for a week for 3-4 hours a day. He obviously will have to be in top shape, but can a dog "flip the switch" after time to hunt at break neck speed for an hour as apposed to a steady slow pace all day. IMO that would be "my" ideal bird dog.

[RayGubernat]

I gave a dog to my son last year. He was six years old. This dog could hang with anything out there for an hour in front of a horse at least in any of the trials I attended which are in the NE and Middle Atlantic including a couple of Amateur all age stakes.

My son called me, laughing , after his first hunt. FWIW, my son is in pretty decent shape. He runs a ten miler every year and a few shorter runs. Anyhow, he hunted for about six hours straight. The dog put it all out there for about three hours and then started to come back around as if to say "Aren't we done yet?" My son said the dog was kinda sore after the first hunt.

After about the third such hunt, my son said that the dog dialed it down a notch at the start of the hunt and was fine for all day.

I had occasion to run him in front of a horse in mid-hunting season and he came off the line like he was shot out of a gun,much as he always had. From what I could tell, he hadn't lost a step.

I'm guessing he figured it out.

RayG

[Allin13]

upnorthuntin, the problem when you hunt a dog 3-4 times a week for 2-4hrs at a time is you will run into a dog thats gait is that of a dog that hunts all day.

Once my dogs are good on birds I road them, and maybe let them hunt for 30min at a time.

[Tyler S]

I don't compete with my dogs, but about 2 hours max running them in pairs. A lot of times we are are hunting in 70 degree weather here. I know my dogs and can tell when they start tiring out. Like a previous poster said I like to see fresh dogs out. I'll give them a break then put them out again. On woodcock I have hunted one or two 5-6 hours in cold weather. It all just depends.

[Saddle]

This is a really good subject. If I feel for 1 second that my dog is starting to slow and pace hisself I pick him up. I think you want a birddog to be in shape but I don't think you want them to ever think they're going to be on the ground for 5 hours. That leads them to think they need to pace themselves which is not what I want in a trial dog. This is 1 of the primary reasons I vary my workout times when I'm running off the horse. I want them to go flat out until I pick them up. A dog that is settled into a hunting pace type lick is not pleasing to me and it's not about what I want to watch all day.

There's a world of difference in a dog whos pace has slowed do to his time on the ground but he still digging hard and 1 that has paced himself right from the get go.

[UpNorthHuntin]

I was just curious what different people on here expected from their dogs in terms of speed and stamina and if those expectations differed between the field trial and hunting crowds.

I agree... very good post. I think I got it... I will be hunting mostly productive unting spots "my honey holes" in Michigan. Most can be covered in an hour and a half at a time. Then I might put the pup in the crate and drive for a half hour to the next "honey hole". Let him rest and back at it for an hour or so. With thathe should be able to run at a pretty good clip for a couple spots per day. I think, if I understand it correctly, what you want is a dog that hunts productice spots at a blistering pace, and one that doesn't "settle into" a slow pace in non productive areas. I want a second dog as well, but that may be a couple years down the road, so until then I think if you want to trial a dog and hunt him, you have to find that happy medium so the dog is not conditioned to hunt one way or the other all of the time?

[Tyler S]

This is going to be pretty good. Iam anxious to see how other folks in different areas hunt their dogs!

[ezzy333]

I think Ray nailed it. A good dog will know how to hunt and at what speed if you give it a trip or two to figure it out. I don't think all day hunts slow a dog down at all if it has run in a few trials. It is exactly the same as having an AA dog hunt closer when you are just hunting. Dogs aren't real smart but they aren't completely stupid either.

Ezzy

[mask]

How long a dog can hunt at a given pace may depend on the country and the quarry. We hunt chukar for the most part in country that could cripple a mule. I would not hunt all day in that terrain and would not expect a dog to either. A dog that runs at full speed (what ever that might be)for 5 hours in flat or rolling ground can't keep the same pace in the rimrock. The bottom line is it depends on the dog and the country.

[jetjockey]

I think everyone has a different idea as to what a "moderate" pace is. I also think you can't have this discussion without discussing what kind of cover the dog is hunting. Is "moderate" 2-3 MPH in knocked down milo with 5 inches if snow on the ground? Or is moderate 5-7 Mph on the open prairies in knee high grass that offers little resistance to the dog? Without actual GPS data, it's hard to make a good comparison as well.

[Allin13]

AA dogs stay close when hunting because they know that e-collar! take it off and there goes the fire.

[ezzy333]

I think everyone has a different idea as to what a "moderate" pace is. I also think you can't have this discussion without discussing what kind of cover the dog is hunting. Is "moderate" 2-3 MPH in knocked down milo with 5 inches if snow on the ground? Or is moderate 5-7 Mph on the open prairies in knee high grass that offers little resistance to the dog? Without actual GPS data, it's hard to make a good comparison as well.

