Westminster Sporting Group

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:04 pm

Not sure if any of you watched the show, but I tuned in for the Sporting Group. I was expecting dogs to look nothing like their working cousins, and for the most part I was right. The pointer looked very houndish in the face to me, all the spaniels were just ridiculous (could be the hair, IDK), the labs/chessies were overweight and had stocky heads, don't get me started on the golden, I couldn't make up my mind with the setters (again with the hair), but I was pleasantly surprised by the GWP and GSP. I thought both those dogs looked like their confirmation had at least stayed true to their field breed cousins. Anyone else notice this?

KwikIrish · Post by **KwikIrish** » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:19 pm

You might find that the Brit, weim, and Irish red and white usually look to be able to perform in the field too. Just because they have hair, different heads and angle doesn't necessicarily mean they aren't capable of doing that job. I can say it seemed to me that we had fewer dogs compete this year who have achieved any field titles at all compared to previous years, and I don't mean just the sporting group. There is usually at least one Dual Ch Representing their breed in the hound or sporting group. I don't think that was the case this year.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:28 pm

I believe the spinone is a MH? Anyway, I like the suite of BOB photos that the NYT (I think) did. The hound group overall has the best functional conformation.

bb560m · Post by **bb560m** » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:40 pm

There was a Vizsla DC AFC MH - not the one in the group though.

KwikIrish · Post by **KwikIrish** » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:42 pm

Good catch, Cajun. And I agree on the hound group.

Brazosvalleyvizslas · Post by **Brazosvalleyvizslas** » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:58 pm

One of the Vizslas that I handle in trials was there. He has his MHA and I placed in all 5 of the FT stakes I handled him in last season. I also have a male who made all of the cuts in 2009 and placed in Ft's on both the weekend before and the weekend after Mew York. He was the only MH there though. One of our females won our national Specialty Show and was Best Of Oposite at WM in 2002 and she's a Master. It's 2 different worlds though, for both dogs and people.

Post by **Sharon** » Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:24 pm

DogNewbie wrote:Not sure if any of you watched the show, but I tuned in for the Sporting Group. I was expecting dogs to look nothing like their working cousins, and for the most part I was right. The pointer looked very houndish in the face to me, all the spaniels were just ridiculous (could be the hair, IDK), the labs/chessies were overweight and had stocky heads, don't get me started on the golden, I couldn't make up my mind with the setters (again with the hair), but I was pleasantly surprised by the GWP and GSP. I thought both those dogs looked like their confirmation had at least stayed true to their field breed cousins. Anyone else notice this?

I agree . Both GSps looked great - especially the wire haired.

Karen · Post by **Karen** » Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:36 pm

The BOS Brittany is the half sister to my NoJenny and guides hunts on her owner's hunting preserve when she's not in the show ring. Several of the other Brittanys do field work when not in the ring. The #1 Brittany in the country hunts with his owner and spends some time in Rich Smith's ranch when he's home (which isn't frequently), another that made the final cut is just 2 yrs old, has spent time with a trainer and has a derby placement. Another is 3 or 4 yrs old (#2 Brittany in the country), and is retiring from the ring now and I believe will be doing some hunt tests.

BUT lets be honest. There is a VERY narrow audience that appreciates a dual champion. They are widely considered mediocre at both show and field. Even in the Brittany, they are not well respected. So why bother breaking your butt and your wallet to accomplish something the masses don't appreciate and won't breed to or buy a puppy out of to compete with?

Post by **Sharon** » Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:44 pm

Because you appreciate it. Life is too short to not invest in what pleases you.

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:45 pm

Karen wrote:The BOS Brittany is the half sister to my NoJenny and guides hunts on her owner's hunting preserve when she's not in the show ring. Several of the other Brittanys do field work when not in the ring. The #1 Brittany in the country hunts with his owner and spends some time in Rich Smith's ranch when he's home (which isn't frequently), another that made the final cut is just 2 yrs old, has spent time with a trainer and has a derby placement. Another is 3 or 4 yrs old (#2 Brittany in the country), and is retiring from the ring now and I believe will be doing some hunt tests.

BUT lets be honest. There is a VERY narrow audience that appreciates a dual champion. They are widely considered mediocre at both show and field. Even in the Brittany, they are not well respected. So why bother breaking your butt and your wallet to accomplish something the masses don't appreciate and won't breed to or buy a puppy out of to compete with?

