Conformation

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SCT
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Conformation

Post by SCT » Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:48 pm

On a past thread about conformation, I said I would try and get some shots of my 8 month old pointer pup standing. Well after taking 120+ shots, trying to get him to relax and stand still, these are the best shots I could get. As you can see, none of them are perfect and I'd dare say it's pretty much impossible, at least for me, to get the ideal shot. Also, you might notice I've smudged out my ugly mug so I didn't send anyone into shock :D As with any dog he resisted every push and pull I put on him.

This male, unlike his brother, is absolutely just like his sire in almost every way. Especially his mental state of mind. He started running big (3/4 mile casts) at 5 months of age and has only gotten bigger and faster as he's grown. At 8 months of age he runs faster than his sire, but seems to have a similar smooth gait. From my limited experience with this line, they don't seem to gain their full strength and speed at least until they are 11-12 months old, maybe later. He has a very strong rear end and his front end is strong as well. He is still growing and in 6 months I'll try and post some photos of his finished conformation.

I'm not here to say he has a perfect conformation, but I do know what he is capable of in strength and speed, as well as agility. He's out of good stock and hopefully will get a chance to prove himself in horseback field trials in the future.

Look closely at the photos, and pay attention to all four legs (even though you can only see two) and see what you think.



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And a photo of his sire;

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And his sire's sire;

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Last edited by SCT on Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:24 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: Conformation

Post by SCT » Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:56 pm

When relaxed he naturally stands with his rear feet behind his rear end with his legs straighter and lower legs perpendicular. He is bending his knees slightly. I may get a shot of him eating or drinking so you can see what I mean.

Please add photos of your own dogs in this position for comparisons. It could be a good thread with of other breeds as well.

Another shot of the front shoulder from Curtis Brown's book;

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Steve

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Re: Conformation

Post by KwikIrish » Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:40 am

Steve, he has one of the nicest front assemblies I've ever seen on a pointer.

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Re: Conformation

Post by Saddle » Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:06 pm

Post a picture of his backside with him facing straight away from the camera. There's nothing real special about his conformation he looks like a lot of other pointers in the world.

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Re: Conformation

Post by cptn » Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:36 pm

I'd love to more closely understand conformation. I get told my Britt has excellent conformation by vets/breeders, grant it he was intended to be a show dog. However, he would be very capable in the field with dual champion lines, if I were to find someone to train him. Though he's content with being a house pup.

Like the OP, I had issues getting side shots.

Here is my pup at 6 months intact, just for reference. His body has changed quite a bit, but it's easy to see structure.
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Since I don't have stacked photos, here are some gait photos.

Not sure if it's the was he's standing or angled, or if it's a touch of roach back. 9 months, intact.
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Smoother topline, straight extension, and his chest is very broad and deep. 9 months.
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Something bugs me about his rear end.
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6 months, rear end.
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Current, 11 months.
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Fun running pic. He is a running beast. It's ridiculous.
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Re: Conformation

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:01 pm

Very nice looking Brit. There is nothing wrong with his top line, he is short coupled which is what the brit is supposed to be but it sometimes interferes with good movement so you need to be careful with that or you can run into problems. But the short cobby dog was not meant to run like a longer coupled dog but was bred to be a quick agile dog instead of a runner. We have tended to get away from some of the cobbiness as we attept to make them competitive with the bigger running dogs instead of breeding them for their original purpose where range was pretty much a non-issue.

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Re: Conformation

Post by cptn » Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:13 pm

Thanks for that info! :D Good to know!

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Re: Conformation

Post by Stoneface » Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:30 pm

How is that dog bred?

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Re: Conformation

Post by Tyler S » Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:48 pm

SCT wrote:
Please add photos of your own dogs in this position for comparisons. It could be a good thread with of other breeds as well.

Steve
Nice looking dog IMO. I don't trial or show, but I like a nice looking dog. I had a couple of people remark about one of my dogs high a$$ end, which I guess is a fault, when he was 8-9 months, but totally different look by 12-13 months. The first pic of Treff is @ 9 months. The next 2 are at 12-13 months.

