Gun Dog Forum

Just looking for opinions if I'm in the right or wrong on this one. Two weeks ago I had to get a cesarean section done upon having a stuck puppy at home and had two more dead ones removed surgically. $865 spent not including the x rays I had spent $185 on the week before to check on the pups. Took her home with prescriptions and a few care instructions. Six day's later I notice some fat or mammary tissue coming out through the half hitch stitches. This is 9 pm and immediately call my vet and get his answering service and tell them of the emergency he refuses to talk to me and claims he is not allowed to operate on small animals after hours so the operator refers me to the local pet ER which I get voicemail at also. My dogs not bleeding and just a little blood tainted fluid is barely seeping so I clean her up with saline. The next morning blood is all over and more is hanging out. I take her back to the vets office as soon as they open and I'm informed that I have to pay again to have her repaired. The vet and I go back and forth about the charges and asks me where's her collar? I state I took it off her for possible swelling. We argue a little more and he's saying he's a business man and can't work for free. Then finally gives in and says he has a reputation so he will work for free but I need to pay for medications. I say no problem it was $60 last time. He returns with its a lot more than that the sutures alone are $20 per pack. He then tells e when I take my car to a mechanic I have to pay for parts. I reiterate that I already paid for parts. Her spleen is hanging out now nd blood is everywhere. So he says to his techs to stop that the are not doing it and asks what I'm going to do with her so I say I'm putting her down. he takes off to the other room. We load her back in the kennel and Then into my truck. I drove two blocks to another vets office who tells me he thinks he can fix her. two hours later I get a call from the new vets office that she was severely infected but is recovering and should be fine. I then call the original vet and have his Secretary let him know that the dog is at the new vets and I'm giving him the option to take care of the bill. He states he offers his laor for free and refuses the bill.

about the collar he referred to but dropped the subject. should she have been wearing an Elizabethan collar? And he dropped the subject when he realized he may implicate his office by not issuing or suggesting one?

Who's bill is this new one?

Is a half hitch suture common on this type procedure?

Thanks for any advice

The entire episode should be documented in writing and a turned over to your state regulatory board.

and have an attorney send a nice letter demanding payment.

I don't have the "VET" experience...yet!

But as a business owner I can say this. Two situations you have presented to us and I will just transfer them to personal experiences.

Situation 1- I go to a house to remove two bats from a bedroom. I explain on the phone to the home owner that there is no guarantee I will be able to find them. Upon arrival I find and remove one. At 9:30pm that night I get a call saying the other one is now flying around. I tell them I won't charge them an emergency after hours call since I was already there but will just charge them a normal service call (1/3 the cost of an emergency call). Customer has a fit and refuses to pay so I turn around and go back home.

I was willing to solve the problem but wasn't willing to do it for free. Time and money had to be a factor. It sounded like he was willing to do the labor but wanted you to pay for materials. I honestly don't think that was too unreasonable. It sounded like you were willing to do that also. I really think the fact he wouldn't help that night carried over to the next morning and the situation was doomed from the time you loaded your dog in the car.

Situation 2- I go to a house to do a job and when I arrive I find out a previous company was their and didn't fix the problem. I fix the problem and leave my bill. It is on the customer to pay me and fight to get the other company to pay them back. The customer now knows to never use that other company again and will tell everyone they know the same. Lesson learned.

It sounds like the new vet could be a better fit. Maybe it is a blessing and a lesson learned. If the vet wasn't willing to even talk to you the night of the incident I don't really think you want that vet anyways.

Nate K wrote:I don't have the "VET" experience...yet!

But as a business owner I can say this. Two situations you have presented to us and I will just transfer them to personal experiences.

Situation 1- I go to a house to remove two bats from a bedroom. I explain on the phone to the home owner that there is no guarantee I will be able to find them. Upon arrival I find and remove one. At 9:30pm that night I get a call saying the other one is now flying around. I tell them I won't charge them an emergency after hours call since I was already there but will just charge them a normal service call (1/3 the cost of an emergency call). Customer has a fit and refuses to pay so I turn around and go back home.