I am probably just fooling myself but when you see people who don't understand something I do what I can to help educate them with the hope you are making a difference. I see some possitive changes within the Brit people all though very slow and just hope it continues because I am going to keep preaching as long as I am able.

Ezzy

Karen · Post by **Karen** » Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:48 pm

Sharon, I have a DC, a show CH, 2 pups out of those 2 (Forrest & Mist) that both have specialty majors and NoJenny also has a specialty major. Forrest & Mist both have puppy placements and Forrest and JENNY have been south all winter at field training. Oh, and Chloe is 3 singles from her FC.

Why do people bother to rip apart the dogs that play different games than they do? THEY are far more numerous than field trial dogs and their entry fees help keep our sport alive and protected from the likes of PETA and our government.

Thank them for that, don't post how useless they all look.

Post by **Sharon** » Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:50 pm

?????Are you talking to me? My post was intended to be encouraging.

Karen · Post by **Karen** » Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:55 pm

Sharon wrote:?????Are you talking to me? My post was intended to be encouraging.

No Sharon. I understand what you were saying.

KwikIrish · Post by **KwikIrish** » Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:09 pm

Karen wrote: BUT lets be honest. There is a VERY narrow audience that appreciates a dual champion. They are widely considered mediocre at both show and field. Even in the Brittany, they are not well respected. So why bother breaking your butt and your wallet to accomplish something the masses don't appreciate and won't breed to or buy a puppy out of to compete with?

This is where I struggle. I am at step one of my goal, an we all know this program takes numerous steps (generations) before you see consistent results. My fears are:
1. People will see step 2 and 3 as failures or mediocre at best.
2. The market for step 2&3 are extremely minimal. The show people will pass because of the sire, the field people will laugh at the dam...
3. I'll lose the drive to succeed midway through the program.

I have about a year and a half to make my decision and have recently found myself questioning my motive and ability to achieve this on my budget. Then I see dogs, like a dual bred Irish from Ohio come to the Irish national and take an award of merit above 300 other show Irish. Then she turns around and takes two notable majors in the field this fall. That is where I find my motivation, amongst like minded people.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:28 pm

While I applaud the Brittany folks for our successes in these endeavors there will always be a gap. The very best of the two worlds never collide in the same animal. There are highly functional specimens and it will forever be easier to achieve with gun dogs and half hour dogs in my opinion. To be fair, we we cannot even look at weight and conditioning as congruent for the extremes of the separate venues. That being said, I like being around dogs and most dog people and the Brittany/GSP breed clubs that i spend most of my time with have people from all points in both spectrum's and it takes their combined efforts to keep things going and the extremists on check in both sides.

Karen · Post by **Karen** » Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:32 pm

KwikIrish, my DC is by a top 10 show dog and a dam out of mostly hunting lines. He finished his FC in 15 trials, winning two 30+ OGD stakes and placing 2nd in another. He was the #6 Brittany open gun dog in the AKC in 2008. He finished his show CH title in about 6 weekends of showing. No one has EVER ONCE inquired about breeding to him.

We bred him twice. Not a single pup went to show or field homes. Several went to hunters, the rest went to pet homes, except for the 2 we kept.

Those 2 have specialty majors (handled by me, and I'm a terrible handler) and both have multiple puppy placements. We have high hopes for both of them. They will not be taken seriously by anyone (their sire never was), but he still beat a lot of really nice, field bred dogs full of HOF pedigrees.

We purchased a well bred bitch puppy that we felt would cross well with the puppy dog we kept and will breed in a couple of years. NoJenny also has a specialty major and we plan to field trial her.

Do what works for you. Show up with your show champion and beat the pants off the field-bred red setters.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:39 pm

I didn't get to watch the sporting group, but I'll jump in anyway

When I see breeds like the Basset and the Bulldog it makes me sad. And that Peke winner from last year, can barely run the ring. I know he is little but please. They are physically a danger to themselves.
On the other side I feel similar sadness when I watch BOTH the show and Field labs. 40 years and the breed has diverged.

