could another breed run the nat champ?

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could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by orbirdhunter » Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:20 pm

A couple comments on the recent national championship made me ponder this question? Could another breed of dog besides setters and ep's actually make the 3hr grind? From a physical standpoint I wonder if the right gsp could make the run, or possibly even possibly a vizsla. Taking out the fact that they have to qualify etc.
It wouldn't shock me if sometime in the upcoming years if a gsp qualifies...

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by jimbo&rooster » Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:47 pm

Well if a setter can do it.......


In all seriousness, I would say that a GSP or possibly the right V "might" be able to qualify and run but I dont think you will ever see a short tailed dog on the steps. One issue is to qualify, a dog of any breed has to beat out alot of pointers and several setters and just by sheer numbers, I would say that qualifying anything other than a setter or pointer would be a longshot. Aside from politics and BS, I would say that it would take a truely special GSP or other Non pointer/setter, to run the race.

Jim

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by Allin13 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:59 pm

I think it takes a tail to run there.

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by UpNorthHuntin » Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:03 pm

Allin13 wrote:I think it takes a tail to run there.
+1

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by Winchey » Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:15 pm

Ya you would know upnorth.

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by dan v » Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:34 pm

Image

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by brad27 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:43 pm


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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by Cajun Casey » Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:42 pm

REEEEEEEEdundant.

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by UpNorthHuntin » Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:53 pm

Winchey wrote:Ya you would know upnorth.
Well Winchey, I have been listening to everyone tell me that now for months..... I thought you would be happy that I finally agree :P

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by Winchey » Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:14 pm

No, I have no idea how you have enough of an opinion to agree or disagree with anyone.

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by UpNorthHuntin » Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:16 pm

Winchey wrote:No, I have no idea how you have enough of an opinion to agree or disagree with anyone.
And why is that, because I have never personnaly been to Ames.... Is that the prerequisite for someone to have an opinion, you have to have personnaly experienced it first hand? You people crack me up....

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by Wenaha » Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:31 pm

Possible, not probable. The Ames course calls for a Shooting Dog type race, qualifying requires traditional AA wins at very competitive qualifying trials. This means beating maybe 100 or more of the best pointers and setters. But assuming that is done, I don't see why another breed (extraordinarily conditioned) couldn't run the NC course.

I do not believe that politics' play a role in the judging of the NC. Even so, a dog of any breed has to beat about 40 of the finest AA pointers and setters in the country to win... nearly impossible.
Last edited by Wenaha on Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by Winchey » Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:32 pm

Well I would expect that you have seen top AA GSP's and or Britts compete, and the top AA pointers and setters compete.

Or atleast have some sort of fact to back yourself up.

There is no pre-requisite for an opinion, I just saying the ones you have expressed so far are not worth crap. I would be just as well served if I just asked random people at the mall the same question.

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by UpNorthHuntin » Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:38 pm

Winchey wrote:Well I would expect that you have seen top AA GSP's and or Britts compete, and the top AA pointers and setters compete.

Or atleast have some sort of fact to back yourself up.

There is no pre-requisite for an opinion, I just saying the ones you have expressed so far are not worth crap. I would be just as well served if I just asked random people at the mall the same question.
So when you ask those "random" people, would you tell them their opinion wasn't worth crap either. Saying that it takes a long tail dog to win at AMES isn't freakin rocket science Winchey. In the last 40 years since a Setter won it, how many other breeds have won the Championship. I was just stating the obvious, not actually even my opinion. I got news for you... Training dogs isn't rocket science either. I became part of this forum to maybe learn a few new tricks and enjoy training my own dog. Getting pretty sick of the constant Knowit all Rhetoric that comes from the forum though. So I will be signing off. Congratulations to all of you know-it-all trainers/owners out there for continuing to "grow your sport."

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by Sharon » Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:40 pm

Wyndancer wrote:Image

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by Winchey » Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:44 pm

We have enough whiners already, and your skin is to thin for you to last anyway.

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by Allin13 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:07 pm

I dont think any other dog is classy enough!

