Pointers With a Flushing Instinct

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:39 am

Hunting dogs are a philosophical discipline in my world; I stop just short of calling them my religion. I read vociferously everything I can, hunt every free moment in season, train, judge and trial. Such obsessiveness breeds any number social or mental disorders I am sure. Thankfully I have had a strong upbringing, and it allows me to keep perspective and have a discussion about bird dogs without resorting to arguments with children trying to learn, or blindly ramrodding a single training approach I may have been introduced to, and found success with, in the half a dozen dogs I may have owned. No, I suspect my disorders are different, you see my job here working for The Man thwarts my creative instinct and therefore, with dogs, I want to think outside the box...forgive the 80's business speak.

At a trial this past weekend, and I will name it for you fact checkers; The German Shorthaired Pointer of California Club I saw some things that make me question the monikers we put on dogs. I saw pointing dogs with very diverse instincts. I saw several GSP's (It was their club) and one Viszla that appeared to display natural flushing instincts, they went right in and put a bird or birds in the air, a couple of them even completed a retrieve and a shot was never fired. I saw a Brittany do a fair job of coursing on a hare ( we call em jack rabbits), the same dog pointed, then bumped and chased a coyote; this dog is even a National Amateur Field Champion in the pointing dog world. I believe, philosophically, with enough years and selective breeding we could get most pointing breeds to naturally flush. What are your thoughts?

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:51 am

I thought most of the dogs across the pond are taught to flush on command, so ya definately, I don't think it would be difficult. On the other side of the coin I have a pointing dog that I was just about ready to throw in the towel, real him right in and hunt him like a springer until he had a breakout season at nearly 3. He has had a couple broke limb finds on grouse this spring. These birds are acting like these unhuntable Pennsylvania and NY birds I keep hearing about as well. Blowing out from the points when I am 50 yds out sometimes, but the dogs get them pointed, thats all I care about.

Sorry, can't help the childishness, I am one lol.

LabGuy · Post by **LabGuy** » Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:00 am

Chukar12 wrote:I believe, philosophically, with enough years and selective breeding we could get most pointing breeds to naturally flush. What are your thoughts?

Funny how all the pointing guys on this site don't say anything about this but they will bash a pointing lab at the first chance they get. I think it is definitely possible, but it would be interesting to hear about what the pointing dog owners think though.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:14 am

LabGuy wrote:Funny how all the pointing guys on this site don't say anything about this but they will bash a pointing lab at the first chance they get

But most of the bandwidth on this site is consumed discussing just that. All pointing dogs are recovering chasers. In my opinion there is a gradating scale of natural point even in the pointing breeds Ep's and Es's are at the top of that scale and then GSP's in my opinion and who knows after that...

When pointing guys "bash" pointing labs ( who are now "labs that point" or LTP's per the other thread) it is largely because the development of the strain goes well beyond just the terminated stalk we call a point. JKP mentioned with appropriate passion the lack of traditional style and intensity in LTP's that is coveted in traditional pointing breeds. There is also ground application, range, the manner that the dogs use scent (ground v air), stamina and or the ability to withstand heat in many upland scenarios, feet ....

clink83 · Post by **clink83** » Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:18 am

I'm going to breed the pointing instincts out of Brittanys. The breed standard doesn't say they have to point game, just be a gundog. At some point in the past they had Spaniels in their blood, so it's ok. Some Brittanys point, some flush, it's a beautiful thing.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:20 am

PM me if you need to know what lines to start with...I can save you some time.

clink83 · Post by **clink83** » Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:24 am

Chukar12 wrote:PM me if you need to know what lines to start with...I can save you some time.

good one!

chiendog · Post by **chiendog** » Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:27 am

Pointing and flushing are just two parts of a seek-stalk-pause-pounce-seize behaviour pattern hard wired into canines (and other predators, even us). But pointing breeds have been selected to exaggerate the 'pause' part of the pattern while flushing dogs have been selected to exaggerate the pounce part. And since it is very hard to reduce any part of that behaviour pattern to zero, you will always have at least a wee bit of 'flush' in pointing dogs and 'pause' in flushing dogs. The question is how much of the 'good' behaviour do you need and how much of the 'bad' behaviour will you tolerate?

