Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

[UpNorthHuntin]

The primary element of success at hunting is finding the game. So you get a dog that has shown it has an excellent aptitude for finding game. The primary element of game preservation after the shot is finding the game. You already have a dog that has shown it has an excellent aptitude for finding game. I don't understand why you think there are two elements here? There is no disparity.

The disparity is throughout this entire post. The argument that a trial dog is or isn't better than a hunting dog, or that a hunting dog can't compete with a trail dog, blah blah blah... Why is there a difference between the two? That is the disparity I refer to. If I have a stud hunting dog that can run and hunt all day for me, then why is it that he cannot compete and win in a field trial. I am not trying to knock field trials, I am very excited about entering them, but I'm sorry, IMHO there should not be such a difference between a great hunting dog and a great field trial dog. So either everyone is full of hot air, or the level of disparity between the two is real.

[Winchey]

Again it depends on what your definition of a great hunting dog is. To me a great dog will be a great hunting dog and will be a great trial dog if groomed to do so.

To me they are the same dogs, however the top trial dogs have gone out on public display and beaten 100's of other very good dogs. It doesen't neccesarily mean the dog is better then joe blow who says his hunting dog is the greatest ever and timmy two shoes will vouch for it. The odds favour the former though.

It also carries more weight if a big name, like George Tracy or something says his hunting dog is great and should be bread then some guy who has a brittney.

[JKP]

will be a great trial dog if groomed to do so.

These are the operative words of the whole post..and not much is shared about that here...the "grooming" process, I mean. I have seen "lots" of trial bred dogs that were no different than my Euro mutts when they weren't "groomed".

[slistoe]

I have said it many times on this and other forums. I was indoctrinated in the belief that a trial dog was useless for hunting by the mainstream outdoor media in the early 70's. When I went shopping for a dog I wanted "hunting stock". A couple of dogs later I had a dog that truly outshone all other dogs I had seen and worked or hunted with. She redefined what I and anyone who knew her thought a hunting dog could and should be. Through circumstances I found myself at a trial to see what the enemy was really about and I had an eye opener. My dog was commonplace. A great trial dog has all the potential of a great hunting dog.
All this hoopla about retrieving is smoke and mirrors.

Winchey has it covered.

[slistoe]

It also carries more weight if a big name, like George Tracy or something says his hunting dog is great and should be bread then some guy who has a brittney.

Hey now!

[slistoe]

Oops, this was a retrieving thread, wasn't it.
Back on topic

[UpNorthHuntin]

It also carries more weight if a big name, like George Tracy or something says his hunting dog is great and should be bread then some guy who has a brittney.

Since I do not know George Tracy personnaly I will take your word for it. I never once have stated that my dog is a great anything..... I agree that a breeder or trialer has obviously much more knowledge on the qualities of a great dog... I was using the analogy as an example. I do not, nor have I ever professed to know much about anything on this forum, nor do I expect any of you to have the slightest clue how to train a narcotic or explosive detector dog, or for that matter a dog that will trail a human for miles and miles.... not 1000 yrds. I am on here to learn. All I have ever done is hunted, so I would like to learn as much as I can about what to expect at a trial.

[slistoe]

will be a great trial dog if groomed to do so.

These are the operative words of the whole post..and not much is shared about that here...the "grooming" process, I mean. I have seen "lots" of trial bred dogs that were no different than my Euro mutts when they weren't "groomed".

I'm sure there are a lot of Euro mutts who could likely perform well in competition if their owners stuck their heads in the light once in awhile.

[ezzy333]

Sorry I disagree. Recovery of game is a big part of conservation. A dog that can track and retrieve cripples is a great asset to any hunter.

A dog that can track and find cripples is an asset to any hunter. Picking them up and returning with them so the hunter does not have to walk over there and pick them up themselves is immaterial to the recovery of game or the conservation question - obscure scenarios aside.

I agree with your explanation but why do we worry about style such as position of the tail, high or low head, or even how they cover the ground running since those are in no way connected to conservation any more than style when retrieving? We can't have it just one way because that is what we like. Either it counts or it doesn't no matter what the dog is doing or not doing.