Good point.

Ezzy

[Tyler S]

I think everyone has a different idea as to what a "moderate" pace is. I also think you can't have this discussion without discussing what kind of cover the dog is hunting. Is "moderate" 2-3 MPH in knocked down milo with 5 inches if snow on the ground? Or is moderate 5-7 Mph on the open prairies in knee high grass that offers little resistance to the dog? Without actual GPS data, it's hard to make a good comparison as well.

Good point!

[orbirdhunter]

My experience is limited....But my britt seems to have two different speeds....the we are out on foot and dad has a gun speed.......and the dad is on the horse so i need to hit the after burner speed......
Basically my dog seems to recognize the difference between being out hunting and running off horseback.

[slistoe]

I think quite a few have mentioned it already - but if you continually put a dog down for very long stretches the dog will learn to not go. That is different than the dog that didn't go in the first place.
I like a dog that hunts flat out. I rotate them on 2 hour shifts. That is not a function of field trialing - I very quickly moved to multiple dogs when I started hunting so I could shift off and hunt behind fresh dogs all day. At this level the dogs never see a need to pace themselves. It was only many years later when I had defined what I liked in a hunting dog that I discovered I was essentially hunting with trial dogs.
Just because the dogs are hunting flat out for 2 hours means nothing about their ability to go all day. As they tire they physically cannot keep up the same pace but the heart and grit that drives them all out will still drive them to keep going at whatever speed they can muster. On occasion I have found myself in a situation where we were out with "all day" dogs and the opportunity was not afforded to be able to rotate dogs. Regardless of how tired and slow and short my dogs became, they were always still faster and ahead of the "all day" dogs. This certainly does not describe all dogs I have owned or now own, but it does describe the ones that I consider "good dogs". The rest are simply adequate.

[Saddle]

I think the GPS has taught me a bunch about my dogs. My derby is pretty consistent off the horse for an hour at about 11.5 to 12 mph avg for the hour. That's in wide open flint hill country of KS that is rocky but nothing like chukar country but hilly and rocky and rough just the same. In the bottom country on the bean edges he turns it up another gear and flies down the edges at about 13.5 to 14 MPH as an avg in an hour brace. Its really opened my eyes as to what a bigger stronger dog is capable of. Its also made cast judging pretty accurate!

[Aslowhiteguy]

I don't trial so I would always opt for the dog that will hunt all day. If they're in shape they can do it, but not in the early season when it's still hot.

[campgsp]

I don't recall ever owning a shorthair that got tired out hunting only 5 hours. My 11 year old I can hunt 10 hours and he still goes strong. Most of the time getting them to leave is the problem they still want to continue to hunt. I love that!

I hunt hard 4 or more days a week during the season and I've never had to use a "fresh dog" because one got tired.

I think if you were not to keep up with your dogs training, free run , and exercise in general and let them get out of shape hunts would be over quick. Terrain would probably be a significant factor as well. But most of my hunting is done on flat or large hills not mountains.

[Tejas]

I've only had one that would or could hunt all day and he was about as far from being a field trial dog as one can be. By the way, there are "bleep" few dogs that anyone who cared about their dogs health would run for a full day most of the time in Texas.

[Aslowhiteguy]

I've only had one that would or could hunt all day and he was about as far from being a field trial dog as one can be. By the way, there are "bleep" few dogs that anyone who cared about their dogs health would run for a full day most of the time in Texas.

Yeah, Texas would be a different story. Once it gets cool out here, hunting a well conditioned dog all day is not a problem and isn't uncommon at all. They just have to learn to pace themselves, just like we do. And hunting all day doesn't mean they don't get called in for water and a break every so often.

[jetjockey]

Again, it goes back to what different people want in a dog. There is no way, even a well conditioned dog, can hunt all day at the pace I want. 4-5 hrs is the max 90% of the dogs I've ever seen can go at a decent pace. That's where the GPS comes into play. I had a lab guy once ask me why my Brit couldn't hunt pheasants all day like his lab could. I politely told him that if I had to sit behind his lab all day at the speed that it hunts, I might shoot myself, rather than the poor pheasants. I try to watch all the upland shows on the outdoor channels. If my dog hunted at the same speed those dogs hunt, I'd be embarrassed for myself every time I put my dog down. Different strokes for different folks, neither is right or wrong, it's just different.

[Saddle]

I think people's definition of "still going hard" is vastly different sometimes.

[SCT]

I think people's definition of "still going hard" is vastly different sometimes.