I was willing to solve the problem but wasn't willing to do it for free. Time and money had to be a factor. It sounded like he was willing to do the labor but wanted you to pay for materials. I honestly don't think that was too unreasonable. It sounded like you were willing to do that also. I really think the fact he wouldn't help that night carried over to the next morning and the situation was doomed from the time you loaded your dog in the car.

Situation 2- I go to a house to do a job and when I arrive I find out a previous company was their and didn't fix the problem. I fix the problem and leave my bill. It is on the customer to pay me and fight to get the other company to pay them back. The customer now knows to never use that other company again and will tell everyone they know the same. Lesson learned.

It sounds like the new vet could be a better fit. Maybe it is a blessing and a lesson learned. If the vet wasn't willing to even talk to you the night of the incident I don't really think you want that vet anyways.

Great Post......Don

Here are a few photos of the dog in question.

Vision wrote:and have an attorney send a nice letter demanding payment.

+1 That is really bad and his mistake. I would definitely talk to a lawyer an get all your money back and pay for the attorney!! Document everything with witnesses and have them sign and date it. That is awful and I hope your dog is doing better.

Mark I will tell you we had a similar situation here the last few weeks. We take the Mastiff that my finance' rescued in to be spayed and to have her stomach tacked to her abdominal wall to prevent stomach torsion. Long story short dog comes home and is normal for a day or so. Two days post surgery she is very restless and will not lay down. Back to the vet we go, this is a vet hospital with an ICU section and they admit her immediately to ICU. This was a Friday evening and apparently they did not do much until Monday, by that time they discovered that while doing the stomach procedure they punctured her stomach and she had been leaking stomach acid for several days. As you can imagine she developed a severe infection and the acid was having a major affect on her liver and kidneys. A few days later they discovered that she had developed MRSA staff. Five surgerys and 15 days in dog ICU and she is back home and seems to be on her way to recovery.

The difference in our vet and your vet is the night we took her in we signed a form that stated the vet would be covering all of the additional expenses and they did. We got a print out of instructions for care when she got home and a breakdown of everything that was done. The vet bill would have been $11,350 had we been billed.

Pay the new bill, and have an attorney contact the old vet.

You don't pay the hospital to open you back up when they forgot a sponge in your abdomen from a prior surgery do you? No you paid for the first surgery... They retrieve the sponge for free because it was THEIR mistake. Then they pray you STILL don't sue after they did it for free.

You really don't know if the old vet made any mistakes though, it could be a normal complication that happened after and was included in paperwork waivers...

Ask the new vet to be very detailed in their charting about what s/he found when "fixing" the dog. May help if things get out of hand and you end up in court.

I would find a new vet. I have never sued anyone in my life but I think I would speak to a lawyer if this happened to one of my dogs,

For how long had you been a customer of the old vet?

Cinna dislocated her hip back in October and I had it reset and went about my way. It popped back out. I talked to the vet and he suggested a newer surgery to have a "toggle" put in. Apparently, it's a monofilament ligament - like 100-pound test line - that draws the femurial head into the socket and holds it there. We had it in and she was doing GREAT. About two weeks ago I get home and she's limping again so I take her back to the vet and he offers to redo everything and just "requested" that I "help" pay for med. That's a $700 surgery that he redid for free and didn't even require that I pay for meds, just asked. He's a good ol' boy and a square-shooter.

I think your first vet was totally wrong and a guy that can turn away a dog like that has no business being a vet in the first place. Also, I really think it's great that you manned up and forked out the money to take care of your dog. A lot of people would have just put her down. I really admire that.

a guy that can turn away a dog like that has no business being a vet in the first place.

Couldn't agree more.

Holy Lordy..... Where do I start. I cannot believe you were able to hold it together after some of the assinine statements this guy made. He is a business man? What about a doctor! As soon as he said that I think I would have packed my dog up to leave. He obviously had no interest in his professional responsibility to the animal.