Ezzy

[slistoe]

Sorry I disagree. Recovery of game is a big part of conservation. A dog that can track and retrieve cripples is a great asset to any hunter.

A dog that can track and find cripples is an asset to any hunter. Picking them up and returning with them so the hunter does not have to walk over there and pick them up themselves is immaterial to the recovery of game or the conservation question - obscure scenarios aside.

I agree with your explanation but why do we worry about style such as position of the tail, high or low head, or even how they cover the ground running since those are in no way connected to conservation any more than style when retrieving? We can't have it just one way because that is what we like. Either it counts or it doesn't no matter what the dog is doing or not doing.

Ezzy

99% of the time you are out hunting with your dog you are watching the dog cover ground. In the 1% of the time that the dog is standing birds you spend 99% of that time looking at the dog. Of course, in a typical 10 hour hunt I will spend about 10 seconds swinging, aiming and firing my gun and 5 minutes recovering shot game.

[UpNorthHuntin]

99% of the time you are out hunting with your dog you are watching the dog cover ground. In the 1% of the time that the dog is standing birds you spend 99% of that time looking at the dog. Of course, in a typical 10 hour hunt I will spend about 10 seconds swinging, aiming and firing my gun and 5 minutes recovering shot game.

99% of the time hunting in MIchigan you never even see the dog. In a true hunting situation I could care less where his head or tail is. I just want to walk over the next hill in the direction the Garmin tells me and see him rock solid pointing a bird.

[slistoe]

If you got one of those thermal imaging devices you wouldn't need to feed it at the end of the day.

[Winchey]

That is fine. I hunt in the thickest crap imagineable as well, but when I do see my dog I enjoy it a lot more when he is flying and his tail is cracking. I also find it more enjoyable finding my dog looking like a million bucks, high head and tail or contorted around then I do when one of them is rock solid however looking like he is taking a dump, or has his tail bent over sideways. Although I agree it is not terribly important and veing a good bird dog is paramount, you can have an exceptional bird dog that has exceptional style so I would prefer to have both. I also find the bell gives you a mental picture of the particular dog as well, kind of hard to explain.

[Saddle]

99% of the time hunting in MIchigan you never even see the dog. In a true hunting situation I could care less where his head or tail is. I just want to walk over the next hill in the direction the Garmin tells me and see him rock solid pointing a bird.

This to me is the primary difference between a birddog man a mere bird killer. Bird killers have one goal in mind and that's to kill a bag full of birds no matter what. Birddog men expect a little more out of there dogs.

To answer your other question being a good hunting dogs only part of being a good field trial dog. There are tremendous differences between a legit field trial dog and a meat dog. I get tired of explaining this to people who don't field trial if you feel like your dog can compete then take him and go compete if you're not going to do that tben please don't come here and talk about how you feel like your dog can compete. I personally don't want to hear it and neither does anyone else who field trials.

[Winchey]

Saddle, I am going to go out on a limb, but wouldn't you say that pretty well all those dogs in Grand Junction right now have littermates who are someones jam up brag hunting dog, and have probably near the potential of their brothers running in the national.

[UpNorthHuntin]

99% of the time hunting in MIchigan you never even see the dog. In a true hunting situation I could care less where his head or tail is. I just want to walk over the next hill in the direction the Garmin tells me and see him rock solid pointing a bird.

This to me is the primary difference between a birddog man a mere bird killer. Bird killers have one goal in mind and that's to kill a bag full of birds no matter what. Birddog men expect a little more out of there dogs.

To answer your other question being a good hunting dogs only part of being a good field trial dog. There are tremendous differences between a legit field trial dog and a meat dog. I get tired of explaining this to people who don't field trial if you feel like your dog can compete then take him and go compete if you're not going to do that and please don't come here and talk about how you feel like your dog can compete. I personally don't want to hear it and neither does anyone else who field trials.

