working on steady question

big_fish · Post by **big_fish** » Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:06 pm

how many of you work on the dog being steady to flush and shot from day one of training? I have heard to just work on getting the dog steady at point and let him chase the birds after they flush for the first year but I have also heard don't let the dog learn any habits you will have to train out later. so what your opinion on the subject?
thanks.

Retiredbirddogman · Post by **Retiredbirddogman** » Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:39 pm

I will be interested in what people have to say. I am in the process of starting my first pup by having them point, but then not letting her chase on flush. I have always let them chase, when they were young, until I was ready to whao break them.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:12 pm

I think it really depends on the pup, and what you want out of it.

Hattrick · Post by **Hattrick** » Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:15 pm

I do. I don't allow chase. I have my pup stand birds flying away out of a launcher from day one, meaning 10-12 wks on till FF. If that's all they no it makes steadying them much easier at 9-10 months. I don't need to build drive they were born with that. I steady to release after shot an fall once i finish FF an have duck search in place. It much easier this way for me. I no my pups breedings well. I'm sure this will not work with dogs but does with these lines. Good luck read ur dog

SetterNut · Post by **SetterNut** » Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:39 pm

I don't worry about the dog chasing the first season at all. I expect them to let me walk out and flush the bird, but once I flush the bird, they are free to chase the first year or so.

Wildweeds · Post by **Wildweeds** » Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:57 pm

I'm with setternut and winchey, I am a firm believer in style suffering from mechanical handling,being forced to do something knocks style out that would otherwise be there through self teaching.That self teaching segment is being allowed to chase birds that will never be caught.First season is for the dog the rest are for you.

Hattrick · Post by **Hattrick** » Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:45 am

Here's is were you miss understand nothing is forced about it. Its more like helping them learn gently what's acceptable . Trust me style is vary high on my list just look at sum of my posts style is everything to me. I will stick to my guns on this the first year is the most important time to work with puppies, its like trying to starting to be parent to kid at 13 years old and do nothing prior to that. Good luck the road will be ruff.

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:01 am

I start standing still and then whoa in the kennel and training yard from the time they are wee pups, but they are encouraged to find birds in the field and do as they wish, knock, chase, catch, eat, whatever. The two come together at a year to 18 months old. Once they are staunch, they are steady to wing and shot. Backing, stop to flush then follow.

But during all this, it is most important they learn to find birds, that is where 80% of my time and energy is spent.

It does little good to point if they can't find them.

KCBrittfan · Post by **KCBrittfan** » Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:46 am

Steadiness from day one sends a consistent message, and consistency makes for smooth efficient training.

However, is your primary goal to train efficiently or to develop a bird finder?

Good genetics will lead a dog to develop some bird finding skills when steadiness is an expectation from day one. However, in my opinion, dogs trained in such a way rarely attain even a fraction of their potential as bird finders.

For me it is a risk vs. reward situation. I am willing to deal with the consequences of this particular inconsistent message in order to allow (or at least attempt to allow) a dog to develop its maximim bird finding skills. Some people are not willing to deal with those consequences, and that is fine for them. There is no right or wrong answer here as long as you are happy with your methods and your results.

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:30 am

How do you prevent an 8 month old dog from chasing wild birds?

bb560m · Post by **bb560m** » Fri Apr 12, 2013 10:44 am

Elkhunter wrote:How do you prevent an 8 month old dog from chasing wild birds?

Easy - break them at 7 mos

.

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:13 pm

bb560m wrote:
Elkhunter wrote:How do you prevent an 8 month old dog from chasing wild birds?
Easy - break them at 7 mos .

LOL, there is a guy out here that says he never lets his dogs chase. I was like "how do you get em on wild birds if you dont want em chasing"? No answer.

MillerClemsonHD · Post by **MillerClemsonHD** » Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:23 pm

I will post the same thing as I did in the other three similar threads in the past 2 weeks.

Neil and KCBrittfan are the ones you need to listen to.

A PUPPY needs time to develop, learn to go FIND birds before you break them. They have to learn how to do this on their own. Some early exposure to chase some pigeons. Then if you don't have wild birds use loose birds. If you have wild birds you might have to work harder for the bird contacts but you will get a better dog. The pointer guys have been taking derby's to the prairies for 100 years for a reason! The dog gets to go learn how to find birds and teach itself how to handle them. If you don't have wild birds then you need to know when to take a break from the bird work to prevent him catching a bunch of birds and start your yard work. You have to be able to read your dog and know when he is ready to go back to the bird work for breaking. You need to have a system you will follow to break your dog. They have to have a chance as a young dog to find birds, point them, knock them, chase them whatever they want to do.

