Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

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Gordon Guy
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Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by Gordon Guy » Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:01 am

I'm having a difficult time understanding the move toward having retriever stakes in pointing dog trials. I've heard it said that advocates of retriever stakes state that they are encouraging the breeding of pointing dogs which exhibit a stronger desire to retrieve. I state that with the previlance of dogs that are trained to retrieve using force fetching techniques it doesn't matter whether a dog has a natural retrieve or not. The retrieve can be and is often trained into a dog that has potential, thereby voiding the argument for encouraging the breeding of pointing dogs which exhibit a strong desire to retrieve. I know this as fact - A dog with no retrieving desire can be trained to retrieve and look like a million bucks doing it.

Or is the move toward retrieving stakes a method of testing an increased trainability level of pointing dogs by increasing the amount of distraction. Because training a dog that is steady to flush and shot of a starter pistol is not the same thing as a dog that is steady through fall.

What's the real reason there's a move towards retrieving stakes?

Also, Since points in a retreiving stake are required for FC and why not only require Retrieving stakes in "Limited" event (Events limited to dogs that have previously placed in a trial) allowing more opprotunity for the new guys coming in.

When all Open or Am broke dog events are limited to retrieving stakes and the Limited event is non-retrieving there's not much room for new guys (Me) who haven't quite got their dogs steady through fall yet.

Why not make the Limited event a retrieving stake and leave the other events non-retrieving?

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Re: Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by Ruffshooter » Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:32 am

I suspect the reason is just as you stated. More and more dogs are being FF. They want to maintain or at lease have the perception of a natural retriever.. It is also easier to have a stronger retriever that has the desire to go to the end of the world and back to get that dead bird or wounded bird, that is a natural. A dog that is not a strong or natural retriever many times does not have that fire that keeps it going in difficult times. Of course this is just an opinion and my personal exerience.

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Re: Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by Saddle » Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:08 pm

This is all a moot point really because the American field will never sanction an event where live ammunition is fired to kill birds. AKC maybe American Field no way.

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Re: Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by brad27 » Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:17 pm

Why not make the Limited event a retrieving stake and leave the other events non-retrieving?
Because it would limit the chances for breeds that need retrieving points to finish their FC.

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Re: Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by phermes1 » Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:27 pm

I never understood the "a retrieve just needs FF training, so it doesn't matter" perspective. Being steady to wing and shot is also all training. If the dog's ability to be trained and to cooperate is unimportant, why bother with broke dog stakes at all.

That said, nearly every trial I've ever been to has at least 50% of the stakes as popgun only, with 99% of the retrieving stakes being callback. There's plenty of opportunity to run a dog without having to retrieve.

As far as I'm concerned, I'd rather see the retrieve made more difficult. Callbacks make it way too easy.

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Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by ACooper » Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:41 pm

I would much rather kill the first bird on course than do callbacks. But I have limited FT experience so take it for what it's worth.

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Re: Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by Cajun Casey » Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:54 pm

Retrieving callbacks are the reason I avoid AKC events.

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Re: Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by Allin13 » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:00 pm

If you do AF trials do you even train to retrieve?

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Re: Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by Karen » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:01 pm

American Field sanctions retrieving stakes every time a GSP, Vizsla or Weim trial is dualsanctioned by AKC and AF, and that happens all the time.

Not sure there's a "move" toward retrieving stakes. Whether the retrieve is necessary or not is dictated by the parent breed club. While the economy continues to suffer and there are fewer trial participants, I think in areas where trials are few and far between (the west coast comes to mind), more trials seem to be offering a retrieving stake in an effort to attract entries from those breeds requiring a win in a retrieving stake to finish their FC. I have noticed that the Brittany clubs on the west coast often include a retrieving stake, even though Brittanys never have to retrieve to finish their FC.

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Re: Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by Buckeye_V » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:05 pm

Why have a bird dog that won't go get the danged bird after I shoot it? ANy breed for that matter. The whole point of a hunting companion is to help you fill your game bag. That is part of the equation. Sorry.

I don't see why you would have a bird dog trial WITHOUT the retrieving.

I hate callbacks as much as the next guy because they are so stinking fake and the dogs know it. I think there should be more strict retrieving requirements as well. Or, have the judges use a higher standard. I've seen way to much CRAP in callbacks get credit for a win, let alone a ribbon.

You asked for opinions. :mrgreen:

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Re: Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:15 pm

Allin13 wrote:If you do AF trials do you even train to retrieve?