In North America, we tend to want a TON of point and next to no flush in pointing dogs and vice versa for flushing dogs. In the UK, they expect their pointing dogs to point (of course) so they want lots of point...but not too much since they also expect their dogs to flush on command. A dog that has so much point that you simply cannot get it to flush is called a 'sticky' dog over there and they don't like them (I tell my British friends to send those dogs to us!).

I am not very familiar with flushing breeds, so please correct me if I get this wrong, but from what I gather, Springer and cocker guys here want a 'fly or die' kind of flush with zero pause while in the UK, they want to see a 'softer' flush, even a very, very slight pause before the flush and then zooom!

deseeker · Post by **deseeker** » Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:59 am

Chukar12 wrote: I saw a Brittany do a fair job of coursing on a hare ( we call em jack rabbits), the same dog pointed, then bumped and chased a coyote; this dog is even a National Amateur Field Champion in the pointing dog world.

That brittany sounds like a very versitle dog----maybe he should be doing NAVHDA since he likes fur so much

I wonder who owns that National Am Field Champion Dog :roll: :roll: I'm glad you can laugh about it

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:51 am

At the Irish Setter Club of America National Walking Trial a couple weeks ago they were passing out DNA swabs for a pointing gene study. MSU, I believe is the host.

My little trial dog once tracked a deer and treed a squirrel during a Derby brace. He then proceeded to blow off the pick up, proceeded to the clubhouse, opened the door, jumped on the counter and ate the cookies set out for lunch.

I have one shorthair whose job is pretty much flush and pick up.

Wenaha · Post by **Wenaha** » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:58 am

It doesn't take much to turn a staunch pointing dog into a flusher - just shoot any and all bumped birds... done.

Fact is, it takes some work and discipline to keep a dog staunch if you hunt them much.

shags · Post by **shags** » Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:08 pm

I think you have it backwards. It's a dog's instinct to flush. How else would they ever grab lunch?

The breaking process is the subordinating of that instinct in order to allow us to shoot lunch

Now, once in a while we'll come across a dog that'll stand around on point all day long and never want to flush. But notice those dogs are always pretty skinny

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:18 pm

shags wrote:I think you have it backwards. It's a dog's instinct to flush. How else would they ever grab lunch?
The breaking process is the subordinating of that instinct in order to allow us to shoot lunch

Now, once in a while we'll come across a dog that'll stand around on point all day long and never want to flush. But notice those dogs are always pretty skinny

clink83 · Post by **clink83** » Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:42 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:He then proceeded to blow off the pick up, proceeded to the clubhouse, opened the door, jumped on the counter and ate the cookies set out for lunch.

I

Sounds like a smart dog to me!

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:13 pm

Wenaha wrote:It doesn't take much to turn a staunch pointing dog into a flusher - just shoot any and all bumped birds... done.

Fact is, it takes some work and discipline to keep a dog staunch if you hunt them much.

I think the man is right on. In fact to make a flusher of a pointing dog on purpose, just put out birds it can catch. I had a guy come to me with a GSP he was given. The people he got it from said it had to much prey drive sand there fore would never point. I don't buy that idea so we took his dog out in a small training field with some pigeon's and in about 15 min we had it pointing. I different word for pointing might work. We installed an longer blink. Do the same thing to a lab and you can get it to point, probably even a springer. Where the problem come's in with a pointing dog that does that is they are bred to run farther out than gun range, so teaching the to flush could be a disaster. Flusher's on the other hand are bred for more obedience and keeping in gun range. Just as a pointer could be kept at heel a flusher could be taught to run. But the instinct to point is better refined in a pointer which works to our advantage. How many guy's use their shorthairs as duck dogs? And of course, labs as pointer's? When i lived in Montana, I had springer's. Had this one little female that was a super dog. She'd go out to bring in cows with me and in time, she learned to herd them into the holding pen. That sure as h*ll wasn't bred in. On another forum is a guy from eastern Colorado that use's his Blue Heeler as a bird dog. A dog will be what you make it but, their are traits bred into all of then that drive them toward doing certain things.