+1

[WoodisGood]

I'm with you jetjockey. After 3-4 hours turn out a pair of fresh dogs. Some people would be surprised how many more birds they could find if their dogs were hunting harder. I know I get a little more spring in my step when a fresh pair hit the ground.

[Vision]

I would never hunt my ft dog for 4-5 hours.

I do.

[Allin13]

Vision, i just think when you do that too much it promotes a slower gate, more ground sniffing and less snap . If it works for yo and no problems keep at it!

[ezzy333]

I think what every one is forgetting is the huge majority of hunters have one dog while a few may have two. That is what governs what type of dog they want and need. Seems we often forget that we need to produce what our customers want and not what we want. Successful businesses of all kinds have to follow that pattern or they are not around very long.

Ezzy

[UpNorthHuntin]

I think what every one is forgetting is the huge majority of hunters have one dog while a few may have two. That is what governs what type of dog they want and need. Seems we often forget that we need to produce what our customers want and not what we want. Successful businesses of all kinds have to follow that pattern or they are not around very long.

Ezzy

Thank you Ezzy. Not to start a great debate, but this is one of the things that does bother me a little. I want a terrific hunting partner in my Britt, but I also would like for him and his offspring to have better value if I decide to breed him to a bitch in a few years. To increase value he needs titles and therein lies the rub. He will compete with many dogs that are trialers only and it will be pretty hard to compete and win against a dog that is a competition trial dog. The more people breed for Competition and trialing it becomes more difficult to find "just a hunting companion" dog.

[Winchey]

I think what every one is forgetting is the huge majority of hunters have one dog while a few may have two. That is what governs what type of dog they want and need. Seems we often forget that we need to produce what our customers want and not what we want. Successful businesses of all kinds have to follow that pattern or they are not around very long.

Ezzy

Thank you Ezzy. Not to start a great debate, but this is one of the things that does bother me a little. I want a terrific hunting partner in my Britt, but I also would like for him and his offspring to have better value if I decide to breed him to a bitch in a few years. To increase value he needs titles and therein lies the rub. He will compete with many dogs that are trialers only and it will be pretty hard to compete and win against a dog that is a competition trial dog. The more people breed for Competition and trialing it becomes more difficult to find "just a hunting companion" dog.

I feel like you haven't even read the thread.

[Saddle]

Ezzy when I decide to breed a dog it is entirely with my own wants and needs in mind. I'm only after the kind of dog I want and really couldn't care less what everyone else is looking for. I think there are a lot of folks who breed with only one thought behind it and that's just to sell pups. I'm not one of those folks.

[Allin13]

Upnorthuntin, maybe im taking this the wrong way but what your saying is that you want to run field trials but not against great dogs? Running against the best is how you know if you have the best. If you want just a hunting dog hunt test are great!

[Saddle]

I think if you hunt the dog in the same manner you trial him you'll be ok. I never foot hunt my horseback dogs.

[Allin13]

+1 saddle

[jetjockey]

I wonder how many of you have actually foot hunted your trial dogs in order to form a real opinion. How many of you have given the dog the chance to prove that it's actually very easy to do both, and that dogs are way smarter than we give them credit for? I can tell you that I do both, and that my Brit competes at the very highest level against the best Brits in the country. Yet somehow she manages a placement here and there and has even managed to crack the top 10 in Purina AA points the last two years in a row. Not bad for a 4.5yr old dog who didn't even run AA the first half of the year the first year she finished top 10. She has managed to place in 1hr AA trials from Bama, to Ohio, Iowa, Missouri, and in the Praries of Nebraska, all against the top Pros with the top strings, all in totally different environments.

I won't say she can simply flip a switch and go from one to the other, but from what I've seen it only takes one or two runs off HB, or off foot, before she is back in FT or hunting mode. Teach the dog the difference, don't muddy the water in between, and it's not that hard for them to do both.

[Winchey]

Upnorth, run him anyways, rest him a couple days before he competes. Maybe he he will learn to flip the switch. Also hunt with a bunch of other dogs and decide if your dog is going to bring anything to the table that these other dogs aren't before you breed. That's how I look at it anyways, lots of people trial their hunting dogs.

Run in spring trials or the late summer, early fall trials before hunting season. It shouldn't be hard to limit your training sessions in the off season if you feel like running trials during the season and your dog being down for 5 hours a day will hurt you.

[jetjockey]

Not to derail the topic any more, but UpNorth mentioned breeding his dog to a bitch that he desires. Typically UpNorth, it's not the owner of the sire who decides who he breeds to, it's the owner of the bitch. Unless your dog turns out to be one of the top dogs in the country, you are not likely to find a top bitch who's owner will want to breed to you. I'm sure toucan find one to breed to, but it most likely wont be the caliber of dog who will further the breed.