Image
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Re: Conformation

Post by SCT » Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:05 pm

Thanks kwikirish, some people may not like his conformation and that's fine, but it pleases me. Many field trial bred pointers will be similarly built.

Ezzy, I would agree that the shorter coupled dogs are more agile. This dogs brother is short coupled and seems to be more agile then he is.

Cptn, your Brittney looks real good, shoulder angles and rear end. That's why I want to post photos of this dog when he's relaxed (or at attention like your dog) to show his rear end. He stands very similar to your britt but maybe his legs won't be quite as far back, close though.
Saddle wrote:Post a picture of his backside with him facing straight away from the camera. There's nothing real special about his conformation he looks like a lot of other pointers in the world.
I don't remember saying anything about him being "real special". My point was to show his confirmation and that it correlates with his locomotion. Some people in other threads have talked about more angle in the two main shoulder bones being "proper", and his are probably in the 110-120 degree which is somewhat shallow angles by comparison. I personally believe he will move smoother, faster, stronger, and last longer than a dog with steeper angled shoulders. Saddle, could you post some side shots of one of your pointers, maybe what you think is a "real special" specimen? I'll post a rear shot of him when he gets back in a week.

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Re: Conformation

Post by SCT » Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:14 pm

Stoneface, Branscum's Nickle is his mothers sire, and Branscum's Doc Holiday, (Branscum's Nickle son) is his sire's sire (the white dog in the above post.). Sir Lancelot is in there a bunch as well along with Blue Collar Baby.

Tyler, let's see some bench photos. Hard to tell when you're looking down on a dog or the pose is foreshortened.

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Re: Conformation

Post by Tyler S » Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:29 pm

SCT wrote: Tyler, let's see some bench photos. Hard to tell when you're looking down on a dog or the pose is foreshortened.
:oops: I may try that, but I don't think it will work out to good with my team :D

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Re: Conformation

Post by buckeyebowman » Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:30 pm

Well, proper conformation, or even outstanding conformation is one thing, but how does the dog hunt? It probably doesn't need to be said, but I am not a field trialer! I am interested in dogs that hunt birds. My buddy had a litter of GSP pups, and his friend bought the prime male out of that litter. All the following summer my buddy would call him saying, Hey
we're going to go run and train the dogs at the club, how about you meet us there? Well, the guy and his dog never showed up. Indeed, he never showed up until the opening day of the pheasant season! Then, this guy, and about 8 of his buddies, showed up to whack the birds. Unfortunately, they unleashed a fusillade over the dog's head, and it is now gun shy!

As far as conformation is concerned, I was dumbfounded the first time i saw him! I wish i had a pic to show you, but this dog was gorgeous, even to an untrained eye! Nowadays he spend his time as a "couch potato" house dog!

It makes me, sometimes, wonder how much great genetics is squandered by folks who don't know what they are doing!








t

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Re: Conformation

Post by Saddle » Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:10 pm

Our bitch is on the left. Nice built bitch with a good tailset. Nice deep chest but not pigeon chested. Good straight front legs and not cow hocked in the back. Nice backline and a little longer bodied front to back. This bitch floats across the ground effortlessly. This pic is from last weekend. Second in the hb sd. I like them built like her.

All the conformity in the world doesn't matter if their gait sucks. I've had dogs that looked awesome until they they started to move. Watching the push pull on the ground of the rear and front end respectively will tell you about the longevity you can expect out of your dog. Standing them up and talking about shoulder angulation will not. Not a bad place to start but not the end all.

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Re: Conformation

Post by SCT » Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:23 pm

I agree that gait is where everything should come together. But, I haven't personally compared a dogs conformation to a sew-saw gait or other gait that would tend to wear them down prematurely. Nor can anyone measure how much the heart of a dog affects his/her will to run even with a poor gait. I have seen what the dog I posted photos of runs like, and his gait seems effortless and smooth, but he's also quite fast so I can only assume his conformation has an important role in that mechanical function.

The only factual testing that can be done where you could study different qualities of gait would be on a treadmill video. This book "http://www.amazon.com/Motion-Hunde-Bewe ... locomotion" has 400 movies of it on a DVD but I don't have it. I would surely buy it if I knew it had footage of pointers in full gallop.