BUT rather than be disgusted with shows and what they have done or trials and what they have done I take the PRO DC view. As long as there are people who try to do both and keep playing both games, if we pull hard enough maybe we can keep the breed ONE breed and not let those folks divide them. There are dedicated folks in many breeds really pushing back to this pulling the breeds back together or keeping them together.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:32 pm

I thought both those dogs looked like their confirmation had at least stayed true to their field breed cousins.

The GSP and GWP were very good moving dogs. I would want to put my hands on the GWP...the back brushing, chalk helper and feathering has me a bit suspicious about the coat.

KwikIrish · Post by **KwikIrish** » Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:38 pm

JKP wrote:
I thought both those dogs looked like their confirmation had at least stayed true to their field breed cousins.
The GSP and GWP were very good moving dogs. I would want to put my hands on the GWP...the back brushing, chalk helper and feathering has me a bit suspicious about the coat.

He was the number one show dog of all breeds in the country last year, we can only hope his coat texture was correct, about every qualified show judge in the country touched it!

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:44 pm

KwikIrish wrote:
JKP wrote:
I thought both those dogs looked like their confirmation had at least stayed true to their field breed cousins.
The GSP and GWP were very good moving dogs. I would want to put my hands on the GWP...the back brushing, chalk helper and feathering has me a bit suspicious about the coat.
He was the number one show dog of all breeds in the country last year, we can only hope his coat texture was correct, about every qualified show judge in the country touched it!

I have heard that a that dog travels the country on a private jet...gets in front of alot of people.

KwikIrish · Post by **KwikIrish** » Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:54 pm

Wyndancer wrote:
KwikIrish wrote:
JKP wrote: The GSP and GWP were very good moving dogs. I would want to put my hands on the GWP...the back brushing, chalk helper and feathering has me a bit suspicious about the coat.
He was the number one show dog of all breeds in the country last year, we can only hope his coat texture was correct, about every qualified show judge in the country touched it!
I have heard that a that dog travels the country on a private jet...gets in front of alot of people.

There was a weekend I drove up to some shows in Illinois where that dog took a best in show in California on a Friday, and Saturday morning, he was in the ring in Illinois. He won best that day, and Sunday, was back in ca for that show. The same thing happened in December when I was in Texas for some shows. There one day, gone the next. Some days it didn't pay off for him, but there were more that it did. He ended the year as top dog. There is so much more that goes along with those stories... And people think trials are political..........

jeffkrop · Post by **jeffkrop** » Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:02 pm

I would like to know more about what you guys are talking about. These are all great reads but some of it is over my head.
How could one learn more about all of this? I would love to have a dog I could compete with but Im lost if its like this.

buckeyebowman · Post by **buckeyebowman** » Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:03 pm

DogNewbie wrote:Not sure if any of you watched the show, but I tuned in for the Sporting Group. I was expecting dogs to look nothing like their working cousins, and for the most part I was right. The pointer looked very houndish in the face to me, all the spaniels were just ridiculous (could be the hair, IDK), the labs/chessies were overweight and had stocky heads, don't get me started on the golden, I couldn't make up my mind with the setters (again with the hair), but I was pleasantly surprised by the GWP and GSP. I thought both those dogs looked like their confirmation had at least stayed true to their field breed cousins. Anyone else notice this?

Yes, I saw it. I understand that the Westminster is the biggest hoity toity dog show in the country, but really! It's called the "Sporting" Dog Group! Must the Spaniels all look like four legged lamp shades?

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:12 pm

WE need to start a thread next year for the Miss America pagent and listen to all of the comments about how it is ruining the working women that we come home too. Bet there wouldn't be a single one of you that refused to date a girl because she looked too good with her hair fixed, makeup, and nice clothes. Just a sure sign they couldn't ever do anything productive.

Ezzy

KwikIrish · Post by **KwikIrish** » Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:25 pm

jeffkrop wrote:I would like to know more about what you guys are talking about. These are all great reads but some of it is over my head.
How could one learn more about all of this? I would love to have a dog I could compete with but Im lost if its like this.

