How would you handle this trial situation

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PntrRookie
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How would you handle this trial situation

Post by PntrRookie » Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:29 pm

Untitled-1.jpg
We ran dogs yesterday and this is what happened...in this order. Wind is noted as the big white arrow.

1. Dog is running right to left in the middle to top edge of the tree line.
2. Goes on point in the tree line at point D1 facing straight to the left (past B1 where we later determine the bird "was")
3. Handler is NOT there - dog relocates himself (wiggly white line) and hunts slowly forward (going straight left).
4. BEFORE the dog makes the turn back to the right, the bird flushes - from B1 - on its own behind the dog and lands in the open field B2. Dog NEVER saw it.
5. Dog continues left and comes back to the right and establishes point at spot D2 - looking toward the top of the picture - NOT where the bird now sits.
6. You arrive to work the find...

What would you do if you are the judge...
A. and did not see what happened but see the bird in the open field OR
B. did see what happened

What would you do if you are the handler...
A. and did not see what happened but see the bird in the open field OR
B. and did see what happened

Cool thing was I was running with a Pro and he stopped everything and made us decide what we would do. Sure helped being green to hear it from someone who has been trialing for 20 years.
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Brazosvalleyvizslas
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Re: How would you handle this trial situation

Post by Brazosvalleyvizslas » Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:01 pm

A. You can't judge what you can't see so benefit goes to the dog.
B. If it was seen that the dog pointed then relocated on his own accord and flushed the bird then he is picked up.

This is only based on if I'm understanding the scenarios. Hard to say if you aren't there and many variables exist.

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Re: How would you handle this trial situation

Post by Saddle » Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:31 pm

I'm of the opinon Greg that you can't judge under assumptions. I don't think you can handle that way either. If I show up and my dog is standing like described above I would dismount and make a good flusing attempt. IMO a good judge would ride up with you and if he sees the bird in the open field will instruct the handler as to the where abouts of said bird so that it may be flushed so we can carry on.

If I'm judging and I see the events unfold I am of the opinion that just by going on what you described that this dog did nothing wrong. He pointed scent and wasn't sure. He made an attempt to relocate and the bird popped not because of his relocation but on its own. If my handler rides up I tell him where the bird is, he works it and if all is in order we carry on forward to regain the front.
Last edited by Saddle on Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dan v
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Re: How would you handle this trial situation

Post by dan v » Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:33 pm

That looks alot like the "firing line" at Portage.

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Re: How would you handle this trial situation

Post by slistoe » Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:34 pm

Judge:
A- handler works bird and dog has find
B- dog is aware of presence of bird and causes it to flush with movement (because of improper use of wind). Dog is out of contention.

Handler:
A- Assume dog may have another bird in bush - work the one in the field and collar dog away.
B. Work the bird in the field and collar your dog away.

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Re: How would you handle this trial situation

Post by Saddle » Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:45 pm

slistoe wrote:Judge:
B- dog is aware of presence of bird and causes it to flush with movement (because of improper use of wind). Dog is out of contention.

To me this is negative judging and looking for a reason to throw a dog out.

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Re: How would you handle this trial situation

Post by slistoe » Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:51 pm

Saddle wrote:
slistoe wrote:Judge:
B- dog is aware of presence of bird and causes it to flush with movement (because of improper use of wind). Dog is out of contention.

To me this is negative judging and looking for a reason to throw a dog out.
If the scenario is as described the dog was not in contention anyway. The dog was unaware of the wind and working the tree line on the wrong side. Simply running an edge doesn't cut any mustard with me - the dog better be hunting the edge.

As to the causing birds to flush - check out the Guidelines to Judicial Practice. I didn't make that up myself.

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Re: How would you handle this trial situation

Post by Sharon » Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:24 pm

"Dog is aware of presence of bird and causes it to flush with movement (because of improper use of wind). Dog is out of contention." quote

This is reality. This is how it is judged according to my experience.

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Re: How would you handle this trial situation

Post by PntrRookie » Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:53 pm

...He pointed scent and wasn't sure. He made an attempt to relocate and the bird popped not because of his relocation but on its own...he works it and if all is in order we carry on forward to regain the front.
Yep that is exactly what we decided and did. Even said if I the handler see the bird as I dismount, I go right to the field (never go to the dog), flush, fire, collar dog and move on.
That looks alot like the "firing line" at Portage.
Sure does but isn't... :)

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mudhunter
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Re: How would you handle this trial situation

Post by mudhunter » Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:33 pm

Why was he hunting the wrong side of the edge in the first place??

