could another breed run the nat champ?

[campgsp]

So you all just want to bash the GSP. why? I think some ate more threatened by the idea of a shorthair beating a pointer.
No one with shorthairs bothers with ames because it's not a versatile format and a waist of the shorthairs time. Gsp are do it all dogs. Unlike their county line bound long tail look a like. Tell me something a pointer runs two miles away goes on point. You hoof it over there shoot the bird. Wow lot of hunting with a dog going on there. :roll: Why is this even considered hunting? If I let my dogs go they will get out there 800-1500 yards or more. But not my kind of hunting. 200-300 or less superior in my eyes.

Sorry folks but some really P'ed me off with bashing the gsp. NO gundog should be bashed. Quit it!

[Meller]

I don't think it is if another breed could qualify. and or win at Ame's it is more of who is going to justify the expense to try to beat the odd's of ,( who knows how many pointer promoter's) verse's a few, other breed's and then depend upon a fair shake over tradition.
But a short anwser is yes, another breed, I feel has the potintial to run the championship.

[Ruffshooter]

As a Brittany and GSP owner, I do not see this as a GSP bashing. I see it as pure numbers. The Ames and others were and still are Pointer and Setter games primarily. So back in the day, The old style GSP was not fast nor flashy per sey. It was closer working and many or most are, (compared to the distances being talked about). It would not compete. No matter how good of a bird dog they were. No matter their endurance. IMO

To by pass the % of Pointers and setters entered numbers, What would be kind of neet is to take the top three dogs, in the top similar type trials of each breed and have a gun dog shoot out. Pointers, all setters, brittanies, GSP, Visla, GWP etc. Do an endurance weekend at Ames.

Like the old worlds strongest man competion. You had wrestlers, power lifters, farmers, body builders etc. competeing. The best at the venue came to the top quickly.

Ivan Putski could beat the crap out of any of the other guys but he could not cut is as the worlds strongest man.

Anyway just a thought for fun.

[Vision]

[quote="orbirdhunter].but rather would any other breeds have the physical capabilities to make that kind of 3hr run..athletically speaking....[/quote]


There are plenty of dogs of various breeds capable of running in a physically demanding 3 hour course.

The hardest part of winning at Ames for a non pointer is the breed bias.

[ACooper]

So you all just want to bash the GSP. why? I think some ate more threatened by the idea of a shorthair beating a pointer.
No one with shorthairs bothers with ames because it's not a versatile format and a waist of the shorthairs time. Gsp are do it all dogs. Unlike their county line bound long tail look a like. Tell me something a pointer runs two miles away goes on point. You hoof it over there shoot the bird. Wow lot of hunting with a dog going on there. :roll: Why is this even considered hunting? If I let my dogs go they will get out there 800-1500 yards or more. But not my kind of hunting. 200-300 or less superior in my eyes.

Sorry folks but some really P'ed me off with bashing the gsp. NO gundog should be bashed. Quit it!

Do something about it, get a dog qualified.

[Winchey]

I don't think it is if another breed could qualify. and or win at Ame's it is more of who is going to justify the expense to try to beat the odd's of ,( who knows how many pointer promoter's) verse's a few, other breed's and then depend upon a fair shake over tradition.
But a short anwser is yes, another breed, I feel has the potintial to run the championship.

I don't understand the argument. Every person that goes to ames has to justify a big expense while the odds are stacked against them.

[slistoe]

The hardest part of winning at Ames for a non pointer is the breed bias.

And what basis do you have for making that statement? There has never been a dog run other than Setter and Pointer so...... The setters can't win it because of breed bias?
This is the most common "loser" statement there is in trials - next to "It's political".
Granted, I have never been competitive in the "big stakes", but my reality running an "off" breed was that I won when I deserved to, and when I lost it was because we were beat by a better performance.

