Westminster Sporting Group

[Stoneface]

BUT lets be honest. There is a VERY narrow audience that appreciates a dual champion. They are widely considered mediocre at both show and field. Even in the Brittany, they are not well respected. So why bother breaking your butt and your wallet to accomplish something the masses don't appreciate and won't breed to or buy a puppy out of to compete with?

This is where I struggle. I am at step one of my goal, an we all know this program takes numerous steps (generations) before you see consistent results. My fears are:
1. People will see step 2 and 3 as failures or mediocre at best.
2. The market for step 2&3 are extremely minimal. The show people will pass because of the sire, the field people will laugh at the dam...
3. I'll lose the drive to succeed midway through the program.

I have about a year and a half to make my decision and have recently found myself questioning my motive and ability to achieve this on my budget. Then I see dogs, like a dual bred Irish from Ohio come to the Irish national and take an award of merit above 300 other show Irish. Then she turns around and takes two notable majors in the field this fall. That is where I find my motivation, amongst like minded people.

Kelli, I know exactly what you're saying. Your goal and mine are a little different, but I have all those same fears about there not being the demand for the kind of pups I want to breed to justify breeding them. There's such a narrow pool of puppy buyers as it is, so narrowing it anymore is a scary idea. I don't have that third fear. I don't think I'll lose my drive, but I am afraid I'll have to hang it up because there just won't be any place for my puppies to go. It seriously keeps you up at night! What I've resolved to is to just decide to pace myself, not get in a hurry and be prepared to realize that with every litter I may lose a ton of money or have eight new dogs to care for, for however long it takes.

[JKP]

I am afraid I'll have to hang it up because there just won't be any place for my puppies to go.

A buddy of mine called tonight to say he decided not to breed his (very nice!!) bitch but to just go buy a pup. Several buyers had bowed out and he looked at the club website and saw 50 litters listed between now and March. Wise decision.

[Redfishkilla]

This was a great thread....I'd like to add one more observation that I didn't see mentioned. Have you ever noticed that the hairy dogs win most of the time? I think it's because at that level the judge doesn't want to be scrutinized so they pick one that can't be judged from the gallery. Much like show steers, it turns into a hair growing contest....and the dog that won this year was black I think.....I guess black makes it harder to see flaws too? So the hairy black dog won just like the hairy black steers win.

[JKP]

Have you ever noticed that the hairy dogs win most of the time?

Pretty simple, really....dogs with lots of coat can be "sculpted" to look better. Now a good judge sees that, especially in the movement. But, much of dog shows is the eye appeal and the outline when the dog "stacks".

IMO...this is the reason GWP coats are longer than DD coats overall...the influence of the show ring. More hair means you can round the stifle, fluff the fore chest and back brush the legs for more substance...maybe get that croup just a touch straighter. Don't forget!! You'll need a little cholesterol to keep your sculpture in place.

[ezzy333]

This was a great thread....I'd like to add one more observation that I didn't see mentioned. Have you ever noticed that the hairy dogs win most of the time? I think it's because at that level the judge doesn't want to be scrutinized so they pick one that can't be judged from the gallery. Much like show steers, it turns into a hair growing contest....and the dog that won this year was black I think.....I guess black makes it harder to see flaws too? So the hairy black dog won just like the hairy black steers win.

I did notice all of the dogs were Champions and were every color in the book. Wonder how that happened?

Ezzy

[Karen]

I am afraid I'll have to hang it up because there just won't be any place for my puppies to go.

A buddy of mine called tonight to say he decided not to breed his (very nice!!) bitch but to just go buy a pup. Several buyers had bowed out and he looked at the club website and saw 50 litters listed between now and March. Wise decision.

I really don't agree with this. Prove your breeding stock, build a reputation for yourself, get involved with your local breed clubs so that you get referrals from them, and your pups will sell.

After 10+ years in the breed, and 7 years competing, we bred 2 litters. We had all pups sold out of both litters by the time they were 2 weeks old. A neighbor backed out on us last minute. That pup took an extra week to sell. They went to hunters & pet homes. We kept 2 to prove (both of those have majors in the show ring and puppy placements).

[UpNorthHuntin]

Hasn't the Britt Breed in fact produced more Dual CH than any other breed? YES!! I believe they have. I find very little difference in the looks of these three either (Brit, weim, and Irish red).

In regards to brits having the most DC's I'm not arguing otherwise, but clarify your statement about the comparison of the Brit, Irish and weim for me, I'm not following. Are you saying the Irish look at functional as the Brits?[/quote]

Sorry, I didn't see this wuestion. Yes, I meant that I agreed with the earlier assessment that all of the listed breeds at the Westminster looked like they could be very functional in the field. Not as big of difference in the conformation standards between show vs hunting lines.