orbirdhunter · Post by **orbirdhunter** » Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:26 pm

Well, I am think that you judging agd here in oregon at the britt trial in a couple weeks? If so I will show you a rabbit britt like you've never seen......just remember that rabbits count as a double find when judging me

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:40 pm

I will put a note in my judge's book right now...

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:04 pm

Chukar12 wrote:Hunting dogs are a philosophical discipline in my world; I stop just short of calling them my religion. I read vociferously everything I can, hunt every free moment in season, train, judge and trial. Such obsessiveness breeds any number social or mental disorders I am sure. Thankfully I have had a strong upbringing, and it allows me to keep perspective and have a discussion about bird dogs without resorting to arguments with children trying to learn, or blindly ramrodding a single training approach I may have been introduced to, and found success with, in the half a dozen dogs I may have owned. No, I suspect my disorders are different, you see my job here working for The Man thwarts my creative instinct and therefore, with dogs, I want to think outside the box...forgive the 80's business speak.

At a trial this past weekend, and I will name it for you fact checkers; The German Shorthaired Pointer of California Club I saw some things that make me question the monikers we put on dogs. I saw pointing dogs with very diverse instincts. I saw several GSP's (It was their club) and one Viszla that appeared to display natural flushing instincts, they went right in and put a bird or birds in the air, a couple of them even completed a retrieve and a shot was never fired. I saw a Brittany do a fair job of coursing on a hare ( we call em jack rabbits), the same dog pointed, then bumped and chased a coyote; this dog is even a National Amateur Field Champion in the pointing dog world. I believe, philosophically, with enough years and selective breeding we could get most pointing breeds to naturally flush. What are your thoughts?

LOl You had me going for a while.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:16 pm

You demand it, I'll supply it! Fads carry premium prices!!

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:20 pm

That's the best...look at that rascal go
I bet that's what you said, someone harked, "Doug, your dog is under those birds!" Then you said, "Ha, look at that rascal go!"
Then you captured the moment in an 8x10 glossy...

buckeyebowman · Post by **buckeyebowman** » Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:32 pm

DonF wrote:
Wenaha wrote:It doesn't take much to turn a staunch pointing dog into a flusher - just shoot any and all bumped birds... done.

Fact is, it takes some work and discipline to keep a dog staunch if you hunt them much.
I think the man is right on. In fact to make a flusher of a pointing dog on purpose, just put out birds it can catch. I had a guy come to me with a GSP he was given. The people he got it from said it had to much prey drive sand there fore would never point. I don't buy that idea so we took his dog out in a small training field with some pigeon's and in about 15 min we had it pointing. I different word for pointing might work. We installed an longer blink. Do the same thing to a lab and you can get it to point, probably even a springer. Where the problem come's in with a pointing dog that does that is they are bred to run farther out than gun range, so teaching the to flush could be a disaster. Flusher's on the other hand are bred for more obedience and keeping in gun range. Just as a pointer could be kept at heel a flusher could be taught to run. But the instinct to point is better refined in a pointer which works to our advantage. How many guy's use their shorthairs as duck dogs? And of course, labs as pointer's? When i lived in Montana, I had springer's. Had this one little female that was a super dog. She'd go out to bring in cows with me and in time, she learned to herd them into the holding pen. That sure as h*ll wasn't bred in. On another forum is a guy from eastern Colorado that use's his Blue Heeler as a bird dog. A dog will be what you make it but, their are traits bred into all of then that drive them toward doing certain things.

