What's Your Best Method to Teach Steady to Wing and Shot

Post Reply
User avatar
will-kelly
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 109
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:28 pm
Location: Philadelphia Suburbs

What's Your Best Method to Teach Steady to Wing and Shot

Post by will-kelly » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:50 pm

I wanted to see what everyone else is doing to reinforce this valuable step in training.

My 18 month old Vizsla had a creeping problem that I have been working on. The problem wasn't the dog it was me.

Recently she has been moving/running to see where the bird will fall or if the gunner is in between and she can't see the bird then she moves to the side. I can whoa her after the movement and even bring her back to heal before I send her for the retrieve.

Brad Higgins most recent video made me realize what she is actually doing. The problem is I want to get her JH this summer and maybe run her in a few local trials.

The JH shouldn't be a problem but I don't think we'll get anywhere in the trial world with this behavior.

I should note that I primarily used George Hickox's launcher chase drills in her earlier training.

Anyone had this challenge recently? Would love advice on what specific method was used to over come it.

Ms. Cage
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 705
Joined: Wed May 09, 2012 5:01 pm
Location: Hibbing, Mn. 55746

Re: What's Your Best Method to Teach Steady to Wing and Shot

Post by Ms. Cage » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:59 pm

Maybe stop to flush drills might help. Singles then multiples. This is the first step we use in steady to wing and shot.

User avatar
deseeker
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1186
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:38 pm
Location: Blair, Nebraska

Re: What's Your Best Method to Teach Steady to Wing and Shot

Post by deseeker » Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:57 pm

If you're shooting birds---do not let her retreive anything she leaves on. If she stands thru it, release her to retreive---if she doesn't, don't let her have the bird.
That's along with the stop to flush stuff in the preceding post.

User avatar
RoostersMom
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1754
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:42 pm
Location: North Central Missouri

Re: What's Your Best Method to Teach Steady to Wing and Shot

Post by RoostersMom » Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:03 pm

I had the same problem with my V. He would shift around me or the gunner to see the fall. He would also creep a bit when he'd waited a while for me to produce a bird in front of him. I just used the Perfection method to steady him up - lots of flushes and lots of corrections. Whoa means whoa and when I started reinforcing that each and every time, then he got rock solid. Finished his MH in a short time after that.

User avatar
Sharon
GDF Junkie
Posts: 9114
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 4:46 pm
Location: Ontario,Canada

Re: What's Your Best Method to Teach Steady to Wing and Shot

Post by Sharon » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:38 pm

He hasn't learned that he doesn't move until sent. You don't mention a check cord nor an e collar. Other than walking him back to his place , what are you doing to correct him?
Last edited by Sharon on Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
AZ Brittany Guy
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1417
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:00 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: What's Your Best Method to Teach Steady to Wing and Shot

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:57 pm

In field trials that I have attended most judges will allow a dog to take a step or pivot to "mark" a downed bird. In my opinion thats just good bird work. If you are blocking him from viewing the downed bird, and he takes a step or two to see where the bird landed then some people would say that is "handler error". Most judges don't like to see handlers "blocking" to keep a dog steady.

If he is creeping or taking multiple steps then all of the recommendations you were given makes sence.

Neil
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:46 pm
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: What's Your Best Method to Teach Steady to Wing and Shot

Post by Neil » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:32 pm

Whoa barrel, Buddy Stick, e-collar. He nust learn whoa means whoa, without a loss of style before the flush. And after the flush he cannot advance in the direction of the bird. Done properly, there is no need for verbal correction.

User avatar
Duckdon
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 9:21 am
Location: Chugiak, Alaska

Re: What's Your Best Method to Teach Steady to Wing and Shot

Post by Duckdon » Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:36 pm

3 words "Perfection Kennels DVDs" Just my opinion. Don

User avatar
Gordon Guy
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 632
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:07 pm
Location: Boise Idaho

Re: What's Your Best Method to Teach Steady to Wing and Shot

Post by Gordon Guy » Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:44 pm

$500 a month to the trainer until the job is done :)

User avatar
campgsp
Rank: 3X Champion
Posts: 534
Joined: Wed May 09, 2012 11:05 am
Location: illinois

Re: What's Your Best Method to Teach Steady to Wing and Shot

Post by campgsp » Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:59 pm

doesn't sound like the dog has a problem. More handler/gunner issue. Dogs aren't docked points for taking a few steps to see around an object to see shot bird land.