I'm not saying that at all. The mass majority of my posts are trying to understand the differences between an all day hunting trip with my dog, and the art of field trialing. I am very excited about the upcoming field trials. I have said this numerous times. Not sure if my dog will be able to compete at all, but I want to know as much as I can until the time comes that I do find out for myself. The main point of this thread was that retrieving is...or is not an extremely important part of hunting vs field trials. My point is, if style is so important, why does it have more relevancy than retrieving game? I have yet to see any training method of any professional handler that does not emphasize steady to wing and shot, followed up by a terrific retrieve to hand. Until yesterday I didn't even realize that in an AFC/FC title, there is no requirement to retrieve a downed bird. Not trying to insult anyone on here, although I've been on the receiving end os enough of them. And where in any of my posts have I said anything about killing birds? I very seldom kill any of them. In this state if I did I would have about one good season of hunting.

[UpNorthHuntin]

That is fine. I hunt in the thickest crap imagineable as well, but when I do see my dog I enjoy it a lot more when he is flying and his tail is cracking. I also find it more enjoyable finding my dog looking like a million bucks, high head and tail or contorted around then I do when one of them is rock solid however looking like he is taking a dump, or has his tail bent over sideways. Although I agree it is not terribly important and veing a good bird dog is paramount, you can have an exceptional bird dog that has exceptional style so I would prefer to have both. I also find the bell gives you a mental picture of the particular dog as well, kind of hard to explain.

I agree and I am not knocking style. I think it is important as well, but I don't think it is any more important than a good retrieve after the shot. I just didn't realize that there was no requirement to retrieve in Field Trials. And I don't understand how that can be viewed as not important in hunting???

[UpNorthHuntin]

If you got one of those thermal imaging devices you wouldn't need to feed it at the end of the day.

I have one, but it was primarily used to fight the Taliban and AlQaeda for the last ten years, which is where I was wishing I was at home on a forum talking about training dogs. Thanks for the suggestion though. I'll take it under consideration...

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

And some of us can't get an FC/AFC without retrieving so it's an important aspect of my training.

[Winchey]

I can't really add to that. I think you have already gotten good explanations. I have never had much trouble finding down grouse and woodcock myself. One of my dogs retrieves them, the other one would too if I cared to train him for it, although probably not as well. It is important to me for duck hunting, not so much for upland.

You know there are all kinds of coverdog trials 3 hours away from you in Gladwin that approximates your hunting. The Grand National Grouse will be there again in less than 2 years. If retrieving is important to you there is nothing stopping you from trialing a dog that retrieves so long as you can keep him broke.

If it is that important to you go put a Navhda or HRC title on him as well, probably more proof of retrieving ability than an AKC retrieving stake anyways.

[JKP]

so long as you can keep him broke

What does this mean? that by retrieving you rick that an FT dog will break??

[UpNorthHuntin]

You know there are all kinds of coverdog trials 3 hours away from you in Gladwin that approximates your hunting. The Grand National Grouse will be there again in less than 2 years. If retrieving is important to you there is nothing stopping you from trialing a dog that retrieves so long as you can keep him broke.

If it is that important to you go put a Navhda or HRC title on him as well, probably more proof of retrieving ability than an AKC retrieving stake anyways.

I might try that. I have been reading everything from NSTRA to NAVHDA, to AKC Trials, and Cover Dog. Not sure what I will try yet. It might take me a while to figure out what fits me the best. But coming up in March/April/May I have an opportunity to hunt in the MBC trials, so I am simply trying to gain as much as I can before giving it a shot. I don't mean to attempt to insult anyone on this forum..... But I'll be darned if I will let somebody else do it to me. So if I come across the wrong way, I apologize....

[Ms. Cage]

I have been reading everything from NSTRA to NAVHDA, to AKC Trials, and Cover Dog. Not sure what I will try yet.

If you are a mixed bag hunter , upland and waterfowl you'll enjoy NAVHDA.

[RayGubernat]

The primary element of success at hunting is finding the game. So you get a dog that has shown it has an excellent aptitude for finding game. The primary element of game preservation after the shot is finding the game. You already have a dog that has shown it has an excellent aptitude for finding game. I don't understand why you think there are two elements here? There is no disparity.

