Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

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Stoneface
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Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by Stoneface » Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:28 pm

Does anyone know of any field-bred Pointers who has or throws good shoulders and chest depth (to the point of the elbows)? I only personally know of two dogs around now that meet this, but from some of the photos of the dogs Ferel Miller owned had good front ends. Besides that it seems like deep chests and good fronts are almost totally non-existent in the breed.

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by SCT » Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:33 pm

Good fronts???? You mean 45 degree angles??? Because if you do it's bunk.

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by Stoneface » Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:46 pm

I'm in the air over a true 90' angle from scapular spine to humorous is optimal, but there is no doubt that the stilt-looking front ends most Pointers are dressed with today are no where near as functional as something with more hinge to them.

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by Cajun Casey » Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:05 pm

Just about anything The Company puts on the ground has a good front.

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by fourseasons » Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:07 pm

Take a look at the photo of my FT dog in my avatar - he's a nicely-balanced dog (moderate angles front/rear), though somewhat wide at the elbows. As the shoulder assembly is held on via muscle vs. skeleton some field-bred dogs do tend to 'go wide' when worked/muscled up at a young age. This dog's sire was AKC all-pointing breed national champion, and his full brother also won that same title a few years later - however those dogs are out of AF lines cross registered w. AKC. Interesting, but I notice lots of straight upper arm assemblies in the show-bred AKC Pointers these days. Pounding/force on the shoulder assembly from foot to withers has to have some effect on a dog's long-term soundness.

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by dan v » Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:08 pm

Stoneface wrote:I'm in the air over a true 90' angle from scapular spine to humorous is optimal, but there is no doubt that the stilt-looking front ends most Pointers are dressed with today are no where near as functional as something with more hinge to them.
Pretty is as pretty does.

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by Stoneface » Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:42 pm

FourSeasons, do you have a listing of him on a website somewhere or a pedigree posted anywhere?

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by fourseasons » Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:14 pm

Dog's name is (AKC) V.I.P. Natural High/(AF) V.I.P. Naturally, w. June 06.
Pedigree: http://www.theoneweb.net/x/CutPedigree.htm
This was a repeat breeding of the litter that produced AKC Pointing Breed Gun Dog Champion 2009 (AKC) FC/AFC Archer's Black Powder "Kip",
sired by AKC Pointing Breed Gun Dog Champion 2006 (AKC) FC Covey Up Johnny.

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by Steve007 » Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:37 pm

Wyndancer wrote:
Stoneface wrote:I'm in the air over a true 90' angle from scapular spine to humorous is optimal, but there is no doubt that the stilt-looking front ends most Pointers are dressed with today are no where near as functional as something with more hinge to them.
Pretty is as pretty does.

The operative words by the well-educated stoneface are;
Pounding/force on the shoulder assembly from foot to withers has to have some effect on a dog's long-term soundness.
Many trialers think that because a young dog runs fast and wins in a 1-hour race, that means it is sound. Very shallow thinking. If it stays sound throughout a long life, that means a great deal, but a dog such as stoneface describes is most unlikely to do so. "Pretty does" doesn't mean winning a trial at a young age, except to the poorly-educated short term thinker who cares more about winning than about the dog. Which is absolutely NOT to suggest that you are one, wyndancer,as I know that's not the case. But many trialers are.

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by Stoneface » Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:14 pm

Steve, that's actually not what I said (was FourSeason), but is absolutely something I agree with. Besides that, I wasn't asking about "pretty," I was asking about functional form.

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by Wenaha » Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:30 pm

IMO, gait is far more important than theoretical canine geometry. Go watch some dogs run and apply your theories. And good luck.

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by SCT » Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:44 pm

Most of that "show" angulation was conceived by equine folks long ago. Equines spines are stiff compared to the flexible spine of a pointer. Look at Shadow Oak Bo, or any of the dogs he competed against at Ames recently. Field pointers were not designed to look good at a trot, like the way they are tested at a show. They are designed to gallop, and keep galloping for many hours. And, what does a deep chest have to do with movement? Do you think it adds to the bottom end to go all day?