You can take a dog and put the pressure on it from day one and never work it on wild birds, and never let it chase and get it broke young. Or you can develop a young dog let it learn how to find birds, use its brain, how to hunt, and when the time is right break it out. You just have to decide what you want out of the dog and how you want to do it.

MillerClemsonHD · Post by **MillerClemsonHD** » Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:24 pm

Elkhunter wrote:How do you prevent an 8 month old dog from chasing wild birds?

That's easy put them on a checkcord and only work birds that are in launchers until they are broke!! Doesn't matter if they can find birds only that they point them right!!

Johng918 · Post by **Johng918** » Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:56 pm

Don't jump on me for this is a honest question, what does finding a bird have to do with chasing? Can't you not do them both from the beginning? Take the chase out while your getting him steady from day 1?

MillerClemsonHD · Post by **MillerClemsonHD** » Fri Apr 12, 2013 1:18 pm

Johng918 wrote:Don't jump on me for this is a honest question, what does finding a bird have to do with chasing? Can't you not do them both from the beginning? Take the chase out while your getting him steady from day 1?

The only way to keep them from chasing is a checkcord which means you are leading them around and not letting them learn to hunt and find birds on their own. No matter how much you realize it you are in control and dictating to the dog how things are being done and not letting him figure it out. The natural instinct to point comes out when they realize chasing is worthless bc they can't catch the birds. If you don't let them learn it on their own you used pressure to force them to do it your way. The dog has no business being steady from day one, they are not mature enough to know what you are asking and you aren't accomplishing anything while doing it. The time will come to take away the chase, put him on a check cord and do controlled work to break him but it ain't on day 1.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:01 pm

I have seen some very accomplished trainers with some very good dogs that were never allowed to chase. I have also seen some dogs that would chase for the rest of their life if not stopped.
We start whoa training when the pup leaves his littermates and do fly away drills with pigeons at a early age so they don't get all jacked up over the sound of wings, at 8 to 10 months the pups are standing birds and are steady to wing. They pretty much point scent and don't need to chase to build point or prey drive. We don't use a check cord and most don't need a e-collar. Cj

Hattrick · Post by **Hattrick** » Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:09 pm

Johng918

that's what I'm talking about

Johng918 · Post by **Johng918** » Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:37 pm

I have always started early with fly away drills also, have never heard of it taking away from the dogs finding ability. I alway thought it was less pressure on a dog with high prey drive to take the chase out early.

SpinoneIllinois · Post by **SpinoneIllinois** » Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:40 pm

Chasing was, and still is, a big problem for my first dog. But with my new one, it's hardly a problem at all. The answer? I taught the second dog, through experience, that it's not a good idea to chase.
Before I even started planting birds for the new dog, I'd take her out for runs and carry along a bag of strong-flying pigeons. I'd occasionally pull one out of the bag, show it to the pup, then release it. If pup started to give chase, I'd pull out another bird and release it. Pup soon learned that it was pointless to chase an airborne bird to the next county. But it was a good idea to keep me in sight, because the boss has birds.
I think one of the problems with the first dog was that much of her early experience was on pen-raised quail and pheasant, which often landed after a low, slow flight of just 50 or 75 yards. A dog of course will want to chase after those.

MillerClemsonHD · Post by **MillerClemsonHD** » Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:21 pm

How do you introduce the gun if the dog never chases a bird?

Drills?? Are we going to football practice or is the goal to develop a bird dog?

Most dogs learn that chasing to the next county is pointless on their own. A few need help with that but they all are going to have to get the chase out of their system at some point!

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:45 pm

MillerClemsonHD wrote:How do you introduce the gun if the dog never chases a bird?

Drills?? Are we going to football practice or is the goal to develop a bird dog?

Most dogs learn that chasing to the next county is pointless on their own. A few need help with that but they all are going to have to get the chase out of their system at some point!

I throw a locked wing bird or a fresh killed bird. Have a helper shoot at a distance and send him to retrieve. we keep moving closer until I can throw the bird and shoot and send the dog to retrieve. Sometimes we shoot during the fly away drills. Three times and you have started a conditioned response. Cj

Maurice · Post by **Maurice** » Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:53 pm

I walk pups and young dogs in good cover, get them in birds and let them develop.. Trying to prevent the chase would drive me nuts and give me high BP probably. When the young dogs shows me they know how and where to hunt and they stay focused on finding birds even when birds are hard to find, then I will start putting manners on them. By then the young dog is ready for serious training. What is a pointing drill? I know I am old school in my thinking and what I wrote is only my opinion.