I would run with some of the other advise given: State adivsory board, pay the second vet out right, contact an attorney. The only part that sucks about the litigation piece is that you are probably not going to win more than a moral victory.

I hope you dog comes out ok!

Thank you all for the great input and advice. It really reaffirms my stance on the incident. I was trying to keep a clear head last Friday morning and make a good decision with the fate of my girl.

The new vet has been great with followup calls on her progress. She is ready to be picked up now on Monday morning and I will.learn more.

My regular old vet is semi- retired from his practice and is just doing small stuff. He no longer has a staff or radiology equipment. So that's why I tried the businessman who's supposed to be the reproduction specialist for my area. It was initially a good way to talk with him about some frozen semen breedings I had thought about.

I do plan on turning it in to the regulatory board as Casey suggested. I have never taken anyone to court before but I'm definitely looking into this one.

Thanks Coop for posting the picture's from the night before and the morning after.

Mark

i hope your dog is gonig to be ok
cc

Red wrote:

a guy that can turn away a dog like that has no business being a vet in the first place.

Couldn't agree more.

X 1000! Keep us updated on your pup.

I have had some fantastic dogs over the years and couldnt ever imagine spending the kind of money that has been thrown around here. :roll:

Bird Dog 67 wrote:

Red wrote:

a guy that can turn away a dog like that has no business being a vet in the first place.

Couldn't agree more.

X 1000! Keep us updated on your pup.

X2 I would file a formal complaint with the state veterinary board. My vet sits on the board here, and they take this kind of stuff serious.( at least here). The vets I know do it because they love it. If he wanted to make a lot of money he should have been a brain surgeon.

Legal fees are cheap, specially because the amount is low. At least in ca its $25. Small claims = no attorney.

Man that sucks. I would say it is his baby.
What was breeding that you made?

Mike

I too would file a complaint with the vet board. After they weighed in I would decide whether or not to take legal action.
Good luck.

We have a vet around where i live that has killed multiple animals during neuter and spays, we found out the hard way when my parents cat came back after getting spayed and she started acting all wierd, almost like she was drunk. Took her to my vet because their vet said nothing was wrong with her and rushed us out of the office. My vet opened her up and found that they had not completed the stitching inside that cat. They took a statement from my vet and the bill to their vet, he said that since they had it done somewhere else he would not be responsible. Turns out if you take this kind of story to a local news paper or tv channel they will run it, then the police will investigate for animal cruelty. If i was you I would sue this man for all he is worth, and then i would ruin his name around town. But that is just me.

I would be furious beyond belief. Definitely would want to do something that would make him regret his behavior.I'm not one for fighting fire with fire, but those pictures say it all.

Your pictures would put me over the edge of being reasonable. I cannot imagine anyone that would deny that they made a mistake when the dog looks like that. There would definitely be a phone call to an attorney, vet board and the local newspaper. That being said I hope your dog is alright and your pocketbook can sustain the additional blow.

gotpointers wrote:Just looking for opinions if I'm in the right or wrong on this one. Two weeks ago I had to get a cesarean section done upon having a stuck puppy at home and had two more dead ones removed surgically. $865 spent not including the x rays I had spent $185 on the week before to check on the pups. Took her home with prescriptions and a few care instructions.

gotpointers wrote:asks me where's her collar? I state I took it off her for possible swelling.