Actually the exact opposite, at least in my case. I DO NOT WANT my dogs to even think about a retrieve in a trial setting.

More likely, some of the continental folks are getting tired of having their clocks cleaned by cross registered pointers and setters at trials they put on. Having more retrieve requirement stakes would serve to exclude those breeds which do not require a retreive or water test to finish. If they have enough dogs to put on a trial with all retrieve requirement stakes...God bless them and they should go for it.

As far as it becoming an across the board AKC requirement I do not see the Brittany, pointers or setters breed clubs agreeing to a required retrieve format for their FC or AFC anytime soon, so that ain't happenin. As mentioned previously, you can forget retrieves in AF or AFTCA stakes. Not gonna happen.

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Re: Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by jimbo&rooster » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:41 pm

I think call backs are a joke, whether it is on course or otherwise. And if call backs are the only way to get retrieving points Id say retrieve points should be eliminated as a requirement.

Jim

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Re: Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by brad27 » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:46 pm

ACooper wrote:I would much rather kill the first bird on course than do callbacks. But I have limited FT experience so take it for what it's worth.
Same here. It is a lot harder for clubs to shoot first bird on course though. Out here about %50 of the trials are call backs, the other %50 are first bird on course.

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Re: Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by Carolina Gundogs » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:47 pm

Buckeye_V wrote:Why have a bird dog that won't go get the danged bird after I shoot it? ANy breed for that matter. The whole point of a hunting companion is to help you fill your game bag. That is part of the equation. Sorry.

I don't see why you would have a bird dog trial WITHOUT the retrieving.

I hate callbacks as much as the next guy because they are so stinking fake and the dogs know it. I think there should be more strict retrieving requirements as well. Or, have the judges use a higher standard. I've seen way to much CRAP in callbacks get credit for a win, let alone a ribbon.

You asked for opinions. :mrgreen:
+1

If field trials truly were developed to promote the "better dogs" from the hunting dog masses, the retrieve is the final part of the job. however, If the trails were developed as a game only with no intentions of promoting the dogs that demonstrate superior hunting skills, then I can understand no retrieving needed.

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Re: Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by Buckeye_V » Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:08 pm

Where I run the majority of my trials there are a fair mix of all breeds at the AKC events. Some VERY good ones in each breed. Some of them welcome retrieving stakes regardless of the breed requirement. I have seen britts, pointers, setters of various breeds all participate in retrieving stakes. Some with much more success than others.

The good continentals fear no breed from no string. You have to make it around and clean to contend. :wink:

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Re: Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:20 pm

Carolina Gundogs wrote:
If field trials truly were developed to promote the "better dogs" from the hunting dog masses, the retrieve is the final part of the job. however, If the trails were developed as a game only with no intentions of promoting the dogs that demonstrate superior hunting skills, then I can understand no retrieving needed.
\

I can't agree more.

Ezzy

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Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by ACooper » Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:37 pm

RayGubernat wrote:
More likely, some of the continental folks are getting tired of having their clocks cleaned by cross registered pointers and setters at trials they put on. Having more retrieve requirement stakes would serve to exclude those breeds which do not require a retreive.

RayG
You think so? Based on what?

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Re: Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by Gordon Guy » Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:47 pm

brad27 wrote:
Why not make the Limited event a retrieving stake and leave the other events non-retrieving?
Because it would limit the chances for breeds that need retrieving points to finish their FC.
However, As I previously stated It also limits participation..... If lack of participation/low attendance is not a problem than maybe I'm the only one with the problem...Been here before :oops:

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Re: Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by Saddle » Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:49 pm

I personally no longer believe that field trials are about finding the best hunting dog. If I wanted a dog to retrieve I would go get a lab. Having said that my dog's retrieve the hand naturally on their own. It's a nice feature of the dog but I could really care less. There are so many more things that are more important to a field trial dogs makeup then whether he retrieves or not. This is coming from a guy in me who is no longer a bird hunter. It's been a long time since I've killed a bird. I think the top notch trial dogs and top notch hunting dogs are different style of dog now. It's sad but true. I love field trialing and I love the sport but unfortunately a dog doesn't have to be a great bird dog to be a great field trial dog. Sad but true.

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Re: Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by Gordon Guy » Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:50 pm

Allin13 wrote:If you do AF trials do you even train to retrieve?
No. I was talking about AKC events.