The disparity is throughout this entire post. The argument that a trial dog is or isn't better than a hunting dog, or that a hunting dog can't compete with a trail dog, blah blah blah... Why is there a difference between the two? That is the disparity I refer to. If I have a stud hunting dog that can run and hunt all day for me, then why is it that he cannot compete and win in a field trial. I am not trying to knock field trials, I am very excited about entering them, but I'm sorry, IMHO there should not be such a difference between a great hunting dog and a great field trial dog. So either everyone is full of hot air, or the level of disparity between the two is real.

Upnorth -

There are BOATLOADS of really good, really stylish, really hard hunting bird dogs that have never seen a field trial and never will. It is not that they cannot, because many of them come from the very same ancestry and lineage as currently active field trial dogs. It is much more a matter of what their owners want the dog to do for a living and how much time, effort, money and energy the owner wishes to put into their choice(s).

Now I am not saying that there are boatloads of dogs that could be Open shooting dog or all age champions, becasue there are most certainly not. Such a dog is a fairly rare commodity. There are, however, MANY dogs with the ability to be competitive in weekend trials and breed championships in AKC and in AF/AFTCA/USCSDA weekend an(to a lesser extent) amateur championship competition.

The limitations is, very often, not the dog, but rather the abilities of the owner tio either execute or pay for the required training.

Make no mistake...there is a ton of training an preparation that the dog owner must do in order to be competitive with their dog. If you do not do the work...you will go down in flames. There are folks who are not willing to put in the time. There are folks who simply do not have the time to put in. There are people who do not have the skills to train a dog to that level. When those folks compete, they really should not have expectations of winning...but we all know that most folks ain't built that way.

" / course The dog messed up"...."The other handler was too noisy and messed up my dog"... "They didn't put out enough birds/They put out too many"... "The judges had favorites"... "The scenting conditions wer bad".... "the cover was too high/there was no cover"... "the course sucked"...and so on ad nauseum.

In the fifteen years plus years I have been trialing I have heard hundreds of different excuses.

The ONLY thing I have YET to hear...FROM ANYONE...EVER... is... "I didn't do enough preparation".

I sure won't admit to it...even though it has been true.

Those that trial and who train and handle their own dogs are almost always serious bird dog fanciers. They also have a deep and abiding fascination(their spouses might use the term"obsession") with their dogs and the sport. It can indeed become addictive and consuming. Don't take my word for it,just ask my wife.

A good trial dog can also make a good hunting dog...most of the time...with the proper training. A bird dog that looks good moving and looks good when it is standing still can also make a good trial dog...most of the time...with proper training.

It is the trainer who did not adequately train or condition the dog for the task ahead of it. It is the trainer who did not thoroughly and completely bombproof the dog for the temptations it would face. It was the trainerwho failed to get through to the dog....

Successful field trialers know where the fault lies, when the dog messes up and it is with them. They take responsibilioty for the screwups and work harder to prevent them in the future. THAT is why they are successful.

RayG

[Neil]

I was with you until you got to the AKC Breed Championships. It has not been my experience that there are many dogs that can win at that level, in fact it is very few.

[RayGubernat]

I was with you until you got to the AKC Breed Championships. It has not been my experience that there are many dogs that can win at that level, in fact it is very few.

Neil -

I said "be competitive". That is not as high a benchmark as "winner". There is only one winner and at a breed championship that can indeed be a tough assignment. A fair number of the dogs entered in a Brittany national will give it a good ride, I would think. Certainly would be fun to watch, which for me, it what it is about. If I was competing, and my dog did some things that made me proud and happy and willing to go home to work some more and come back next year... well, that is kind of where I was going with that.

Being at the very top of any segment of any physcially demanding sport is probably a fairly rarified place. As competitors, it is what we aim for and judge ourselves and our performance by. But being in the mix and giving a good showing in select competition, even if you do not win... is reward enough for some and in truth, is pretty good. There are a fair number of bird dogs that can do that, I think.