Again, I would advise getting the book "Dog Locomotion and Gait Analysis" by Curtis Brown. Read it, everything you want to know about confirmation angles and gait is in there. It is full of excellent information by someone who was passionate about finding the truth.

Does this dog look to have restricted movement?

Image

Image

Image

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by Stoneface » Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:01 am

Steve, I'll get be sure and add that book to my library soon. But, have you read any other books on build, gait, movement and function? Puppy Puzzles, An Eye for a Dog or Dog in Action by McDowell Lyon? Dog in action is my favorite, An eye for a dog falls way short.

The dog you posted a photo of does look restricted to me. Look in the first photo. I don't know if that's him fully extended, but if it is then his elbows are tucked up under him too far. There shouldn't be as much bend at his elbows. I honestly think it's the photo, though. His back legs are starting to be recollect, so I imagine his front legs aren't fully extended, either.

This is my idea of a dog that is really fully-extended with his elbows not so far under him. Site hounds typically have straighter shoulders, but I like the way this dog lays out.

Image

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by slistoe » Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:19 am

Stoneface wrote:Besides that it seems like deep chests and good fronts are almost totally non-existent in the breed.
When you are talking about a breed that has the most overall ground application of all other bird dog breeds, perhaps it is not the conformation of the dogs that is non-existent here.

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by slistoe » Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:23 am

Stoneface wrote: The dog you posted a photo of does look restricted to me. Look in the first photo. I don't know if that's him fully extended, but if it is then his elbows are tucked up under him too far. There shouldn't be as much bend at his elbows. I honestly think it's the photo, though. His back legs are starting to be recollect, so I imagine his front legs aren't fully extended, either.

This is my idea of a dog that is really fully-extended with his elbows not so far under him. Site hounds typically have straighter shoulders, but I like the way this dog lays out.
So what you are saying is that the pointer has too much angulation and if he had straighter front shoulders as the greyhound does he could extend more forward.

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by KwikIrish » Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:43 am

Correct angle isn't what always makes a dog able to move properly. The whippet pictured is more than likely lacking in from angle, but what we do know from this picture is that he does have equally portioned scapula and upper arm.

Moving from the elbow vs moving from the shoulder IMO plays a huge facotor in soundness. One of the biggest winning dogs I have seen who had beautiful front structure moved from the elbow all day long. In that sense, I would breed to something with a lesser front if it moved better.

The first pointer picture shows a dog who is not fully extending in the front or rear. It could be the timing of the shot or the dog could just under utilize its self. The last picture where the dog looks to be fully extended in the rear shows a moment where the dog is not in full gait as its front is still tucked (perhaps he is propelling himself over the brush) so I can't use that picture to fairly evaluate his locomotion. I do however, like the middle picture. Good rear reach and he is actually using his front to drive off of in this portion of the gait. That is something our dogs can use more of.
The key to your goal, Rowdy, is finding the dog with the structure and the movement, as unfortunately as you and I are learning, they aren't always linked. Just my two cents.

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:59 am

I think that is one of the areas of conformation that Wehle worked on. The Elhew pointers do appear on the whole to have better fronts. The thing I don't like more than the straight shoulders which never appeared to be too bad are the elbows going east and west. This is where I see the biggest difference in the Elhew line. But you do need to see a dog move to see what is really going on, since as already stated some dogs seem to be able to compinsate for strustural abnormalicies.

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by SCT » Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:55 am

Stoneface wrote:Steve, I'll get be sure and add that book to my library soon. But, have you read any other books on build, gait, movement and function? Puppy Puzzles, An Eye for a Dog or Dog in Action by McDowell Lyon? Dog in action is my favorite, An eye for a dog falls way short.