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Re: Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by slistoe » Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:50 pm

:D I know quite a few folks who run with Pointers that started in hunting and trialing with Brits or GSP's. When I ask them why they switched the inevitable answer is "I was tired of losing." Whenever I talked with folks who were entering an "off" breed in AF wild bird trials what it took to win the inevitable answer was "We have to hope we outbird them, because we aren't going to outhunt them."

Now, before you all want to go ballistic on this, I acknowledge that there are most certainly individuals of any and all of the major breeds that are capable of holding their own in competition. I still run with Britts and never enter a competition with the expectation of losing, but when you look at the uniformity of the average of the gene pool the Pointers have the edge in almost every category. If hunters were actually worried about running the dogs that were the most effective/efficient at finding birds they would all be buying Pointers because the averages would be with them.

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Re: Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by Sharon » Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:53 pm

Saddle wrote:I personally no longer believe that field trials are about finding the best hunting dog. If I wanted a dog to retrieve I would go get a lab. Having said that my dog's retrieve the hand naturally on their own. It's a nice feature of the dog but I could really care less. There are so many more things that are more important to a field trial dogs makeup then whether he retrieves or not. This is coming from a guy in me who is no longer a bird hunter. It's been a long time since I've killed a bird. I think the top notch trial dogs and top notch hunting dogs are different style of dog now. It's sad but true. I love field trialing and I love the sport but unfortunately a dog doesn't have to be a great bird dog to be a great field trial dog. Sad but true.
Wow. Certainly doesn't support what I have see .

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Re: Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by slistoe » Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:03 pm

Well Sharon, I would agree to an extent. Because of the underlying premise of the "game", the qualities which make the very essence of a "great bird dog" have been extended beyond the norm to where we have individuals who express particular sets of characteristics far outside the norm. In order to differentiate the dogs you push the test boundaries far outside the norm as well. As a result the superlative field trial dog in operation in that environment bears little resemblance to his working cousin, the bird dog. But what the superlative field trial dog possesses is the essential characteristics necessary to develop a great bird dog with a little extra thrown in here and there - were he to be brought up/showcased in a different environment he would be his working cousin.

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Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by cmc274 » Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:09 pm

Ol big sugar has been crying the same song since time and memorial. Responding to him only encourages him to cut and paste the same posts.

I see no point in retrieving stakes as I am in the 'they are all force fetched camp'. If you want to evaluate natural retrieve, run them in an navdha na test.

A clean retrieve is a check mark, it has nothing to do with a dogs performance. Bird finding, application, heart, desire, endurance, etcare the type of intangible traits I want to see evaluated at a trial.

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Re: Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by Carolina Gundogs » Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:15 pm

cmc274 wrote:Ol big sugar has been crying the same song since time and memorial. Responding to him only encourages him to cut and paste the same posts.

I see no point in retrieving stakes as I am in the 'they are all force fetched camp'. If you want to evaluate natural retrieve, run them in an navdha na test.

A clean retrieve is a check mark, it has nothing to do with a dogs performance. Bird finding, application, heart, desire, endurance, etcare the type of intangible traits I want to see evaluated at a trial.
Why don't you tell us how you really feel?

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Re: Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by Buckeye_V » Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:27 pm

And that is why judging is subjective friends.

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Re: Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by slistoe » Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:28 pm

If you wanted me to vote on whether retrieving stakes were necessary I would have to vote no. For over 100 years the Pointers have been evaluated in traditional trials where many trainers take the time to actively discourage the initiative to retrieve in young prospects yet they have been completely ineffectual in removing the innate desire of these dogs to have a bird in their mouth or to share with their master the spoils of their efforts. If we are to learn anything from the experience of those who have gone before us, removing the retrieve component of the trial game will have no deleterious effect on the utilitarian value of the future generations of dogs to their hunter owners.

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Re: Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by LincolnAlexander » Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:32 pm

If you want to evaluate natural retrieve, run them in an navdha na test.
There is no retrieving necessary in the NAVHDA NA test. Even the water portion of the test only requires them to swim twice, not actually retrieve the bumper :).

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Re: Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by Saddle » Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:10 pm

cmc274 wrote:Ol big sugar has been crying the same song since time and memorial. Responding to him only encourages him to cut and paste the same posts.

I wouldn't call it crying so much moreso just reporting what I see and what I have been told. I'll give you a couple of examples.