RayG

RayG

[Neil]

Competitive in a championship means to me that they gave a championship performance and just got beat, and had they not they would have been named champion. I don't think there are many hunting dogss that can do that. I have only had 3.

[Stoneface]

I just don't get why we put so much training on our trial dogs to begin with. I'm kind of beating a dead horse here, so I'll leave it at that, but if a trial is to gauge a dog's ability, why judge dogs after they have so much man-made behavior? There's just too much variable.

I don't own any continental/versatile dogs and retrieving was never in my dogs' breeds job description. They find bird and they point, that's it. I plan on taking retrieving into consideration when I breed, but it's not kosher to REQUIRE it, in my opinion. Now, if they want to make it so the dogs that place or win have the option of a call back to demonstrate retrieving ability to try to turn the points to retrieving, that would be cool. But, if they don't pass the fetch test they should still get points for winning the pointing test (the trial itself).

I can get the argument about a dog being FFable lending to it's trainability, but the vast majority of the time you can get an idea of the dog's biddability and trainability in a 30 minute or 60 minute brace, whether he ever fetches or not.

[slistoe]

If you got one of those thermal imaging devices you wouldn't need to feed it at the end of the day.

I have one, but it was primarily used to fight the Taliban and AlQaeda for the last ten years, which is where I was wishing I was at home on a forum talking about training dogs. Thanks for the suggestion though. I'll take it under consideration...

The point being is that if you are to reduce the dog to simply a device to show the location of birds - especially with the aid of technology - there are cheaper and more effective means. The thermal imaging would be very effective for after the shot work as well.

[slistoe]

so long as you can keep him broke

What does this mean? that by retrieving you rick that an FT dog will break??

Have you actually trained a dog to be steady?

[slistoe]

Competitive in a championship means to me that they gave a championship performance and just got beat, and had they not they would have been named champion. I don't think there are many hunting dogss that can do that. I have only had 3.

That is 3 more than I have had, and I have had a great many exceptional hunting dogs.

[slistoe]

I just don't get why we put so much training on our trial dogs to begin with. I'm kind of beating a dead horse here, so I'll leave it at that, but if a trial is to gauge a dog's ability, why judge dogs after they have so much man-made behavior? There's just too much variable.

Because no dog comes out of the box with the requisite manners to be a broke hunting dog. A huge part of the requisite qualities that must be tested for is the ability to take and retain training without loss of function. There are myriads of Derby dogs that show boatloads of potential that no one ever hears from again in competition because they couldn't keep it together through the "training".

[Neil]

Competitive in a championship means to me that they gave a championship performance and just got beat, and had they not they would have been named champion. I don't think there are many hunting dogss that can do that. I have only had 3.

That is 3 more than I have had, and I have had a great many exceptional hunting dogs.

It is less impressive when you consider it was over 50 years and at least 50 of the best bred dogs I could find, and I was just saying they were marginally competitive.

I just don't see how Ray can say there are many. I think it about the same percentage for all breeds.

[JKP]

Have you actually trained a dog to be steady?

Yes....many...but steady to me it to when I tap the dog and send it to retrieve...not til I can get to the dog and collar it off. Firing a blank gun at a bird and a "fall" that never happens, is not a "broke" dog, which this comment

so long as you can keep him broke

seemed to indicate. I admire a great foot race and hard hunting stylish dog but the lack of emphasis on retrieving is bad for business. Finding game is the "pleasure" part....recovering it is the responsibility...or should be.

This discussion certainly has been an eye opener. Every excuse in the book why retrieving should not be required of trial dogs...and by that I mean beyond 20 yards in the cut grass. Confirms the impression I have always gotten...that trialers think run and point is enough...the rest takes care of itself...and in many cases it may but I know better. The message being sent here is that all the FDSB is interested in is run and point....its up to "you" what your dog does after the shot.

[Johng918]

I just don't get why we put so much training on our trial dogs to begin with. I'm kind of beating a dead horse here, so I'll leave it at that, but if a trial is to gauge a dog's ability, why judge dogs after they have so much man-made behavior? There's just too much variable.