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by cmc274 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:06 pm

Possibly an orange or lemon & white shorthair.

In all honesty, it would be more beneficial for other breeds to be more worried about closed breed endurance stakes before venturing outside of their comfort level.

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by Cajun Casey » Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:13 pm

There are half a dozen shorthairs that could do it.

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by orbirdhunter » Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:20 pm

What I meant was more from a physical point of view. Not whether something else could qualify or win....but rather would any other breeds have the physical capabilities to make that kind of 3hr run..athletically speaking....
I have never been to ames, I have only seen a couple of 1hr af braces....just trying to picture it from a physical standpoint of what the dogs were doing.....
As a example I know that my britt from a physical standpoint couldn't do it...too small chest, too short legs, too short strided..

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by topher40 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:56 pm

Casey-
Then why dont those few shorthairs show up?

Must not be the interest equal to what every board says there is, :wink:

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by slistoe » Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:17 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:There are half a dozen shorthairs that could do it.
That many? Have there ever been any shorthairs compete in a 3 hr stake at any level of competition?

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by slistoe » Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:21 pm

Allin13 wrote:I think it takes a tail to run there.
There have been a couple of shorthairs that have been 1/2 qualified. I think that if their owners actually cared ( I assume they didn't care enough because they didn't travel the country from end to end entering every qualifying stake there is to eke out the 2 wins necessary) there would be a better chance that one of those dogs might have made it to the entry level - then, and only then, would we know if there were any shorthairs that would stand a chance of finishing the 3 hours. As for the inference about the "style", I would think that what it takes to win is a dog with more birds and a stronger ground race than the other dogs competing.

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by Cajun Casey » Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:26 pm

topher40 wrote:Casey-
Then why dont those few shorthairs show up?

Must not be the interest equal to what every board says there is, :wink:
Tony Stewart doesn't run Formula. Doesn't mean he couldn't win.

Getting to that particular level means a certain degree of preparation for both dog and handler. Why go there if you are extremely successful elsewhere?

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by topher40 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:39 pm

Exactly Casey, there isnt interest from the folks that actually have a dog that can qualify. The only interest is from the armchair trainers on the internet.

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by Allin13 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:58 pm

Unless a greyhound starts hunting no other dog will come close. Its been what 48 years at Ames and two setters have won! But lets say a gsp does win, what next? It would be like the Cubs! :lol:

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by Cajun Casey » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:32 pm

topher40 wrote:Exactly Casey, there isnt interest from the folks that actually have a dog that can qualify. The only interest is from the armchair trainers on the internet.
Not necessarily, but the logistics of time and money, respectively, play against either an amateur or a pro handler making a deducated effort at qualifying a shorthair.

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by dan v » Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:56 am

Cajun Casey wrote:There are half a dozen shorthairs that could do it.
Honest? I don't think that's the case though...look at the numbers of ES TRYING to qualify to get to Ames, much less win. On a good year what, maybe 10-12 English are in attendance?

Then again, maybe the GSP's aren't there because they're not trying to get there.

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by Cajun Casey » Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:51 am

Wyndancer wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:There are half a dozen shorthairs that could do it.
Honest? I don't think that's the case though...look at the numbers of ES TRYING to qualify to get to Ames, much less win. On a good year what, maybe 10-12 English are in attendance?

Then again, maybe the GSP's aren't there because they're not trying to get there.
Exactly.

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by Retiredbirddogman » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:04 am

LIke asking if a pointer or setter could finish the sled race in Alaska. Are we asking what animals are capable of a certain amount of endurance? I would name it , but, don't know how it is spelled. lol
Eye did her rod - lmao

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by dan v » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:13 am

Cajun Casey wrote:
Wyndancer wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:There are half a dozen shorthairs that could do it.
Honest? I don't think that's the case though...look at the numbers of ES TRYING to qualify to get to Ames, much less win. On a good year what, maybe 10-12 English are in attendance?