Mo

KCBrittfan · Post by **KCBrittfan** » Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:39 am

Nice discussion everyone.

Johng918 wrote:Don't jump on me for this is a honest question, what does finding a bird have to do with chasing? Can't you not do them both from the beginning? Take the chase out while your getting him steady from day 1?

John918 your questions aren't just honest they are very good ones.

Answer #1: Personal experience has led me to believe there must be a connection between bird chasing and bird finding skills in a pointing dog, even if I don't accurately understand the reasons. The best bird finders I've ever seen were allowed to chase birds when they were young puppies. More importantly, the professional and accomplished amature trainers I've talked to who were concerned about getting the most out of a pointing dog all let their young prospects chase birds. Note that not everyone is concerned with getting the most out of a dog. I am truly fine with that. There are a lot of people very happy with dogs that could have been better, and I'm happy for them. The success of our modern breeding programs have given us dogs that are pretty darn good bird finders even when they reach only 50% of their potential.

Answer #2: When a young pup is making his first bird finds, having him totally focused on the bird leads to better results. I'm just the guy standing in the background taking it all in and having a good time. Dogs have limited brain power. Puppies have even less. When pup first starts finding birds I want all of his brain power focused on trying to remember every detail about what happened before, during, and after the bird contact. The more pup remembers, the more likely he is to reproduce the results. The presence of steadiness training during these early experiences has to use up at least some of his brain power. Consequently, the fewer distractions (especially those caused by me) during the seek-find-chase-seek again- sequence; the better pup will learn and remember what led him to those wonderful birds.

Answer #3: Anytime a dog does what you want when he really wants to do something different there is pressure involved. The pressure may be subtle and you may be the most gentle trainer in history, but the pressure is still there. Any pressure in the pressence of birds can potentially take away from the dog's birdiness. Take away some birdiness in the early stages of pup's bird finding and he may never fully realize his potential. Good genetics makes this unlikely, but why take the chance. When it comess to bird finding, I prefer to error on the side of caution.

Keep in mind that any time you deal with living breathing creatures, you can almost always find exceptions to the rules. It doesn't surprise me when I hear about dogs who are excellent bird finders that were trained to be steady from day one. One such dog might even be the best bird finder the world has ever seen. Could they have been even better if they were allowed to chase as a young puppy? We will never know. Just because there are exceptions, doesn't mean the rule needs to be thrown away.

uthunter · Post by **uthunter** » Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:50 am

All great posts. I personally feel that by letting a young dog chase it helps build confidence. Like Maurice said, let them tell you when they are mature enough to handle pressure. I have a 4 year old Britt that I broke when she was just shy of 2. I now feel she was too young to handle it. Yes she's broke and steady but it has taken her a while now to get her run and style back. I also used a lot of pigeons with her (she was my first dog I'd broke) and I feel that has hurt her a bit. Now I have a 9 month pointer I started and sent her to get run on nothing but wild birds for a few months. I have been very happy with the reports Ive been getting. She's showing a ton of drive, style, and Independence. The first month she did nothing but rip birds and chase for a half mile, she has now learned she can't catch them and is starting be steady. I am not a pro and its only my opinion but the way I see it is you can break a dog faster if you make them stand from day 1, but I have been happier with the long term results of letting them teach themselves.

steveouk · Post by **steveouk** » Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:34 pm

I'm just starting to work with my dog on style so this is all interesting and great stuff

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:48 pm

I have seen this debated for many years and it always brings two things to mind when I see it. First is how do you teach your baby or small child what "HOT" is? Do you find you can tell them hot and they except it and never try to touch anything hot or does it seem they always have to test it for them selves before they really know or fully understand the meaning of hot? I have found dogs to be the same way, they need to learn a whole bunch of stuff on their own that we could teach them but they just need to learn it themselves. This is why I have always told people to take the pups to the field as often as possible and the most important thing while you are doing it is keep your mouth shut.

The second thing that always comes to mind is what is the best method to get people who are smarter than dogs, possibly, to touch wet paint? Pretty much the same as telling a young dog to never chase. I have found that almost without exception a dog like a human has to have a bad year. The pup that is great that first year will be a problem the next. and the one you think will never learn the first year will be your prize student the second. Great dogs have to learn on their own while good dogs can often be taught. We often judge them as being independent or robotic. Both are OK but different folks like different strokes. Decide what works for you and get it done.

One of the biggest turnoffs for me personally are the ads telling us how young their pup finished a MH title. Tells me to look some where else.