[ezzy333]

Hasn't the Britt Breed in fact produced more Dual CH than any other breed? YES!! I believe they have. I find very little difference in the looks of these three either (Brit, weim, and Irish red).

In regards to brits having the most DC's I'm not arguing otherwise, but clarify your statement about the comparison of the Brit, Irish and weim for me, I'm not following. Are you saying the Irish look at functional as the Brits?

Sorry, I didn't see this wuestion. Yes, I meant that I agreed with the earlier assessment that all of the listed breeds at the Westminster looked like they could be very functional in the field. Not as big of difference in the conformation standards between show vs hunting lines.

There is only one standard, not one for show and another for hunting.

Ezzy

[UpNorthHuntin]

There is only one standard, not one for show and another for hunting.

Ezzy

Yes, but are you telling me that a Springer for example that is field bred looks like a Sringer that is bred for the ring? Or an even better example is a Cocker bred for the ring versus a "field cocker". Standards on many breeds are very general in nature and there is a lot of room for variance in the actual look of the animal. The brittany breed and many others do not breed this variance into the animal and therefore by looking at a CH vs FC or AFC there is not as much difference in the way they look. All my point was is that I agreed that the other three breeds looked as though they had the body to possibly perform in the field.

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

There is always a large increase in demand for whatever breed wins WM. The dog that wins each breed is normally the number 1 ranked dog from the prior year so by the time it comes down to "Best in Show", they are all top dogs and the judge really can't go wrong. Some judges will pick a more "exotic" lesser known breed because it will not flood that market. Hence, the Affenpincher.

As for there being two standards? In many of the breeds there is the written standard and then there is what the judge points. This leads to breeders changing their breed to win. If we really want to get technical, the written standards are open to interpretation so each judge has there own standard just like FT judges.

[ezzy333]

Ezzy,

I probably know more about dog shows than you might think...started participating over 50 years ago and decided 20 years ago there was absolutely nothing of value that can come from it...accept the hospitality hour and overpriced 8x10" glossy photos. I have finished Bullmastiffs, Border Terriers and GWPs in the ring, my first CH in 1960 More important, I have watched dogs be powdered, puffed, painted and otherwise falsified in order to be shown. I won't get into it here...its big business that really doesn't serve true working dogs.

Of the hundreds of Champions with little evidence of performance....exactly which dogs are of value in a pedigree?? Who knows?? As a breeder, I measure the value of activities...how pretty a dog is...isn't a question until I know what its worth as a working dog. Bless the folks that DO won't to put the whole package together....but I wouldn't support the AKC and what it has done to pure bred dogs. I don't need a CH to tell me how well a dog moves.

I am amazed it took you 30 years to discover that you there just to get a glossy 8X10. I sure don't want to blow showing up so that anyone thinks it is the end all of the dog world. It isn't. Never has been and hopefully never will be. But I also want to tell people the same is true of field trials. If you want to improve your breed then they both are a requirement. I never had the money to do a lot of trialing but I did do some showing for several years since I could find enough dogs to take with me to pay my expenses. My only rule for my dogs was they had to prove they could hunt before they ever went into the show ring. And I didn't sell or keep pups for breeding that didn't meet those standards. I never have and I never will since I like the breed and the dogs that made it up when I got into it. But I will have to admit every dog that I took in the ring was powdered,puffed, painted, but I like to use the collective term of groomed before they went in, but I also groom before they run in a trial and quite often before they come in the house. Think it goes back to the fact that I stated before, I want a dog, any dog to look its best when going out in public but I also like it when I have to feed them everyday.

We had a young lady on this forum several years ago that everytime shows were mentioned she used all of the adjectives you have plus many more to poo-poo the shows as a worthless politicle exercise that people cheated in to win with dogs she wouldn't even consider owning. Then she sold a litter of pups and several of the buyers decided to show their pups and two or three of them won a puppy class. Suddenly the complaining was replaced with pictures of the pups and what they had won and I never heard a single complaint after that. I don't think this is anything unique to one individual as it pretty well sums up a very large percent of the people I have met over the years. Stated simply it would be those who try, win and smile, while those who don't try, lose and complain.

[JKP]

Standards on many breeds are very general in nature and there is a lot of room for variance in the actual look of the animal.

There are several points to take in consideration when discussing judges and judging.