Then again, maybe the GSP's aren't there because they're not trying to get there.
Exactly.
But then again...there are some pretty monied people in the GSP, maybe some of those have the desire to give it a go? Why not have one of the heavy hitters put a heavy hitter GSP with a Richie Robertson? And give it a go? I get that asking a GSP pro to make a detour of the GSP circuit, and having the balance of the string ride the pines, or enter something that the other owners have no desire to enter.

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by Cajun Casey » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:15 am

Probably no one wants to shell out that kind of money to be a loser.

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by dan v » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:18 am

Cajun Casey wrote:Probably no one wants to shell out that kind of money to be a loser.
The Setter Fund just paid 16K.

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by Cajun Casey » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:26 am

Wyndancer wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:Probably no one wants to shell out that kind of money to be a loser.
The Setter Fund just paid 16K.
You're right! The shorthair folks could probably scrape up a couple of bucks, a can of Copenhagen and some lint. Game on!

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by Allin13 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:27 am

Wyndancer wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:Probably no one wants to shell out that kind of money to be a loser.
The Setter Fund just paid 16K.
After 30 years it should have got high!
:P

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by mask » Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:23 am

I'm going to take a wild guess here. If anyone owned a dog other than a pointer or english setter that could qualify for the NC at Ames, they would jump in with both front feet. Getting a gsp there ( or other breed) that could compete and DNA would be another matter.

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by Cajun Casey » Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:30 am

mask wrote:I'm going to take a wild guess here. If anyone owned a dog other than a pointer or english setter that could qualify for the NC at Ames, they would jump in with both front feet. Getting a gsp there ( or other breed) that could compete and DNA would be another matter.
DNA is required only for confirmation of pedigree accuracy. It can't tell you breed for sure. At that level in American Field it would have been done at the first championship. There have been shorthairs I know for sure halfway qualified. It just isn't a priority.

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by Neil » Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:30 pm

Retiredbirddogman wrote:LIke asking if a pointer or setter could finish the sled race in Alaska. Are we asking what animals are capable of a certain amount of endurance? I would name it , but, don't know how it is spelled. lol
Eye did her rod - lmao
Some history-

Bob Wehle won a number of the NY area sled dog races, even ran his top champions. (it is in his book), He did tell me he sold some pups to them.

There were some red setter crosses that won the Iditerod. They changed the rules so that only trational looking northern sled dogs can compete.

Still they are out-breeding to pointers. A dog that can run 3 hours in the mud at Ames would have little problem trotting pulling 1/8 of a sled for a few days. In fact the sled guys came down to the Southeast to checkout field trial conditioning program. Their only concern was the short hair and the cold during rest periods.

There is not much a top pointer can't do.

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by Red » Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:31 pm

Can someone explain Ames to me?
Why does the Pointer dominate?
Is endurance, speed the biggest factor? Number of finds(points)?
Has a GSP ever won at Ames? Come close?
Thanks

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by slistoe » Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:37 pm

Red wrote: Has a GSP ever won at Ames? Come close?
Thanks
You must win two qualifying stakes in a year (there is a listing of which ones they are) to be allowed to enter the National at Ames. No GSP has ever come close to qualifying to enter.

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by brad27 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:50 pm

slistoe wrote:
Red wrote: Has a GSP ever won at Ames? Come close?
Thanks
You must win two qualifying stakes in a year (there is a listing of which ones they are) to be allowed to enter the National at Ames. No GSP has ever come close to qualifying to enter.
I thought here have been a few that were half qualified?

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by slistoe » Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:02 pm

brad27 wrote:
slistoe wrote:
Red wrote: Has a GSP ever won at Ames? Come close?
Thanks
You must win two qualifying stakes in a year (there is a listing of which ones they are) to be allowed to enter the National at Ames. No GSP has ever come close to qualifying to enter.
I thought here have been a few that were half qualified?
I think I recall the number 2 being bandied about. Close would depend on whether you saw the first or the second win as the bigger hurdle to cross.
Last edited by slistoe on Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by Neil » Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:29 pm

There have been at least 2 gsps 1/2 qualified, with their success out West I would suspect more.