Jeff,
I think I've misled you, sorry about that! 99% of show dogs aren't campaigned like this. This example is more of a definition of what it takes to be the top show dog in the country. Majority of us stick to shows within a more modest radius (perhaps 250 miles) to travel to for a weekend show. To become a show champion, one must only beat dogs of the same gender and breed. Most show champions (depending on the breed) will beat under 100 dogs to become a champion. The dog I spoke of earlier beat somewhere around 100,000 dogs of every breed and gender in a single calandar year.
It's not impossible for an owner to make their show bred dog a show champion, but it is very difficult for the average owner to make their dog a champion show and field dog. Basically we argue that it can be done, but it's unlikely that you will have a dog that is ever great at one of those specific aspects, let alone both. I have to say, this is purely a generalization from my expietnce with my breed of Irish setters. Breeds like Brits, gsps, and ever vizslas find it more easily attainable than others because their field and show dogs share more of a commonality than setters and spaniels. If you did want to try to achieve a dual champion, I'd recommend surrounding yourself with people in your breed who have achieved this and pick their brain, listen, an allow them to guide you.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:10 pm

ezzy333 wrote:WE need to start a thread next year for the Miss America pagent and listen to all of the comments about how it is ruining the working women that we come home too. Bet there wouldn't be a single one of you that refused to date a girl because she looked too good with her hair fixed, makeup, and nice clothes. Just a sure sign they couldn't ever do anything productive.Ezzy

I would participate in that one...I would much rather look at a woman in jeans and and a sweatshirt on horseback than one made-up...I really do not care for glamorous and the process of getting glamorous and what it represents has no appeal to me. However, I work hard at disciplining myself not to be to judgmental of those that do like something different in their culture than I do. I feel the same about dog shows...I go occasionally, and I always sponsor a trophy deal or two though I never know what it means, and it makes me feel good if people are enjoying themselves. However, like some field disciplines...it bores me and the best thing i can do is leave folks to what they enjoy. If I get too involved, too many of them would have to change what they covet in a dog to match what i want, and i really don't feel like I have any business or right to ask people to change for something as irrelevant as their own dogs look, characteristics and behavior...if we stay polite, respectful and with a bit of a cushion it seems to work out best. I sell pups and stud services to a number of folks who compete in both venues, and I think it works because of the mutual respect...I do it politely even when i turn a breeding down.

UpNorthHuntin · Post by **UpNorthHuntin** » Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:18 pm

KwikIrish wrote:You might find that the Brit, weim, and Irish red and white usually look to be able to perform in the field too. Just because they have hair, different heads and angle doesn't necessicarily mean they aren't capable of doing that job. I can say it seemed to me that we had fewer dogs compete this year who have achieved any field titles at all compared to previous years, and I don't mean just the sporting group. There is usually at least one Dual Ch Representing their breed in the hound or sporting group. I don't think that was the case this year.

Hasn't the Britt Breed in fact produced more Dual CH than any other breed? YES!! I believe they have. I find very little difference in the looks of these three either (Brit, weim, and Irish red).

KwikIrish · Post by **KwikIrish** » Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:22 pm

UpNorthHuntin wrote:
KwikIrish wrote:You might find that the Brit, weim, and Irish red and white usually look to be able to perform in the field too. Just because they have hair, different heads and angle doesn't necessicarily mean they aren't capable of doing that job. I can say it seemed to me that we had fewer dogs compete this year who have achieved any field titles at all compared to previous years, and I don't mean just the sporting group. There is usually at least one Dual Ch Representing their breed in the hound or sporting group. I don't think that was the case this year.
Hasn't the Britt Breed in fact produced more Dual CH than any other breed? YES!! I believe they have. I find very little difference in the looks of these three either (Brit, weim, and Irish red).

In regards to brits having the most DC's I'm not arguing otherwise, but clarify your statement about the comparison of the Brit, Irish and weim for me, I'm not following. Are you saying the Irish look at functional as the Brits?

Aslowhiteguy · Post by **Aslowhiteguy** » Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:16 pm

UpNorthHuntin wrote:
KwikIrish wrote:You might find that the Brit, weim, and Irish red and white usually look to be able to perform in the field too. Just because they have hair, different heads and angle doesn't necessicarily mean they aren't capable of doing that job. I can say it seemed to me that we had fewer dogs compete this year who have achieved any field titles at all compared to previous years, and I don't mean just the sporting group. There is usually at least one Dual Ch Representing their breed in the hound or sporting group. I don't think that was the case this year.
Hasn't the Britt Breed in fact produced more Dual CH than any other breed? YES!! I believe they have. I find very little difference in the looks of these three either (Brit, weim, and Irish red).