I don't own any continental/versatile dogs and retrieving was never in my dogs' breeds job description. They find bird and they point, that's it. I plan on taking retrieving into consideration when I breed, but it's not kosher to REQUIRE it, in my opinion. Now, if they want to make it so the dogs that place or win have the option of a call back to demonstrate retrieving ability to try to turn the points to retrieving, that would be cool. But, if they don't pass the fetch test they should still get points for winning the pointing test (the trial itself).

I can get the argument about a dog being FFable lending to it's trainability, but the vast majority of the time you can get an idea of the dog's biddability and trainability in a 30 minute or 60 minute brace, whether he ever fetches or not.

You lost me with this post? I see a flank collar on your dog in your picture so more then likely your trying to get that dog steady to shot and maybe I'm wrong here but ain't that a man made behavior? Don't dogs naturally chase?

[fuzznut]

There are dogs who prove they retrieve over and over and over again, weekend after weekend. Those of us with the breeds the need retrieving points don't want that requirement removed, but to find a better way.

In order to get those retrieve points, ya gotta win, not just get through the callback. And the majority of dogs have to do it weekend after weekend. How many of us walk away with 3rd with a beautiful retrieve? Maybe even a better retrieve then the dog that took home the points.

Why can't we make all those retrieves count for something? Why after a dog has proven it's retrieving abilities does it have to continue to do it over and over again? And please, we are talking an event, not hunting! No one is arguing that dogs shouldn't recover game when out hunting, recovery of game is getting it in your vest, the way it gets there..... up to the guy with the dog and gun.

[RayGubernat]

Competitive in a championship means to me that they gave a championship performance and just got beat, and had they not they would have been named champion. I don't think there are many hunting dogss that can do that. I have only had 3.

I guess I am not as demanding as you may be, but I have had a couple myself who never were named champion, that I thought were pretty competitive on occasion and I have seen quite a few more of a couple of breeds that I wouldn't mind blowing a whistle over or hunting behind.

I will however give that point to you, based on your criteria. That is what you want to see in a competitive trial dog, so that is what you should see.

RayG

[JKP]

In order to get those retrieve points, ya gotta win, not just get through the callback. And the majority of dogs have to do it weekend after weekend. How many of us walk away with 3rd with a beautiful retrieve? Maybe even a better retrieve then the dog that took home the points.

I know that Fuzz...and I know there are some darn good dogs. That's really not my point. In today's world, retrieving should be a priority not an anecdotal afterthought. I sense there is real reluctance on the part of many to include some meaningful retrieving work as a requirement. We should be inviting it as responsible sportsmen/women...not making excuses.

Someone on this topic referred to a dog that would search dead as among the really good dogs....our goal should be that every dog should searches dead for as long as it takes. I have seen too many dogs (and among them some Vdogs!!) that would rather go find the next bird than search up the downed bird. Now I realize that the owner bears a lot of responsibility in such an instance. But FT, especially the big venues, is a very visible sport. Demonstrating the importance of the retrieve would be better than talking about it.

I assume slistoe will ask if I have ever had a dog retrieve

[fuzznut]

OK..... how?

[UpNorthHuntin]

If you got one of those thermal imaging devices you wouldn't need to feed it at the end of the day.

I have one, but it was primarily used to fight the Taliban and AlQaeda for the last ten years, which is where I was wishing I was at home on a forum talking about training dogs. Thanks for the suggestion though. I'll take it under consideration...

The point being is that if you are to reduce the dog to simply a device to show the location of birds - especially with the aid of technology - there are cheaper and more effective means. The thermal imaging would be very effective for after the shot work as well.