Steve

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Re: Conformation

Post by whatsnext » Sat Mar 16, 2013 2:12 pm

This is my EB at 18 months he is 37 lbs, i have a 13 year old EB who is cobby we nicknamed him meatloaf i will try and get a picture of him up as a comparison.
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Re: Conformation

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:41 pm

I have never seen a dog with good conformation have a bad gait. That is the reason we are concerned with it. If the bone and muscle structure is right the dog can and will move well. Occasionally you will find a dog that isn't correct but can still move well but it is unusual. We continue to hear people who don't like the shows talk about the show dogs can move at a trot but not when running in the field and that just isn't true. It is easier to see when the dog is trotting but that same ability to move correctly and easily carries over into good movement when running. We do see differences in speed and desire sometimes but the ability to move well is still there. We also have to consider that good movement is different for different types of dogs and the correct movement for a terrier is quite different than the movement we want in our sporting breeds and most working breeds.

I really think many people try to make a contraversy where there really isn't one Good conformation is necessary in all of our sporting dogs so they are capable of good movement for the job they are bred to do. And that is true in the show ring, the upland fields or the trials. Good movement is good movement no matter where you are or what speed you are moving.

Ezzy

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Re: Conformation

Post by slistoe » Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:44 pm

ezzy333 wrote:I have never seen a dog with good conformation have a bad gait. That is the reason we are concerned with it. If the bone and muscle structure is right the dog can and will move well. Occasionally you will find a dog that isn't correct but can still move well but it is unusual. We continue to hear people who don't like the shows talk about the show dogs can move at a trot but not when running in the field and that just isn't true. It is easier to see when the dog is trotting but that same ability to move correctly and easily carries over into good movement when running. We do see differences in speed and desire sometimes but the ability to move well is still there. We also have to consider that good movement is different for different types of dogs and the correct movement for a terrier is quite different than the movement we want in our sporting breeds and most working breeds.

I really think many people try to make a contraversy where there really isn't one Good conformation is necessary in all of our sporting dogs so they are capable of good movement for the job they are bred to do. And that is true in the show ring, the upland fields or the trials. Good movement is good movement no matter where you are or what speed you are moving.

Ezzy
If trotting was a good indicator of the ability to move at a run(gallop) then they would be buying offspring of the trotting horses to win the Kentucky Derby. But they don't do that, do they?
A trot that is pleasing to the eye has very little to do with efficient movement in the field - speed, endurance and agility.

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Re: Conformation

Post by shags » Sun Mar 17, 2013 5:20 am

ezzy333 wrote:I have never seen a dog with good conformation have a bad gait. That is the reason we are concerned with it. If the bone and muscle structure is right the dog can and will move well. Occasionally you will find a dog that isn't correct but can still move well but it is unusual. We continue to hear people who don't like the shows talk about the show dogs can move at a trot but not when running in the field and that just isn't true. It is easier to see when the dog is trotting but that same ability to move correctly and easily carries over into good movement when running. We do see differences in speed and desire sometimes but the ability to move well is still there. We also have to consider that good movement is different for different types of dogs and the correct movement for a terrier is quite different than the movement we want in our sporting breeds and most working breeds.

I really think many people try to make a contraversy where there really isn't one Good conformation is necessary in all of our sporting dogs so they are capable of good movement for the job they are bred to do. And that is true in the show ring, the upland fields or the trials. Good movement is good movement no matter where you are or what speed you are moving.

Ezzy
So then the pointers and setters that have the smooth, flowing, floating gait that we want to see in the field should be successful in the show ring? Or, those obviously conformationally 'correct' bench pointers and setters will display that desired gait?

There is no comparison between them, one side of the fence or the other.

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Re: Conformation

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:03 am

slistoe wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:I have never seen a dog with good conformation have a bad gait. That is the reason we are concerned with it. If the bone and muscle structure is right the dog can and will move well. Occasionally you will find a dog that isn't correct but can still move well but it is unusual. We continue to hear people who don't like the shows talk about the show dogs can move at a trot but not when running in the field and that just isn't true. It is easier to see when the dog is trotting but that same ability to move correctly and easily carries over into good movement when running. We do see differences in speed and desire sometimes but the ability to move well is still there. We also have to consider that good movement is different for different types of dogs and the correct movement for a terrier is quite different than the movement we want in our sporting breeds and most working breeds.