Ezzy

Wildweeds · Post by **Wildweeds** » Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:50 pm

Style is inherited IMO,Imposter style is the stuff that is trained,Ive gotten two dogs from the same line that appear incredibly stylish in pictures,after this second one I know its partially manmade on a barrell.I've got a couple of dogs here that have style to burn,I had a litter of pups with them,the pups have style to burn too.I got to get to town for a new cord for the computer to be able to download some more recent pics.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:57 am

IMO a check cord on a young dog does nothing positive for the dog and only makes the handler feel better. If you are running on wild birds pup may chase or may not, they're all different. I wouldn't worry much either way. There are other good ways to stop the chase and not hurt style or intensity.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:18 am

steveouk wrote:I'm just starting to work with my dog on style so this is all interesting and great stuff

Style is pretty much genetic. I don't know how you work on style. either they have it or they don't. Cj

millerms06 · Post by **millerms06** » Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:08 am

Neil wrote:I start standing still and then whoa in the kennel and training yard from the time they are wee pups, but they are encouraged to find birds in the field and do as they wish, knock, chase, catch, eat, whatever. The two come together at a year to 18 months old. Once they are staunch, they are steady to wing and shot. Backing, stop to flush then follow.

But during all this, it is most important they learn to find birds, that is where 80% of my time and energy is spent.

It does little good to point if they can't find them.

I like what you have said Neil and I have done this similar thing with low pressure on the dog. I am sure low pressure might be created other ways, but I like how my dog's progression is by following the same path Neil describes. My question is with your first phrase: do you begin this process first with food? I haven't heard anyone say it yet. To me the least amount of pressure would be with food as they are interacting with this object first in a consistent pattern over anything else.

ezzy333 wrote:
One of the biggest turnoffs for me personally are the ads telling us how young their pup finished a MH title. Tells me to look some where else.

Ezzy

I am skeptic with this too, but I just want to know some of the ages you have heard that cause your skepticism?

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:50 am

I build prey drive by letting them chase the first year. Away from birds I begin the stand still process along with come to me and go with me. (yard work). I want my pups to be birds crazy when I start the steady on birds process. Once I have the pup transfered from the whoa post to the ecollar I dry run the pup and bring them to a gradual stop with low stimulation. Once they have that figured out, I work on "Stop to Flush" and finally on "Steady to Wing and Shot".

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:03 am

With the timing right it would be possible, I suppose to have a MH at 7 months they can't run until Six months and would have to pass 6 masters in the month after turning six months I have seen two under Eight months they were more robots than bird dogs. Cj

maximus1 · Post by **maximus1** » Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:37 pm

I agree with ezzy. Let the dog chase. I try to run pups on wild birds if possible and let them go. Once pups start breaking off chasing and are collar conditioned I start tapping button at low level until they stop. In no time they start stopping to flush with very little pressure. Like a child learning what hot means. Pup basically guit on his own figuring he can't catch birds and I think they start holding point and half way steady themselves up naturally. Just my opinion and what's worked for me. Very little pressure applied or needed. Current dog was holding point on wild birds at nice distance by 10 months on his own.

maximus1 · Post by **maximus1** » Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:51 pm

I sbould add to my previous post that I use released quail in light cover to start pups on birds and once they start catching the birds I never run them on released birds again until steady. I will drive 70-80 miles sometimes just to run them on wild birds. It's worth it to me. Wild birds are the best thing for pups and brings the best out in them.

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:06 pm

maximus1 wrote:I sbould add to my previous post that I use released quail in light cover to start pups on birds and once they start catching the birds I never run them on released birds again until steady. I will drive 70-80 miles sometimes just to run them on wild birds. It's worth it to me. Wild birds are the best thing for pups and brings the best out in them.

That is why a lot of us use homing pigeons with launchers...not the perfect answer but it works when you don't have plentiful game birds around.

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:39 pm

8 month old MH's??? WOW

Hattrick · Post by **Hattrick** » Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:39 am

8 mth old MH is only impressive if they get out an rip it up. Titles don't mean anything inless they are getting It done. This is coming from a guy that tests alot. All FT, MH an VCs are not created equal.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:28 am

Hattrick wrote:8 mth old MH is only impressive if they get out an rip it up. Titles don't mean anything inless they are getting It done. This is coming from a guy that tests alot. All FT, MH an VCs are not created equal.

