Hawk problems

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Gertie
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Re: Hawk problems

Post by Gertie » Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:32 am

KCBrittfan wrote:
Gertie wrote: I just did a random sampling of the raptor population index website and, with a very few exceptions, the trend is toward declining populations, particularly for accipiters. Check it out for yourself. http://rpi-project.org/2011/graphs.php?rsite=601
ezzy333 wrote: I have not researched the numbers but I do know that the pigeon flyers are seeing more and losing more pigeons to them every year and that is the report across the country. . . .
. . . The first bird I ever lost to hawk at the loft was 5 years ago and since then every year. It now appears that hawks are the major cause of losses during the races across the country and it a leading concern the industry has today.

We have two hunting clubs nearby and their losses from hawks is becoming a major factor for them. One of the clubs use to order 300 pheasants and unload them directly into their cover fields. Had to stop because the hawks were catching over half of them.

Ezzy.
From these 2 posts it seems that Ezzy's anecdotal evidence and the study Gertie cites are at odds. However, it is very possible that both are correct.

Statistics must always be considered very, very carefully.

Gertie's study showing the decline in raptor numbers does not take into account the decline in habitat over the same time period. If habitat declined faster than the raptor population went down, then raptor density actually increased. When animal density reaches a certain point, the animals often start behaving in ways they wouldn't normally. Increased boldness around humans and their activities may be one such abnormal behavior caused by excessive population density.

Keep in mind that my comments on habitat decline being greater than raptor decline are only hypothetical "food for thought." I have no idea, and make no claims, about the actual habitat numbers.

I found the study Gertie cited (thank you for finding and sharing it) to be interesting. It might be even more interesting if habitat factors were considered alongside the data collected.

To the original poster: I wonder if the "pigeon spikes" used by pest control companies to keep pigeons from sitting on undesireable perches would work on hawks? I know your pigeons need a landing perch, but perhaps you could make it fold down when not expecting incoming birds.

Interesting thoughts. Without doing a bunch of number crunching and data mining, my hunch is that, given the time that surveys have taken place (most from about 1995) and the overall decline in populations (most seemed to be in -1 to -3% range), there is likely a relationship between habitat loss and population decline. Meaning simply that there has probably been about 1-3% overall loss of habitat over the survey period (15-20 yrs) and the population trend is reflecting that loss. I am certainly not stating that this is the case but it seems like a reasonable correlation.

Predators are a tricky subject. They're not easy to live with and a lot of folks would rather just do away with them. It becomes a societal decision as to what is ethical and to what degree the ecological function of an given area should be managed. It's not my business to express my opinion one way or the other as far as that goes but, as with all things when it comes to living adjacent to and venturing into relatively 'wild' areas, there are inherent risks to the safety of people, dogs, livestock, etc. So the question then becomes how much management should be done to ensure that everybody is happy with the degree of risk they and theirs are exposed to? If you can come up with the answer to that question then my hat's off to you.

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Re: Hawk problems

Post by KCBrittfan » Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:48 pm

Gertie wrote: Interesting thoughts. Without doing a bunch of number crunching and data mining, my hunch is that, given the time that surveys have taken place (most from about 1995) and the overall decline in populations (most seemed to be in -1 to -3% range), there is likely a relationship between habitat loss and population decline. Meaning simply that there has probably been about 1-3% overall loss of habitat over the survey period (15-20 yrs) and the population trend is reflecting that loss. I am certainly not stating that this is the case but it seems like a reasonable correlation.

Predators are a tricky subject. They're not easy to live with and a lot of folks would rather just do away with them. It becomes a societal decision as to what is ethical and to what degree the ecological function of an given area should be managed. It's not my business to express my opinion one way or the other as far as that goes but, as with all things when it comes to living adjacent to and venturing into relatively 'wild' areas, there are inherent risks to the safety of people, dogs, livestock, etc. So the question then becomes how much management should be done to ensure that everybody is happy with the degree of risk they and theirs are exposed to? If you can come up with the answer to that question then my hat's off to you.
No way can I come up with an answer to that question. Large societal questions are probably best left to large numbers of people; however, I do feel the opinions of those closest to the issue should be given a lot more weight. There are too many citidiots making descisions for those who live in the country (For what its worth: I may live in the city, but I've spent hundreds, if not thousands, of days at my uncle's house in the country. He had no children and was the only real father figure we knew. I owe a large chunk of my knowledge and love of the outdoors to him. I often wish he was still alive to weigh in on issues like this.)