I really think many people try to make a contraversy where there really isn't one Good conformation is necessary in all of our sporting dogs so they are capable of good movement for the job they are bred to do. And that is true in the show ring, the upland fields or the trials. Good movement is good movement no matter where you are or what speed you are moving.

Ezzy
If trotting was a good indicator of the ability to move at a run(gallop) then they would be buying offspring of the trotting horses to win the Kentucky Derby. But they don't do that, do they?
A trot that is pleasing to the eye has very little to do with efficient movement in the field - speed, endurance and agility.
We don't buy a terrier because it moves correctly either. But we do know that the proper conformation will allow a dog to move correctly. Of course, their are many other parts of conformation unigue to each breed that enters in to winning in a show ring but that is a seperate thing from moving. Things such as ears, eyes, teeth, coat, size, and many other things enter in to conformation. But then that is what keeps our breeds looking like our breeds and shouldn't really cause a problem with our breeds moving like our breeds. And we have found this to be true within the Britts and the breeders who are breeding for total conformation within the GSP's are proving the same thing. Good dogs can win in both venues when the total package is being bred for rather than just one of the two. We call those dogs Dual Champions.

Ezzy

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Re: Conformation

Post by SCT » Sun Mar 17, 2013 9:19 am

As far as I know the brittney organizations/groups are the only folks that produce dual champions, maybe gsp's have the same opportunities, I don't know. And, the setters in shows appear to have the same shaped heads and some other characteristics as field setters, but can you imagine one of those show setters running in a field trial of any kind? Their hair is a foot long and I'd bet under all that hair the "show" confirmation would prove to be a failure in field challenges. When it comes to pointers, show dogs are different to field dogs in so many ways it's amazing. My experience is from photographs, books, and viewing television dog shows, I have never been to a dog show. But, from what I've seen, the most perfectly put together field pointer would have a tough time winning any show titles. And of course, being a bird hunter, I'd never consider buying a "show" quality pointer, unless I could see it run and hunt to see if any of those "field" qualities are even still in tact. I have seen some wiems and vizlas in shows that looked very similar to their field counterpart, but just haven't seen it with pointers. A generalization from an artists standpoint would be the field trial pointer is "cut" and lean, with "strong" straight lines. Where the show pointer has more rounded lines making them look soft, their field counterpart looks hard and solid.

Ezzy, I guess we just have different ideas of what "correct" means. Can both show and field pointers run correctly??? Sure, but they are designed for two different purposes, and I think it's the fault of the show people, that there's a difference. Just my opinion.

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Re: Conformation

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Mar 17, 2013 9:33 am

SCT wrote:As far as I know the brittney organizations/groups are the only folks that produce dual champions, maybe gsp's have the same opportunities, I don't know. And, the setters in shows appear to have the same shaped heads and some other characteristics as field setters, but can you imagine one of those show setters running in a field trial of any kind? Their hair is a foot long and I'd bet under all that hair the "show" confirmation would prove to be a failure in field challenges. When it comes to pointers, show dogs are different to field dogs in so many ways it's amazing. My experience is from photographs, books, and viewing television dog shows, I have never been to a dog show. But, from what I've seen, the most perfectly put together field pointer would have a tough time winning any show titles. And of course, being a bird hunter, I'd never consider buying a "show" quality pointer, unless I could see it run and hunt to see if any of those "field" qualities are even still in tact. I have seen some wiems and vizlas in shows that looked very similar to their field counterpart, but just haven't seen it with pointers. A generalization from an artists standpoint would be the field trial pointer is "cut" and lean, with "strong" straight lines. Where the show pointer has more rounded lines making them look soft, their field counterpart looks hard and solid.