[Allin13]

Jetjocky, do you think if your dog knew one switch he would win more? As if he was just a trial dog

[ezzy333]

Ezzy when I decide to breed a dog it is entirely with my own wants and needs in mind. I'm only after the kind of dog I want and really couldn't care less what everyone else is looking for. I think there are a lot of folks who breed with only one thought behind it and that's just to sell pups. I'm not one of those folks.

And you are yet to be successful by your own words. But you have that right if that is what it takes to make you happy.

Ezzy

[RayGubernat]

I for one have always hunted my dogs...on foot. Most of my hunting is on state WMA's or commercial preserves. Wheri live, there are no wild birds to speak of except woodcock for a short period, spring and fall. I trial them mostly off horseback, but occasionally on foot.

I train on foot and I train of horseback. I expect the dog to alter its ground application accordingly. if it does not do so voluntarily...I alter it for him. It IS called training after all.

The dogs learn do do what I need them to do. I am not saying I can foot hunt a dog on a 30 acre preserve stocfked with ten pheasants one day and go run a one hour all age horseback trial with the same dog the next day...and expect to place...

BUT, I sure can(and have) foot hunted a dog on a Wednesday and run that same dog in a half hour horseback shooting dog stake on Friday or Saturday...and placed.


I find the biggest issue for me with hunting the dogs is to keep them stone dead broke. I HATE to lose birds, especially wounded ones and will have the dog(s) hunt dead until they find the bird. This can tend to get the dog a tad unravelled, especially a younger one.

To the fellow who was complaining about having to compete against dogs that were only trialed and not hunted...You gotta work harder... and smarter. The dog you can foot hunt with will(or should) have a bond with you that the trial dog cannot hope to have.

The foot hunted dog spends HOURS in the field with its master and the two should become a team. You should know what your dog is going to do...before it does it...and your dog should know what you are going to do... before you do it also. That synergy... that being able to anticipate what your dog will do in a given situation...is a HUGE advantage if it is exploited properly. You gotta get inside their heads and you gotta let them get inside yours too. this way the dog becomes an extension of your arms and legs.

No dog that is worked in the field for an hour, twice a week and roaded twice a week for an hour can hope to attain that level of bonding with their human partner.

RayG

[jetjockey]

Jetjocky, do you think if your dog knew one switch he would win more? As if he was just a trial dog

Maybe. But not because I hunt and trial her. I'll give you an example what I mean. I brought her home from Nationals in early Dec. I then hunted her, and roaded her until I dropped her off with the trainer at her first trial of the spring season. I showed up at lunch, and she was on the ground at 2. Her first time back on the ground with the trainer was in a 1 hr AA championship. I wasnt expecting much since she hadn't been run off HB since Nationals. Her first 30 minutes weren't very impressive, but she looked more like her old trial self the last 30 minutes, and she finished well. 2 days later I ran her in the 1hr AAA and she laid down a really nice 1 hr brace and only got stronger as the hour progressed. Unfortunately she went birdless, but had she not, IMO the judges would of had to look at her. I handicapped her because she didn't get any prep for trial season, if she had a week or two back with the trainer, her chances would have been a lot better. Last year when I dropped her off for the spring circuit she had a little prep time. 2 weeks later she was RU-Ch. If I would give her a little prep time, then no, I don't think she would win more. But because I don't, I handicap her for one trial every year.

[Elkhunter]

I mainly hunt chukars, and there is no way I could go all day. I usually hunt one spot for 2-3 hours then load up and call it a day or head to another spot and put a fresh dog down for another 2-3 hours. After my last 3 day road trip my hounds were a little wore out from 3 days in a row on the ground in some nasty country.

If you think you or your dog is gonna hunt ALL day long for 3-4 days in a row in this type of country have at it!




Everyone I know foot hunts their trial dogs. They are usually hunting dogs, then trial dogs in the spring!

[Saddle]

Ezzy you're heck bent on running me down. Its ok.

I guess I consider Kansas dog of the year awards, nbha dog of the year awards, many field trial wins and placements and a good gundog side training business success. What I actually said is that I'm having little success finding a top notch all age dog. That in itself should tell you that average hunt all day hinting dog doesn't cut it because those are easy to find.

You might as well try to prove a point or pick a fight with someone else Ezzy. I'm not going to take the bait.

[southwayno]

So are these AA dogs actual hunting or just running around until they stumddle on a bird?

[brad27]

So are these AA dogs actual hunting or just running around until they stumddle on a bird?

Serious question, or are you just trollin?

[Saddle]

The ones that just run around don't win.

[Allin13]

Probably another field trial hater.

[dan v]

Serious question, or are you just trollin?

Oh...it'll catch something.