Of course there is a relationship between population and habitat numbers. You mention the percentages of raptor decline and habitat decline during that period are likely to be the same. You may very well be correct. I would just like some real data because my observations have lead me to believe habitat loss has far out paced the decline in raptor numbers. I know it is not scientific (thus the call for more data), but I've seen far more hawks in the city the last ten years than ever before. Additionally, the numbers of miles I drove in the city during that time frame were drastically reduced; consequently, my city hawk sightings should have gone down not up. My guess is that raptors are adapting to life around people, thus their numbers are not decreasing as fast as their original habitat is.

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Re: Hawk problems

Post by nikegundog » Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:48 pm

Not a hawk problem but a certainly a bird of prey.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pecV8i8M2J0

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Re: Hawk problems

Post by AZ Brittany Guy » Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:35 am

KCBrittfan,

I have heard a lot of people say the same thing. I think Raptors are evolving like the coyote in respect to adapting to the environment. Peregrine falcons are reported in our cities frequently. It is said their prey of choice is pigeons.

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Re: Hawk problems

Post by DonF » Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:27 am

I haven't seen the number of hawks around here this year that I normally do. Saw one a few weeks ago but it left and hasn't been back. They come and land on telephone poles near my pigeon coops. When they show up I lock in the pigeons and let them use the flight pen until the hawks are gone. Between Madras and Redmond I have been seeing a lot of hawks this year. Sure glad I don't live there.

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Re: Hawk problems

Post by bonasa » Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:41 am

I don't road fly my birds between September and April. I will loft fly up to 1 mile away tho but only during midday on good clear days. Hawks still get birds but not as many during early morning or late evening. Remember there are two types of hawks accipiters (bird eaters) and buteos (mammal eaters) also falcons, eagles and owls the at times all take birds. Red tails are slower and they are buteos they will take opportunistic birds but you won't see them cruising for ruffed grouse, put and take pheasant yes. Coopers and sharpies are a big problem for pigeons and grouse. Once the passerine songbirds migrate th food sources are limited for Cooper's hawks such as titmice, juncos, and chickadees , given the choice I'd hang around an area where some guy free flies his pigeons everyday. During migration you will see kettles (flocks) of raptors migrating by the tens if not hundreds, big kettles look intimidating but their metabolism slows down and don't feed as much as you think. There are also irruptive migrations such as the influx of snowy owls in the area now and goshawks + more Cooper's hawks from up north. These spatial migrants are shifting their habitats from an area lean with resources to an area rich in their required resources.These are young of the year birds that have a depleted food supply in their natal habitat and are literally starving , most do not survive the journey due to their emaciated state. If you have a preserve, Jonny house or pigeon loft and use the birds during times with a lack of native forage keep in mind you may have loses due to an emaciated, Ill equipped malnourished raptor that is better off succumbing to starvation than your kindly offered handouts.

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Re: Hawk problems

Post by hyperb » Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:40 pm

Really disappointing to see so many would rather have non-native captive pigeons than wild native American hawks. Easy answers are to cover your pigeon cage, get some shiny fladry, and get those pigeon spikes you see on buildings. Works for hawks too. Alternatively you can rant about the govt but I'm not sure that will be much help.

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Re: Hawk problems

Post by mask » Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:03 pm

Here you can get a permit to live trap birds of prey and relocate them. I don't know if this is still the case but if it is you might check with your federal game warden. I happen to believe a person has the right to protect their livestock. How one goes about it is up to them. :wink:

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Re: Hawk problems

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:24 pm

mask wrote:Here you can get a permit to live trap birds of prey and relocate them. I don't know if this is still the case but if it is you might check with your federal game warden. I happen to believe a person has the right to protect their livestock. How one goes about it is up to them. :wink:

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Re: Hawk problems

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:37 pm

hyperb wrote:Really disappointing to see so many would rather have non-native captive pigeons than wild native American hawks. Easy answers are to cover your pigeon cage, get some shiny fladry, and get those pigeon spikes you see on buildings. Works for hawks too. Alternatively you can rant about the govt but I'm not sure that will be much help.
I don't know of a single person wanting to get rid of our wild native hawks. And it is not an easy answer to cover our pigeons as they are covered. Spikes do not work well for hawks or any bird that sits in trees. I as well as many other people are concerned when a law is written that says you can not protect your private property. Other laws about nuisance animals or birds have a clause that provides for personal property protection. And lastly, our non native captive pigeons are just as important to us as our non-native horses, pheasants, chukar, dogs, and wives or husbands. They are ours and we should have the right to protect them from any predator that is not doing it's thing out in the wild rather than on our property. We shoot wolves, bears, cats, coyotes, deer, and other forms of wildlife when it starts interfering with us and our property.

When laws are not reasonable they get broken and I hate to see that happen.

Ezzy

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Re: Hawk problems

Post by cjhills » Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:09 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
hyperb wrote:Really disappointing to see so many would rather have non-native captive pigeons than wild native American hawks. Easy answers are to cover your pigeon cage, get some shiny fladry, and get those pigeon spikes you see on buildings. Works for hawks too. Alternatively you can rant about the govt but I'm not sure that will be much help.
I don't know of a single person wanting to get rid of our wild native hawks. And it is not an easy answer to cover our pigeons as they are covered. Spikes do not work well for hawks or any bird that sits in trees. I as well as many other people are concerned when a law is written that says you can not protect your private property. Other laws about nuisance animals or birds have a clause that provides for personal property protection. And lastly, our non native captive pigeons are just as important to us as our non-native horses, pheasants, chukar, dogs, and wives or husbands. They are ours and we should have the right to protect them from any predator that is not doing it's thing out in the wild rather than on our property. We shoot wolves, bears, cats, coyotes, deer, and other forms of wildlife when it starts interfering with us and our property.

When laws are not reasonable they get broken and I hate to see that happen.

Ezzy
My wife is a bit more important to me than my pigeons. I think I would shoot a hawk if it tried to get her.....................Cj

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Re: Hawk problems

Post by Grange » Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:58 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
hyperb wrote:Really disappointing to see so many would rather have non-native captive pigeons than wild native American hawks. Easy answers are to cover your pigeon cage, get some shiny fladry, and get those pigeon spikes you see on buildings. Works for hawks too. Alternatively you can rant about the govt but I'm not sure that will be much help.
I don't know of a single person wanting to get rid of our wild native hawks. And it is not an easy answer to cover our pigeons as they are covered. Spikes do not work well for hawks or any bird that sits in trees. I as well as many other people are concerned when a law is written that says you can not protect your private property. Other laws about nuisance animals or birds have a clause that provides for personal property protection. And lastly, our non native captive pigeons are just as important to us as our non-native horses, pheasants, chukar, dogs, and wives or husbands. They are ours and we should have the right to protect them from any predator that is not doing it's thing out in the wild rather than on our property. We shoot wolves, bears, cats, coyotes, deer, and other forms of wildlife when it starts interfering with us and our property.

When laws are not reasonable they get broken and I hate to see that happen.

Ezzy
Man that is a heck of an analogy. I guess when someone's forced to break the law as you said they can just claim the law is not reasonable.

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Re: Hawk problems

Post by DonF » Mon Jan 13, 2014 6:10 pm

My guess is that there are a bunch on here that don't keep pigeons or game birds around.

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Re: Hawk problems

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:16 pm

DonF wrote:My guess is that there are a bunch on here that don't keep pigeons or game birds around.

You can usually tell whose ox is being gored

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Re: Hawk problems

Post by hyperb » Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:53 pm

I'd offer some science-based information to support my assertions but it might get me banned on this "forum". Free speech seems to be the one Amendment that doesn't enjoy the full support of our moderators.