The dog you posted a photo of does look restricted to me. Look in the first photo. I don't know if that's him fully extended, but if it is then his elbows are tucked up under him too far. There shouldn't be as much bend at his elbows. I honestly think it's the photo, though. His back legs are starting to be recollect, so I imagine his front legs aren't fully extended, either.

This is my idea of a dog that is really fully-extended with his elbows not so far under him. Site hounds typically have straighter shoulders, but I like the way this dog lays out.

Image
Actually Rowdy, she is not fully extended, and if you were to look closely you could see that. She's coming out of extension to land and shoot forward. Also notice she's in about 7" of snow. Pretty tough to get full speed when more than half your legs are in snow :D

I've got "puppy puzzle" video which I thought was good, but her book "Structure in Action" was so disappointing, I was surprised. Her knowledge of locomotion was far inferior to Brown's, IMO.

Wehle did a great job getting his dogs competing in shows. But, how many pure Elhew bred dogs have you seen running at Ames in the National Champion. I'm not trying to slight Elhew dogs, I've had plenty of them. I'm just saying that most of the dogs at the National all age level have fairly straight shoulders and not real deep chests, but are very strong, fast, and agile with tons of bottom. That doesn't mean it has to be your cup of tea, just sayin'. Maybe it just comes down to heart :P

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by Steve007 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:29 pm

Stoneface wrote:Steve, that's actually not what I said (was FourSeason), but is absolutely something I agree with. Besides that, I wasn't asking about "pretty," I was asking about functional form.

Of couese you were. Wyndancer brought up "pretty", implying that if a dog could hunt well short-term or win in a FT, it was inherently well-constructed. He knows better. Others do not.

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by dan v » Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:47 pm

Steve007 wrote:
Stoneface wrote:Steve, that's actually not what I said (was FourSeason), but is absolutely something I agree with. Besides that, I wasn't asking about "pretty," I was asking about functional form.

Of couese you were. Wyndancer brought up "pretty", implying that if a dog could hunt well short-term or win in a FT, it was inherently well-constructed. He knows better. Others do not.
I wish I had the time to expand on my thoughts, but the cycle time on the CNC limits the length of time I can be away.

The OP's question...in short. How can a deep chest, with the flaw of being narrow, be better than that of a moderate depth of chest of proper form? It can't.

Then to shoulders and rears. Now we haven't bred that many litters, but in the litters we have bred and in talking with other long time breeders, I believe the rear angles are much easier to change than the front angles are. Then again, I'm not smart enough, nor really want to peel the onion, on how xx angle on the front affects or requires xx rear angle, not how length of back fits into the equation either.

Select dogs that have the desired gait and get after it. There's more to it than that but alas...the machine waits for no man.

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by KwikIrish » Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:24 pm

Wyndancer wrote:
Steve007 wrote:
Stoneface wrote:Steve, that's actually not what I said (was FourSeason), but is absolutely something I agree with. Besides that, I wasn't asking about "pretty," I was asking about functional form.

Of couese you were. Wyndancer brought up "pretty", implying that if a dog could hunt well short-term or win in a FT, it was inherently well-constructed. He knows better. Others do not.
I wish I had the time to expand on my thoughts, but the cycle time on the CNC limits the length of time I can be away.

The OP's question...in short. How can a deep chest, with the flaw of being narrow, be better than that of a moderate depth of chest of proper form? It can't.

Then to shoulders and rears. Now we haven't bred that many litters, but in the litters we have bred and in talking with other long time breeders, I believe the rear angles are much easier to change than the front angles are. Then again, I'm not smart enough, nor really want to peel the onion, on how xx angle on the front affects or requires xx rear angle, not how length of back fits into the equation either.

Select dogs that have the desired gait and get after it. There's more to it than that but alas...the machine waits for no man.
I find this to be true.

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by dan v » Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:04 pm

Kwik,

Seeing you are in Irish, can you shed some light on bloat/torsion issues and how the thinking of chest type has an impact on it?