I agree. I was taking my first Springer for a walk (he was about 14 weeks) when he smelled a pheasant rooster hiding in a brier thicket. He locked up into the most classic point you would ever want to see! At my approach the rooster flushed, and the dogs flushing instinct took over and into the thicket he went. Of course, that's the way I worked him, as a flusher, but that image has stuck with me to this day. I sometimes wonder if I worked with him differently, if I could have turned that dog into a pointer.

Furthermore, with chiendog's post in mind about how Europeans don't like "sticky" pointers, wouldn't it make sense, at least for them, to train what are thought of as flushing breeds to point a little? Or maybe a pointing breed to flush a little. Think about it. You go afield with a Springer, it points a bird, you maneuver into position for the shot, command it to flush, and the dog's dominant genes take over. It flushes the bird, you shoot it, the dog retrieves it and everybody's happy! At least I would be, but then I'm hardly what you would call a purist!

As far as a dog being what you make it, when we were kids my buddy, and his brothers, got their German Shepherd named Rinnie (after Rin Tin Tin) to become one heck of a rabbit dog!

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:49 pm

Chukar12 wrote:That's the best...look at that rascal go
I bet that's what you said, someone harked, "Doug, your dog is under those birds!" Then you said, "Ha, look at that rascal go!"
Then you captured the moment in an 8x10 glossy...

I was all alone...I end up hunting alone a lot...can't seem to get anyone to go hunting with me more than once. I think the pace of keeping up with a flushing dog and the long range shooting is too much for 'em.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:44 pm

I have known people who have that problem and they end up getting married and then have to buy their wife a dog from a breed that points. And they lived happily ever after.

Ezzy

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:09 pm

The British guide to spaniel field trial judges still contains words that go something like..." Pointing is to be considered an additional excellence." Some spaniels do point, I have a cocker that quite often but not always does, he does not hold his point for long ...2-3 seconds until he pinpoints the game and then he goes in for a catch if he can . The mere attempt at a catch can get dogs of any breed eliminated from a British field trial. Dogs are there to produce birds for the guns to shoot .....period ! It is the training done to prevent a spaniel catching (pegging) unshot game that gives the impression that British spaniels are slower on the flush than the American ones. This may not be believed but some dogs here used for trialing will put their noses under tight sitting game and almost toss it into the air.

The "pointing is to be considered as an additional excellence" thing is poo-pood by present day spaniel judges here, pointing spaniels are not looked favourably upon..... but it is still in the guide to field trial judges booklet.

It is true that we require all of our pointing dogs of whatever breed to point, hold point , flush on command and do it reasonably quickly and then in the case of pointers and setters lie down (down charge) when the shot is fired. I think this "down charge" is crazy but it is what trial judges want to see and it is traditional for those breeds.
Following a flush and a shot fired an Hpr is expected to stop at once and either sit or remain standing on the spot until commanded to retrieve or to hunt on.

To be honest we think you guys are crazy having a dog that knows where the birds are stand still while the man with the gun tries to kick up birds.

Different strokes for different folks I suppose.

Bill T.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:33 pm

To be honest we think you guys are crazy having a dog that knows where the birds are stand still while the man with the gun tries to kick up birds.

Hey, cmon, I resent that - lumping all of us together as crazy!! Some of us are just stupid!!
https://vimeo.com/53380827

campgsp · Post by **campgsp** » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:01 pm

Trekmoor wrote:
To be honest we think you guys are crazy having a dog that knows where the birds are stand still while the man with the gun tries to kick up birds. Different strokes for different folks I suppose.

Bill T.

Our odds of a fresh clean kill are a lot better then with a dog flushing every bird in sight.

Now who's the crazy ones??

clink83 · Post by **clink83** » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:50 pm

I would be pretty happy to hunt over a setter that crouched like an old time dog. That would be something worth seeing at least once.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:32 pm

Chukar12 wrote:I will put a note in my judge's book right now...