[Chukar12]

I have had very limited access to judges with the credentials and experience that they choose for Ames, a grand total of 2...but I have ridden with them for a week at a time as the event reporter, and I can assure you that of the folks I know I would stake my life on the opinion that it would not be a breed bias that shaped their judging.

[Neil]

The hardest part of winning at Ames for a non pointer is the breed bias.

And what basis do you have for making that statement? There has never been a dog run other than Setter and Pointer so...... The setters can't win it because of breed bias?
This is the most common "loser" statement there is in trials - next to "It's political".
Granted, I have never been competitive in the "big stakes", but my reality running an "off" breed was that I won when I deserved to, and when I lost it was because we were beat by a better performance.

Well said. I never hear the breed bias/political stuff from those with good dogs.

In fact, in some of the bigger stakes, where I had the only Britt entered, sometimes the only field trial Britt the judges had ever seen, I got too good of a look. They watched his every move a bit too closely. Hard to hide a little booble from such securtiny.

I did have one set of judges that did screw me, I was the first or second place dog, and they used a dog that went down on the flush. Those judges have not been invited back.

Neil

[remmy]

The hardest part of winning at Ames for a non pointer is the breed bias.

And what basis do you have for making that statement? There has never been a dog run other than Setter and Pointer so...... The setters can't win it because of breed bias?
This is the most common "loser" statement there is in trials - next to "It's political".
Granted, I have never been competitive in the "big stakes", but my reality running an "off" breed was that I won when I deserved to, and when I lost it was because we were beat by a better performance.

Well said. I never hear the breed bias/political stuff from those with good dogs.

In fact, in some of the bigger stakes, where I had the only Britt entered, sometimes the only field trial Britt the judges had ever seen, I got too good of a look. They watched his every move a bit too closely. Hard to hide a little booble from such securtiny.

I did have one set of judges that did screw me, I was the first or second place dog, and they used a dog that went down on the flush. Those judges have not been invited back.

Neil

There is some truth to this statement. Breed bias and politics do exist. Argue all you want. It's not all judges but a good number of them. We GSP owners see it first hand running in small pointer trials. Imagine Ames! Why should we bother if we cant get past the smaller trials? I know some guys have done well, Mr Favor for example, but its rare...especially on the east coast.

[dead mike]

i would bet Mr. Favor would say the judging has been fair.

[Neil]

Breed bias and politics are rare, non-competitive dogs are numerous.

I have been placing Brittanys in the Northeast since the 70's. Dr. Bosier and Clair Gross have been winning with red setters for even longer. Those are facts, you are giving excuses.

[deseeker]

Breed bias and politics are rare, non-competitive dogs are numerous.

So true

[remmy]

Like I said...not all judges. I'm not making excuses because I Just recently started running my dogs in us complete against pointers and have been accepted well. So I'm not making excuses. For crying out loud there are biases toward certain handlers out here.

[slistoe]

There is some truth to this statement. Breed bias and politics do exist. Argue all you want. It's not all judges but a good number of them. We GSP owners see it first hand running in small pointer trials. Imagine Ames! Why should we bother if we cant get past the smaller trials? I know some guys have done well, Mr Favor for example, but its rare...especially on the east coast.

Yeah, just imagine!
Get a better dog - or a better trained dog - or a better handler - Whining about bias and politics will never get you in the winners circle even if you own pointers.

[Saddle]

So you all just want to bash the GSP. why? I think some ate more threatened by the idea of a shorthair beating a pointer.
No one with shorthairs bothers with ames because it's not a versatile format and a waist of the shorthairs time. Gsp are do it all dogs. Unlike their county line bound long tail look a like. Tell me something a pointer runs two miles away goes on point. You hoof it over there shoot the bird. Wow lot of hunting with a dog going on there. :roll: Why is this even considered hunting? If I let my dogs go they will get out there 800-1500 yards or more. But not my kind of hunting. 200-300 or less superior in my eyes.

Sorry folks but some really P'ed me off with bashing the gsp. NO gundog should be bashed. Quit it!