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Re: Hawk problems

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:42 am

hyperb wrote:I'd offer some science-based information to support my assertions but it might get me banned on this "forum". Free speech seems to be the one Amendment that doesn't enjoy the full support of our moderators.
I have never seen anyone banned if they followed the rules they agreed to when they registered to be part of the forum. That being said those of us that are having the hawk problems are well documented and science-based information probably won't help relieve it. The hawks I have seen attack the birds in the yard can not read I am sure as I have "No Trespassing" signs posted. And the losses we have during the races are completely out of our control. I have spent many years living with and getting along well with many different raptors but we are presently seeing such an increase that it is getting out of balance and people are needing some relieve when we lose birds worth hundreds up to thousands of dollars every time we release them into our natural environment. And my concern is that the only way to control the situation is give up our long-standing hobby and sport or become a common crook and kill them when they venture into our habitat like they do every other animal that becomes a serious problem. Neither solution appeals to me, regardless of scientific studies or solutions by someone that does not fully understand the problem due to living in a different environment.

Ezzy

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Re: Hawk problems

Post by topher40 » Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:45 pm

hyperb wrote:I'd offer some science-based information to support my assertions but it might get me banned on this "forum". Free speech seems to be the one Amendment that doesn't enjoy the full support of our moderators.
I hate to be the one to tell you, but Free speech doesn't apply on a privately held forum. Just ask Phil Robertson, he exercised his Free Speech but was still subject to the privately held company that employs him. Like Ezzy said, follow the rules you agreed to follow when you signed up and you wont have any problems. I get really tired when people bash the moderators for enforcing rules that each and every person agreed to follow. Same thing that happened in the "housing crisis" people agreed to outrageous terms for a mortgage and then got their panties in a wad when they had to follow them. (Glad I got that off my chest, I am stepping off my soapbox for now :lol: )

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Re: Hawk problems

Post by hyperb » Wed Jan 15, 2014 5:42 pm

You're absolutely right, this is a private website and they have every right to put up whatever they want. But let's not pretend you won't find plenty of examples of one kind of political perspective on these discussions, but not a lot of others. A shame because we all seem to share a common interest and pretty much want the same thing, and good solutions come from all sorts of places.

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Hawk problems

Post by Frankug » Wed Jan 15, 2014 7:21 pm

Don't have pigeons, but have had chickens free range. Have heard of CDs never used it though, heard they worked. I have used fishing line strung above coop and part of the barnyard. Hawks would not go near it. Sounds crazy, but saw it at the beach at an out door cafe. They had strung it above the cafe to keep seagulls away. It worked on seagulls. I tried it on hawks and chickens. It helped in the areas where I had the line. My chickens had run of whole farm and would still get killed outside of safe area. I can't believe I am going to say this but I think the chickens learned where it was safe. Chicken learned, never thought I would put that in a sentence! Anyway try fishing line. Might only move your hawk back a little farther back though.

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Re: Hawk problems

Post by birddogger » Wed Jan 15, 2014 8:01 pm

hyperb wrote:You're absolutely right, this is a private website and they have every right to put up whatever they want. But let's not pretend you won't find plenty of examples of one kind of political perspective on these discussions, but not a lot of others. A shame because we all seem to share a common interest and pretty much want the same thing, and good solutions come from all sorts of places.
Then don't participate. There are plenty of other sites that share your political views and agenda. :wink:

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Re: Hawk problems

Post by Bounty_Hunter » Sat Feb 01, 2014 8:36 pm

There is going to be a HAWK problem in NJ tomorrow. Hope those DENVER boys can handle it... :mrgreen:

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Re: Hawk problems

Post by RayGubernat » Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:06 am

Gertie wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:I am not suggesting anyone break the law but I am saying the law is flawed. Does it seem strange you can protect your property from humans, dogs, deer, cats, wolves, but not from our over supply of hawks and falcons? When their numbers were low I understood but they have recovered and are now being allowed to over populate and that means some other bird is being threatened but that is OK. Historically we have always allowed the pendulum to swing too far to both sides before we do anything about it and we never seem to learn.

Ezzy
By whose estimation do we have a hawk over-population problem?
I would say that the recently cited McDivitt case is proof aplenty that there is no current endangerment to raptors in THAT geographic area. Her farm is on the order of 200 acres and the state had evidence that her hired man killed something in excess of 100 birds on that property. And that was more than ten years ago. Methinks the population of raptors has not gone down in the interim.

However, I do think that the protections should stay in place for raptors. If they were to be relaxed, the populations would plummet once again, because folks would start exterminating them in the mistaken belief that this would fix the problem.