Thanks..Dan

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by tn red » Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:11 pm

Thoughts on this dog's build
Image

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by Cajun Casey » Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:20 pm

tn red wrote:Thoughts on this dog's build
Image
He is verging on overloading in the shoulders and is a touch short in the upper arm. If he carries much Fiddler blood, he could push out his elbows. Heck of a rear on him. If he doesn't make, you could always do weight pull! :)

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by tn red » Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:25 pm

Not my dog.Just a pic of one that IMO has more gait than build...

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by KwikIrish » Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:11 pm

Wyndancer wrote:Kwik,

Seeing you are in Irish, can you shed some light on bloat/torsion issues and how the thinking of chest type has an impact on it?

Thanks..Dan
It is our expierence that bloat is almost completely genetic. Key word almost. Deep chest or not, genetics are the biggest factor though bloat is the breed's general chest depth.
Their are lines in our breed where bloat runs rampant, never mind that their chests are more or less deep than ours, but I can say that the dogs that tend to bloat are not deeper or wider, but the length of their chest. The shorter dogs tend to have higher odds than the dogs with more length of chest. Breeders will tack the stomach of the dogs they keep as precautionary. Their feeding regiment is strict yet they are still fighting bloat.
We have had one bloat and he was 12 and a half. I won't complain.

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by Stoneface » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:20 pm

SCT, he just asked if he looked to have restricted movement. I think he did. In none of those photos did he show great extension. Whether he was restricted by his angles or by the snow, I don't know. He looks like a nice boy, though. I'd like to see a photo of him fully laid-out. And, I think you're right about Structure in Action. It sucked in the same way An Eye for a Dog sucked. They told you "what" to look for, but didn't tell you why that thing was better.

I want to make it clear to Kelli and everyone that I'm not trying to put out a feeler to try and track down a stud or anything. Just browsing the net and looking at photos I just haven't noticed many dogs that have nice fronts and deep chests. It's something I've almost turned into a craze. I'm looking for dogs that have both, but for the novelty. It's like they don't exist... at least you can't tell from the photos.

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by slistoe » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:57 pm

Stoneface wrote:It's like they don't exist... at least you can't tell from the photos.
Have you considered that the reason they may not exist is because they are structurally inferior? The dogs that can perform get bred and become the average standard.

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by SCT » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:14 pm

Rowdy, could you get me some photos of your pointers fully extended? You may have to take a few hundred photos, and that's if you can get them to fly across the ground like my little GIRL does. Right there she's averaging 11-13 mph on the garmin (partially because of snow depth), you should see her extend at 19-20 mph. Pretty tough to get perfect photos of that, but if I do you'll be the first to see it. Anyway, do you think speed has effect on extension? How fast do you think the whipit is going? What about the photo of the dog TnRed posted, how fast do you think he's moving?

I think if you look around you can find comparisons between Lyon's book and Brown's book. The one I found gave the nod to Curtis Brown's book over Lyon's and one other similar.

Here's a small drawing from Brown's book, hope it works

Image

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by KwikIrish » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:24 pm

Remember this thread, Rowdy? I like to go back and read it sometimes. I feel like I can always get more ideas from reading past conversations about this. Thanks for the topic. viewtopic.php?f=69&t=35666

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by KwikIrish » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:26 pm

Whippet is going about 40 mph. Can't answer the speed of the others! :)

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by SCT » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:29 pm

Now that explains a lot, thank you. That's kinda what my suspicions were. Actually I was thinking at least 30mph, 40mph.....holy crap!!!! No need for wings :D

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by SCT » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:38 pm

slistoe wrote:
Stoneface wrote:It's like they don't exist... at least you can't tell from the photos.
Have you considered that the reason they may not exist is because they are structurally inferior? The dogs that can perform get bred and become the average standard.
Excellent point slistoe!