They have. I think it's because the breed club writes the standards and wants a dog that can perform the task it was bred for. I have no problems seeing DC in a brits ped if I'm looking for a pup. I actually consider it a plus. I wouldn't say the same for some other breeds.

Steve007 · Post by **Steve007** » Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:16 pm

UpNorthHuntin wrote:[Hasn't the Britt Breed in fact produced more Dual CH than any other breed? YES!! I believe they have. I find very little difference in the looks of these three either (Brit, weim, and Irish red).

Certainly possible, for all I know. But someone asked me about DC GWP and I counted (if I counted right) 79 listed on the GWPCA website in a breed with much lower registrations than Brits. Big winning dogs,too, in both venues. Not just "compromise" dogs, as in some breeds.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:02 pm

Steve007 wrote:
UpNorthHuntin wrote:[Hasn't the Britt Breed in fact produced more Dual CH than any other breed? YES!! I believe they have. I find very little difference in the looks of these three either (Brit, weim, and Irish red).
Certainly possible, for all I know. But someone asked me about DC GWP and I counted (if I counted right) 79 listed on the GWPCA website in a breed with much lower registrations than Brits. Big winning dogs,too, in both venues. Not just "compromise" dogs, as in some breeds.

Steve gets to a good point here. Brits have what, 12k dogs reg'ed per year? Granted, they have, what, 600 DC's? But as a percent of dogs registered, are they really leading the pack?

Brazosvalleyvizslas · Post by **Brazosvalleyvizslas** » Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:52 pm

The Brit people do a much better job of adhering to the duality of the breed, no question. They do have the advantage of fur though.

Karen · Post by **Karen** » Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:27 am

There are more DCs in Brittanys than in all the other breeds combined. They are finally requiring DNA on file for all dogs competing at the nationals starting this year, and hopefully those requirements will expand in the future.

LincolnAlexander · Post by **LincolnAlexander** » Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:48 am

UpNorthHuntin wrote:Hasn't the Britt Breed in fact produced more Dual CH than any other breed? YES!! I believe they have. I find very little difference in the looks of these three either (Brit, weim, and Irish red).

An interesting discussion. I find it interesting that Weim's are included... they have among the lowest representation of Dual Champions (as far as I know, there are 2 living... both over 10 years old). From what I heard, the highest level of hunting title on any of the Weims is a JH (which 3? of them had).

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:07 am

I have NO love of dog shows. Over the long haul, they have given a lot of owners "woo hoo" moments and done precious little for any breed, besides split them in factions. I think it would be much better for thebreeds if clinical eavluations were given rather than having folks believe that a CH is evidence of breedability or anything else. Over the years I have seen so many average specimens become champions in various breeds....all you have to do is find enough below average dogs to compete against...and don't think such entries aren't being arranged.

IMO...there are two kinds of folks that show sporting dogs....show people that dabble in performance venues....and performance people who want to show their dogs can win conformation shows....and they are in the minority.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:07 am

JKP wrote:I have NO love of dog shows. Over the long haul, they have given a lot of owners "woo hoo" moments and done precious little for any breed, besides split them in factions. I think it would be much better for thebreeds if clinical eavluations were given rather than having folks believe that a CH is evidence of breedability or anything else. Over the years I have seen so many average specimens become champions in various breeds....all you have to do is find enough below average dogs to compete against...and don't think such entries aren't being arranged.

IMO...there are two kinds of folks that show sporting dogs....show people that dabble in performance venues....and performance people who want to show their dogs can win conformation shows....and they are in the minority.

A great explanantion of the internal workings of something he has never taken part in and knows little about. Not making fun of you JKP but it seems this is the modern way. [/b] "Everyone needs to do and think like me." And if they don't, they are crooked and whatever happens is their fault.

I really think there is enough fault for everyone to have a little but even though it is hard to find sometimes there is more good than bad.

Ezzy

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:39 am

Ezzy,

I probably know more about dog shows than you might think...started participating over 50 years ago and decided 20 years ago there was absolutely nothing of value that can come from it...accept the hospitality hour and overpriced 8x10" glossy photos. I have finished Bullmastiffs, Border Terriers and GWPs in the ring, my first CH in 1960 More important, I have watched dogs be powdered, puffed, painted and otherwise falsified in order to be shown. I won't get into it here...its big business that really doesn't serve true working dogs.