Judges are people and have their own preferences.
Judges are beholden to the entrants for their livelihood. The breed clubs have a lot of sway as to the judges they want to judge their breed. Entrants sometimes pull their entries or just don't show according to who is judging and which dogs they hear may be present. The show organizers don't ask judges that can't draw an entry to judge.
Judges that withhold the blue ribbon (the points) almost guarantee they will not get an assignment to judge that breed again. So it becomes a best dog of the day contest, which depending upon the competition may not really mean much.
Breeds with large entries are less likely to see mediocre dogs being placed. (The AKC almost prohibits standards with disqualifications.)

Standards are fluid. A great deal has to do with what "type" of dog is predominating the entries. IMO..this was a good part of the reason that years back 100+lb Labradors were the norm. I believe this is why it is more difficult to get a shorter, harder coated GWP finished in the ring...because for years the dogs with feathers have been what has been more often presented.

Last...many judges don't really know a breed that well, especially those with fewer numbers. That is the reason that breed clubs attend judges information seminars to educate the judges about the breeds they are judging. Again, the more popular breeds (large entries) seem to have less of a problem.

[Steve007]

[this is why it is more difficult to get a shorter, harder coated GWP finished in the ring...because for years the dogs with feathers have been what has been more often presented.

And you know this how? From watching the groups at Westminster on TV once a year? From interacting with other breed-blind, biased and uninformed Draht people? From hearing from someone whose dog didn't win make excuses that the dog was just "too good to win"?

ezzy333 wrote:

those who try, win and smile, while those who don't try, lose and complain.

GWP breed standard

The functional wiry coat is the breed’s most distinctive feature. A dog must have a correct coat to be of correct type. The coat is weather resistant and, to some extent, water-repellent. The undercoat is dense enough in winter to insulate against the cold but is so thin in summer as to be almost invisible. The distinctive outer coat is straight, harsh, wiry and flat lying, and is from one to two inches in length. The outer coat is long enough to protect against the punishment of rough cover, but not so long as to hide the outline of the dog. Over the shoulders and around the tail it is very dense and heavy. The tail is nicely coated, but devoid of feather. A short smooth coat, a soft woolly coat, or an excessively long coat is to be severely penalized. Coats may be neatly groomed to present a dog natural in appearance. Extreme and excessive grooming to present a dog artificial in appearance should be severely penalized.

[JKP]

And you know this how? From watching the groups at Westminster on TV once a year?

Easy there, Kemosabe...I know it from having been in the breed for 25+ years and from talking with lots of folks that still are....and having lived in Germany for 11 years I have seen the other side of the issue.

The functional wiry coat is the breed’s most distinctive feature.

Yes it should be. But if you are not aware of the number of "sheep" that have become champions, then you have way less experience than you want us to believe. This is not to say that there aren't some very good coats that finish but Feathered legs, chest, stifle and undercarriage have nothing to do with harsh coat....sorry....and there are too many made up coats. It has become accepted that coats must constantly be stripped, rolled, taken all the way down, shown at half length so they appear harsh,etc ....you do very little of that with a good working coat. To me, its where the coat meets the cover that is most crucial...the leading edges...forelegs, feet, chest, underside and stifle. Long soft feathering may look great in the show ring....it doesn't offer a dog much protection in the field.

[KwikIrish]

There is always a large increase in demand for whatever breed wins WM. The dog that wins each breed is normally the number 1 ranked dog from the prior year so by the time it comes down to "Best in Show", they are all top dogs and the judge really can't go wrong. Some judges will pick a more "exotic" lesser known breed because it will not flood that market. Hence, the Affenpincher.

Are you saying judges at westy will put up a breed based on trying not to flood the market? This makes me laugh, sorry, but that is the furthest of reasons a dog wins there...

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

Then you don't know any judge who's judge the Best in Show.

[KwikIrish]

Then you don't know any judge who's judge the Best in Show.

That's hilarious as last year's best judge has known me since I was a twinkle in my mom's eye.
Politics? Yes. Thought the dog was legitimately nice? Yes. Chose the dog because they thought it would be the least impacted by the consumer rush? Hardly. But, keep preaching like you're an expert.

[fuzznut]

Honestly? I think many of us diehard GWP were just absolutely thrilled for Oakely, the GWP who won the group.... but we were thinking about what could happen if he won BIS. Many of us were already working on how to do writeups on why this breed is NOT the breed for everyone and how to stop the masses from wanting one.

It's a double edged sword, he's a lovely dog!!!!! We are all proud as punch of him.