I ran my bitch in an NBHA CH in 2011. I drew the first brace and she nailed it. She ran a good walking shooting dog type race with 7 well spaced broke finds. EVERY dog after her picked up early until the last two braces of the trial. In the last brace two really nice dogs ran and had two finds apiece with better races then my bitch for sure. They were CH and RU. My judge came over to me after the placements were announced and told me this, "I love your dog and she is a jam up birddog but she didn't run enough and she marked flight on her last two covey finds and I don't think a dog should do that at the championship level." I said ok and that was that. I didn't question him or solicite a comment at all. It was irrevelent at that point. Keep in mind that this is an experienced field trialer that I respect that I have seen turn loose some nice animals. I still respect him just not his point of view.

I was running a horseback shooting dog stake two years ago and my little dog had just completed her second piece of birdwork at around the 35 minute mark. My judge rides up to me and says, "take that bitch and get her out of here." I says why. He says, "I know she'll point birds and stand them so I don't need to see her find anymore and there are a ton of birds still left in this area. I need to see her roll now." I said ok and took the bitch out of there and cut her loose in the open where I knew there were no birds. Again another respected field trialer that I am friends with.

At a walking shooting dog weekend trial my dog and my bracemate had both exchanged good finds early in the brace say around the 6-7 minute mark. The other handler walks over to me as we are walking along and says, "we need to finish strong and avoid birdy areas on the course from here on out and we got it in the bag." My dog had three more finds in the brace and he had none. His dog ran all over the place for the rest of the brace like a loose mule. He was second. I was not in the mix.

I have ran with and talked to several all age guys that win and when we get to talkin dogs I always ask them "how good a birddog is he?' Most every single one answers the same way. "He's good enough to win."

I am the first person out there who thinks it should be about how good of a birddog you have first and foremost. If you had to retrieve around here in a shooting dog stakes 65% of the dogs would instantly not be running until they came back force broke. Mine could run tomorrow in a retrieving stake.

I don't look at it as crying or complaining about field trialing but more understanding that if you want to play then you have to play by the rules that are at hand. You either like it and play or you don't and don't. That's all.

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Re: Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by Gordon Guy » Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:47 pm

You either like it and play or you don't and don't.
That, right there, is the answer I thought I'd receive.

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Re: Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:37 pm

ACooper wrote:
RayGubernat wrote:
More likely, some of the continental folks are getting tired of having their clocks cleaned by cross registered pointers and setters at trials they put on. Having more retrieve requirement stakes would serve to exclude those breeds which do not require a retreive.

RayG
You think so? Based on what?
If I was a member of a continental club and went to all the trouble and expense of putting on an event, I would want to see dogs of my breed in the winners circle. Putting on an AKC tiral is three times more complicated and waaaaay more expensive thasn a similar AF weekend trial. If you put on an event and the top two dogs in every adult stake are a setter or a pointer, I would start to wonder just why I was busting my buns.

I will not get into this in depth, but the show component of some AKC clubs is sometimes not as supportive of the field side and they might question the reasoning for holding these trials and spending the club's money. When cross registered pointers and setters take placements, that get harder and harder to defend and justify.

It is only natural and it is a completely understandable reaction. Like I said, I would get kinda tired of it myself.

I have been one of those PIA AF types who cross registered their pointers so they could run in AKC events. It has never been said out loud, but there have been folks(happily in the distinct minority) who were not real happy I was there. I have to say that the vast majority of the trialers I compete with are perfectly happy to put their dog down with one of mine. I feel the same way. I do try to do what I can to help out, just to be fair about it. I think most would do the same.

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Re: Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by Redneck » Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:37 pm

ACooper wrote:I would much rather kill the first bird on course than do callbacks. But I have limited FT experience so take it for what it's worth.
It would reflect the hunting situation alot more. We used to perform all retrieves on course - there was no bird field. It seemed to change about the time society became sue happy. At about the same time every add in the field started adding disclaimers. I guess it is deemed safer to have all the shooting take place in a limited area with designated gunners. It does detract from the authenticity of the work.

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Re: Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by Redneck » Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:06 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Carolina Gundogs wrote:
If field trials truly were developed to promote the "better dogs" from the hunting dog masses, the retrieve is the final part of the job. however, If the trails were developed as a game only with no intentions of promoting the dogs that demonstrate superior hunting skills, then I can understand no retrieving needed.
\

I can't agree more.