Let's the get the white elephant out of the room Camp. I respect you and your opinion but because NO ONE else here will say I will.

A true all age pointer will beat up on a true all age shorthair 99% of the time. That in itself is why they don't do it. You can give us all this garbage about the versatile thing and it being a waste of time and all that nonsense but the bottom line is because THEY CAN'T. Sorry to be blunt. Don't want to start a pissing match but facts are facts. There are some really outstanding shorthairs in the world but they are few and far between when it comes to being braced with a legit all age pointer. Another thing I think fails to be mentioned is what is really GERMAN about an all age shorthair. Where do you think all that run came from Camp? The pointer guys will tell you: You're welcome.

Ezzy drives me crazy and I cannot stand the guy a single bit but whenever this comes up he makes the same valid and true statement every time. His stance is why can't people just be happy with the brittany being what it is or the shorthair being what it is? Why do they all have to be lumped into the same category and compared. We're talking about dogs that were bred to do different things. Why make these comparisons? It's a complete waste of time.

I like all the dogs out there. I have finished dogs of every shape and size and they were all nice. All served a purpose and that purpose isn't all the same.

[remmy]

There is some truth to this statement. Breed bias and politics do exist. Argue all you want. It's not all judges but a good number of them. We GSP owners see it first hand running in small pointer trials. Imagine Ames! Why should we bother if we cant get past the smaller trials? I know some guys have done well, Mr Favor for example, but its rare...especially on the east coast.

Yeah, just imagine!
Get a better dog - or a better trained dog - or a better handler - Whining about bias and politics will never get you in the winners circle even if you own pointers.

Wow! Really? I would do some research before you talk about my dogs!

Like I said, I'm not complaining. My dogs have done plenty of winning. I'm just stating facts. I've personally never been screwed but have seen others that have. It's out there believe or not. That's all I'm saying. Geez people. Relax!

[slistoe]

There is some truth to this statement. Breed bias and politics do exist. Argue all you want. It's not all judges but a good number of them. We GSP owners see it first hand running in small pointer trials. Imagine Ames! Why should we bother if we cant get past the smaller trials? I know some guys have done well, Mr Favor for example, but its rare...especially on the east coast.

Yeah, just imagine!
Get a better dog - or a better trained dog - or a better handler - Whining about bias and politics will never get you in the winners circle even if you own pointers.

Wow! Really? I would do some research before you talk about my dogs!

Like I said, I'm not complaining. My dogs have done plenty of winning. I'm just stating facts. I've personally never been screwed but have seen others that have. It's out there believe or not. That's all I'm saying. Geez people. Relax!

You are the one that said you can't get past the pointers in the small trials. Then you went on to make excuses for why.

[remmy]

Not me personally but as part of the GSP crowd. My post said we not I.

[Sharon]

I have had very limited access to judges with the credentials and experience that they choose for Ames, a grand total of 2...but I have ridden with them for a week at a time as the event reporter, and I can assure you that of the folks I know I would stake my life on the opinion that it would not be a breed bias that shaped their judging.

[Vision]

The hardest part of winning at Ames for a non pointer is the breed bias.

And what basis do you have for making that statement? There has never been a dog run other than Setter and Pointer so...... The setters can't win it because of breed bias?
This is the most common "loser" statement there is in trials - next to "It's political".
Granted, I have never been competitive in the "big stakes", but my reality running an "off" breed was that I won when I deserved to, and when I lost it was because we were beat by a better performance.

If a GSP, Setter, Red Setter or any breed for that matter has an equal performance to a pointer in an AF trial the nod will go to the pointer 99% of the time and everyone knows it.

[slistoe]

The hardest part of winning at Ames for a non pointer is the breed bias.