Of the hundreds of Champions with little evidence of performance....exactly which dogs are of value in a pedigree?? Who knows?? As a breeder, I measure the value of activities...how pretty a dog is...isn't a question until I know what its worth as a working dog. Bless the folks that DO won't to put the whole package together....but I wouldn't support the AKC and what it has done to pure bred dogs. I don't need a CH to tell me how well a dog moves.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:31 am

JKP wrote:Ezzy,

I probably know more about dog shows than you might think...started participating over 50 years ago and decided 20 years ago there was absolutely nothing of value that can come from it...accept the hospitality hour and overpriced 8x10" glossy photos. I have finished Bullmastiffs, Border Terriers and GWPs in the ring, my first CH in 1960 More important, I have watched dogs be powdered, puffed, painted and otherwise falsified in order to be shown. I won't get into it here...its big business that really doesn't serve true working dogs.

Of the hundreds of Champions with little evidence of performance....exactly which dogs are of value in a pedigree?? Who knows?? As a breeder, I measure the value of activities...how pretty a dog is...isn't a question until I know what its worth as a working dog. Bless the folks that DO won't to put the whole package together....but I wouldn't support the AKC and what it has done to pure bred dogs. I don't need a CH to tell me how well a dog moves.

I value the breed and that includes the breed as a whole, looks, confirmation and performance. And I sure wouldn't take my dogs into the ring without having them look the best they can. Heck, I even dress up when I go to church and that isn't a beauty contest. I have found it is just as easy to have a good looking dog as it is an ugly one and I haven't found the ugly ones hunt a bit better. Some that do not fit the standard of the breed may perform differently though and that may be why I don't care for them. I still operate on the theory that we have different breeds because we want a different performance which I know isn't popular today. But without performance differences there is no real good reason to have different breeds, and if you want to ignore the breed conformation standards and breed just performance there would be no reason at all for different breeds since you would no longer know what they are by looking.

It has always seemed odd to listen to people say the standard means nothing to them and in the same breath get totally bent out of shape about the color of the dog, the position of the tail, and many other things that have no real purpose in the field other than looks. But if someone tries to make their dog look good in a show ring they are completely out of bounds or it is all politics. Winners enjoy while losers find fault.

Just the way it is,

Ezzy

UpNorthHuntin · Post by **UpNorthHuntin** » Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:36 am

JKP wrote:Ezzy,

I probably know more about dog shows than you might think...started participating over 50 years ago and decided 20 years ago there was absolutely nothing of value that can come from it...accept the hospitality hour and overpriced 8x10" glossy photos.

I realize to hard-core hunters and field trialers we really don't see the added value, but I do tend to look at it in a little different view in the fact that it just shows a little more versatility in the line. Now do I care if there are a bunch of DCs or even TCs in my dog??? No!! However, if I am looking for that very special companion hunting dog that is also good in the home and a loveable family pet in the off season, it may way a little higher on the scale.

Very good point in the amount of Brittanys in the registry, but the numbers of Dual Champions are still pretty staggering compared to the other breeds (all of them combined). I guess thequestion to ask though is the popularity of the Brittany is reflected in the amount of registered animals.... Is this due to the amount of DCs in the breed, or the reverse. I would argue that the popularity of the breed is a direct result of the DC titles, and not the opposite.

I'm not really concerned if my dog ever goes to a show or not, but agility on the other hand, I think that I will give a try. My dog has a motor that just won't quit, so maybe it will calm his but down a little to be worked that hard in the off-season:)

Brazosvalleyvizslas · Post by **Brazosvalleyvizslas** » Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:03 pm

Lincoln, there is a Weimy out here who's has his FC AFC SH (maybe MH now) and a bunch of obed titles so I'm not sure how you believe that JH is as high of a field title that they can or have gotten.

Brazosvalleyvizslas · Post by **Brazosvalleyvizslas** » Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:09 pm

Upnorth, you can wear your dog down practicing Agility but don't expect the trials to wear out a field dog. My ex would call me when my boy was done and I'd go pick him up and go hunting. He comes out of the crate the same as if he came off of the bed. Their runs just don't last long enough to even wear out the handlers much less an athletic dog. You do get to see some good crashes off of the dog walk though.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:11 pm

There are very, very successful Britts in the field that are dual champions gun dogs and all-age dogs, many of the national winners are just that. However, there is a far cry between those dogs and the dogs that show up in Westminster. To prepare a dog for both would be a daunting task if not impossible?