Habitat restoration, ground nesting predator control, licensing of cats and clear regulations on the extermination of feral cats will make far more of a positive impact on the populations of avian, and other prey species. Keep in mind that the principal diet of raptors is, in most areas, rats, mice and carrion. Snakes are also a ground nesting predator, but without snakes, we would be overrun with rodents.

Balance is good, but man seems always to want to warp and destroy that balance...and then bitch and moan about it.

RayG

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Re: Hawk problems

Post by DonF » Sun Feb 02, 2014 9:56 am

Hard for me to believe but I've only seen one hawk this winter so far.

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Re: Hawk problems

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Feb 02, 2014 3:07 pm

DonF wrote:Hard for me to believe but I've only seen one hawk this winter so far.
I have only seen a couple this winter but my birds haven't been out plus it is so cold I am sure they moved further south this year. But they will be back in a few weeks and then the fun begins all over again. Last year our pigeon club members lost at least 40 birds in their own yard and we have no idea how many on the races or training tosses. Two members recorded Cooper's at their loft practically everyday. Like I said before I hate to see a law written that almost forces you to break it and that is what is happening with some of the people who are spending thousands of dollars on their birds and are relying on them for a living.

Ezzy

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Re: Hawk problems

Post by hi-tailyn » Sun Feb 02, 2014 3:20 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
DonF wrote:Hard for me to believe but I've only seen one hawk this winter so far.
I have only seen a couple this winter but my birds haven't been out plus it is so cold I am sure they moved further south this year. But they will be back in a few weeks and then the fun begins all over again. Last year our pigeon club members lost at least 40 birds in their own yard and we have no idea how many on the races or training tosses. Two members recorded Cooper's at their loft practically everyday. Like I said before I hate to see a law written that almost forces you to break it and that is what is happening with some of the people who are spending thousands of dollars on their birds and are relying on them for a living.

Ezzy
They are all down here in TX. :lol: For a fee I can make them all stay here. :lol: :lol:

It is the cooper hawks that hit us the hardest. The red tails and other broad wing hawks take some weak pigeons and quail, but they really help with the rodents and young skunks and such. I'm willing to put up with the larger, slower hawks, but those coopers and pure killers on some of my fastest quail, chuckars and my best homers.

Can't wait till it warms up and they head North.

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Re: Hawk problems

Post by muleskinner » Sun Feb 02, 2014 4:50 pm

I'm a little amazed at the time and space this has taken up...I don't shoot, trap, or otherwise harass hawks, owls, eagles, or other predators. However, if I had a problem with one, I wouldn't waste time by debating the issue. I would deal with it and keep my mouth shut! Seems like we have come to the place where we don't know what to do unless someone else gives us instructions. Deal with it and move on.

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Re: Hawk problems

Post by DonF » Sun Feb 02, 2014 5:15 pm

HUH! Saw my second one this winter today. The sucker should have know better than to get into the chicken house. Squirt and Bodie routinely evict everything from there that is not a chicken! They weren't to awfully gentle this time either. I don't think it will be back!

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Re: Hawk problems

Post by bonasa » Fri Mar 14, 2014 1:47 am

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/200 ... igeon.html

Found this link on another forum. Interesting about "white backs".

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Re: Hawk problems

Post by Neil » Fri Mar 14, 2014 5:48 am

Most of the bob white mortality studies.show on average 1/3 mamillian, 1/3 avian, and 1/3 undetermined. Anecdotally, the undertermined is really unproven, but suspected to be avian.

Some of the larger private plantations in the bob white range have shown an increase in quail with a decline in avian predators; whereas studies on public land shows the reverse. I am not saying that there is unlawful predator control taking place on private lands, necessarily. But reportedly Ms. McDermit was most successful in re-establishing quail and something is going on.

I would really prefer that our scientists be unencumbered with political bias, but in so many emotionally charge areas (such as avian preadtors) that does not seem to be the case.

Neil

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Post by birddog1968 » Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:07 am

She wasnt re establishing anything....her small place is the last farm ( I use the term loosely) in a sea of suburban sprawl. The hawks were killing her birds in the pens as much as out. I know first hand. She also had rats killing quite a few birds and was calling those hawk kills too.