Ezzy, I guess we just have different ideas of what "correct" means. Can both show and field pointers run correctly??? Sure, but they are designed for two different purposes, and I think it's the fault of the show people, that there's a difference. Just my opinion.
We have at least one breeder on here that has won in both venues with his pointers. I admit there is a difference in type but that does not say they can't compete. It does say that most couldn't do well against the dogs that have been bred strictly for field ability over the past 100 years. And as far as the setters go if you don't keep them groomed to meet your field requirements many would have coats that look like the show dogs. Those show dogs do not have a coat that looks like that if you don't protect it when the dogs are out running or playing. It takes a lot of work to make the natural setter coat look the way it does for both purposes. But it is easier to just cut and trim for the field than it is to protect it for the show. But I hear what you are saying and agree to some extent.

Ezzy

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Re: Conformation

Post by slistoe » Sun Mar 17, 2013 9:48 am

ezzy333 wrote: We have at least one breeder on here that has won in both venues with his pointers.
Ezzy
Someone has a Dual CH Pointer?

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Re: Conformation

Post by SCT » Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:08 am

I agree, and of course the field setters "must" be sheared to compete. They would over heat quickly and perish, if not.

I guess the thing that bothers me about the super long haired setters in shows is that it epitomizes the mind set of the show people. It's all about soft, flowing, smooth, beautiful, fluffy dogs. These dogs we so love, in the beginning, were intentionally bred to be extremely tough, with a huge desire to find birds right out of the womb, with strength and power as they grow, to go to extremes to find birds in any circumstances, to be the superlative athletes that the field trial dogs are. That's what a WINNING show dog should be. IMO :D

A winning show dog should have those other things too, like straight legs, good eyes, good ears, exceptional noses, etc and other breed specific features, but athleticism is also very important. A perfect world would be a merge of all qualities.

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Re: Conformation

Post by Vision » Sun Mar 17, 2013 7:33 pm

SCT wrote:I agree, and of course the field setters "must" be sheared to compete. They would over heat quickly and perish, if not.

I guess the thing that bothers me about the super long haired setters in shows is that it epitomizes the mind set of the show people. It's all about soft, flowing, smooth, beautiful, fluffy dogs. These dogs we so love, in the beginning, were intentionally bred to be extremely tough, with a huge desire to find birds right out of the womb, with strength and power as they grow, to go to extremes to find birds in any circumstances, to be the superlative athletes that the field trial dogs are. That's what a WINNING show dog should be. IMO :D

A winning show dog should have those other things too, like straight legs, good eyes, good ears, exceptional noses, etc and other breed specific features, but athleticism is also very important. A perfect world would be a merge of all qualities.

Steve

Your pointers don't resemble the pointers of 100 years ago.

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Re: Conformation

Post by northern cajun » Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:42 pm

slistoe wrote:
ezzy333 wrote: We have at least one breeder on here that has won in both venues with his pointers.
Ezzy
Someone has a Dual CH Pointer?
Yep and it was Navhda NA so it swims as well.


http://remingtons.tripod.com/home.htm

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Re: Conformation

Post by SCT » Sun Mar 17, 2013 9:35 pm

Vision wrote:
SCT wrote:I agree, and of course the field setters "must" be sheared to compete. They would over heat quickly and perish, if not.

I guess the thing that bothers me about the super long haired setters in shows is that it epitomizes the mind set of the show people. It's all about soft, flowing, smooth, beautiful, fluffy dogs. These dogs we so love, in the beginning, were intentionally bred to be extremely tough, with a huge desire to find birds right out of the womb, with strength and power as they grow, to go to extremes to find birds in any circumstances, to be the superlative athletes that the field trial dogs are. That's what a WINNING show dog should be. IMO :D

A winning show dog should have those other things too, like straight legs, good eyes, good ears, exceptional noses, etc and other breed specific features, but athleticism is also very important. A perfect world would be a merge of all qualities.

Steve

Your pointers don't resemble the pointers of 100 years ago.
Nope, but I'd bet they're more athletic, with a more athletic conformation. I would say they are better, but that's one of those "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" thing. Kyle, would you disagree that the people breeding pointers 100 years ago were breeding for the qualities I mentioned. It would be a wonderful thing to compare today's pointers to those of 100 years ago. Do you believe they'd have the same grit, bottom, speed, or even nose of today's pointers??