And what basis do you have for making that statement? There has never been a dog run other than Setter and Pointer so...... The setters can't win it because of breed bias?
This is the most common "loser" statement there is in trials - next to "It's political".
Granted, I have never been competitive in the "big stakes", but my reality running an "off" breed was that I won when I deserved to, and when I lost it was because we were beat by a better performance.

If a GSP, Setter, Red Setter or any breed for that matter has an equal performance to a pointer in an AF trial the nod will go to the pointer 99% of the time and everyone knows it.

That's just it though - how is it possible to KNOW it? IT has not happened. Going by my experience with running off breed dogs against the pointers on their grounds with their judges I would have to say that you are dead wrong.

[slistoe]

Not me personally but as part of the GSP crowd. My post said we not I.

"We" would include "you". You did not say "them".
The facts are that there do not exist "good numbers" of breed blind judges in my experience.

[dead mike]

Sounds like sour grapes to me. There is a reason pointers and setters are dominant in hb and coverdod trials and there is reason gsp,s are used more as a versatile dog. If you want to compete trials at the highest level get a pointer or setter. Horses for courses people.
I ran a continental breed for ten years in hb trials, i never seen biased once with any of the judges.
Its a small community and judges have reputations. What would be in it for a judge not to place right dog?

[jasonw99]

ohhh no you didn't throw cover dog into this.. THe coverdog circuit is a joke.. I know of one pro who was very successful just drop out of it. why?? because maybe he didn't run seters? politics? I don't know can just speculate.. But trust me coverdog is a JOKE.. mentioning it in the same sentence as horseback is an insult to all horseback people.

And why you don't see shorthairs on coverdog... I had someone who is very active in the coverdog circuit, judging and handling, who told me a short tailed dog will never win. because of bias.. from his mouth not mine

[Chukar12]

Vision,

f a GSP, Setter, Red Setter or any breed for that matter has an equal performance to a pointer in an AF trial the nod will go to the pointer 99% of the time and everyone knows it.

In practical terms for a trial this would be call for a second series...correct? I mean where two pointers, setters, GSP's, whatever are considered all even ...How often does that ever happen? Judges have a parameter to judge under and a lot of latitude based on what THEY like...understandably some will see their perception as bias. Personally, other than a rare exception it's all a matter of opinion.

[dead mike]

ok lets throw out cover dog and put in abha trials.

[Winchey]

ohhh no you didn't throw cover dog into this.. THe coverdog circuit is a joke.. I know of one pro who was very successful just drop out of it. why?? because maybe he didn't run seters? politics? I don't know can just speculate.. But trust me coverdog is a JOKE.. mentioning it in the same sentence as horseback is an insult to all horseback people.

And why you don't see shorthairs on coverdog... I had someone who is very active in the coverdog circuit, judging and handling, who told me a short tailed dog will never win. because of bias.. from his mouth not mine

I don't know why you hate coverdog trials so bad. If you are talking about Bruce Minard I am pretty sure he won plenty, I thought he was moving on to a bigger game.

At our NA WC ch we had a pointer win last year, setter ru, this year it was pointer winner, setter ru. At our amateur last year it was a pointer who won and a pointer ru. This years amateur was winner was a pointer and the ru was pointer as well. They are definately not biased against pointers in my region. Best dog has won in the trials I have seen imo.

[campgsp]

Let's the get the white elephant out of the room Camp. I respect you and your opinion but because NO ONE else here will say I will.

A true all age pointer will beat up on a true all age shorthair 99% of the time. That in itself is why they don't do it. You can give us all this garbage about the versatile thing and it being a waste of time and all that nonsense but the bottom line is because THEY CAN'T. Sorry to be blunt. Don't want to start a pissing match but facts are facts. There are some really outstanding shorthairs in the world but they are few and far between when it comes to being braced with a legit all age pointer. Another thing I think fails to be mentioned is what is really GERMAN about an all age shorthair. Where do you think all that run came from Camp? The pointer guys will tell you: You're welcome.