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Re:

Post by Neil » Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:55 am

birddog1968 wrote:She wasnt re establishing anything....her small place is the last farm ( I use the term loosely) in a sea of suburban sprawl. The hawks were killing her birds in the pens as much as out. I know first hand. She also had rats killing quite a few birds and was calling those hawk kills too.
OK, I am not sure that correction refutes my point.

I have a poor memory, but I thought Jim Heckert told me that she had 100+ acres and enough birds to train on.

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Post by birddog1968 » Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:36 am

Not to argue because this is now an old case. But 100 acres isn't enough ground to re establish a viable quail population, especially where she's located. She is the aunt of a friend and old business partner of mine and I guided quail hunts for the fella that took one of her dogs to a win at the nationals in CA. I won't say anything personal about her except the whole experience ended up being a positive thing in her life. But killing 171 hawks ( the area is a major migratory stopover) had or would of had no real positive effect for gamebirds.

Also don't read into my post my position on hawks ;)

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Re:

Post by Neil » Fri Mar 14, 2014 12:01 pm

birddog1968 wrote:Not to argue because this is now an old case. But 100 acres isn't enough ground to re establish a viable quail population, especially where she's located. She is the aunt of a friend and old business partner of mine and I guided quail hunts for the fella that took one of her dogs to a win at the nationals in CA. I won't say anything personal about her except the whole experience ended up being a positive thing in her life. But killing 171 hawks ( the area is a major migratory stopover) had or would of had no real positive effect for gamebirds.
Great, let's not argue.

If you take a graph of the raptor increase since the DDT ban of 1972 and overlay one of quail decline, you will see hawks go up over 750% as the quail drop by 75%, the lines go in almost exactly opposite directions.

Now I am well aware there are many other significant causes for quail decline; fire ant, mammalian, disease, habitat loss, etc. And I am happy to see the raptors make a comeback; there is a connection.

I tire of small game biologists recommending habitat improvement as the only answer, while I watched the Ames plantation spend millions on 20,000 acres with little success. Yet the SE plantations have made inroads.

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Post by birddog1968 » Fri Mar 14, 2014 12:12 pm

I surely don't disagree there is some correlation, just not on her place. Concrete and blacktop and total development are the causes in that area.

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Re: Hawk problems

Post by Nutmeg247 » Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:38 pm

Very interesting thread. At one time, I spent a lot of time in an area on a turkey vulture migration route, and while predation of any sort didn't seem to be an issue, property values were. Seems when they took a liking to someone's roof, just the inevitable byproducts of 20 turkey vultures sitting on your roof could quickly "mount up" and degrade a home. This was what you might call normally a very "progressive" area, probably generated some funding for Greenpeace, etc. But, vulture tolerance worked down to a remarkable low.

As far as the increase in raptors correlating to the decline in quail, I do note that the deer population increased for at least the first 25 years or so of the same time period, too. And, I doubt deer numbers are directly causal in relation to quail. Obviously raptors take their share, but predators seem normally to be trailing indicators? And, other raptor prey species also increased in the same areas.

Because I personally am not good at id'ing raptor species quickly without referencing a book and then looking back up at the bird, I wonder whether others share this issue? I'm not the best at id'ing species in general, but have found, say, pike vs muskie and coyote vs wolf vs dog pretty easy in comparison. If people on average can be confident in what they're looking at, that could give one answer for future legislation, whereas if species are easily confused that could give another. Mountaineer I think was the first in the thread to mention this issue, sorry if I am not mentioning someone else as well.

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Re: Hawk problems

Post by Neil » Fri Mar 14, 2014 11:50 pm

You are right.

The number of of car accident deaths went down and the number of computers went up in the same period.

You are so right about identification, Grandma called them all chicken hawks as she reached for her shotgun.

I do know the Cooper's hawk and the other small rapters eat a lot of song and game birds, and most small game biologists will not acknowledge it.

Hey, I don't have an answer, cause I want to have both birds of prey and their prey, quail.

But the answer is not habtat.

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Post by birddog1968 » Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:14 am

Turkeys do a number on nests I've heard tell....and most wildlife agencies here in the east cater to the money and deer and turkey seem to be money game for those agencies.