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Re: Conformation

Post by Vision » Sun Mar 17, 2013 9:52 pm

SCT wrote:
Vision wrote:
SCT wrote:I agree, and of course the field setters "must" be sheared to compete. They would over heat quickly and perish, if not.

I guess the thing that bothers me about the super long haired setters in shows is that it epitomizes the mind set of the show people. It's all about soft, flowing, smooth, beautiful, fluffy dogs. These dogs we so love, in the beginning, were intentionally bred to be extremely tough, with a huge desire to find birds right out of the womb, with strength and power as they grow, to go to extremes to find birds in any circumstances, to be the superlative athletes that the field trial dogs are. That's what a WINNING show dog should be. IMO :D

A winning show dog should have those other things too, like straight legs, good eyes, good ears, exceptional noses, etc and other breed specific features, but athleticism is also very important. A perfect world would be a merge of all qualities.

Steve

Your pointers don't resemble the pointers of 100 years ago.
Nope, but I'd bet they're more athletic, with a more athletic conformation. I would say they are better, but that's one of those "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" thing. Kyle, would you disagree that the people breeding pointers 100 years ago were breeding for the qualities I mentioned. It would be a wonderful thing to compare today's pointers to those of 100 years ago. Do you believe they'd have the same grit, bottom, speed, or even nose of today's pointers??
My guess would be that they were better.

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Re: Conformation

Post by SCT » Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:34 pm

Better at what, and why?

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Re: Conformation

Post by Vision » Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:52 am

SCT wrote:Better at what, and why?
Wild birds. 100 years ago every dog had the chance to live out their life running and hunting wild birds.

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Re: Conformation

Post by KwikIrish » Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:23 am

SCT wrote:I agree, and of course the field setters "must" be sheared to compete. They would over heat quickly and perish, if not.

I guess the thing that bothers me about the super long haired setters in shows is that it epitomizes the mind set of the show people. It's all about soft, flowing, smooth, beautiful, fluffy dogs. These dogs we so love, in the beginning, were intentionally bred to be extremely tough, with a huge desire to find birds right out of the womb, with strength and power as they grow, to go to extremes to find birds in any circumstances, to be the superlative athletes that the field trial dogs are. That's what a WINNING show dog should be. IMO :D

A winning show dog should have those other things too, like straight legs, good eyes, good ears, exceptional noses, etc and other breed specific features, but athleticism is also very important. A perfect world would be a merge of all qualities.
The hair gene and the hunting ability gene don't have to be mutually exclusive.

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Re: Conformation

Post by SCT » Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:34 pm

Vision wrote:
SCT wrote:Better at what, and why?
Wild birds. 100 years ago every dog had the chance to live out their life running and hunting wild birds.
Ha ha! No doubt they had better wild bird populations, so maybe they had better lives. But, what does that have to do with conformation?

Kwik, I'm not sure what you mean about the hair gene and hunting gene, could you explain?

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Re: Conformation

Post by slistoe » Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:38 pm

SCT wrote:
Kwik, I'm not sure what you mean about the hair gene and hunting gene, could you explain?
Dogs with hair can still be hunting dogs - they are not mutually exclusive.

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Re: Conformation

Post by KwikIrish » Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:11 pm

Kitty after and hunting season, while clippers were not involved, plenty of miles and birds were. She has hair and hunting ability. They can coexist, but you won't have much hair left at the end of the season. (Well the dog won't, hopefully I keep mine!)
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Re: Conformation

Post by SCT » Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:35 am

Kwik, that's a fine looking setter.

Why do they need to be posed with their rear legs so far back? Is it just to bring the top line down in the back? It just doesn't look natural to me.

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Re: Conformation

Post by Vision » Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:56 am

SCT wrote:Kwik, that's a fine looking setter.

Why do they need to be posed with their rear legs so far back? Is it just to bring the top line down in the back? It just doesn't look natural to me.

Short backed but standing over lots of ground...............

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Re: Conformation

Post by KwikIrish » Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:33 pm

Vision wrote:
SCT wrote:Kwik, that's a fine looking setter.