Saddle I was just talking crab. Like others where about the shorthairs. I agree that a pointer will beat a shorthairs in the Hb game. Pointers are breed for that. just like a shorthairs will dominate a pointer in a versatile venue like NAVHDA or other versatile venues like track,fur,and water. But to the OP question I think the right shorthairs has a standing chance with the right training for it. And same goes for pointer in shorthair games.

In retrospect running a shorthair in hb stakes is a waste of the breeds true abilities and I stand by that. It's not a garbage statement. No pun intended. There is no doubt in my mind that some lines have cross of pointer in shorthair. Heck history thinks a pointer cross is what created a shorthair. But the paddle works both ways. But I'm not going to even bother getting into all of that.

Each breed has its top priority and I think that's more important then who's better then who. I to have respect for all of the breeds and their capabilities. It's what sets our breeds apart from the rest. Every gundog is special in its own.

[bb560m]

So none of Gulledge's AA shorthairs could compete with pointers?

[Winchey]

I just don't understand how the goal of an akc aa shorthair differs from that af an aa pointer. Aren't both venues looking for the same thing? Or are the aa gsp breeders still trying to maintain the versatile aspect?

[deseeker]

Will somebody please post the picture of the guy beating a dead horse

[SetterNut]

I would think that a GSP or a Brit that could run with the top end pointers and Setters at Ames, would not resemble GSPs or Brits much.

The breeding focus for the breeds have been different.

[Winchey]

Do they thou? I see a lot of gsp's that share a lot more in common with a pointer than a dk. Looks like a lot of them want the same thing, and I for one don't see a "bleep" thing wrong with it.

[Grange]

ohhh no you didn't throw cover dog into this.. THe coverdog circuit is a joke.. I know of one pro who was very successful just drop out of it. why?? because maybe he didn't run seters? politics? I don't know can just speculate.. But trust me coverdog is a JOKE.. mentioning it in the same sentence as horseback is an insult to all horseback people.

And why you don't see shorthairs on coverdog... I had someone who is very active in the coverdog circuit, judging and handling, who told me a short tailed dog will never win. because of bias.. from his mouth not mine

Short tailed doges will never win in cover dog trials except when they do. In one of the few times I've seen shorthairs run in coverdog trials they had placed. I've seen and judged other short tailed breeds run in coverdog trials and they did well. I was at major cover dog trial in WI when I was pulled into a conversation about how a well known pro was told about how well a couple brittanies ran in a coverdog trial in Michigan that same weekend. It turned out I know those brittanies very well and they will continue to run in coverdog trials. If short tailed dogs dogs will never win then I must have just imagined what I've seen and better tell the brittanies owners they shouldn't waste their time going to anymore cover dog trials.

[Grange]

ohhh no you didn't throw cover dog into this.. THe coverdog circuit is a joke.. I know of one pro who was very successful just drop out of it. why?? because maybe he didn't run seters? politics? I don't know can just speculate.. But trust me coverdog is a JOKE.. mentioning it in the same sentence as horseback is an insult to all horseback people.

And why you don't see shorthairs on coverdog... I had someone who is very active in the coverdog circuit, judging and handling, who told me a short tailed dog will never win. because of bias.. from his mouth not mine

I don't know why you hate coverdog trials so bad. If you are talking about Bruce Minard I am pretty sure he won plenty, I thought he was moving on to a bigger game.

At our NA WC ch we had a pointer win last year, setter ru, this year it was pointer winner, setter ru. At our amateur last year it was a pointer who won and a pointer ru. This years amateur was winner was a pointer and the ru was pointer as well. They are definately not biased against pointers in my region. Best dog has won in the trials I have seen imo.

Bruce breeds great pointers no doubt, but he has also run setters and won with them. I do believe he is moving on to horseback trials. I've always said if I were to send my setter away for training I would send her to Bruce.

[Winchey]

If I was looking for a trainer or handler in your area based on reputation alone I wouldn't hesitate either.