I do want to respond to Your thoughts Ezzy about maintaining breed standard. To my line of thinking maintaining a breed standard does not begin and end with just the dimensions of the dog. There are temperaments, characteristics ,personalities, etc... to maintain. I like breeding dogs to the extent that I believe people will use them for their intended purpose and in a limited enough quantity that I believe I can semi control them getting in the proper hands. My stud dog Sonny is the cornerstone of my intended breeding plan, and its for a lot of different qualities. His style on point and high cracking tail, animated run etc...are an extension of his "personality." When something is judged what may be difficult to describe or even intangible qualities often make the difference. Sonny has style and intensity because he loves being a bird dog, and he does it to the absolute extreme, sometimes beyond my ability to train and handle. All that being said, he is the model citizen in his breed. The same attitude is seen on the line, he is quiet and satisfied, even patient. He can live kenneled in a box in a trailer and spend days on the line with the same attitude that he takes with free roam on acreage at home and sleeping at the foot of my bed.

To me, these are some of the best things in the Brittany breed and sporting breeds in general, I want the edge and horsepower, and I don't want a lot of maintenance and fuss to just own a dog. I know of Brittany lines that are sent home by a pro from paying customers because they are a PITA ...digging holes, barking incessantly and running circles in the dirt on the line with nervous energy...some have managed to earn a DC after a number of years and you couldn't pay me to own, handle or breed to them.

LincolnAlexander · Post by **LincolnAlexander** » Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:46 pm

Brazosvalleyvizslas wrote:Lincoln, there is a Weimy out here who's has his FC AFC SH (maybe MH now) and a bunch of obed titles so I'm not sure how you believe that JH is as high of a field title that they can or have gotten.

Sorry Brazo I meant specifically those who were entered in Westminister this year. I think there are 30-40 FC or AFCs Weims alive at the moment, and a much larger number with SH or MH.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:05 pm

It has always seemed odd to listen to people say the standard means nothing to them and in the same breath get totally bent out of shape about the color of the dog, the position of the tail, and many other things that have no real purpose in the field other than looks. But if someone tries to make their dog look good in a show ring they are completely out of bounds or it is all politics. Winners enjoy while losers find fault.

Ezzy,
As long as shows are used to further evaluate proven working dogs, I have no problem. If they are used to legitimize single purpose dogs so that "breed enthusiasts" can sit on folding chairs and cheer for dogs that are still unproven as far as breed purpose, then...no...I'd rather not have the AKC.

BTW....go online and look at how many products are out there to falsify the presentation of dogs. Paint for nails, powder for hair, hair stiffeners, softeners...there are even tricks to make the eyes appear darker.

The GWP was a fine looking specimen...may I ask how many of our FT, NAVHDA, NSTRA, etc enthusiasts will be calling to get a breeding to the dog

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:01 pm

Joe and JKP, remember I said looks conformation and performance. In my mind I include personalliy when I think performance but I may be using too wide of a brush. Maybe LOOKS, CONFORMATION, PERSONALLITY, and PERFORMANCE. Breeding for only one or two is what splits breeds. When we say Brit we are talking each of those four atributes just as we are when we say GSP, Lab, Springer, or Border Collie.I want to be able to tell what breed they are by looks but also conformation and performance. I hate it when I get to the field and find I brought the Border Collie and the Mini-Pin instead of the Brit and Pointer.

Ezzy

fuzznut · Post by **fuzznut** » Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:07 pm

To the question about the number of Dc's in Britts, vs other breeds, there are a couple of things to keep in mind. I'm not going to say this to knock them, but it's true... Britts have their own world! They have their own trials open to their own breed which allows them to finish a whole lot of Britts. I applaud them for promoting the DC dog!!!!!!

Compare that to the GWP who have very very few (maybe 3 in a year?) trials or stakes closed to GWP's only. So GWP's have to compete against all comers to finish that FC in a DC title. Not complaining, not at all as I think it makes us better all the way around. Just a point to be made.

Vizsla's have a lot of closed stakes, as do the Weims and some setter club events. Again, not knocking it, just the truth. There should be a lot of DC's coming out of those breeds.