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by KwikIrish » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:41 pm

SCT wrote:
slistoe wrote:
Stoneface wrote:It's like they don't exist... at least you can't tell from the photos.
Have you considered that the reason they may not exist is because they are structurally inferior? The dogs that can perform get bred and become the average standard.
Excellent point slistoe!
My idea is that if their fronts were balanced, they could have even more to give.

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by Allin13 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:42 pm

should look like this!!
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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by KwikIrish » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:48 pm

Allin13 wrote:should look like this!!
Who knew pointers came in that color combo?!

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by Allin13 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:50 pm

next thing at Ames!!

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by SCT » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:55 pm

That's not fully extended, right leg is too low :wink:

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by brad27 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:05 pm

My idea is that if their fronts were balanced, they could have even more to give.
if that were true wouldn't it be the average standard?

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by SCT » Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:09 pm

Kwik, are you saying that if the fronts had the same exact angles as the rears they would be more balanced? And that would give them more reach? I'm being sincere, not understanding your thoughts.

I would guess that more forward reach would offset front leg footfalls putting the rear too far forward and putting the dog on his face. Just a thought.

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by slistoe » Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:21 pm

SCT wrote:That's not fully extended, right leg is too low :wink:
I was thinking that it was just a very shallow chest making the legs look low.

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by Oscar » Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:36 am

Arguing with a friend who is very fond of European pointer we did not agree to the seem slightly angled our dogs. I next photos. My pointer Luna is the fastest pointer - 3 hours AA dog - I've ever had, and my labrador Nikon has the conformation I like in a Labrador, is 10 years old and has the confirmation I Like in a Lab , still quick as a young dog.
My lab in next pictures
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Nikon is by NFCH Eba and his mother is a CH Roughtraider daughter. .

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4 months



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Nikon extend .

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My pointer Luna Silver Shadow , his father supershadow by Joe Shadow and his mother by Silver Bullet.
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Other Luna
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Europe pointer - my friend dog-

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Hare
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Greyhound
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My weimaraner near 40 years ago he could outrun a hare !!! the only dog I haved he could.

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by Oscar » Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:10 am

Other pointers you know running

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My Lancelot point pepe grillo

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pepe grillo running

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Pepe grillo was a deep chest

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Very good working big running europe setter running
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HOrse running is very diferent.

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by Stoneface » Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:43 am

I have considered that the prototypical build and form is wrong. For example, they say a dog's elbow should be half the distance from the withers to the ground and the chest should reach to the point of the elbow. To me, this 50/50 call for proportion seems like it would make a dog bulky and give him extra baggage to carry around. Things like this just don't make sense to me. But, when I posted the original question on this thread I was not saying deep chest and and hard angles were better, I was asking if anyone knew any dogs that had/produced it. But, yeah, I think the more typical conformation of today could be 'better.' I can't think of ever hearing about anyone pitting a more contemporarily-dog with a more prototypically-built dog and seeing which outperforms the other. I also think it could be possible that today's popular bloodlines are peppered with blood from trial dogs and that trialers may have been very narrow in how they select their dogs for breeding. I mean, the trial folks are obsessed with range, speed, style. That seems to be about it. You hear stories all the time about such and such a dog who was the hardest thing to train, was the meanest cuss around, was dumb as a box of rocks, but boy you should have seem him fly and, whoa, did he go up high on both ends when he stacked up! Couldn't it be possible that we've bred dogs to run for and a half hour, hour or three hours instead of breeding them to hunt for a full day? I think these things are improtant, but I think there's more to it than this. I think it's entirely possible these dogs were possibly bred to have so much hear that it overcompensates for any lack in physique.

SCT, if you were trying to demonstrate unrestricted, optimal fronts then why in the world would you knowingly post a photo of a dog not entirely laid out? That doesn't make any sense to me. And, you really want to see any photos of my girls, they have terrible front ends. Moxy has all that heart that is typical in a Pointer, but her heart outruns her conformation. She looks lightning fast, going full-bore in the field until you see that turtle fly by her! She has the proverbial smoke-and-mirrors run down pat.

