Imitiation breeding.... AI/surgical implant

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Wildweeds
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Imitiation breeding.... AI/surgical implant

Post by Wildweeds » Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:35 pm

Thought perhaps a discussion on breedings brought on by science and vetrinary intervention would be informational. A woman I know just used some fresh chilled on a gordon setter,in an exchange with her I tried to inform her of things I've learned through personal experiance and experiances of others I've known who have completed the project.Lot's of dissappointments and disasters. My own personal experiance with AI led me to the conclusion that I will never try that again as it was instrumental in leading to the demise of the bitch.My buddy did a frozen surgical implant and got himself a very nice emergency C section bill at 2 AM on a holiday weekend.Another fellow I know got the same emergency C section moonlight bill.Those two fellows ended up with one living pup each and 4 dead on the table pups.One dog carried 2 pups and the other carried 4.

Things I've learned................. X ray after 50 days,If there are less than 4 pups plan for the worst with a C section,Never use a Bitch who has not produced a live,high count pup litter via live breeding prior to messing with mother nature through science,Use an experianced stud dog to confirm the scientific bloodwork data on when the time is right. I talked with an outfit who has done alot of artificial breedings and the kennel owner told me that the scientists were killing them with a success rate of 1 breeding out of 7,Since they started using the stud dog to indicate the right time they have batted 1000 going 6 for six with large litters 7+ pups.

I've got 7 breedings saved on my old male and after seeing the trainwrecks firsthand I doubt I'll undertake it's usage,he produced on litter of really nice pups but the process and disasters that can occur make me wonder the viability of it all,The outcome of how good the pupsickles are has me wondering as well,I bought a freezzer pop and he sucks,nice pet but other than that nothing to write home about which is surprising considering the parents.

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Re: Imitiation breeding.... AI/surgical implant

Post by fuzznut » Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:19 pm

You have had some bad luck, but to say that AI's do not produce good puppies, and good litters is a real stretch.

I've done several, as the owner of the bitch and the stud. I can't say my outcomes have been the same as yours. We have had viable litters from 1 puppy to 8 puppies. One bitch had to have a C section, but I cannot blame that on the insemination method. Her mother also had a C section, that that I believe may certainly be something that one needs to watch for.

I think we need to be careful not to paint with a broad brush, I am truly sorry you have had such problems. You might want to do some research into the backgrounds of the bitches you have bred. What were the litter sizes behind her? Did mothers, sisters, aunts have to have C sections? Lots of questions, with lots of information to be gathered before you will know the answers.

Fuzz

Wildweeds
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Re: Imitiation breeding.... AI/surgical implant

Post by Wildweeds » Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:34 pm

Fuzz,

I did the research prior to fiddling with it as far as the only time I've messed with it personally and did not intend my original post to be construed as whining as much as informative for others contemplating such an undertaking.

now that you mention it I know another guy who did 9 surgical frozen semen attempts with 2 successful litters for a total of 15 pups.

I guess my point is that the science behind it for canines is nowhere near as advanced as cattle,horses and hogs.

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Re: Imitiation breeding.... AI/surgical implant

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:43 pm

I think a lot of the success or failure depends on who's doing the AI. Are they actual board certified fertility Vets or just a Vet that performs the services. There aren't a huge amount of ones that are board certified. Mine has been very successful.

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Re: Imitiation breeding.... AI/surgical implant

Post by Highway Ends Kennel » Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:36 pm

I'd be very interested to know what other Board Members experiences have been with frozen semen and AI breeding as well.

I've been involved with two pretty expensive frozen AI breeding's the last few years. Neither one took. We used two different females. Both females had healthy litter sizes before and after the Surgical AI failed. I know the vet we used does quite a few AI breeding's with dogs and claims to have around a 80% success rate. The veterinarians seem pretty confident in the science that allows them to determine the LH surge from the Progesterone blood tests they run. And therefore in their ability to determine the "optimal" time for breeding based on these tests.

I would be very interested to know

#1 - Which Veterinary Clinics have the best reputation for successful frozen AI breedings, even when using frozen semen that is less than optimal quality? The only one I've heard of is Symbioun, Inc. in Abilene, Kansas. Has anyone else heard of using an experienced stud-dog to check the time the vet determines is optimal?

#2 - The smaller size litters and problems with delivery (requiring C-sections, dead pups) seems to be a common issue brought up with AI breeding's. Is this due to the fact that the female is only breed once with the AI vs. multiple times with live breeding's? Also that frozen semen is usually not as high of quality (less motility, shorter survivability time) as fresh semen? Does a smaller size litter end up producing larger than average pups leading to more difficulties whelping?