Try staying out of the way of dogs view of bird. You'll probably see a big difference .

Neil
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:46 pm
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: What's Your Best Method to Teach Steady to Wing and Shot

Post by Neil » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:03 pm

campgsp wrote:doesn't sound like the dog has a problem. More handler/gunner issue. Dogs aren't docked points for taking a few steps to see around an object to see shot bird land.

Try staying out of the way of dogs view of bird. You'll probably see a big difference .
Depends on the judge. The rules are clear, some judge's interpretation is not. I had a dog flat win an hour classic, moved his head and one front leg when the bird flushed over his head, rear feet did not move. They left him down for four more clean finds and one back, they didn't pick him up, but didn't use him, not even for 3rd.

He had been hunted a ton, he was marking the bird for a retrieve, just like he was supposed to.

I don't train for bad judging, just sharing what can happen.

User avatar
Sharon
GDF Junkie
Posts: 9114
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 4:46 pm
Location: Ontario,Canada

Re: What's Your Best Method to Teach Steady to Wing and Shot

Post by Sharon » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:16 pm

Exactly. Depends on the Judge. Same happened to me.

Allin13
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 133
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:24 pm
Location: Illinois

Re: What's Your Best Method to Teach Steady to Wing and Shot

Post by Allin13 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:36 pm

will-kelly will your dog stay on whoa when playing fetch?

User avatar
will-kelly
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 109
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:28 pm
Location: Philadelphia Suburbs

Re: What's Your Best Method to Teach Steady to Wing and Shot

Post by will-kelly » Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:10 am

Thanks for all of the advice. Lots of good information.

To answer some of the questions:

She is whoa broke. With her creeping issue I had gotten to verbal with her as she went on point. In an effort to keep her from breaking or creeping early in the season I began to "speak" over her point. It actually got her excited and she would move, creep or bust the birds.

I spoke with one of the industry pros via email, after reading an article he had written in Gundog magazine. Based upon my account of what was going on his assessment was...shut up! It sounds like you're causing the problem. He was 100% right in his assessment. After learning to keep quiet the dog went back to her staunch pointing and hasn't crept since. Now if I can only remember to keep my mouth shut.

To add to this he said "most people's biggest mistake is Whoa-ing a dog into a point. It's not natural and should never be done. Whoa on the flush, whoa on the shot but never whoa in to or on the point."

Check cord, e-collars & launchers are some of the tools I use regularly.

Thanks for the advice.

Neil
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:46 pm
Location: Central Arkansas

Re: What's Your Best Method to Teach Steady to Wing and Shot

Post by Neil » Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:14 pm

I do not beleve the dog is truly whoa broke, it means don't move at all until released. If you have a problem with the word "whoa", use a non-verbal cue or another sound. Some use a "pissssst" sound, bobwhite whistle, a finger snap, or the palm of the hand at hip level. You can use "ketchup", dogs only know the cue after it is taught.

So, use the whoa barrel, Buddy Stick, e-collar until the dog is whoa broke.

User avatar
AZ Brittany Guy
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1417
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:00 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: What's Your Best Method to Teach Steady to Wing and Shot

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:06 am

Neil wrote:
campgsp wrote:doesn't sound like the dog has a problem. More handler/gunner issue. Dogs aren't docked points for taking a few steps to see around an object to see shot bird land.

Try staying out of the way of dogs view of bird. You'll probably see a big difference .
Depends on the judge. The rules are clear, some judge's interpretation is not. I had a dog flat win an hour classic, moved his head and one front leg when the bird flushed over his head, rear feet did not move. They left him down for four more clean finds and one back, they didn't pick him up, but didn't use him, not even for 3rd.

He had been hunted a ton, he was marking the bird for a retrieve, just like he was supposed to.

I don't train for bad judging, just sharing what can happen.
Do you think this stems from more and more judges that don't hunt? I have had it happen to me too.

I think way too much emphisas is put on the "head high & tail streight up" and not enough on hunting savy. Some of the pointing styles out their look too manufactured. I bet this gets a little feedback :mrgreen:

User avatar
Stoneface
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1050
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:33 pm
Location: Terrell/Quinlan, Texas

Re: What's Your Best Method to Teach Steady to Wing and Shot

Post by Stoneface » Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:03 pm

I trained my first dog with Delmar Smith's method. That's the way I've done it for most the time I've been in dogs, but I've been transitioning. This is where I'm headed. I'll make it general to to keep it from turning into a novel.