Neither dog was impressive except for it's age. As mentioned before they were more like robots than bird dogs. It was definitely a gimmick and too much pressure. This is also from somebody who tests a lot.
For sure the easiest test dogs are not necessarily the best bird dogs. I have a 9 month old male pup that with luck would pass a MH. (Coop, this is my Sunny dog ,thanks) He has not been allowed to chase and was steady to wing,shot and fall from day one. I have 2 year old male who still wants to chase everything that flies, including airplanes. He don't want to catch the airplane and he knows he can't, He just likes to chase. I wish I would have put the smack down on that immediately. Does a dog chase cars because he wants to catch them or because they just like to chase. Dogs are different some may need the chase and some for sure don't
Thanks Cj

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:26 am

I know for a fact that the current National Champion was trained with treats and was allowed to chase, I was there for part of it, saw it with my own eyes. Low pressure correction, with lots of reward works for all dogs.

millerms06 · Post by **millerms06** » Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:35 am

Neil wrote:I know for a fact that the current National Champion was trained with treats and was allowed to chase, I was there for part of it, saw it with my own eyes. Low pressure correction, with lots of reward works for all dogs.

Thanks for mentioning this Neil.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:55 am

I am in the "let 'em chase" camp. I don't use barrels or e-collars and very seldom use check cords but the wild birds my pup finds, bumped up or not, do the teaching. My pups end up steady because they know they cannot catch an unshot bird. The number of chases needed and the time span needed to reach this end product varies greatly from pup to pup but they all end up as non-chasers and I hardly have to do a thing except take the pups to where there is wild game to find.

Bill T.

MillerClemsonHD · Post by **MillerClemsonHD** » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:39 pm

Mo has already given his input. How about the input from another highly qualified individual on developing puppies.

I did not hear anything about launchers, check cords, or restraining puppies in this interview, but maybe that was just me.

http://strideaway.com/developing-puppie ... -ike-todd/

Neil · Post by **Neil** » Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:05 pm

MillerClemsonHD wrote:Mo has already given his input. How about the input from another highly qualified individual on developing puppies.

I did not hear anything about launchers, check cords, or restraining puppies in this interview, but maybe that was just me.

http://strideaway.com/developing-puppie ... -ike-todd/

I use the Buddy Stick, the barrel, and e-collar.

MillerClemsonHD · Post by **MillerClemsonHD** » Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:05 pm

Neil wrote:
MillerClemsonHD wrote:Mo has already given his input. How about the input from another highly qualified individual on developing puppies.

I did not hear anything about launchers, check cords, or restraining puppies in this interview, but maybe that was just me.

http://strideaway.com/developing-puppie ... -ike-todd/
I use the Buddy Stick, the barrel, and e-collar.

Neil I'm not talking about breaking dogs bc I use a check cord and use it a lot. I believe launchers have a specific purpose in training. Also a firm believer in the ecollar and use a barrel occasionally, the key is this post was started about a 7mo old puppy that needed to be developed not broke. Not to mention the best of the best let puppies chase birds and don't try to force the. To act like young dogs as puppies. That's the whole point. If he posted and said my 2 yr old is shagging every bird then the conversation is approached completely differently.

DoubleBarrel GunDogs · Post by **DoubleBarrel GunDogs** » Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:27 pm

Neil wrote:I know for a fact that the current National Champion was trained with treats and was allowed to chase, I was there for part of it, saw it with my own eyes. Low pressure correction, with lots of reward works for all dogs.

There is no doubt that positive reinforcement training builds style. Yes, the pup needs good genetics, but style is not necessarily purely inherant. It's also apparent that untimely pressure will remove style.

Let a pup build prey drive, learn to hunt birds and reveal it's full potential. Do introductory field work with duct tape over your mouth if necessary. Keep the yard work seperate from field work until the yard work is complete. Do this and everything will eventually merge in the field.

Nate

GrayDawg · Post by **GrayDawg** » Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:57 pm

Winchey wrote:I think it really depends on the pup, and what you want out of it.

+1

Some dogs need the fire stoked before being broke, others absolutely don't. I started with pointing dogs in 1993 with Weimaraners. Since then, I've owned GSP's and Pointers (currently own one GSP and one Pointer). Every dog's training progression was different. That said, there is no way i'd allow my 9 month old Pointer to chase birds in a controlled training session. He needs that like I need a third testicle.

Rob

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:09 pm

Provided a young dog is stable and trainable, I have never seen a young dog that could not be steadied to WSF after a first season. A first season should be for developing desire, search and experience in various terrain, etc. How do you tell what you have genetically if you are controlling from it from the git go. Break the gun and walk....can't catch wild birds...kill birds when you can walk and flush a bird. The only caveat is if you have a cruncher or a dog that plays keep away with game.

Then you just walk...forget the shooting....FF is next.

Grange · Post by **Grange** » Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:54 pm

I never let my dog chase pen birds, but let her chase wild birds her first hunting season. Once I saw her start to hesitate chasing the wild birds I started the breaking process.