Ezzy
The "hunt" is about finding the game, the retrieve is about recovering the game. Any poodle can retrieve. While I agree that a complete hunting dog will retrieve, it is only a small part of the total picture and is not the definition of "superior hunting skills." It's senseless to argue the field trial dog vs hunting dog because if the owner is happy with his dog that is all that really matters. The difference between the two is that any field trial winner can be hunted, but most average hunting dogs cant win a field trial.

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Re: Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by Redneck » Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:11 pm

Saddle wrote: I love field trialing and I love the sport but unfortunately a dog doesn't have to be a great bird dog to be a great field trial dog. Sad but true.
I would say that a dog doesnt have to be a great bird dog to win a trial, but to be a great trial dog he'll have to be a great bird dog.

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Re: Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:25 pm

I have only judged a handful of retrieving stakes, and never competed in one, so take this for what it is worth....

Callbacks to retrieve, at least the ones I have seen are artificial. They are also inherently unfair to some of the callback dogs, depending on when the dog was run.

I saw one trial where they shot, or attempted to shoot, the first bird on course. That was better but it didn't always work out, which meant the gunners had to saddle up and follow the field trial party until the next find. Better but unwieldy. Also, it would have been very difficult to accomplish on anything but private grounds because the gunners were on a 4 wheeler. I cannot imagine the logistics of doing it with mounted gunners.

I officiated at one trial where the course ended in a birdfield and every dog that was clean up 'till then got an opportunity to retrieve. That was also better, but it was quite expensive since they used chuckars to shoot and it also made the trial much longer.

If a retrieve is required for the FC or AFC dor a particular breed,I think it is a much better idea to set up a retrieving test as a separate entity. This way, it can be done efficiently, it can be set up much more realistically and be done much more safely(no mounted gallery to shoot around). In the long run it would save clubs a ton of money and time I think.

Just my observations from a limited perspective.

RayG

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Re: Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by TChism » Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:06 pm

Ezzy[/quote]
The "hunt" is about finding the game, the retrieve is about recovering the game. Any poodle can retrieve. While I agree that a complete hunting dog will retrieve, it is only a small part of the total picture and is not the definition of "superior hunting skills." It's senseless to argue the field trial dog vs hunting dog because if the owner is happy with his dog that is all that really matters. The difference between the two is that any field trial winner can be hunted, but most average hunting dogs cant win a field trial.[/quote]


I agree with this!

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Re: Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by Doc E » Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:14 pm

A complete hunting dog will :
1. Find them
2. Point them (or flush them)
3. Be steady to wing/shot/fall
4. Retrieve to hand (even if the fall is across a creek or small river)

Simple as that.



.
Last edited by Doc E on Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by JKP » Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:22 pm

There are so many more things that are more important to a field trial dogs makeup then whether he retrieves or not.
I am ambivalent about trials. But, retrieving is a MUST. Anyone who goes afield with a dog that will not reliably search up and bring back dead/wounded game is not hunting...they're just out killing. Guns and hunting are under intense pressure from many groups in this country and it will only get worse. By leaving dead game on the ground, glorifying games where retrieving is NOT important, marching afield with dogs that are less interested in retrieving....we just give them ammunition to shoot back at us.

Sorry, but I don't think any game should be shot without having a trained, reliable retrieving dog at the ready. I'm also sick and tired of finding deer in the spring that some slob shot or stuck with an arrow and didn't find. A trained dog could be used there too.

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Re: Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by Hattrick » Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:40 pm

This kills me these are birddogs, birddogs should retrieve why are so many people afraid of this? I keep hearing not all hunting dogs can trail but all trail dogs can hunt right? Well if they hunt i hope they can retrieve. Pointing is only half the work.Retrieving does show desire and raw power. When you see a strong powerfull clean retrieve you remember it. You can force them yes but you cant force the really powerfull stylish retrieves. And yes style on a retrieve, if he has it on point he should have it on a retrieve. I think all field titles should include retrieving on every shot bird. It would clean up alot of sloppy dog work. Just 2 cent.

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Re: Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by JKP » Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:51 pm

It's senseless to argue the field trial dog vs hunting dog because if the owner is happy with his dog that is all that really matters.
Don't agree. As sportsman, we have the privilege to go hunting...but we have the responsibility to take home what we shoot. Personally, I am tired of hunting in ND and having my dogs bring me cold birds someone left behind...happens every year...or seeing wounded ducks out on the ice shelf because dogs couldn't search them up. Wait til the antis get hold of the fact that hunters are afield with dogs that could care less about finding cripples.