1. Get the dog into PLENTY of free birds. Let him bump, chase, have a ball. Let him learn he can't catch.
2. Teach him to Whoa and hold his Whoa even if heaven is tumbling down around him.
3. Take the dog off of birds.
4. Whoa dog and make him stand while you throw pigeons from bag.
5. Repeat 4, except fire a blank pistol. Repeat until he holds religiously.
6. Repeat 5, except drop bird. Repeat until he holds religiously.
7. Repeat 6, let dog have bird if he holds.
8. Repeat steps 4 - 7, except Whoa the dog upwind from launchers and planted birds, so he can't smell them.
9. Repeat step 8, except work dog into scent and let him stop on his own.

That's it in a nutshell.

Thornapple
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 115
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:56 am
Location: Maryland

Re: What's Your Best Method to Teach Steady to Wing and Shot

Post by Thornapple » Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:41 am

Will-Kelly,
I do not know if you played sports in school, but for those that have there are the basic fundamentals that all of us lived by. I mention this because from Pop Warner football to Little League, to high school or college our coaches taught us to “Watch the Ball,” or the fundamentals of “Blocking and tackling”. How is this germane to your question? Because these most basic of skills are the ones that win or loose Super Bowls, World Series, or are given credit or not for a “Steady Point” in the field. Now to your dog and your question.
You mention your dog has been trained to “Whoa”. If you read carefully the replies on this stream of comments you will notice this is the one constant the more experienced dog handlers here are giving you; train to “Whoa”. They did it for a reason, they did it because they know, all of us have experienced what you are; let me share with you why.
As Hickox, Higgins, Ronnie Smith or any of the top trainers will advise you there are two commands you absolutely must have demonstrated absolute proficiency in before moving forward: “Come” and “Whoa”. Let me stop here. When I mean proficient I mean absolutely competent in any and all conditions! I mention this because I will take the majority of handlers in this forum and they will show you why your dog is not properly conditioned to Whoa as you may think! All of them can do it! Most of these men and women here will put your dog on a check cord have you Whoa and then have you walk out of sight, and maybe for ten or so minutes! How long do you think it will remain in one spot? Or, they will have it on “Whoa” and have a live bird with a string attached to its leg walk in front of your dog. I did this with mine who had the same problem creeping as your and finally was able to photograph a tethered quail walking between its legs, in front, on its head, out in front, flying in front, etc. Then the same with a chucker! When the dog moves of course you pick it up and sit it down (not slam it!) and do it again and again and again. Your dog will remain steady in the field once you do this.
Creeping, crawling, repositioning on its own are points against a dog in AKC senior and master and in Utility. If you read the AKC rules or NAVHDA green book they state that the dog is not allowed to reposition itself.
To my point, most inquiries to this forum ask the same questions over and over again. In fact I believe there are currently four to five asking the same question in various places that deal with “Whoa”. You will notice that the folks answering here are very knowledgeable and know what they are talking about. Experienced handlers: Neil, Allin13, and Campgsp all point to this, read again what they said! And just as import read what Stoneface wrote about birds and his very wise advice again; birds, birds, and more birds. Most importantly let your puppy have fun. Remember this is not a job, the puppy is training to be your partner, your teamate, not your employee!
Good luck in your training and enjoy that puppy of yours.
Thornapple

User avatar
mountaindogs
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2449
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:33 pm
Location: TN

Re: What's Your Best Method to Teach Steady to Wing and Shot

Post by mountaindogs » Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:34 am

Stoneface, nice concise to the "point " post. Could you elaborate on step 6 and 7? Drop bird... throw or toss or just drop and live or dead? And then 7... give bird to dog like higgins as in handing or tossing to him or as in allowing him to go get the bird like a retrieve?
Thornapple, also nice post. The sports metaphor is an interesting one. I have a young son now at the age of "I know how to already " but what he knows is the beginning. He needs to do things better, with more consistancy, under pressure, etc... and he has yet to see this. The thing with dogs AND kids is they can get bored and quit while you teach must must must....practice practice. So it is balence! To keep the desire to play high and the skill improving also. Somedays I give a little and some I take...