Why do they need to be posed with their rear legs so far back? Is it just to bring the top line down in the back? It just doesn't look natural to me.

Short backed but standing over lots of ground...............
The true length and angle of their rears can be judged when the hocks are perpendicular to the ground. In both of these pics, she is spighlty over stretched (my fault). She has an extreme rear. One of the 3 major things I will look for in a stud is a more moderate rear. She also needs a better croup and tail set. I can live with her head and eye color, but her sloped croup cause her to have a downward angled tail for the most part. If those two things were better, I would be much happier with the outline she makes on point, but I have no complaints on her resiliency, work ethic, and intensity.

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Re: Conformation

Post by SCT » Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:30 pm

She looks pretty darn good to me, but definitely different than my pointers. I'd say her front end is similar to my male's with my male's shoulder blade slightly less angled, but I'm not sure if that position would draw it back slightly. I'll post up a broadside of my little female in my avatar when I get a chance. She's small and fast, and her legs are the straightest I've ever seen. She just flies across the ground. She'd possibly make a good student for the treadmill :D

Thanks for the pics people, keep them coming.

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Re: Conformation

Post by SCT » Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:52 pm

Here you go.

Image

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Re: Conformation

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:40 pm

Pretty dog. My assessment would be I would like to see more angulation in both the shoulder and the rear. Even though the topline is not completely straight she is strong and well fleshed over the loin and that is the more important part of the top. What does bother me more than any of the points I have mentioned, and I may be wrong since it is hard to see clearly from this angle is the fact that her front makeup is pushing those elbows out instead of allowing them to be pretty my straight up and down when viewed from the front. This is a common problem with the pointer conformation and is one of the things Bob Wehle addressed in his breeding program and the Elhews yet today are basically much better in the front assembly. But in all honesty she is a pretty dog and I would consider her very sound except for the wider chest that is forcing the elbows out. My problem with this goes back to the fact that this normsally will get worse as the dog ages and tends to slow them down at some point the worse ones will get to the crippled state.

Will be interested in what Irish has to say.

JMO

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Re: Conformation

Post by SCT » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:21 pm

Actually she's excited like my male was and like I said earlier, she has the straightest legs I've seen on a pointer, let alone any dog. It's possible the lighting makes it look like her elbows kick out. I like setting them up in this angle to the light so you see more contrast. Funny you would make a comment about the width of her chest without seeing that view. I guess I better post up a photo of that as well. She does have a slightly rounded top line compared to the male I posted, and it may add a measure of strength to her hind end. As far as angulation goes, this is exactly what I want to see in a powerful, fast, smooth dog, and it goes along with what Brown talks about in his book. I know where your desire for more angulation comes from, which is a lot of what Curtis Brown is disputing.

She is a bit short coupled and that may contribute to her agility, because she's really quite amazing on the ground, even just in the yard. I agree Ezzy, she is a pretty dog.

Truth is, I'm biased, I like this type of conformation in a pointer, others like something different, maybe with more angles in the front and back. Either can function correctly. I know what this conformation translates to and am impressed with her athleticism. She's also a pretty good bird dog :wink:

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Re: Conformation

Post by JKP » Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:42 am

If you were to ask show folks, they would probably say that this bitch needs more angles front and rear...she is stacked a bit straight at the front. However, she is well balanced...the front and rear "fit" and that is probably more important....that both ends work well together. Desire takes care of the rest.

For endurance, short coupled works well..IMO...as long as the dog is not fighting its own feet. The sprinters of the animal kingdom are long in the back...the endurance champs generally have a shorter, clean, compact stride and carry less length.

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Re: Conformation

Post by SCT » Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:59 am

JKP wrote:If you were to ask show folks, they would probably say that this bitch needs more angles front and rear...she is stacked a bit straight at the front. However, she is well balanced...the front and rear "fit" and that is probably more important....that both ends work well together. Desire takes care of the rest.

For endurance, short coupled works well..IMO...as long as the dog is not fighting its own feet. The sprinters of the animal kingdom are long in the back...the endurance champs generally have a shorter, clean, compact stride and carry less length.
I agree with everything you said JKP. Her angles are very shallow, and that's my point for this thread. By the way, her feet are dainty little cat paws, and they are tough, but that's another subject.