Now I'm betting most dogs will retrieve or at the least indicate dead. But, if we want to defend the rights we enjoy, we need to show we are making the effort to recover game...and having a trained dog is a major part of that.

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Re: Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by dan v » Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:55 pm

Plenty of breed bias here. Some of you have versatile breeds, retrieving is the norm and expected. Other breeds were never expected to be retrieving breed. Could they be FF? Surely.

The op's question? It's simply the local club making accommodations for the continental breeds, which are the bulk of their entries. It's really that simple.

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Re: Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by ACooper » Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:01 pm

For those that think retrieveing at a trial should be required, I ask you this how many call backs have you seen? I would argue that if you have seen a couple of call backs you would not consider it all that important.

Does it cause some dogs problems? Sure. Does it prove the worth of a bird dog? I am not convinced.

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Re: Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by brad27 » Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:03 pm

The op's question? It's simply the local club making accommodations for the continental breeds, which are the bulk of their entries. It's really that simple.
Local setter club?

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Re: Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by tn red » Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:08 pm

JKP wrote:
It's senseless to argue the field trial dog vs hunting dog because if the owner is happy with his dog that is all that really matters.
Don't agree. As sportsman, we have the privilege to go hunting...but we have the responsibility to take home what we shoot. Personally, I am tired of hunting in ND and having my dogs bring me cold birds someone left behind...happens every year...or seeing wounded ducks out on the ice shelf because dogs couldn't search them up. Wait til the antis get hold of the fact that hunters are afield with dogs that could care less about finding cripples.

Now I'm betting most dogs will retrieve or at the least indicate dead. But, if we want to defend the rights we enjoy, we need to show we are making the effort to recover game...and having a trained dog is a major part of that.
Wait till they see a retreving stake or a dog ff'ed.HSUS already have NSTRA in their sights.

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Re: Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:16 pm

I have been in many call backs and it doesn't bother me at all. My dogs retrieve naturally and most of the time there are more people present to witness dogs that perform the retrieve. To me, it's better than non-retrieving stakes because my dogs like to retrieve and get bored when we run several non-retrieving trials. That's just me though.

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Re: Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by Hattrick » Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:48 pm

Ive seen a few call backs they were vary vary sloppy. A few dogs wouldnt even pick the bird up. I tell you this if a dog dont pick up a shot bird i anit breeding to it.

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Re: Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by orbirdhunter » Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:49 pm

Being a versatile guy at heart I was about ready to go on a big rant.....Then I read Rays post and i actually,completely agree with him on this point....

It makes perfect sense to have a seperate "trial" for retrieving. If your breed requires retrieving points then you have to complete a retriever trial or whatever...I kinda like that idea...
I will also say that I can understand some people not caring about retrieving...but if your running a versatile breed...shorthair,wirehair,viszla,weim, etc....then you should be retrieving...or have we gone that far off the the breeds original map....
Having said that and having watched and gunned in many callbacks....callbacks are a joke from a retrieving standpoint. It should really be automatic, dogs should be embarrased if they cant complete the retrieve...

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Hattrick
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Re: Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by Hattrick » Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:58 pm

I would say i agree with that.

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Brazosvalleyvizslas
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Re: Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:09 pm

Which of the "pointing" breeds is not also a "versatile" breed.?

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Re: Retrieving Stakes in Pointing Dog Trials

Post by Redneck » Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:11 pm

[quote="Hattrick"]This kills me these are birddogs, birddogs should retrieve why are so many people afraid of this? I keep hearing not all hunting dogs can trail but all trail dogs can hunt right? Well if they hunt i hope they can retrieve. Pointing is only half the work.Retrieving does show desire and raw power. When you see a strong powerfull clean retrieve you remember it. You can force them yes but you cant force the really powerfull stylish retrieves. And yes style on a retrieve, if he has it on point he should have it on a retrieve. I think all field titles should include retrieving on every shot bird. It would clean up alot of sloppy dog work. Just 2 cent.[/quote

While I agree that a great retrieve is impressive, if the dog dont find game theres nothing to retrieve. Sloppy dog work to me is breaking on point, knocking birds, chasing birds etc, to the average dog owner these things dont matter - its all in your frame of reference. By the way, and this will probably horrify you, at most field trials birds are not shot. Field trials are not hunting.

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