Your coming up for the April trial? See ya there. Club dog of the year awards is Friday before the trial at Gino's Italian Grill in Madras. Start's at 6:30 dinner at 7.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:09 am

DGFavor wrote:
To be honest we think you guys are crazy having a dog that knows where the birds are stand still while the man with the gun tries to kick up birds.
Hey, cmon, I resent that - lumping all of us together as crazy!! Some of us are just stupid!!
https://vimeo.com/53380827

What happened ? Did you trip over your own feet ? I do that a lot if I try to make a film of a dog working. :roll: The dog worked well though !

Bill T.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:53 am

Trekmoor wrote:To be honest we think you guys are crazy having a dog that knows where the birds are stand still while the man with the gun tries to kick up birds. Different strokes for different folks I suppose.

Bill T.

This gave me a good laugh, you should see some of the tests and call backs at trials, man with the gun sprints in circles chasing bird in an attempt to get it to take it's maiden flight so he can vaporize it the moment it leaves the ground, then you throw a dead bird so your dog has something to retrieve.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:59 am

clink83 wrote:I would be pretty happy to hunt over a setter that crouched like an old time dog. That would be something worth seeing at least once.

Just find a bad trainer who is hard with his dogs.

Gordon Guy · Post by **Gordon Guy** » Thu Mar 28, 2013 1:37 pm

Winchey wrote:
clink83 wrote:I would be pretty happy to hunt over a setter that crouched like an old time dog. That would be something worth seeing at least once.
Just find a bad trainer who is hard with his dogs.

Not necessarily! I have a dog that is very cautious around birds. I was hunting Huns on a very windy day and birds/covey's were pretty wild and to add to his frustration he bumped a bird or two. Several times flushing before the dog even smelled them, but yet close enough for him to see and causing 3 or 4 stop to flushes. And no I didn't use an e-collar on him. He's never laid down on point before, but on the next contact my dog laid down and I flushed the birds from in front of him. He must have thought that the birds stayed put as a response to him laying down because he laid down on the next two finds. Now everytime I take him back to that spot he lays down on point. I can walk just across the road and he'll stand for his birds. Funny things happen sometimes.

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:31 pm

That's a smart dog!

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:02 pm

One time 'ol Stitchyboy was off on one of his walkabouts and tele gave me a point signal. I was on a nice, big flat CRP ridge and could see down thru a small canyon and across to the flat top on the other side - it was wide open...but I couldn't see him anywhere. I tracked down thru the canyon and on up to the big flat on the other side getting a booming signal when I topped out. I tracked...and tracked...10-15" easy - I kind of made a toilet bowl swirly pattern in circles honing in on a spot with the tracker but I just couldn't see him even though it was just sparse crested wheat grass. I thought maybe his collar had fallen off. I was on the horse with a good view and just kept swirling in on the signal and suddenly there he was sprawled out on the ground with his hind legs straight out behind and front legs out in front of him, head against the ground and eyes bugging out. A covey of about a dozen huns exploded probably two feet from his face. You could see in the dirt his skid marks where he must have done a baseball slide into 'em...then I guess they all just stared at each other till I come along. Was pretty cool - crazy 'ol man, 13yo and still giving me grief!!

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:19 pm

Wenaha wrote:It doesn't take much to turn a staunch pointing dog into a flusher - just shoot any and all bumped birds... done.

Fact is, it takes some work and discipline to keep a dog staunch if you hunt them much.

Have you done that? Or is it your theory, shared by many, but have you taken a well trained pointing dog and got it to knock every bird just from shooting?

I do not believe being staunch has anything to do with shooting birds, I have never bought the retrieve is the reward, finding the bird is the only reward a dog needs.

Wenaha · Post by **Wenaha** » Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:44 pm

Neil wrote:
Wenaha wrote:It doesn't take much to turn a staunch pointing dog into a flusher - just shoot any and all bumped birds... done.

Fact is, it takes some work and discipline to keep a dog staunch if you hunt them much.
Have you done that? Or is it your theory, shared by many, but have you taken a well trained pointing dog and got it to knock every bird just from shooting?