The male I first posted photos of is longer in total body length and has plenty of endurance....But, he's also got tons of drive and that probably helps his endurance hold up :wink:

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Re: Conformation

Post by slistoe » Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:46 am

I was going to comment on the feet on that dog - nice feet.

When what develops through a feet on the ground selection process differs with the intellectual process there is not much question in my mind which is right. There are no changes I would suggest to that dog to imagine what might make it work better.

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Re: Conformation

Post by KwikIrish » Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:32 am

Steve, structurally, I prefer your male.
Your girl has balance, and that is something thg speaks volumes on its self. I wonder could you ever post photos or video of them moving? A gallop would be fine, as would a trot.
You know one thing that I really like is the neck on her. His chest comes well below his elbows, hers doesn't. I like her top line more than his. He has nice sized second thigh(as does she) and more posternum, She flowes more than him, who appears piecey... Nice things about both dogs. I can picture her as the better athlete though, like it is easier for her to do the job, he appears that it takes more physical effort, perhaps it is the slight round of the loin that makes her look like that, whereas he is flatter, but less smooth.
Interesting.

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Re: Conformation

Post by SCT » Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:42 pm

slistoe wrote:I was going to comment on the feet on that dog - nice feet.

When what develops through a feet on the ground selection process differs with the intellectual process there is not much question in my mind which is right. There are no changes I would suggest to that dog to imagine what might make it work better.
Thanks Slistoe, I'm with you on that.

Kwikirish, my male, Jr, will have a deeper chest for sure. I take measurements every two weeks for my own record and his chest deepened about a 1/2" the last two weeks. He may labor more because he's bigger, but he's quite strong in the rear end. I've tracked them both on the Astro and Her highest average was over 19mph for the first 5 minutes where His highest was over 21mph for the first 5 minutes, (side note: after two hours he was still running over 12 mph, and that was in deep sage brush). He has some strength and speed to grow though, and he has more reach than her. It's possible, lb for lb, she is stronger in the rear end and it could be contributed to her slightly rounded top line (she bounces around the yard a lot).

I've posted these photos before along with another where she was coming out of being fully suspended. I'll try and get a shot of her fully stretched out so as to not confuse anyone like last time, but they are not easy to get. I've got a great video camera but am still working on getting something to show her speed. Now, I'm not saying she's the fastest or the best pointer in the world, she's not I'm sure, she's just a DOG, but she's pretty athletic and like I said before, she's a pretty darn good bird dog. And Her personality will really get your attention :D

The snow was 6"-8" deep and deeper by the sagebrush.

Image

Image

Can you post some of your setter running as well, Ezzy, any photos you want to post of your brittney's moving??

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Re: Conformation

Post by Middlecreek » Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:06 pm

Tell me about this dogs conformation....

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Image

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Re: Conformation

Post by slistoe » Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:46 pm

That dog will obviously be a better bird finder because he is pigeon chested.

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Re: Conformation

Post by Neil » Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:17 pm

Mary Montrose!

Look her up, 3 time NC and Reserve Bitch at Westminster, a train ride and just days after one of her wins. The AKC pointer standard has not been significantly changed since, only our perception.

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Re: Conformation

Post by SCT » Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:44 pm

KwikIrish wrote:Steve, structurally, I prefer your male.
Your girl has balance, and that is something thg speaks volumes on its self. I wonder could you ever post photos or video of them moving? A gallop would be fine, as would a trot.
You know one thing that I really like is the neck on her. His chest comes well below his elbows, hers doesn't. I like her top line more than his. He has nice sized second thigh(as does she) and more posternum, She flowes more than him, who appears piecey... Nice things about both dogs. I can picture her as the better athlete though, like it is easier for her to do the job, he appears that it takes more physical effort, perhaps it is the slight round of the loin that makes her look like that, whereas he is flatter, but less smooth.
Interesting.
If I breed Kate next spring my male is an option as a stud, so, from what you've pointed out, it might be a good pairing.

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