#3. Has anybody other than Wildweeds noticed a decline in the overall quality or desirable traits from dogs out of frozen AI breeding's compared to dogs produced from similar live breedings? Has there been very many NFC or AFC Champions produced from frozen semen breeding's?

For an owner to keep a supply of frozen semen on their stud-dog, they have to go threw the additional work and expense of having a vet collect and store the semen. The owner of a bitch also usually has more expense involved purchasing the frozen semen and having a vet do the AI breeding vs. doing a live breeding. It seems like the owners of both the male and the female would be more selective on which dogs they breed and collect for frozen AI, if nothing else because of the additional expense and limited supply of the frozen semen. Wouldn't it therefore make sense that on average, frozen semen breeding's would produce a higher percentage of top notch dogs than than live breeding's? I'm not talking about a guarantee on better pups, but on average shouldn't that be the case?

Please PM or email me any references or responses you don't feel comfortable posting.

Thanks

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Re: Imitiation breeding.... AI/surgical implant

Post by KwikIrish » Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:14 am

Highway Ends Kennel wrote:I'd be very interested to know what other Board Members experiences have been with frozen semen and AI breeding as well.

I've been involved with two pretty expensive frozen AI breeding's the last few years. Neither one took. We used two different females. Both females had healthy litter sizes before and after the Surgical AI failed. I know the vet we used does quite a few AI breeding's with dogs and claims to have around a 80% success rate. The veterinarians seem pretty confident in the science that allows them to determine the LH surge from the Progesterone blood tests they run. And therefore in their ability to determine the "optimal" time for breeding based on these tests.

I would be very interested to know

#1 - Which Veterinary Clinics have the best reputation for successful frozen AI breedings, even when using frozen semen that is less than optimal quality? The only one I've heard of is Symbioun, Inc. in Abilene, Kansas. Has anyone else heard of using an experienced stud-dog to check the time the vet determines is optimal?
Milan Hess (Denver) and Greg Brown (fort Collins) have both done plenty of work for us. I have a bitch (litter of 6) out of a dog who would be about 25 years old. She is one of the best bitches we have produced(IMO) I know of dozens of exceptional dogs produced via AI, with fresh, chilled, and frozen, all over the country. We tend to prefer our first litter be produced with a live coverage, and if we breed after that, we will be more likely to consider AI. We always use progesterone, and I struggle to trust a dog as we have a bitch who will stand anything, anytime, and has, despite not being in season.
Highway Ends Kennel wrote:#2 - The smaller size litters and problems with delivery (requiring C-sections, dead pups) seems to be a common issue brought up with AI breeding's. Is this due to the fact that the female is only breed once with the AI vs. multiple times with live breeding's? Also that frozen semen is usually not as high of quality (less motility, shorter survivability time) as fresh semen? Does a smaller size litter end up producing larger than average pups leading to more difficulties whelping?

We haven't had excessive trouble whelping a litter, but almost all litters are born at night, so the original poster's 2 am complaint doesn't surprise me.
We tend to have smaller litters with AI, but we know of litters of 12+ via AI.
Highway Ends Kennel wrote:#3. Has anybody other than Wildweeds noticed a decline in the overall quality or desirable traits from dogs out of frozen AI breeding's compared to dogs produced from similar live breedings? Has there been very many NFC or AFC Champions produced from frozen semen breeding's?
No
Highway Ends Kennel wrote:For an owner to keep a supply of frozen semen on their stud-dog, they have to go threw the additional work and expense of having a vet collect and store the semen. The owner of a bitch also usually has more expense involved purchasing the frozen semen and having a vet do the AI breeding vs. doing a live breeding. It seems like the owners of both the male and the female would be more selective on which dogs they breed and collect for frozen AI, if nothing else because of the additional expense and limited supply of the frozen semen. Wouldn't it therefore make sense that on average, frozen semen breeding's would produce a higher percentage of top notch dogs than than live breeding's? I'm not talking about a guarantee on better pups, but on average shouldn't that be the case?

Please PM or email me any references or responses you don't feel comfortable posting.

Thanks
The litter might be smaller and the chances of conception lower, but the ability to have access to dogs that we can't physically tie with is worth every bit of it.

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Re: Imitiation breeding.... AI/surgical implant

Post by Saddle » Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:48 am

I have had the procedure done three times all at the clinic in Abilene KS. They are true experts there as they AI hundreds of greyhounds a year. My first instance was with a Brittany bitch that was 3 at the time and had never been bred. They thawed the semen and tested it. It was good. They implanted it and I got 9 healthy Brittany pups. 8 females and a male. Those pups were out of semen from FC Noble Rocket (a Bean Blaze younger brother). The male in the litter was the only dog really campaigned at all. He was FC/AFC Godfather's Rocketeer. Buzz was a nice dog. A couple of the females won a lot on NSTRA. I would call the litter a success.