I do not believe being staunch has anything to do with shooting birds, I have never bought the retrieve is the reward, finding the bird is the only reward a dog needs.

I think the dogs love to see the bird fall at the shot, and this is the trigger. I have seen it over and over. If you shoot bumped birds, most dogs are going to anticipate and see if they can get another step in towards the birds. They end up flushing the birds and the handler gets excited and shoots 'em. Step and repeat.

I almost succeeded in 'unbreaking' one of my setters as well. Too much hunting and not enough enforcement. I would have to get on him after every hunting season to shape up his manners. He was staunch as a post and never busted birds, but he would go with the shot after 20 or 30 birds had been shot over him. My discipline was what I would call "uneven". I never ask my pointing dogs to retrieve, but some of them do it naturally. If you trial a dog that is broke to retrieve you can get flagging on point and/or 'delayed chase' after the flush and shot. Ask me how I know.

mask · Post by **mask** » Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:50 pm

Wenaha wrote:
Neil wrote:
Wenaha wrote:It doesn't take much to turn a staunch pointing dog into a flusher - just shoot any and all bumped birds... done.

Fact is, it takes some work and discipline to keep a dog staunch if you hunt them much.
Have you done that? Or is it your theory, shared by many, but have you taken a well trained pointing dog and got it to knock every bird just from shooting?

I do not believe being staunch has anything to do with shooting birds, I have never bought the retrieve is the reward, finding the bird is the only reward a dog needs.
I have seen it over and over. Shoot bumped biords and most dogs are going to see if they can get another step in towards the birds. They end up flushing the birds and the handler gets excited and shoots 'em. Step and repeat.

I almost succeeded in 'unbreaking' one of my setters as well. Too much hunting and not enough enforcement. I would have to get on him after every hunting season to shape up his manners. He was staunch as a post and never busted birds, but he would go with the sghot after 20 or 30 birds had been shot over him. I never ask my pointing dogs to retrieve, but some do naturally.

It has everything to do with indiscriminate shooting of birds, add three or four people shooting and other dogs breaking and it just gets worse. A good pointer stands untill you flush the birds, end of story.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Thu Mar 28, 2013 7:06 pm

My point is simple, you must reinforce staunchness at all times, it has nothing to do with shooting or retrieving. I am not saying your dogs are staunch, but if they are not, you need to look at your training program, not if unpointed birds are shot.

Wenaha · Post by **Wenaha** » Thu Mar 28, 2013 7:57 pm

Neil wrote:My point is simple... you need to look at your training program, not if unpointed birds are shot.

My point exactly, but all dogwork has a training impact. If you shoot bumped birds, you are telling your dog that you are willing to tolerate flushing.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Thu Mar 28, 2013 8:18 pm

[
quote="Wenaha"]

Neil wrote:My point is simple... you need to look at your training program, not if unpointed birds are shot.

My point exactly, but all dogwork has a training impact. If you shoot bumped birds, you are telling your dog that you are willing to tolerate flushing.[/quote]

Shooting birds tells the dog nothing, correcting the dog tells him what I need him to know.

I have a couple hundred field trial wins that says my dogs are staunch and steady to wing and shot, maybe they are just smart enough to realize that they don't have to stay broke, regardless to what happens around them.

Wenaha · Post by **Wenaha** » Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:55 am

Shooting birds tells the dog nothing, correcting the dog tells him what I need him to know.

This is specious. If what you say is true, we would never have to shoot a bird for a dog when training.

I have a couple hundred field trial wins that says my dogs are staunch and steady to wing and shot, maybe they are just smart enough to realize that they don't have to stay broke, regardless to what happens around them.

You are the only one talking about your dogs. I know nothing about your dogs, and never implied that I did.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:01 am

I think I can see where you are coming from Neil, not really in a position to agree or disagree, but it makes sense. But it is pretty tough to correct a dog for bumping a bird and kill the bird at the same time. Someone should invent a e collar button built into a gun you can operate with your thumb lol.