It takes 2 firsts in qualifying trials in a dog's lifetime to qualify the first time, and then a placement for the next years. There are a number (67?) Of qualifying trials published in the Field each year. Interestingly some are Derby Championships.

Ed Husser and his owner are the only ones that I know that actively tried to qualify, with announced plans to run, they gave up, she switched to pointers and won it with Brush Country Spectre.

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by jasonw99 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:59 pm

mask wrote:I'm going to take a wild guess here. If anyone owned a dog other than a pointer or english setter that could qualify for the NC at Ames, they would jump in with both front feet. Getting a gsp there ( or other breed) that could compete and DNA would be another matter.
Such an ignorant response. Do you even have a clue how DNA testing works?

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by mask » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:46 pm

jasonw99 wrote:
mask wrote:I'm going to take a wild guess here. If anyone owned a dog other than a pointer or english setter that could qualify for the NC at Ames, they would jump in with both front feet. Getting a gsp there ( or other breed) that could compete and DNA would be another matter.
Such an ignorant response. Do you even have a clue how DNA testing works?
It's clear you missed the point, thinly vailed though it was. I will use a :lol: next time. To answer your question --- Yes.

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by Mr. Crappie » Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:47 pm

Nothing against the other breds but in my opinion you will never see anything other than a pointer or setter win the National or any other big all age horseback field trial. The dogs have to run and cover a ton of ground. I sure hope I dont offend anyone as I have had two britts that were good wild bird hunters. When wild birds became scarce I moved to pointers so that I cover more country.

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by bb560m » Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:19 pm

Mr. Crappie wrote:Nothing against the other breds but in my opinion you will never see anything other than a pointer or setter win the National or any other big all age horseback field trial. The dogs have to run and cover a ton of ground. I sure hope I dont offend anyone as I have had two britts that were good wild bird hunters. When wild birds became scarce I moved to pointers so that I cover more country.
There are some huge running GSPs though - are pointers *that* much bigger running than the AA GSPs?

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by brad27 » Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:26 pm

bb560m wrote:
Mr. Crappie wrote:Nothing against the other breds but in my opinion you will never see anything other than a pointer or setter win the National or any other big all age horseback field trial. The dogs have to run and cover a ton of ground. I sure hope I dont offend anyone as I have had two britts that were good wild bird hunters. When wild birds became scarce I moved to pointers so that I cover more country.
There are some huge running GSPs though - are pointers *that* much bigger running than the AA GSPs?
There is more to it then range.

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by bb560m » Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:14 pm

brad27 wrote:There is more to it then range.
Yah, but I've seen some real dang good GSPs that go and hit everything, don't know how they could have done any better, besides having a long, straight up tail on point. In terms of getting to the birds, I would think there are GSPs out there that can do it just as well as pointers. But, I haven't been around long enough to have my opinion worth anything yet, still learning. Maybe my opinion will change in a few more years, still have lots of watching to do.

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Re: could another breed run the nat champ?

Post by Mr. Crappie » Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:05 pm

There certainly are good GSP's and Brits out there for sure. I have unted behind both that would make some pointers and setters look pretty bad and I am a pointer man. Generally speaking though, Brits and GSP's don't run as big and in the field trial world they want a dog with a nose and that can cover the ground. As I mentioned in my earlier post, I changed from hunting a Brittney to hunting pointers because they covere more ground and found more birds. If the Quail population in Missouri was as good as it was back in the 60', 70's, and early 80's you could certainly find enough birds with a close working dog. I sure want everyone to know I don't dislike GSP's or Brittneys because that certainly isn't true. A person has to be happy with the dog he/she owns and how it hunts.......that's all that matters.
I currentlyown two pointers that are out of top notch field trial dogs, but they don't know that and it doesn't matter........it's what you like. In saying all that it would shock me to see any other bred win at the National Championship in Ames. Just my two cents worth.

bb560m- I am glad you love your dog and the only champion it needs to be is yours. I am friends with Ferrel Miller and he will telll you that the love of dogs is what matters, birds hunters are just as important as trialers.

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