I read this group of information to say that the C-section was done, and the dog was sent home with a collar to keep it from chewing on the stitches. Then you took the collar off at some point. If that's the case, you are in the wrong all the way around because that is what led to the whole second scenario and you should not have asked for the Vet to cover any of it as you were the one at fault.

gotpointers wrote: We argue a little more and he's saying he's a business man and can't work for free. Then finally gives in and says he has a reputation so he will work for free but I need to pay for medications. I say no problem it was $60 last time. He returns with its a lot more than that the sutures alone are $20 per pack. So he says to his techs to stop that the are not doing it and asks what I'm going to do with her so I say I'm putting her down. he takes off to the other room. We load her back in the kennel and Then into my truck. I drove two blocks to another vets office who tells me he thinks he can fix her. two hours later I get a call from the new vets office that she was severely infected but is recovering and should be fine. I then call the original vet and have his Secretary let him know that the dog is at the new vets and I'm giving him the option to take care of the bill. He states he offers his laor for free and refuses the bill.

So you agreed to pay for the the medications and he tells his staff to stop what they are doing??? Something is missing here. Did you balk at the higher price of medications or something to cause him to tell his tech's. to stop???

Also, you state that you are going to put her down so the Vet takes you at your word and ends the conversation. At the very most you might be able to recover the euthanasia cost but you terminate your right to hold the old vet responsible for anything else by this statement. If you had said that you were going to another vet, he would have had the opportunity to re-extend his offer. Even if he had and you refused it, I don't see how he would be responsible for the other Vets bill.

gotpointers wrote:about the collar he referred to but dropped the subject. should she have been wearing an Elizabethan collar?

Yes, she should have been wearing the collar...

gotpointers wrote:And he dropped the subject when he realized he may implicate his office by not issuing or suggesting one?

This statement conflicts with one earlier where he asked about the collar and you said "I took it off".

Picking your recount apart as will likely be done in court, there are enough holes that I would conclude YOU owe based on what I have highlighted above. It is possible that you have stated something you didn't mean or that you have omitted some information that would explain these contradictions, but based on solely what you have provided, I would lean to take the original Vet's side.

I'm just trying to prepare you for the type of questions you will need to be able to answer should you decide to go to court.

You have not stated anything that the Vet did negligently which led to you dog's unfortunate situation. That is what you will have to state and prove if you expect to win in court. From what I read, the only thing you are saying he did wrong was to try to charge you more than you think he should have. What you will need to provide is exactly what he did that caused your dog to bust it's stitches.

Thanks for the well wishes, she's home now and doing great. I'm another 800 lighter but her stitches look completely different than the last big half hitches that were over an inch apart. I have lots of pictures now gathered up for whatever comes next.

topher40 wrote:I have had some fantastic dogs over the years and couldnt ever imagine spending the kind of money that has been thrown around here. :roll:

She's my old girl and I love her. I don't want to be the old guy spending 10,000 on a cat who's terminal. There was a good chance according to the vet that live pups could be delivered and if not we can try again. The second round of repairs I felt it was not my or her fault that a shoddy job was done the first time.

[quote="birdogg42"]Man that sucks. I would say it is his baby.
What was breeding that you made?

Mike[/quote

You are absolutely right she is my baby. I don't know of any other Miller's White Powder and Wiggins miss Sammie daughters that I could buy Had I lost her. I thought long and hard about her breeding and was able to swap for a White Powder son. Her next round I was hopeful to use Wild Agin or Wind n Rain semen if I could find it. This was the pedigree for the lost litter

http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=4531

My dogs are my life. I would not have been there and argued one second with the jack "bleep"! I would probably go back down and overhaul him with a crowbar. I know vet's make mistakes just like everyone but never should it get to that!

gotpointers wrote:

birdogg42 wrote:Man that sucks. I would say it is his baby.
What was breeding that you made?

Mike[/quote

You are absolutely right she is my baby. I don't know of any other Miller's White Powder and Wiggins miss Sammie daughters that I could buy Had I lost her. I thought long and hard about her breeding and was able to swap for a White Powder son. Her next round I was hopeful to use Wild Agin or Wind n Rain semen if I could find it. This was the pedigree for the lost litter

http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=4531

I meant the vet should be liable. I wasn't knocking you Mark.

Mike

No problem Mike, I didn't take it that way whatsoever.