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:26 am

Winchey wrote:I think I can see where you are coming from Neil, not really in a position to agree or disagree, but it makes sense. But it is pretty tough to correct a dog for bumping a bird and kill the bird at the same time. Someone should invent a e collar button built into a gun you can operate with your thumb lol.

Shoot with one hand!

clink83 · Post by **clink83** » Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:27 pm

Winchey wrote:I think I can see where you are coming from Neil, not really in a position to agree or disagree, but it makes sense. But it is pretty tough to correct a dog for bumping a bird and kill the bird at the same time. Someone should invent a e collar button built into a gun you can operate with your thumb lol.

someone did!

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Fri Mar 29, 2013 2:19 pm

What you guys are missing is there are thousands of dogs that have never had a bird shot for them, have never had a bird in their mouths, that hunt and find birds with great intensity. Not just field trial dogs, but also plantation dogs with dedicated retrievers.

I hunt my dogs and they do retrieve, and we often shot unpointed birds. I only mention my field trial wins to prove my dogs are staunch and sready.

The retrieve is not the reward, if I did not hunt there would never be a need to kill a bird in training.

Oh, Sometimes I am a gunless dog trainer, so it is easy to correct the dog, other times I am pretty quick to get to the botton after the shot. But most times no correction should be needed, they are supposed to stop to flush. It does not matter what put the dog to flight, the dog's fault, my fault, just a wild flush, they are to stop.

There are lots of pointers that knock birds, but it has nothing to do with shooting, and everything to do with training.

Wenaha · Post by **Wenaha** » Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:35 pm

I distinguish between STAUNCH and STEADY (as in broke - steady to wing, shot, and fall).

The staunch dog stands his birds without creeping or breaking to flush.

The steady dog stands after the flush, shot and fall -- until released. These dogs are trained to 'stop to flush'. Stop to flush happens AFTER the flush.

I have heard of field trial dogs that have never had a bird shot over them. Don't think I have ever seen one, though. As for plantation dogs that have never had a bird shot over them - these dogs are hunting and the hunters shoot the birds, right?

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:49 pm

Wenaha wrote:I distinguish between STAUNCH and STEADY (as in broke - steady to wing, shot, and fall).

The staunch dog stands his birds without creeping or breaking to flush.

The steady dog stands after the flush, shot and fall -- until released. These dogs are trained to 'stop to flush'. Stop to flush happens AFTER the flush.

I have heard of field trial dogs that have never had a bird shot over them. Don't think I have ever seen one, though. As for plantation dogs that have never had a bird shot over them - these dogs are hunting and the hunters shoot the birds, right?

I agree with your terminalogy, except you seem to be saying a dog is only required to be steady (and stop to flush) after he has been staunch. Not true, anytime a bird is put to flight for whatever reason, he is to honor it by stopping.

Yes, thousands of birds are shot over good plantation dogs, but many are not allowed to retrieve, never have their mouth on a bird.

I think we have reached a point where we are arguing just to argue.

Jrclmn18 · Post by **Jrclmn18** » Fri Mar 29, 2013 6:09 pm

DonF wrote:A dog will be what you make it but, their are traits bred into all of then that drive them toward doing certain things.

Great line.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Fri Mar 29, 2013 6:51 pm

While thinking about allowing a field trial dog to retrieve, I was reminded of Hall of Famer John Rex Gates' response in an interview, "Neil, if you are talking about having some birds for the table, you best have the jaws of life with you".

Neil

Wenaha · Post by **Wenaha** » Fri Mar 29, 2013 7:26 pm

Neil wrote:I agree with your terminalogy, except you seem to be saying a dog is only required to be steady (and stop to flush) after he has been staunch. Not true, anytime a bird is put to flight for whatever reason, he is to honor it by stopping.

...I think we have reached a point where we are arguing just to argue.

No. I didn't say that, any dog should stop to flush whether he flushed the bird, or his bracemate flushed it, or it just happened to flush or fly by. But I agree with your last line. I'll just leave it at that.