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Re: Hawk problems

Post by Deets » Sun Mar 16, 2014 10:16 pm

Gertie wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:I am not suggesting anyone break the law but I am saying the law is flawed. Does it seem strange you can protect your property from humans, dogs, deer, cats, wolves, but not from our over supply of hawks and falcons? When their numbers were low I understood but they have recovered and are now being allowed to over populate and that means some other bird is being threatened but that is OK. Historically we have always allowed the pendulum to swing too far to both sides before we do anything about it and we never seem to learn.

Ezzy
By whose estimation do we have a hawk over-population problem?
When I see more hawks than I see quail, I say we have a over-population problem.

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Re:

Post by jack the dog » Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:14 am

birddog1968 wrote:Turkeys do a number on nests I've heard tell....and most wildlife agencies here in the east cater to the money and deer and turkey seem to be money game for those agencies.

10000+ on this.

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Re: Hawk problems

Post by Neil » Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:22 am

Hawks arec up by 750%, most studies show they account for 30 to 70% of quai and songbird mortality.

As the title says - HAWK PROBLEMS.

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Re: Hawk problems

Post by RoostersMom » Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:52 am

The number one nest predator for quail in Missouri is the black rat snake. In the Southeast, it's the grey rat snake. They take out entire nests at a time.

What do you think the main predator for rat snakes are?

I'll give you a hint, it flies!

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Re: Hawk problems

Post by Neil » Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:30 am

RoostersMom wrote:The number one nest predator for quail in Missouri is the black rat snake. In the Southeast, it's the grey rat snake. They take out entire nests at a time.

What do you think the main predator for rat snakes are?

I'll give you a hint, it flies!
I do not recall a study that showed snakes a significant nest predator, Ames found that snakes ate few eggs, mostly just rolled the eggs around, so the hen moved on down the trail and kept laying. When eaten by a hawk, they never lay another egg, ever. Total nest predation is less than 1/3 of total.

Claiming hawks are beneficial based on the few snakes they might eat is a reach.

But big hawks eat snakes, little hawks eat birds.

If we continue to ignore the small hawks proliferation, the Bob White is going to be extinct in most of its range, never to return.

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Re: Hawk problems

Post by RoostersMom » Mon Mar 17, 2014 11:13 am

Neil,

The use of cameras at nests of a number of different bird species suggests that snakes may be one of the most important avian nest predators (Weatherhead and Bloun-Demers 2004). A camera study of bobwhite nest predators in northern Florida and southern Georgia showed 29 percent of nest depredations from 1999 to 2001 were caused by snakes (Staller et al. 2005).

Our studies in Missouri in the late 1980's and again in the 90's showed the black rat snake as the number one nest predator in Missouri. On a field tour at Tall Timbers back in 2009 or so, the current manager mentioned to us that Grey rat snakes were a major predator of quail nests on that area.

Red tails are the number one predator of black rat snakes in Missouri - they do keep the small mammal and snake populations down. Cooper's hawks, probably not so much.

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Re: Hawk problems

Post by Neil » Mon Mar 17, 2014 11:58 am

- probably not so much
?

There is no debate, the small raptors are the number one predator of quail.

Any other point is noise.

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Re: Hawk problems

Post by RoostersMom » Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:22 pm

The small raptors are probably not so much taking the larger snakes, which are top predators on the nests. I'm well aware that Cooper's and Sharp Shinned hawks are deadly predators on adult quail.

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Re: Hawk problems

Post by ozrider81 » Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:01 pm

wow your all getting into a fluster about raptors taking the pidgions, be greatful you can have and see raptors. Think we all need to be thinking with level heads and finding far better solution then shoot first policy.
We only have to look at the past to see what we have done to animal populations and species survival, how many species be it sub-species that have been made extinct or highly endangered by our action, just because they either were nuisence or highly sought for their furs meats etc.
Lets not make same mistakes or revert to the old ways.

not forget that we created and cause bird/animal population by how we manage the land, more land we clear for agriculture provides more feed for rodents grazing animals with provide better food for raptors and carnivores urban development can also contribute in the say way.
No i'm not animal liberations tossers but i still try to do the right thing when i can








Australian Wedgetail eagle was hunted by tossers wanting a eagle mounted in thier loungerooms, in the 80's-90's, we were lucky to protect this species and all raptors before they were hunted to near extinction. Wedge tails are still under pressure from poisoning and being hit by cars/trucks feeding on carrion.

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