User avatar
Sharon
GDF Junkie
Posts: 9114
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 4:46 pm
Location: Ontario,Canada

Re: What's Your Best Method to Teach Steady to Wing and Shot

Post by Sharon » Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:39 pm

Stoneface wrote:I trained my first dog with Delmar Smith's method. That's the way I've done it for most the time I've been in dogs, but I've been transitioning. This is where I'm headed. I'll make it general to to keep it from turning into a novel.

1. Get the dog into PLENTY of free birds. Let him bump, chase, have a ball. Let him learn he can't catch.
2. Teach him to Whoa and hold his Whoa even if heaven is tumbling down around him.
3. Take the dog off of birds.
4. Whoa dog and make him stand while you throw pigeons from bag.
5. Repeat 4, except fire a blank pistol. Repeat until he holds religiously.
6. Repeat 5, except drop bird. Repeat until he holds religiously.
7. Repeat 6, let dog have bird if he holds.
8. Repeat steps 4 - 7, except Whoa the dog upwind from launchers and planted birds, so he can't smell them.
9. Repeat step 8, except work dog into scent and let him stop on his own.

That's it in a nutshell.

I don't want to be critical but i have some problems with this method. I may be misreading what you are saying.

#5.... I would never shoot a starter pistol for the first time while the dog is standing near me waiting to see the bird. Maybe you have done gun conditioning long before this step?

As I know you know, steadying to wing and steadying to shot are two separate training needs that are dealt with separately initially.

User avatar
AZ Brittany Guy
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1417
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:00 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: What's Your Best Method to Teach Steady to Wing and Shot

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:57 pm

I never shoot my pistol around a pup unless he is in full persute of a flying bird and I am standing at least 25 yards away. If he stops and looks at me I quit right there and wait several weeks before I try that again.

User avatar
Stoneface
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1050
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:33 pm
Location: Terrell/Quinlan, Texas

Re: What's Your Best Method to Teach Steady to Wing and Shot

Post by Stoneface » Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:04 pm

No, Sharon, this is just a basic overview of JUST the steadying process. I get my pups conditioned to the gun early on, way back in step number one. And, when I first use the gun while the dog's Whoaed up and I'm throwing birds, I often times have an assistant stand way off or behind a barrier and shoot in the opposite direction to muffle the sound. Slowly bring it closer until I'm firing it from the end of a check cord, but still almost always fire it behind my back.

User avatar
Stoneface
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1050
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:33 pm
Location: Terrell/Quinlan, Texas

Re: What's Your Best Method to Teach Steady to Wing and Shot

Post by Stoneface » Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:29 pm

Mountain, by "drop," I mean to kill the bird for the dog. When I'm going to let the bird go I like to use pigeons, but when I'm going to let the dog smell the bird, especially if the dog is going to get the bird in his mouth, I like to use quail. The dogs just get more excited over quail and since they'll never encounter pigeons in a wild/trial situation, it's a good idea to make the "official" stuff happen with quail. I will say if I drop the bird for the dog and he breaks point, I do NOT let him go get the bird. After you've put the dog up, go back and get the bird to freeze for fetch training down the road (frozen birds are good to do fetch training with to help detour hard mouth). Also, if have a pup that you needs to get a little more excited, don't hesitate to drop a bird for him earlier in training and let him get it in his mouth. On the same note, don't drop a bird for the dog every time you go out or every time you flush the bird when you get to that stage. You want it to be a real treat for the dog to get the bird in his mouth. If you do it too often, it's not as special for him.

One final thing to consider. If you are going to do this over the summer or if your dog is a little older, you may consider teaching him to stop to shot first, then stop to flush before you embark on steadying him up on point. Consider you're a dog and you've been taught that a shot is a "command" to keep your feet planted and not move a muscle. Now, you've started stop to flush training and as soon as you see a bird fly by your head, you're trainer bellows "Whoa," so you stop. But, it's too much pressure and that bird is flying back by and you really want to chase, but just then you hear that shot from the starter pistol that reinforces that you are not to move and your feet are to stay flat on the ground. Now, a few weeks later you understand that a flushing bird or a shot is a "command" to stand your ground. You're worked around the field when you smell "that scent." You stop, lock up. After a minute the bird flushed. You don't move a muscle because that flush is a command to stand your ground. After a minute you're contemplating giving chase when you hear the shot which reinforces that it is NOT okay to move.

Stop to shot and stop to flush can - not "will," but "can" - put power steering into your breaking process.

Post Reply