I did it two years ago with a bitch that wouldn't breed naturally. Again a 3 year old that had never been bred. She had 5 females and 2 males. One of those pups has wins in the grouse woods and a couple have some NSTRA wins. It didn't produce anything I was after but it was a success. Both litters whelped natural with no hang ups at all. Big nice healthy pups in both litters as well. My third litter was a veteran brood bitch. She whelped 6 nice pups. Two of them are all age prospects with derby wins so far. My experience has been good. I also use a top of the line clinic. I think that makes a difference.

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Re: Imitiation breeding.... AI/surgical implant

Post by dan v » Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:37 am

Saddle wrote:My experience has been good. I also use a top of the line clinic. I think that makes a difference.
Annnnnnnd...there's the answer.

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Re: Imitiation breeding.... AI/surgical implant

Post by Highway Ends Kennel » Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:24 am

Thanks for the feedback KwickIrish and Saddle. Some of the other breeders I've talked have said the same thing. They like having access to more stud dogs that they normally wouldn't under a live breeding.

Anybody had experience with using older frozen semen that maybe wasn't optimal quality. Say 30% motility or less?

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Re: Imitiation breeding.... AI/surgical implant

Post by dan v » Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:37 am

Highway Ends Kennel wrote:Thanks for the feedback KwickIrish and Saddle. Some of the other breeders I've talked have said the same thing. They like having access to more stud dogs that they normally wouldn't under a live breeding.

Anybody had experience with using older frozen semen that maybe wasn't optimal quality. Say 30% motility or less?
The little bit I know is that the repro specialist will determine the amount of frozen required based on all the factors of semen quality. Then they will propose what type of implant method.

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Re: Imitiation breeding.... AI/surgical implant

Post by KwikIrish » Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:16 pm

Highway Ends Kennel wrote:
Anybody had experience with using older frozen semen that maybe wasn't optimal quality. Say 30% motility or less?
my psudo mom has seen it in "as low as 30% it's all in the timing and god..... "

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Re: Imitiation breeding.... AI/surgical implant

Post by Wildweeds » Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:26 pm

You need to have 100 million live swimmers at thawback for a viable breeding,the quality inspection has a freezing and thawback with a small sample to determine how much is lost through freezing and thaw,the math is done and the remaining sample is packaged for breedings with the premise that the quality will be the same on thawback of packaged straws or pellets.I know this for fact from the collection and freezing of a dog at 2 banks.
Wyndancer wrote:
Highway Ends Kennel wrote:Thanks for the feedback KwickIrish and Saddle. Some of the other breeders I've talked have said the same thing. They like having access to more stud dogs that they normally wouldn't under a live breeding.

Anybody had experience with using older frozen semen that maybe wasn't optimal quality. Say 30% motility or less?
The little bit I know is that the repro specialist will determine the amount of frozen required based on all the factors of semen quality. Then they will propose what type of implant method.

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Re: Imitiation breeding.... AI/surgical implant

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:14 pm

I will say this when it comes to using fresh chilled, the extender used can bs critical. I have any stud dog tested using 5 different ones and the difference is sometimes huge.

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Re: Imitiation breeding.... AI/surgical implant

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:59 pm

There is a good article on this at vetmed.OAU.edu. The article is called "Breeding Soundness".

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Re: Imitiation breeding.... AI/surgical implant

Post by dan v » Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:01 pm

Wildweeds wrote:You need to have 100 million live swimmers at thawback for a viable breeding,the quality inspection has a freezing and thawback with a small sample to determine how much is lost through freezing and thaw,the math is done and the remaining sample is packaged for breedings with the premise that the quality will be the same on thawback of packaged straws or pellets.I know this for fact from the collection and freezing of a dog at 2 banks.
Pretty much how it goes. They collect said stud, assay before freeze....add their "proprietary" extender, freeze, thaw then assay again. And as you said, they need "x" of viable sperm to make a proper breeding. Like you, I know this as I have 6 males in storage. There's way more to it than that, but that's the short story. We use Dr. Don Rice a Stillwater Vet Clinic in Stillwater MN. He's a good doc and has a pretty god track record...does progesterone inhouse.