I understand that. But I am not saying that all of the elements are not important, and I believe that style is very important as well. I have been sitting here worrying about FF Training my dog for two weeks and made great progress. He is steady on retrieve and won't even think about busting until I touch him or tell him to fetch. He will retrieve it, but not to hand... He gets about three feet from me and thinks it is a game of keep-away. Once I have him he will release it on command. In all training methods this is stressed as a very important factor of training an effective bird dog (not just hunting dog), but in trial work it is not necessarily that important. If there is a reason for that, I am fine with it, I simply wanted to understand the reasoning. Not shooting bitds at trials for safety reasons, I get that... But simply stating that it is not an important element of a bird dogs performance just doesn't make sense to me. Once I get some experience in Field Trialing maybe it will? I've been training dogs since 1986, just not pointing breed bird dogs. I am also obsessed with it.... I would rather spend the required time and effort myself to train my dog than send him to somebody else to be trained... If that's 40-60 hrs a week, so be it. I just want to be certain I am training him correctly and if he is not physically able to compete, or if he simply doesn't have the natural ability that's fine as well, he may still be the very best hunting dog I've ever owned and I am okay with that. If the main difference between the "games" is format, then maybe I will find the best format for me that I get the most enjoyment out of and that lends more to what I expect out of my bird dog. I apologize if I was insulting to anyone, or seemed to be discrediting anyones accomplishments, that was not my intent.

[RayGubernat]

Have you actually trained a dog to be steady?

Yes....many...but steady to me it to when I tap the dog and send it to retrieve...not til I can get to the dog and collar it off. Firing a blank gun at a bird and a "fall" that never happens, is not a "broke" dog, which this comment

so long as you can keep him broke

seemed to indicate. I admire a great foot race and hard hunting stylish dog but the lack of emphasis on retrieving is bad for business. Finding game is the "pleasure" part....recovering it is the responsibility...or should be.

This discussion certainly has been an eye opener. Every excuse in the book why retrieving should not be required of trial dogs...and by that I mean beyond 20 yards in the cut grass. Confirms the impression I have always gotten...that trialers think run and point is enough...the rest takes care of itself...and in many cases it may but I know better. The message being sent here is that all the FDSB is interested in is run and point....its up to "you" what your dog does after the shot.

No, I don't think so... The message...that you obviously do not want to hear...is that the retrieve for FDSB dogs is something that is the job of the black dog sitting on the wagon, after the guns have shot the birds pointed by the pointers and setters and of late, in the case of the NGSPA... the GSP's that compete in that venue as well.

The AF field trial tradition is that of a stylized southern hunt. In that hunt, the job of the coursing dogs is to find, point and hold game for the mounted gunners. After the gunners have dismounted, flushed and shot, the dogs are gathered up, brought back to the front and released to find more birds. On the wagon with the driver is a Lab whose job it is to go and retrieve the shot birds after the pointing dogs have been released to hunt forward.

That is what it is. That is what it has been. That is what it will be in the FDSB world which consists of AF/AFTCA/USCSDA/NBHA/ABHA/NGSPA ...at least for the forseeable future. If that is not the type of event you choose to participate in, that is fine.

The "lack of a retrieve" in those orgainzation's stakes simply means that they choose to focus on the bird finding aspect of the task and take that to its highest level. That means (to me at least) that those orgainzations consider the perfection of "the retrieve" to be the task of the retriever trial organizations.

The organizations that wish to celebrate "the complete" hunting dog, which I believe some may term "versatile" , should do what they do as well.

For what it is worth, a dog that will hunt out 2-400 yards in front of me(on foot), find and point birds, wait for me to get to him. allow me to flush those birds and fire a blank gun if trialing, or real gun if I am hunting, and not move so much as a toenail until I walk out, pick up the shot bird and walk back to the dog and take him by the collar.... is just about as "BROKE" as I personally can ever think of needing. If I needed more, I suppose Iwould hunt with a retriever at heel.

If someone else needs something different out of their dog, that is what they should seek.

vive la diference.

RayG

[Saddle]

Saddle, I am going to go out on a limb, but wouldn't you say that pretty well all those dogs in Grand Junction right now have littermates who are someones jam up brag hunting dog, and have probably near the potential of their brothers running in the national.

Absolutely not. 1 in a 1000 dogs has what it takes to compete on that level.