I'm positive the Affenpincher folks will get a ton of inquiries on the breed, and I'm positive there will be fly by night breeders out there producing as many as they can to fill the quota. I hope their breeders can keep it in check.

For his owners.. I was rooting for him! For the breed.... not so much.
Fuzz

[ezzy333]

Then you don't know any judge who's judge the Best in Show.

You have to be kidding. Lets see in the past 2 weeks you have known more people in more places than Superman I believe. And along with that you know more about everything than anyone else. And you do all of this an expect everyone to believe you even when we have been there and know better.

Maybe just back off for a bit would help.

Ezzy

[Brazosvalleyvizslas]

EZZY and Kwikirish, I was not trying to imply that I'm an expert. I have had judges tell me to my face that this is a concern when SOME judges are given the responsibility for the BIS ring. I personnaly agree with Kwiks apparent breeding philosophy and concerns. I myself face the same dilemma, but why must my experience be labeled as something different then others. We can have different experiences without it ruffling someones feathers.

[KwikIrish]

For his owners.. I was rooting for him! For the breed.... not so much.
Fuzz

You speak the truth.

[Cajun Casey]

As far as WKC BOB creating a demand, the times I have legitimately seen that happen recently were with JR, Loki and, maybe, Carlee although I'd say it was more breeders jumping on the GSP bandwagon than customer demand. Right now, I'd be willing to bet more people recognize Shiba Inu than Affenpinsers.

[ezzy333]

EZZY and Kwikirish, I was not trying to imply that I'm an expert. I have had judges tell me to my face that this is a concern when SOME judges are given the responsibility for the BIS ring. I personnaly agree with Kwiks apparent breeding philosophy and concerns. I myself face the same dilemma, but why must my experience be labeled as something different then others. We can have different experiences without it ruffling someones feathers.

Lets just put it this way, you are just feeding us hearsay type comments. It makes little difference what you have had a judge tell you since his comments would have little bearing on what any other judge would do and the judges have no say in who is asked to do the judgeing. Why would a judge be so concerned what another judge might do. If it really is a concern why hasn't he reported the individual who does it? And why haven't any of us that are involved or have been involved aware of this dastardly deed? Sounds like you are just repeating an ill advised comment from someone who doesn't like someone else. And I don't think we need that here.

If someone is cheating and hasn't been reported then rest assured it is the same old story of gossip from a trouble maker and not a reputable judge.

Ezzy

[Redfishkilla]

Redfishkilla wrote:
This was a great thread....I'd like to add one more observation that I didn't see mentioned. Have you ever noticed that the hairy dogs win most of the time? I think it's because at that level the judge doesn't want to be scrutinized so they pick one that can't be judged from the gallery. Much like show steers, it turns into a hair growing contest....and the dog that won this year was black I think.....I guess black makes it harder to see flaws too? So the hairy black dog won just like the hairy black steers win.

I did notice all of the dogs were Champions and were every color in the book. Wonder how that happened?

Ezzy

Ezzy, if you'd read you'd see that I said a black dog won the whole show....I didn't say black dogs when every time. You don't have anything better to do that make little snide comments about a pretty much meaningless post?

[ezzy333]

Redfishkilla wrote:
This was a great thread....I'd like to add one more observation that I didn't see mentioned. Have you ever noticed that the hairy dogs win most of the time? I think it's because at that level the judge doesn't want to be scrutinized so they pick one that can't be judged from the gallery. Much like show steers, it turns into a hair growing contest....and the dog that won this year was black I think.....I guess black makes it harder to see flaws too? So the hairy black dog won just like the hairy black steers win.

I did notice all of the dogs were Champions and were every color in the book. Wonder how that happened?

Ezzy

Ezzy, if you'd read you'd see that I said a black dog won the whole show....I didn't say black dogs when every time. You don't have anything better to do that make little snide comments about a pretty much meaningless post?

I hate it too but it is what I get paid to do. :roll: :roll:

[JKP]

The discussion is really academic because I find serious hunters are skeptical of dogs (owners) that spend time in show rings...and die-hard show folks look at working dogs as second class specimens for the most part. There are exceptions of course.

[Aslowhiteguy]

The discussion is really academic because I find serious hunters are skeptical of dogs (owners) that spend time in show rings...

That holds true for this hunter.
When I'm looking for a pup, I don't mind seeing a few show titles in a ped, but when I see more than a few I rule that breeding out.

I could be wrong about this, but it seems to me that many who strive for the DC title, seem to put more emphasis on the show. At least that is the impression I've formed from looking at various breeders websites. I know there are exceptions to this. Some of those exceptions are members of this board.