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by Stoneface » Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:47 am

Oscar, I really like the build on Pepe Grillo. Do you have any profile shots of him? I like the way a lot of those solid-white dogs look. I wonder if Ferel bred for chest and shoulders at all.

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by slistoe » Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:48 am

Stoneface wrote:She looks lightning fast, going full-bore in the field until you see that turtle fly by her! She has the proverbial smoke-and-mirrors run down pat.
Is she Shooting Dog breeding?

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by slistoe » Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:49 am

Stoneface wrote:I wonder if Ferel bred for chest and shoulders at all.
Not that anyone is qualified to speak for Ferrell, but I think he bred for performance - may the best dog win.

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by slistoe » Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:51 am

Stoneface wrote:Couldn't it be possible that we've bred dogs to run for and a half hour, hour or three hours instead of breeding them to hunt for a full day?
You have never owned a competitive dog have you?

I would never bet against a dog that was competitive at Ames in a month of Sundays worth of all day hunts against anyone's "all day hunting dog".

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by SCT » Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:32 am

Stoneface wrote:I have considered that the prototypical build and form is wrong. For example, they say a dog's elbow should be half the distance from the withers to the ground and the chest should reach to the point of the elbow. To me, this 50/50 call for proportion seems like it would make a dog bulky and give him extra baggage to carry around. Things like this just don't make sense to me. But, when I posted the original question on this thread I was not saying deep chest and and hard angles were better, I was asking if anyone knew any dogs that had/produced it. But, yeah, I think the more typical conformation of today could be 'better.' I can't think of ever hearing about anyone pitting a more contemporarily-dog with a more prototypically-built dog and seeing which outperforms the other. I also think it could be possible that today's popular bloodlines are peppered with blood from trial dogs and that trialers may have been very narrow in how they select their dogs for breeding. I mean, the trial folks are obsessed with range, speed, style. That seems to be about it. You hear stories all the time about such and such a dog who was the hardest thing to train, was the meanest cuss around, was dumb as a box of rocks, but boy you should have seem him fly and, whoa, did he go up high on both ends when he stacked up! Couldn't it be possible that we've bred dogs to run for and a half hour, hour or three hours instead of breeding them to hunt for a full day? I think these things are improtant, but I think there's more to it than this. I think it's entirely possible these dogs were possibly bred to have so much hear that it overcompensates for any lack in physique.

SCT, if you were trying to demonstrate unrestricted, optimal fronts then why in the world would you knowingly post a photo of a dog not entirely laid out? That doesn't make any sense to me. And, you really want to see any photos of my girls, they have terrible front ends. Moxy has all that heart that is typical in a Pointer, but her heart outruns her conformation. She looks lightning fast, going full-bore in the field until you see that turtle fly by her! She has the proverbial smoke-and-mirrors run down pat.
Like I said, it's tough getting good photos and if you were to interpret the photo I did post you'd notice that she is quartering slightly towards the viewer. If she were completely perpendicular like some of the great photos posted by Oscar, you would see her forelegs are correct.

You didn't say the angled front ends were better, but you kept mentioning "good fronts" and how they seem to be non-existent. How should we interpret your comments? I'm still asking you, what is your definition of "good fronts"?????????????

Also, if your pointers had "terrible fronts" then let's see them. What makes them terrible? I just want to know the answer to those two questions and photos might help to describe what you're saying. Also, if your pointers have terrible fronts why would you place them as the base of your breeding project?? I'm not being sarcastic, my questions are sincere.

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Re: Fore-Angulation/Shoulders in Pointers.

Post by SCT » Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:47 am

Rowdy, I don't know if this will answer your other question but most pointers have a 1.22 leg length to chest depth. Cheetahs 1.3, doberman 1.13. This is well explained in Browns book and pertains to galloping vs trotting as well as other aspects.

Steve

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