[JKP]

The AF field trial tradition is that of a stylized southern hunt. In that hunt, the job of the coursing dogs is to find, point and hold game for the mounted gunners. After the gunners have dismounted, flushed and shot, the dogs are gathered up, brought back to the front and released to find more birds. On the wagon with the driver is a Lab whose job it is to go and retrieve the shot birds after the pointing dogs have been released to hunt forward.

So you all hunt with Labs at the ready?? horses pulling the cart?? finger sandwiches at noon on the veranda??? Gun bearer with the matching double standing at the ready behind you??? What century are we in?? Haven't seen anything like that during the hunting season from AZ to Saskatchewan

[UpNorthHuntin]

The AF field trial tradition is that of a stylized southern hunt. In that hunt, the job of the coursing dogs is to find, point and hold game for the mounted gunners. After the gunners have dismounted, flushed and shot, the dogs are gathered up, brought back to the front and released to find more birds. On the wagon with the driver is a Lab whose job it is to go and retrieve the shot birds after the pointing dogs have been released to hunt forward.

So you all hunt with Labs at the ready?? horses pulling the cart?? finger sandwiches at noon on the veranda??? Gun bearer with the matching double standing at the ready behind you??? What century are we in?? Haven't seen anything like that during the hunting season from AZ to Saskatchewan

Wait a minute.... Are you guys all fly fisherman too??? Just kidding...

[DGFavor]

Wait a minute.... Are you guys all fly fisherman too???

"bleep" straight! And the dog throws a pretty nice loop too...wouldn't have a dog that didn't!!

[UpNorthHuntin]

Wait a minute.... Are you guys all fly fisherman too???

"bleep" straight! And the dog throws a pretty nice loop too...wouldn't have a dog that didn't!!

Nice Brown, what river is that on? Ever fished the PM in Michigan. I have a cabin located between the Pere Marquette and Manistee river. Unbelievable trout fishing.

[DGFavor]

Nice Brown, what river is that on? Ever fished the PM in Michigan.

Some river in SE Idaho...they all look the same. It'd be fun to try some of those rivers in your country...but my truck always stutters and dies at the Idaho border!!

[slistoe]

Have you actually trained a dog to be steady?

Yes....many...but steady to me it to when I tap the dog and send it to retrieve...not til I can get to the dog and collar it off. Firing a blank gun at a bird and a "fall" that never happens, is not a "broke" dog, which this comment

so long as you can keep him broke

seemed to indicate. I admire a great foot race and hard hunting stylish dog but the lack of emphasis on retrieving is bad for business. Finding game is the "pleasure" part....recovering it is the responsibility...or should be.

Your answer

What does this mean? that by retrieving you rick that an FT dog will break??

very straightforwardly indicated that you don't understand the effect sending dogs for a retrieve has on the breaking process. So, either you actually haven't trained dogs to that level or you were being a jackass.

This discussion certainly has been an eye opener. Every excuse in the book why retrieving should not be required of trial dogs...and by that I mean beyond 20 yards in the cut grass. Confirms the impression I have always gotten...that trialers think run and point is enough...the rest takes care of itself...and in many cases it may but I know better. The message being sent here is that all the FDSB is interested in is run and point....its up to "you" what your dog does after the shot.

You mean the message you are making up here, despite what everyone is very clearly telling you.
NO ONE has said that recovery of game is unimportant.

[UpNorthHuntin]

Nice Brown, what river is that on? Ever fished the PM in Michigan.

Some river in SE Idaho...they all look the same. It'd be fun to try some of those rivers in your country...but my truck always stutters and dies at the Idaho border!!

Nice. I've fished a little in Colorado, Wyoming, but I keep coming back here. There is something pretty special about fighting a 17 lb steelhead for 40 minutes before landing them. The scenery here is nothing like out there though. Absolutely beautiful.

[Grange]

OK..... how?

We've got to show the anti-hunting crowd and other responsible sportsmen that trials promote a good sportsman ethic and good bird dogs. The only one way to prove a trial dog can retrieve and is truly steady to wing and shot and fall is
kill the bird in the trial. If we do this the anti-hunting crowd and other responsible sportsmen will be OK with trials killing wild birds whether it's hunting season or not and killing birds for competition.