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Re: How would you handle this trial situation

Post by Stoneface » Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:52 pm

I'm not sure if this is a trial dog or what, or even what the rules would judge if a dog establishes point on old scent and the handler never calls point. Either way, I think that's what happened here. The dog didn't actually scent the bird, he scented old scent so he stopped. Then he worked on, cautious not to bump the bird because he didn't know where it was and was looking for fresh scent. When he was was beyond the bird, the bird flushed and the dog doubled back and came into the scent from where the bird had flushed, and he came into it crosswind, so he pointed the scent that was fresh in the air from where the bird had just left. He knew there was a bird in the area, but he had no idea where... or even if they were still there. Depending on the point of the training session, I would have either (1) released the dog to work work the ground a little and realize the bird wasn't there (a dog needs to be acclimated with the difference in good and old scent) then send the dog on and if he finds the bird, so be it, but if he moves on then all the better. Otherwise, I would (2) work the dog off the bird, take him in a big circle and work him right into the bird again.

The biggest mistake I think a lot of people make with their bird work is that they want to work every bird they release for their dog. When I've turned out birds and the scenting conditions are poor or whatever, I don't force it. If the dog doesn't come on the bird on their own I'll just go on. Maybe come back to it once, but won't push it. I don't want the dog to rely on my to show them where birds are and that's what you get if you handle a dog RIGHT to a bird every time. This really isn't pertinent to your question, but I'll add it at no additional charge. ;)

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PntrRookie
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Re: How would you handle this trial situation

Post by PntrRookie » Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:28 am

mudhunter wrote:Why was he hunting the wrong side of the edge in the first place??
Ok Guys (and gals) he was in the tree line pointed...sure he may have casted through it while working the scent but was NOT running the whole tree line on the opposite side. That tree line is approx 3/4 mile long and NOT our property. He was NOT on the "other side". That is not the point of this discussion...carry on.

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Re: How would you handle this trial situation

Post by RayGubernat » Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:58 am

PntrRookie wrote:
Untitled-1.jpg
We ran dogs yesterday and this is what happened...in this order. Wind is noted as the big white arrow.

1. Dog is running right to left in the middle to top edge of the tree line.
2. Goes on point in the tree line at point D1 facing straight to the left (past B1 where we later determine the bird "was")
3. Handler is NOT there - dog relocates himself (wiggly white line) and hunts slowly forward (going straight left).
4. BEFORE the dog makes the turn back to the right, the bird flushes - from B1 - on its own behind the dog and lands in the open field B2. Dog NEVER saw it.
5. Dog continues left and comes back to the right and establishes point at spot D2 - looking toward the top of the picture - NOT where the bird now sits.
6. You arrive to work the find...

What would you do if you are the judge...
A. and did not see what happened but see the bird in the open field OR
B. did see what happened

What would you do if you are the handler...
A. and did not see what happened but see the bird in the open field OR
B. and did see what happened

Cool thing was I was running with a Pro and he stopped everything and made us decide what we would do. Sure helped being green to hear it from someone who has been trialing for 20 years.

The judge part is pretty straightforward to me. If A, you let the scenario unfold as it does and judge what you do see. The judge has no burning obligation to the handler to say they see a bird here there or anywhere and probably should not. That is for the handler or scout to figure out.

If B, the dog may or may not have seen the bird fly or may or may not have caused it to fly. Not a knockout infraction, in either case, becasue once again, you, the judge are not absolutely sure...but no matter what...that is NOT a quality piece of work and the dog did not help themselves.

If I were handling and A - only saw the bird in the open field, I would go to where the dog was pointed and flush. Absent knowledge of what transpired you gotta go with the one with the nose. If you don't trust your dog...what the heck are you doing out there? If the stand was an unproductive, as it probably will be, I would collar the dog and move on, leaving the bird in the open field alone. If i saw the bird there, the judges did too, and roading a dog into a bird never looks good and often turns out really bad.

If B, I would ask the judge if we were still OK and if so, I would collar the dog and get the heck out of there. If the judge wrinkled their nose or otherwise gave me a negative sign...I would thank the judge and put the dog on a rope.



RayG

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