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Re: Imitiation breeding.... AI/surgical implant

Post by SCT » Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:37 pm

With chilled fresh semen, what is the procedure from start to finish? Is there an article out there on just this topic? I have a vet within 50 miles that specializes in all of the AI stuff on dogs, but I'd rather inform myself without contacting them.

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Re: Imitiation breeding.... AI/surgical implant

Post by Hattrick » Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:43 pm

This a really good thread.

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Re: Imitiation breeding.... AI/surgical implant

Post by Saddle » Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:38 pm

One big key is to do progesterones on your bitch. Its an added cost but you can peg the bitch just right.

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Re: Imitiation breeding.... AI/surgical implant

Post by dan v » Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:38 pm

SCT wrote:With chilled fresh semen, what is the procedure from start to finish? Is there an article out there on just this topic? I have a vet within 50 miles that specializes in all of the AI stuff on dogs, but I'd rather inform myself without contacting them.

Once again there is a magic additive called an extender, and various docs use different extenders with varying results. It's better than frozen in terms of viable sperm. You still have to have pretty good idea of ovulation date. I'm not that hip to the details on whether or not you "stage" the procedure over multiple days, or you would need more than one collection.

So, you'd need some progesterone testing to get the ovulation time, you'd have to work closely with the stud owner, and the vet to get the collection. And then you have shipping via overnight to your vet for the insertion.

follow this link http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?A=1224 Dr. Hutchison is deemed to be the gold standard

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Re: Imitiation breeding.... AI/surgical implant

Post by Wildweeds » Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:40 pm

I used Vetcor K9 reproduction in Canada and the ICSB in Oregon for collection/freeze points,I haven't used any as the male is still alive and sired a litter 2 years ago at age 10 that produced 9 pups.
Wyndancer wrote:
Wildweeds wrote:You need to have 100 million live swimmers at thawback for a viable breeding,the quality inspection has a freezing and thawback with a small sample to determine how much is lost through freezing and thaw,the math is done and the remaining sample is packaged for breedings with the premise that the quality will be the same on thawback of packaged straws or pellets.I know this for fact from the collection and freezing of a dog at 2 banks.
Pretty much how it goes. They collect said stud, assay before freeze....add their "proprietary" extender, freeze, thaw then assay again. And as you said, they need "x" of viable sperm to make a proper breeding. Like you, I know this as I have 6 males in storage. There's way more to it than that, but that's the short story. We use Dr. Don Rice a Stillwater Vet Clinic in Stillwater MN. He's a good doc and has a pretty god track record...does progesterone inhouse.

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Re: Imitiation breeding.... AI/surgical implant

Post by Highway Ends Kennel » Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:59 pm

When a female is breed using thawed frozen semen it is usually done surgically or intrauterine. Either way the semen is deposited directly into the uterine horns. The sperm doesn't have to travel the normal distance it would during a live breeding. This is supposed to increase the chance of a sucessfull breeding by decreasing the distance and barriers for the sperm.

Could this also allow "abnormal" sperm or sperm of less quality to fertilize the eggs and produce lower quality pups? This would be based on the premise that because the sperm is not subject to the same process of elimination or rigors they would normally be subject to with a live breeding, you would have a higher chance of lower quality sperm fertilizing the eggs.

Has anybody seen any articles or studies on this?

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Re: Imitiation breeding.... AI/surgical implant

Post by Wildweeds » Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:23 pm

This is something I've wondered about as well

[quote="Highway Ends Kennel")

Could this also allow "abnormal" sperm or sperm of less quality to fertilize the eggs and produce lower quality pups? This would be based on the premise that because the sperm is not subject to the same process of elimination or rigors they would normally be subject to with a live breeding, you would have a higher chance of lower quality sperm fertilizing the eggs.

Has anybody seen any articles or studies on this?[/quote]

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Re: Imitiation breeding.... AI/surgical implant

Post by KwikIrish » Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:34 pm

I would venture to create a hypophysis stating that the freeze and thaw process would be one step in minimizing less healthy sperm. Just a thought!

And ICSB does great work.

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Re: Imitiation breeding.... AI/surgical implant

Post by dan v » Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:11 am

Wildweeds wrote:This is something I've wondered about as well

[quote="Highway Ends Kennel")

Could this also allow "abnormal" sperm or sperm of less quality to fertilize the eggs and produce lower quality pups? This would be based on the premise that because the sperm is not subject to the same process of elimination or rigors they would normally be subject to with a live breeding, you would have a higher chance of lower quality sperm fertilizing the eggs.

Has anybody seen any articles or studies on this?
[/quote]

The question you're really asking is...do the abnormal sperm have a gene mutation? Because it's my understanding that the DNA contained is the same from swimmer to swimmer.

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