Kmack wrote:

gotpointers wrote:Just looking for opinions if I'm in the right or wrong on this one. Two weeks ago I had to get a cesarean section done upon having a stuck puppy at home and had two more dead ones removed surgically. $865 spent not including the x rays I had spent $185 on the week before to check on the pups. Took her home with prescriptions and a few care instructions.

gotpointers wrote:asks me where's her collar? I state I took it off her for possible swelling.

I read this group of information to say that the C-section was done, and the dog was sent home with a collar to keep it from chewing on the stitches. Then you took the collar off at some point. If that's the case, you are in the wrong all the way around because that is what led to the whole second scenario and you should not have asked for the Vet to cover any of it as you were the one at fault.

gotpointers wrote: We argue a little more and he's saying he's a business man and can't work for free. Then finally gives in and says he has a reputation so he will work for free but I need to pay for medications. I say no problem it was $60 last time. He returns with its a lot more than that the sutures alone are $20 per pack. So he says to his techs to stop that the are not doing it and asks what I'm going to do with her so I say I'm putting her down. he takes off to the other room. We load her back in the kennel and Then into my truck. I drove two blocks to another vets office who tells me he thinks he can fix her. two hours later I get a call from the new vets office that she was severely infected but is recovering and should be fine. I then call the original vet and have his Secretary let him know that the dog is at the new vets and I'm giving him the option to take care of the bill. He states he offers his laor for free and refuses the bill.

So you agreed to pay for the the medications and he tells his staff to stop what they are doing??? Something is missing here. Did you balk at the higher price of medications or something to cause him to tell his tech's. to stop???

Also, you state that you are going to put her down so the Vet takes you at your word and ends the conversation. At the very most you might be able to recover the euthanasia cost but you terminate your right to hold the old vet responsible for anything else by this statement. If you had said that you were going to another vet, he would have had the opportunity to re-extend his offer. Even if he had and you refused it, I don't see how he would be responsible for the other Vets bill.

gotpointers wrote:about the collar he referred to but dropped the subject. should she have been wearing an Elizabethan collar?

Yes, she should have been wearing the collar...

gotpointers wrote:And he dropped the subject when he realized he may implicate his office by not issuing or suggesting one?

This statement conflicts with one earlier where he asked about the collar and you said "I took it off".

Picking your recount apart as will likely be done in court, there are enough holes that I would conclude YOU owe based on what I have highlighted above. It is possible that you have stated something you didn't mean or that you have omitted some information that would explain these contradictions, but based on solely what you have provided, I would lean to take the original Vet's side.

I'm just trying to prepare you for the type of questions you will need to be able to answer should you decide to go to court.

You have not stated anything that the Vet did negligently which led to you dog's unfortunate situation. That is what you will have to state and prove if you expect to win in court. From what I read, the only thing you are saying he did wrong was to try to charge you more than you think he should have. What you will need to provide is exactly what he did that caused your dog to bust it's stitches.

I took off her ID collar that's it. Never saw her with any other type of collar.

OK, we can rule out your actipns being at fault. Now we're left with 2 possible paths. One os that the dog chewed the stitches and the vet should have foreseen this potential and sent you home witha prptective collar or two, the vet did a poor job of sewing her up and the stitches came out on there own.

Your next step would be to get several different vets to support the claim that a reasonable vet wpuld have sent the dog home collared and/or that it is highly unlikely that correctly sewn stitching wpuld come loose on its'own.

It sounds like you might have a good case to show the vet at fault The next step for ypu will be to prove that you were justified to refuse his offer to make things right and have a different vet perform the work. I am going to suggest that the original vets'offer wad a reasonable offer to make things right and your turning it down and telling him you were gpong to put the dog down was unreasonable. Before you have any chance to recover your expenses, you will have to make this case. Only if you can convince the judge of this will you stand a chance.

How old is she on paper now? If you breed her to Last Knight id take all you want sell

If that happened to me I'd probably be sitting in jail for battery and assault charges and that vet would need stitches of his own