Now Westminster... it is what it is and every year we have this same discussion! Getting a field competition dog to win the sporting group.... dang near impossible. First off, the dog that won this year has been on the show circuit for over 2 yrs preparing for that night. That's 2 yrs of traveling around the country showing every weekend. When would you find the time to trial, train, condition etc? It ain't easy. Been there, done that and it was exhausting. Took one year of my life showing and trialing a dog. Top ten ft dog, top ten show dog, Award of Merit at Westminster in the breed. Never again would I attempt it. And as hard as we worked, as good as he was, as much as I wanted it.... to actually win the group there? Pipe dream at its best.

But it sure would be nice to see more DC, or CH MH dogs at "that" big dance!

I still want my Dual Champions... but it's not the end all be all like it used to be for me.

Brazosvalleyvizslas · Post by **Brazosvalleyvizslas** » Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:29 pm

Very few closed Vizsla stakes or trials out here. I compete against every breed including Brits.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:31 pm

ezzy333 wrote:I hate it when I get to the field and find I brought the Border Collie and the Mini-Pin instead of the Brit and Pointer.

I can't argue there Al...that would certainly harsh my mellow as well

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:42 pm

But it sure would be nice to see more DC, or CH MH dogs at "that" big dance!

I still want my Dual Champions... but it's not the end all be all like it used to be for me.

Fuzz, you have nothing left to prove and have put your dogs out there to take their knocks for years...respect is due. However, notice how the AKC frames your thinking and defines your goals. A premier Vdog breed is now defined by bird dog and show dog titles...and not 5 minutes in the water...or more than a 20 yd callback....and this while many still see a NAVHDA dog as a second class dog. Another reason, why I am not a fan of the AKC...they name the games that go on the pedigree.

buckeyebowman · Post by **buckeyebowman** » Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:52 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
JKP wrote:Ezzy,

I probably know more about dog shows than you might think...started participating over 50 years ago and decided 20 years ago there was absolutely nothing of value that can come from it...accept the hospitality hour and overpriced 8x10" glossy photos. I have finished Bullmastiffs, Border Terriers and GWPs in the ring, my first CH in 1960 More important, I have watched dogs be powdered, puffed, painted and otherwise falsified in order to be shown. I won't get into it here...its big business that really doesn't serve true working dogs.

Of the hundreds of Champions with little evidence of performance....exactly which dogs are of value in a pedigree?? Who knows?? As a breeder, I measure the value of activities...how pretty a dog is...isn't a question until I know what its worth as a working dog. Bless the folks that DO won't to put the whole package together....but I wouldn't support the AKC and what it has done to pure bred dogs. I don't need a CH to tell me how well a dog moves.
I value the breed and that includes the breed as a whole, looks, confirmation and performance. And I sure wouldn't take my dogs into the ring without having them look the best they can. Heck, I even dress up when I go to church and that isn't a beauty contest. I have found it is just as easy to have a good looking dog as it is an ugly one and I haven't found the ugly ones hunt a bit better. Some that do not fit the standard of the breed may perform differently though and that may be why I don't care for them. I still operate on the theory that we have different breeds because we want a different performance which I know isn't popular today. But without performance differences there is no real good reason to have different breeds, and if you want to ignore the breed conformation standards and breed just performance there would be no reason at all for different breeds since you would no longer know what they are by looking.

It has always seemed odd to listen to people say the standard means nothing to them and in the same breath get totally bent out of shape about the color of the dog, the position of the tail, and many other things that have no real purpose in the field other than looks. But if someone tries to make their dog look good in a show ring they are completely out of bounds or it is all politics. Winners enjoy while losers find fault.

Just the way it is,

Ezzy

True that "ugly" dogs don't always perform better than than the "pretty" ones, but I have seen plenty of "pretty" dogs that couldn't hunt a lick. And I have no problem with the dogs being clean, well groomed, and looking their best, but for crying out loud! This is the "Sporting Dog" category after all. What I expect to see is a dog that I could take from the show ring, put in a crate, take to the field and have it perform on birds! In that regard the Spaniels just looked ridiculous! As I said before they looked like four legged lamp shades! In my humble opinion that is not a sporting dog looking it's best! It looks like an affectation!